[02:14] <square-r00t> LPI is a joke, btw
[02:14] <square-r00t> unless you're trying to apply for a company that specifically mentions it, it's not worth it :P
[10:04] <rmg51> Morning
[10:06] <JonathanD> Morning.
[12:07] <ChinnoDog> Morning
[12:13] <teddy-dbear> Morning peoples, dogs, turkeys and everything else
[12:57]  * ChinnoDog sips some tea
[15:16]  * InHisName mumbles "Morning" once again
[15:31]  * square-r00t drinks pint of whiskey
[15:31] <square-r00t> ungh.
[15:31] <square-r00t> so it is.
[18:07] <wyattderp> Anyone in here know how to make a VM copy of an OS so if I wanted to make a standard development environment I could load it into a flashdrive and call it a day after installing?
[18:23] <jedijf> make it - copy the folder with vmdk's (or whatever) to usb - use that usb anywhere
[18:23] <jedijf> it will ask - did you move or copy - if not sure choose x - choose x
[18:46] <MutantTurkey> wyattderp: waddu
[18:47] <wyattderp> Ahh alright, its just things are getting kinda heavy with the business I would like to keep a dev environment on hand for reloading if need be.
[18:49] <jedijf> you could make it - snapshot it - and revert when necessary too
[18:49] <jedijf> but having a clean somewhere (usb etc) is always good
[19:48] <MutantTurkey> god damn i hate suse
[19:48] <MutantTurkey> i upgrade packages and everything goes to hell
[19:48] <MutantTurkey> i mean now i need to hard reboot my servers, which my users were using
[19:48] <MutantTurkey> all because i needed to upgrade python
[20:01] <waltman> step 1: don't upgrade packages in the middle of the day when users are using them?
[20:15] <square-r00t> +1
[20:16] <MutantTurkey> step 1: don't use opensuse
[20:16] <MutantTurkey> step 2: don't wait 2 years to upgrade packages then complain when it's out of date
[20:16] <jthan> Stop blaming suse for your problems :-p
[20:16] <MutantTurkey> step 3: allow your only computer science person to install a sensible distribution
[20:17] <MutantTurkey> step 4: don't work on weekends or at night, since you value your own time. If your boss wants an upgrade, tell them you fcan only do it during the day 9-5
[20:17] <ProfessorKaos64> Only OpenSuSe is used by the enterprise enough
[20:26] <MutantTurkey> jthan: but sure, sacrifice your free time to do upgrades...
[20:27] <MutantTurkey> you too waltman
[20:57] <jthan> I do upgrades all the time.
[20:57] <jthan> screen emerge -uDNva world
[20:57]  * jthan falls asleep 
[20:57] <jthan> Wake up, done.
[20:57] <MutantTurkey> wonderful!
[21:00] <MutantTurkey> :q
[21:12] <square-r00t> ProfessorKaos64: not sure if trolling or not.
[21:12] <square-r00t> MutantTurkey: part of being an admin is you work on off-hours for rollouts, period
[21:15] <MutantTurkey> no
[21:15] <MutantTurkey> i mean maybe for y'all. If I was a full time sys-admin maybe
[21:16] <square-r00t> that's how you get to be full-time
[21:16] <MutantTurkey> no this position will never be full time
[21:16] <MutantTurkey> sysadmin is really part of the greater job of helping the users with programming
[21:18] <square-r00t> that's....
[21:18] <square-r00t> that's exactly part of the sysadm role. internal support.
[21:19] <MutantTurkey> ?
[21:19] <MutantTurkey> my job is programming, I happen to sys-admin on the side as a resault
[21:19] <square-r00t> but it doesn't matter if this position will be full time or not. you won't get hired as a sysadmin if you don't act like one. if you can put on your resume "Company X, Jr. SysAdmin, part-time, was on-call" instead of "Company X, Jr. SysAdmin, part-time" then that's a lot better
[21:19] <square-r00t> oh sweet papayas have mercy
[21:20] <MutantTurkey> "Company X, Programmer"
[21:20] <square-r00t> devs shouldn't have root, generally speaking, though.
[21:20] <MutantTurkey> lol
[21:20] <MutantTurkey> ok
[21:20] <square-r00t> that's.. really not a power thing or me saying y'all are stupid or something. you just don't think.
[21:21] <square-r00t> "what do you mean 'production' AND 'development' servers? they're the same thing, aren't they?"
[21:21] <square-r00t> "it wasn't working so i just chmod'd it to 777"
[21:21] <MutantTurkey> okay there's a difference between idiots and non-idiots
[21:21] <square-r00t> "sudo is stupid. i'm just going to keep a root shell open."
[21:22] <square-r00t> right, there is- but generally, admins are idiots when it comes to coding, and devs are idiots when it comes to admining
[21:22] <MutantTurkey> i aim to please both parties
[21:23] <square-r00t> i can count on one hand the people i've seen be competent- not even good, competent- at both.
[21:24] <square-r00t> you'll either mess one side up, or you'll get both sides pissed off
[21:24] <MutantTurkey> welcome to earth?
[21:24] <square-r00t> right, that's my point. the reality is you're either an admin or a dev. sliding scale, sure, but at some point it quantifies
[21:24] <MutantTurkey> yeah
[21:25] <MutantTurkey> I make decisions as a sysadmin to benefit my programming needs
[21:25] <square-r00t> which is a horrible sysadmin.
[21:25] <MutantTurkey> like running things more bleeding edge then need be to get features i want
[21:25] <MutantTurkey> why? we are all programmers who need cutting edge things, so... no point using red hat 1.0
[21:25] <MutantTurkey> that's the only 'bad' thing i do
[21:25] <square-r00t> yeah. you should be backporting code to run on *stable and tested versions* of platforms.
[21:25] <MutantTurkey> no
[21:25] <square-r00t> i.e. SECURE.
[21:25] <MutantTurkey> I.E backporting hundred of thousands of lines of code?
[21:26] <square-r00t> yep. that's why you have a development and production server
[21:26] <MutantTurkey> we don't have that manpower, nor is security  even a remote want for us
[21:26] <square-r00t> lol
[21:26] <square-r00t> "we don't want security"?
[21:26] <square-r00t> cool, let me get you my pubkey so you can add it to root's auth'd keys then
[21:26] <MutantTurkey> we want 'security until prevents us from getting what we want done"
[21:26] <square-r00t> which isn't security.
[21:27] <square-r00t> that's the *exact* mentality of the coder that 777's stuff because "it wasn't working"
[21:27] <MutantTurkey> i am not giving out our passwords, or allowing for SQL injections in php code we have, but I am also not spending all day backporting code
[21:27] <MutantTurkey> ok i really don't see how chmod 777 would ever solve any problem...
[21:27] <square-r00t> no, instead you're upgrading a ton of production machines in the middle of the day for untested software patches.
[21:28] <MutantTurkey> production machines?
[21:28] <square-r00t> 15:48:34 < MutantTurkey> i mean now i need to hard reboot my servers, which my users were using
[21:28] <square-r00t> =
[21:28] <square-r00t> production
[21:28] <MutantTurkey> i guess
[21:28] <MutantTurkey> it's just a node on our compute pool
[21:28] <MutantTurkey> the jobs are automatically re-routed
[21:28] <square-r00t> doesn't make my point any less valid, does it?
[21:29] <MutantTurkey> yeah it does
[21:29] <MutantTurkey> because it went offline seamelessly
[21:29] <square-r00t> so you let users know of this maintenance?
[21:29] <square-r00t> in advance?
[21:29] <MutantTurkey> yeah 20 minutes
[21:29] <MutantTurkey> :p
[21:29] <square-r00t> twenty minutes.
[21:29] <MutantTurkey> dude you don't understand the userbase here
[21:30] <MutantTurkey> i walked around the lab and said "ok everyone are we all good to drop this offline for a few minutes"
[21:30] <square-r00t> enlighten me.
[21:30] <MutantTurkey> got some nods
[21:30] <MutantTurkey> and that was that
[21:30] <square-r00t> that isn't notice of maintenance.
[21:30] <MutantTurkey> maybe not for you, but for us it's entirely fine
[21:30] <MutantTurkey> because my users can't do anything without these upgraded packages anyway
[21:33] <square-r00t> http://pastebin.com/zu9epey8 = maint notice
[21:34] <square-r00t> because just walking into a room and saying "HEY IS EVERYONE COOL IF I SHUT THIS OFF?" tells them nothing
[21:34] <MutantTurkey> why?
[21:34] <square-r00t> what happens to those that are in the zone? headphones on?
[21:34] <MutantTurkey> yes and what happens if they don't check their email?
[21:34] <square-r00t> you mentioned a few nods- how can you know, with a *written record* (CYA), that you told them?
[21:35] <square-r00t> that's their liability then. :) because now, you have *proof* you told them.
[21:35] <MutantTurkey> or do you get each person to swear an oath with their blood?
[21:35] <square-r00t> ^ see above.
[21:35] <MutantTurkey> that's true, and in a more formal sysadmin position i would aproach ithat that way
[21:35] <square-r00t> you work at a uni, right?
[21:35] <MutantTurkey> yeah
[21:35] <square-r00t> yeah.
[21:36] <square-r00t> also, unless it's an emergency, 24-48hrs in advance at least is the recommended maint notice time
[21:37] <square-r00t> software should never ever be upgraded willy-nilly
[21:37] <MutantTurkey> well it hadn't been upgraded since it was installed
[21:37] <square-r00t> doesn't matter
[21:37] <MutantTurkey> so yeah I'd like to start performing regular updates
[21:37] <square-r00t> not during production hours.
[21:37] <square-r00t> strict no-no
[21:37] <MutantTurkey> but 24-48 puts my user at least until wednesday to get any work done
[21:37] <square-r00t> ....
[21:37] <square-r00t> you don't leave a 24-48 window open
[21:38] <MutantTurkey> well if I give them 48 hours notice
[21:38] <square-r00t> you let them know 24-49 hours in advance
[21:38] <square-r00t> i'm saying you should have send the email friday at the latest. :P
[21:38] <MutantTurkey> user comes to me saying: can you install this package: I say : yes but wait 2 days?
[21:38] <MutantTurkey> he just asked me today!
[21:38] <square-r00t> no, you say "why?"
[21:38] <MutantTurkey> I know why
[21:39] <MutantTurkey> because scientific python tools are useful for him
[21:39] <MutantTurkey> and i want him to be able to use and discover as many as possible instead of saying no first and then yes later
[21:39] <square-r00t> and it was *absolutely* such an emergency that you had to bring a node down to do it today during production?
[21:39] <MutantTurkey> no it wasn't an emergency at all