[02:54] <dolphin-man> I'm here
[02:54] <dolphin-man> to appeal a ban
[04:43] <Flannel> hi dolphin-man.  Still around?
[04:43] <dolphin-man> HI Flannel
[04:43] <dolphin-man> Yes
[04:44] <Flannel> dolphin-man: Hi.  What's the issue you'd like to resolve?
[04:45] <dolphin-man> Oh,, it seems I have been banned for life from #ubuntu-offtopic
[04:46] <Flannel> dolphin-man: Is that so?  Who told you that?
[04:46] <dolphin-man> LjL-Alps and chu
[04:47] <Flannel> dolphin-man: They told you that you were banned for life?
[04:47] <dolphin-man> olphin-man> how long is my ban
 Permanent now.
[04:51] <Flannel> dolphin-man: Alright.  Well, bans are rarely permanent in #ubuntu channels.  So lets see where we stand with this one.
[04:51] <Flannel> dolphin-man: Can you save me the trouble of re-reading the backscroll and explain why you were banned?
[04:52] <dolphin-man> Flannel I'll show you, I wont paste a wall of text
[04:52] <Flannel> dolphin-man: I'd rather you tell me.
 chu, sounds subjective as fuck
 !language | dolphin-man
 dolphin-man: Please watch your language and topic to help keep this channel family-friendly, polite, and professional.
 !language | phunyguy
 dolphin-man: Please don't.
[04:53] <dolphin-man> * LjL-Alps sets ban on *!*@S0106602ad0756c1c.ok.shawcable.net
[04:53] <dolphin-man> that's it
[04:53] <dolphin-man> I used the  !language function
[04:53] <Flannel> dolphin-man: So.... now, can you tell me why you were banned?
[04:54] <dolphin-man> Flannel, LjL said I was using the !language function to be annoying
[04:54] <dolphin-man> and when I pressed the issue they said that I had been given many chances before, so they decided to permaban me
[04:54] <dolphin-man> when I tried to ask chu what rule I broke
[04:55] <dolphin-man> he just said said 'stupidity' and wouldn't elaborate
[04:55] <Tm_T> dolphin-man: you don't notice in your paste that you're cursing?
[04:55] <dolphin-man> Yes, I do
[04:55] <dolphin-man> That's not the reason for the permaban.
[04:56] <Flannel> alright.  So, now I've heard from LjL and chu about why you were banned.  Can you tell me what you think you did that warranted a ban?
[04:57] <dolphin-man> I don't think what I did warranted a permaban. I used a curse word without thinking and I was warned by phunnyguy
[04:57] <dolphin-man> That seemed more than adequate
[04:58] <Flannel> dolphin-man: And what made you think using the language factoid back was called for?
[04:59] <Flannel> As far as I can tell, phynyguy hadn't used inappropriate language.
[04:59] <dolphin-man> phunnyguy has been repeatedly abusive to me in the past, and that was just my way of saying 'please be considerate'
[05:00] <Flannel> What was inconsiderate of his use of the factoid?  And why didn't you just say "Please be considerate"?  As far as I can tell, he was using that factoid appropriately.
[05:00] <dolphin-man> I didn't realize I had done broken any rule until I reviewed the log later, after I had been banned
[05:00] <dolphin-man> Freenode is the only irc network that has such draconian rules regarding language
[05:01] <dolphin-man> so I am in the habit of treating minor curse words as being appropriate, a  habit that i carried over here
[05:01] <dolphin-man> without thinking
[05:01] <dolphin-man> I had broken*
[05:03] <Flannel> dolphin-man: So, if I were going to rate curse words, "fuck" would be as far from minor as you get, and that's not just me, if you look at movie ratings and things.
[05:03] <dolphin-man> I guess if you are looking from the perspective of someone who is very uptight
[05:04] <dolphin-man> I just personally don't see it as a big deal, and I failed to pay attention to the standards of the channel
[05:04] <Flannel> dolphin-man: So, the way this usually works (and it did today as well) is you'll get a warning verbally, then a warning as a kick, and then a ban if you continue.
[05:05] <dolphin-man> ok
[05:05] <Flannel> You started out saying "hi" over and over for no reason, were asked to stop, were kicked when you didn't stop, and then you went on to use profanity and *then* get indignant when you were reminded not to, which resulted in your ban.
[05:05] <dolphin-man> I didn't get indignant.
[05:05] <dolphin-man> I didn't have enough time to become indignant, I was almost immediately permabanned
[05:06] <Flannel> So, your original evaluation was completely myopic, thinking that the reason you were banned was solely based on your factoid use.
[05:06] <dolphin-man> I was also not told why I was banned
[05:06] <dolphin-man> I mean
[05:06] <Flannel> No, you got indignant when you replied to his warranted factoid with an unwarranted one.  I don't care that you weren't keeping the guidelines in mind, that's not an excuse, since you had previously assured the operators that you would follow them.
[05:06] <dolphin-man> kicked.
[05:07] <dolphin-man> What was wrong with my use of the factoid?
[05:07] <Flannel> dolphin-man: You were asked to stop, you didn't.  No real explanation is necessary.  If you can't make the connection there, I'm not sure you're cut out for IRC.
[05:07] <dolphin-man> It was based on a misunderstanding, but it isnt worth a ban
[05:07] <dolphin-man> for the rest of my life
[05:07] <dolphin-man> until the day I die
[05:07] <dolphin-man> that seems gratuitous
[05:07] <Flannel> dolphin-man: No, none of those things individually are worth a ban.  However the sum of them together shows a pattern of troublemaking, which resulted in your ban.
[05:08] <Flannel> And, as I started out, bans are rarely "permanent" and this one is no different.
[05:08] <dolphin-man> why did chu say my ban was permanent
[05:09] <Flannel> I don't know, but I've told you a couple times now that it's not.  If you'd *like* it to be, that can be arranged.
[05:10] <dolphin-man> How do I go about having the ban removed
[05:11] <dolphin-man> I'm very sorry for breaking the rules
[05:11] <dolphin-man> I just want to discuss ubuntu in a casual environment with other ubuntu users
[05:11] <dolphin-man> I use Ubuntu, CTCP VERSION me if you dont believe me
[05:11] <chu> To be fair, I told you the ban was permanent, because having dealt with you once before, you had assured me you read the guidelines and understood the channel's policies. After you explicitly showed you had not done so, I couldn't be bothered having a reasoned discussion with you.
[05:12] <Flannel> dolphin-man: You come talk to the operators (that's us) in here.  Once we feel you've grown enough to not cause problems in a channel, we allow you to rejoin the channel.
[05:13] <dolphin-man> okay
[05:13] <Flannel> dolphin-man: The purpose of bans is to keep a channel a friendly, safe environment for people to participate.  It's not to keep you out of it.  Only to keep your behavior out of it.
[05:13] <dolphin-man> okay gotcha, thanks
[05:13] <dolphin-man> that's okay, chu. I forgive you
[05:13] <Flannel> So in order to get a ban removed, you need to show us that the behavior will not immediately repeat itself (which will, unfortunately, cause you to get banned again)
[05:14] <dolphin-man> How do I show that?
[05:15] <Flannel> Sometimes its through behavior in other channels, other times its through a discussion in here with us.  I think the latter is probably most appropriate for you.
[05:16] <dolphin-man> okay
[05:17] <Flannel> dolphin-man: So, what I'm going to do is ask you to read the code of conduct and the IRC guidelines once more, and then take a few days off to think and let them soak in.  Come back on, lets say three days from now (approximately 72 hours, at *least* 70).  And we can have a chat about your behavior today, how it'll be different in the future, etc.
[05:17] <Flannel> And, for the record, your behavior in -ot yesterday wasn't superb either.  You were almost removed a few times.
[05:18] <dolphin-man> there was one time where a guy came in with technical problems, and I helped him solve them though
[05:18] <dolphin-man> I think it was a couple days ago
[05:18] <Flannel> I'm not guaranteeing you'll have the ban removed either, just so you're clear.  Just that we'll talk things over and see where we get.
[05:19] <Flannel> dolphin-man: Being a good citizen doesn't give you a free pass to be a poor one.
[05:19] <dolphin-man> ok
[05:19] <dolphin-man> thats fair
[05:19] <Flannel> dolphin-man: Do you have links to the code of conduct and IRC guidelines?  Or would you like me to provide them?
[05:20] <dolphin-man> i dont have them
[05:20] <Flannel> alright, here's the CoC: http://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/conduct and here's the IRC Guidelines: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines
[05:21] <Flannel> dolphin-man: If there's nothing else, please read those over and we'll see you in a few days.
[05:21] <dolphin-man> alright
[05:21] <dolphin-man> one more thing
[05:21] <dolphin-man> >CoC
[05:21]  * dolphin-man giggles
[05:21] <dolphin-man> one sec, ill open up a text file and save them. I'll read it after I get off work tomorrow
[05:22] <dolphin-man> i need to sleep
[05:22] <Flannel> dolphin-man: Please part this channel to keep it free for others who need to use it.  Thanks.
[05:22] <dolphin-man> okay
[05:23] <dolphin-man> I need to think of something catchy to say as I part channels
[05:23] <Flannel> How about "bye"
[05:23] <dolphin-man> chu, think of something for me for next time i come here
[05:23] <dolphin-man> too common
[05:23] <IdleOne> had a kick waiting :(
[05:23] <IdleOne> with a clever part message
[07:02] <bazhang> he's asked to be patient, and wait more than 5 seconds between questions...so he waits a whole minute
[07:02] <bazhang> refuses to read the grub2 wiki as well
[07:03] <ikonia> probably worthless anyway if he has multiple broken windows entries and he's used "boot-repair" blindly
[07:04] <bazhang> his Windows is either gone, or mortally damaged
[07:04] <bazhang> odds  on having backups: against 3/5
[07:05] <ikonia> I suspect it's not gone as you'd get an error, I'm pretty sure it's fixable if he wasn't blindly doing things,
[07:06] <bazhang> it will be if he continues to rush blindly around
[07:11] <bazhang> I thought directly editing grub was a no-no, and very cleared warned against
[07:11] <ikonia> pretty much
[07:11] <ikonia> it can be useful to get out of a jam ,but the next update from another package will break it/overwrite it
[07:11] <bazhang> in fact the wiki states that very clearly, another sign he is not reading a single thing
[07:12] <ikonia> it's actually written in the grub.conf - ** DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE MANUALLY **
[07:12] <ikonia> that said, it can be useful as a fix to get a machine booting to fix it properly
[07:12] <bazhang> yes, I've seen that; pretty much impossible to miss
[07:13] <ikonia> the current menu generation process isn't great for troubleshooting, especially if you need to keep chrooting - so just directly editing the file to get it to boot, then fixing it properly isn't a bad idea
[07:20] <ikonia> @mark #ubuntu-offtopic cantstanya trying to stir up something against idleone out of the blue then says "need to sleep" so can't actually deal with it
[15:38] <genii> @comment 57094 Spamming in Spanish, ignored !es
[15:43] <genii> @comment 57096 Spamming
[18:48] <genii> I wonder why ruby in precise is default 1.8 and then 1.9 is it's own separate package.
[18:56] <Pici> What is cantstanya on about?
[18:57] <genii> No idea.
 PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, SOMEONE HELP MEEEEEE
[19:25] <bazhang> I sense some urgency
[20:02] <genii> @comment 57097 Ad spam
[20:55] <ikonia> whoaa
[20:59] <AlanBell> gosh
[21:00] <IdleOne> All them permabans we set
[21:03] <genii> I think all my bans in total are less than 20 or so
[21:04] <k1l_> i just removed some german dynip bans
[21:05] <k1l_> when i set bans i do set a time frame with the comments.
[21:07] <ikonia> it's hard to work out exactly how many for the older ops as there is the stale BT entries, and all the Marks too
[21:07] <ikonia> Myrtti: ping - any chance we can borrow your useful ban script please.
[21:07] <genii> Hm, actually it appears I have more like 95, but this is across all channels.
[21:08] <ikonia> you'll find it's less than that as you've probably got a few in the old BT stale ban list, plus some marks
[21:11] <genii> 47 in #u going back to 2009
[21:13] <IdleOne> we could clear the +q list, thoughts?
[21:14] <Myrtti> which ban script
[21:15] <k1l_> bantracker seems to be out of sync somehow
[21:15] <Unit193> IdleOne: +e and +I lists taking up much?
[21:15] <Myrtti> well anyway it will have to wait until tomorrow, my eyes are declaring an expiration date right now
[21:16] <IdleOne> Unit193: +e is managed by the floodbots, threre shouldn't be any leftovers from that
[21:16] <IdleOne> but I think floodbots only count +b and +q
[21:16] <IdleOne> and the @marks
[21:32] <k1l_> just pay some attention to not remove the ip-range bans from syko :)
[21:34] <genii> I've removed all of mine now that are possible.
[21:35] <IdleOne> I removed the floodbot bans that are actually kicks. we can always reset if need be
[23:32] <wilee-nilee> So when and why is #ubuntu-beginners a invite only now, just curious
[23:32] <Unit193> wilee-nilee: It forwards to #ubuntu, you'd only see that it's invite only if you are already in #ubuntu.
[23:33] <wilee-nilee> ah, that makes sense, cool. ;)