[04:53] quit [18:44] Greetings...anyone here yet? [18:48] Hi! [18:49] Hey Sylvie! [18:54] mornin' (or afternoon..or evening), Hannie [18:55] hey, schlopo how are you doing? [18:55] Good evening, Hannie! [18:55] hi everyone [18:55] Very well. Good to see a few people arrive early...it means I did the UTC time conversion correctly! [18:55] let's hope the others are right on time :) [18:57] schlopo, you can have the Ubuntu clock display UTC time along with your local time [18:59] shhhh....I'm on Windows8, not Ubuntu. :) [19:00] You're joking... [19:00] I'm not. I run all Ubuntu variants in a virtual machine. Must have a Windows product for my financing software. [19:01] * schlopo guesses I could do the reverse...Ubuntu as my main system and run W8 in a virtual machine. [19:01] Don't you use multi-boot? [19:01] I have Windows on one hardrive, ubuntu on another [19:01] Works fine [19:02] Food for thought for sure. [19:02] I'm glad I don't have windows8 ;-) [19:02] As long as you do not have Windows 8 [19:02] Hey, guys. Sorry I'm late. [19:03] Wait until you buy your next computer :( [19:03] Hi Kevin! [19:03] The way software is heading, it's all going to be in the cloud soon (a la Adobe and Photoshop).... [19:03] ...just need a browser and that's it. [19:03] hi godbyk [19:03] Hey Kevin! [19:03] I buy computers without OS [19:03] ...we'll wait a few more minutes, then get started. [19:04] I, personally, need to hold to the 1hr limit do to other obligations today. [19:04] Yes, I am expecting Jim to join too [19:04] Hi at all [19:04] Hi All! [19:04] hi CarstenG [19:05] CG's in the house....good to see you. [19:05] schlopo, we should be finished before 20:00 UTC [19:05] hi schlopo :-) [19:06] ...ok, let's get going...give me a few seconds to get meetingology set up. [19:06] #startmeeting [19:06] Meeting started Sat Aug 24 19:07:12 2013 UTC. The chair is schlopo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [19:06] Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired [19:07] #chair schlopo [19:07] Current chairs: schlopo [19:07] #meetingtopic Authors and Editions meeting #2 for Ubuntu 13.10 [19:07] Alright, we're live. Please announce for the purposes of minutes and attendance. [19:08] Heree [19:08] I'm present ;) [19:08] here [19:08] here! [19:08] I'm here. [19:09] #topic Upcoming Schedule/Due Dates [19:09] Looks like September 19th, 2013 is our next due date. Any issues with this date? Concerns? [19:10] Well, not all chapters have authors, but we won't get any before sept 19th I guess [19:10] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApS28NMLnYJXdEdGQjRtUWtaOUZxREVzUldSOU5kc2c#gid=0 [19:10] I personally am not too concerned about it [19:11] Raring and Saucy do not differ that much [19:11] there are a few holes in the desktop chapter, but if you're not concerned, I'm not either. [19:11] I think we have to go through the chapters without authors to see if they need some changes [19:12] I see that a column has been added to the spreadsheet indicating the status of a section from the author's perspective. Good call. [19:12] Yes, I did that [19:12] I want to be able to see if an author has finished [19:13] Very helpful. I'll update my sections' status (stati? statum?) by tomorrow evening. [19:13] And editors status too, but that comes later [19:13] hannie: Good idea. That'll work well with our new \status command. [19:13] hannie: Is it useful, to say »finished« before the feature Freeze? [19:13] hannie: I'll see if I can generate a list of those statuses for you this weekend. [19:13] CarstenG, yes, there could still be changes, but not mayor ones [19:14] ok [19:14] godbyk: assuming others have been using it (guess retrieving these statuses from the lastest rev will answer that question) [19:14] It is up to the author to bring in last changes [19:15] schlopo: True. From watching the commits it looks like a lot of people have been updating them. [19:15] schlopo: But we also have the date they were updated, so we will know when they haven't been keeping up to date. [19:15] godbyk: Great! [19:16] Any other input/concerns regarding upcoming due dates? [19:17] Well, like I said before, the line between authoring and editing becomes very thin. Some proofreading and editing has been done already [19:17] Yea, it's going to definitely blend, especially since we've improved on our author<->editor connections this iteration. [19:18] I think Kevin pulling a status report (and maybe emailing it to the list?) will be helpful in seeing who has yet to touch their section. [19:18] ...and also which authors-editors are way ahead of the game. [19:18] schlopo, has thomas stopped contributing completely, or will he continue doing wine? [19:19] Not sure about thomas... [19:19] got an email from him saying he wanted to drop out of authoring, but still wanted to write a Wine section? [19:19] Ok. The wine section does not need to be changed because it has nothing to do with saucy anyway [19:19] Almost sounds like he wants to do that exclusive to the manual. [19:20] I think Thomas is interested in creating an entire manual just for Wine. [19:20] I removed him from his assigned sections and assigned myself to them. [19:20] I'm not sure if he's still going to work on the Wine section in our manual or not. [19:20] godbyk: I'll take a look at it. [19:20] yes, so I understand. But I do not know if he still maintains our wine section [19:21] Wine is under Advanced Topics. I'll own it. [19:21] ok, so that is solved then [19:22] #action schlopo to verify contents of Wine section with the departure of Thomas [19:22] ACTION: schlopo to verify contents of Wine section with the departure of Thomas [19:22] #topic Communication with authors [19:22] CarstenG, can we already start making screenshots? [19:23] schlopo, sorry, that was not on the agenda... [19:23] hannie: Well, I would not before UI freeze on 19th September [19:24] ok [19:24] No worries... :) [19:24] Re: author communication, I intend to send out communication to all authors reminding them of the upcoming due dates. Again, will be helpful to have Kevin's data pulled from section statuses. [19:24] I'm going to target (with a direct email) those who've not shown any activity. [19:24] schlopo: I'll get that to you this weekend. [19:25] ...the intent being to not hit the September 19th deadline with sections undone. [19:25] godbyk: thanks... [19:25] #action godbyk to prove results of section statuses to Ubuntu Manual coordinators [19:25] ACTION: godbyk to prove results of section statuses to Ubuntu Manual coordinators [19:26] #action schlopo to communicate deadline through mailing list to all authors, and target those who've shown no activity in their sections. [19:26] ACTION: schlopo to communicate deadline through mailing list to all authors, and target those who've shown no activity in their sections. [19:27] #topic Open Q & A [19:27] thanks in advance for the list, godbyk [19:27] hannie: No problem. That's what the \status command is for. :) [19:27] Alright...the floor's open...any issues/concerns we can tackle? [19:28] schlopo, do you mind if I move the email addresses from the spreadsheet to a separate sheet? [19:29] I already did, but I left yours where they were [19:29] hannie: sure. [19:29] And do we need permission to put somebody's address on the sheet? [19:30] I would avoid putting their addresses in the sheet since it's public. [19:30] If it were restricted to fewer people, I wouldn't have a problem with it, though. [19:30] But they are there already, should we remove them and publish them in a sheet that is not public? [19:30] btw, why do we have the email addresses there? We all are at LP and on the Mailinglist. [19:31] So you want me to remove them completely? [19:31] CarstenG: The mailing list can get noisy. [19:32] CarstenG: I think they were just added there out of convenience. It makes it easy to copy and paste when you need to email a particular chapter's author or all the authors. [19:32] Well, if someone wants to contact someone else, he find the email address on LP or on the list (if that one has already written to the list) [19:32] CarstenG, you need to know a person's LP name [19:33] which is often a nick [19:33] Yea, let's just put the LP username. They can take this name to LP and find the address. A few extra steps is all. [19:33] This you see in the commit messages on bzr :-) [19:33] CarstenG: Unless you want to email someone who hasn't been committing. ;-) [19:34] So we should add the LP names to the spreadsheet and remove the email addresses? [19:34] godbyk: Yes, you are right. :-) But do we have authors, who did not yet made a bzr commit? [19:34] hannie: Yes [19:34] hannie: Yes, this sound better to me :-) [19:34] Ok, I can do it if you like [19:35] Are you willing to do this, hannie? [19:35] ok [19:35] I think that's a good solution. [19:35] It makes it more difficult for spammers to harvest the email addresses. [19:35] #action hannie to remove author/editor email addresses from the shared spreadsheet and replace with LaunchPad usernames/nicks [19:35] ACTION: hannie to remove author/editor email addresses from the shared spreadsheet and replace with LaunchPad usernames/nicks [19:36] btw, can someone find the google document without having the specific link? [19:36] that's a good question. I think not. [19:37] Share options: everone who has the link... [19:37] The link to the spreadsheet is in the NOTES section of the ubuntu-manual wiki, so, in terms of availability, it's easy to find. [19:37] is allowed to make changes to the spreadsheet [19:37] Well, I have it organized in my Ubuntu Manual folder on Google Drive. [19:38] But we can also add a link to the style guide if it'd be helpful. [19:38] godbyk: ...also, in the NOTES section on the ubuntu-manual wiki [19:39] I've added quite a bit information to this section as I (personally) was getting tired of filtering through old emails for how-tos, style guides, installation/customization instructions, etc. [19:39] Is it wise to make the link public (put it on the wiki)? [19:39] I'm slowly trying to add all this info to the style guide so it can be the first place to check. [19:40] When we only spread it via our mailing list it will be available only to members of UMP [19:40] The way I see it, if it's emailed (in a list or not), it's public. [19:40] schlopo: Agreed. The mailing list has public archives. [19:40] The mailing list is only for members [19:41] godbyk: I DEFINITELY would like to consolidate this information...maybe make a manual for the manual ?! [19:41] schlopo: Yeah, that's essentially what the style guide is. [19:41] hannie: the list is for members, but the archive is public [19:41] ah, yes, public archives. You are right. [19:42] Would it be better to change the spreadsheet's share options so only members can change it? [19:43] hannie: this doesn't solve the "privacy" concern, but it does prevent someone from going in and wiping away all the data. [19:44] ...but then, it turns into a management concern (adding / removing members) [19:44] I am more concerned about the privacy then the risk of someone deleting the contents. I have a copy on my pc [19:44] *than [19:45] hannie: true [19:45] btw, why do we have this informations on a google shreadsheet? We also can do it on the wiki, or? [19:45] The wiki needs a lot of manual formatting [19:45] spreadsheet... [19:45] The spreadsheet is much easier to use [19:46] hannie, are you planning to call an editor's meeting in the future? Is there a need to rally your base in this regard? [19:46] Well, I am not a meeting tiger :) [19:46] I'd suggest having an editors meeting closer to the authoring deadline. [19:46] * schlopo isn't either [19:46] Just to make sure we didn't lose any editors and that they're ready to start editing. [19:46] If not necessary, I will not plan one. I prefer to use our ml [19:47] I do send editors a pm [19:47] hannie: Good thinking. [19:47] And I try to keep in touch by email [19:48] But like with authors, there will be chapters without editors too [19:49] there are not too many gaps though. I am quite happy with the editors we have right now [19:50] * schlopo notes we have 10 minutes left. [19:51] I want to ask authors to reduce the number of marginnotes (if you all agree, that is) [19:51] * schlopo wonders if Sylvie dropped off the face of the IRC map. [19:51] YES! [19:51] ABSOLUTELY! [19:51] We have already discussed it in the past. I prefer to see text on the page itself [19:51] THANK YOU! [19:52] * schlopo is excited at this suggestion (in case there be any doubt) [19:52] I agree with that sentiment. [19:52] The margin notes should be for optional material only. Short asides. [19:52] They especially shouldn't be lengthy paragraphs. [19:52] ...and also screenshots in the marginnotes! I think this is a bad idea. [19:52] hannie: You are right. It is also less work to move the marginnotes in the translations to the right place. [19:52] schlopo, shall I send an email to our ml about this? [19:53] marginnotes should extend a concept...not explain a new one. Many notes I've come across are paragraphs in and of themselves. [19:53] (Aside from the style issue, I usually have to finesse the position of the margin notes a bit before publication. So fewer margin notes would mean less work for me. :-)) [19:53] godbyk: You're welcome! [19:53] godbyk: Yes, this point I mean :-) [19:53] So we agree: the less marginnotes the better [19:53] As far as screenshots in the margins... the only screenshots that should be in the margin are ones that are naturally small enough to fit there. [19:54] cqfd93, where are you? Hiding somewhere? [19:54] hannie: yes, if you'd do that, I believe the UMP world would be in harmony. [19:54] (Otherwise it looks awkward to have a tiny screenshot surrounded by inches of white space.) [19:54] yes, programm icons are IMHO ok in marginnotes. [19:54] I'm here, reading :-) [19:54] CarstenG: alright...I've give in on this one! [19:54] cqfd93: Good! :) [19:54] cqfd93, sorry for not asking you too about the screenshots [19:55] I just don't have much to say! [19:55] np [19:55] No translation questions? [19:55] I agree we have to wait until the UI freeze [19:55] good [19:55] #action hannie to send an email to the mailing list about reducing the number of margin notes and avoiding screenshots (except icons where necessary). [19:55] ACTION: hannie to send an email to the mailing list about reducing the number of margin notes and avoiding screenshots (except icons where necessary). [19:56] small screenshots like menus are ok in marginnotes [19:57] I think we need to start now (on a non LTS release) to whittle down the marginnotes, so that the upcoming LTS release yields a much cleaner manual. [19:57] During the final phase we will go through the whole document to see if we can minimise margin notes (chapters without author/editor) [19:58] Is it minimise in US and minimize in GB? [19:58] hannie: Yes. With a Z in the US. [19:58] thanks [19:58] Center vs Centre [19:58] Utilise vs Utilize [19:58] oy vey! [19:59] Hooked on Phonics worked for us! ;-) [19:59] I should stick to the agenda, I am a bit naughty [19:59] Btw, speaking of translations, you guys are filling up my bookshelf pretty quickly: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5067756/IMG_20130824_145634.jpg [20:00] WOW! That looks pretty impressive [20:00] Ya' know, Kevin, THAT is just a beautiful picture! [20:00] A lot of volunteer person-hours represented there. [20:00] wow! [20:00] godbyk: Very nice. :-) [20:00] A true testament to a geographically diverse community coming together to accomplish a task. [20:00] And those are just from the past year. I don't have back copies of all the previous manuals. [20:00] Would be good for the website :-) [20:01] CarstenG: +1 [20:01] I'll try to take a better photo without the glare of the flash sometime. [20:01] godbyk: And did you read all the books? ;-) [20:01] ok, and put it on the website [20:02] Does anyone think it'd be worth it to move the older versions of the manual from lulu.com to createspace.com/amazon.com? [20:02] Or should we just leave them there? [20:02] godbyk: I don't see the French version for 12.10... [20:02] I haven't checked, but I doubt that many people are buying the older versions. [20:02] cqfd93: Yeah, I missed that one. I'll have to order it next. :-) [20:02] ;-) [20:03] Alright...on this VERY motivating note (thanks to our fearless leader)...are there any other issues? [20:03] I would not move them to createspace, except of course 12.04 [20:04] hannie: I think all the 12.04 are on CreateSpace except for the English edition. I'll double-check. [20:04] excellent [20:05] Ok...so this will be the last author's meeting I'll chair. I'll punt now to hannie to coordinate any editor communication (which I, too, will join). [20:05] schlopo: Thanks for your help with coordinating the authors. [20:05] Thanks for handing it over to me, schlopo ;) [20:05] Thanks for being here! I'll post the logs of this meeting to the wiki and tackle most (if not all) my action items by Sunday evening. [20:06] godbyk: My please. [20:06] hannie: sure thing. [20:06] godbyk: *pleasure. [20:06] godbyk, +1, thanks schlopo for all you do as authors coordinator [20:06] #endmeeting [20:06] Meeting ended Sat Aug 24 20:06:47 2013 UTC. [20:06] Minutes (wiki): http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-08-24-19.07.moin.txt [20:06] Minutes (html): http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-08-24-19.07.html [20:07] Bye everyone! Have a great weekend. [20:07] See you later, schlopo. [20:07] Bye schlopo! [20:08] bye all [20:08] bye all [20:08] by all!