=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1305/appdev-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/27/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-2.html
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/27/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-2.html
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Track: App Development | App development story feedback from developers | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21910/appdev-1308-developer-story-feedback/
GuidoPallemanswho's going to present this one?15:57
mhall119I am15:58
mhall119getting it setup now15:58
mhall119alright, if anybody wants to join, here's the link: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/060f91f1f6c3483ef4578e41a9ae651c71346c03?authuser=1&hl=en16:01
mhall119video should be live16:03
karniyou're live16:03
karnino delay? :)16:03
mhall119karni: no, there's delay16:04
popeymhall119: Live! :D16:04
WebbyITsorry mhall119 choose wrong hangout :-/16:07
WebbyITSo embarassing16:07
popeydo you have a link to the documentation which shows that bram?16:08
GuidoPallemansstill searching :D16:08
mhall119hey WebbyIT16:10
karniIs Alexandre A. the only person working on ubuntu-html5-theme? UbuntuUI seems a core development component of UTouch HTML5 apps and it seems there's still quite a lot of work to shape it up nicely. I know it might not be something Ubuntu SDK team is working on directly, but to me as a developer it is clearly a core piece of the puzzle.16:10
karniCSS was done by community I think. I see.16:11
karniThank you16:12
karniWhy tapping and not "dragging down" - shouldn't tapping on it open the message?16:12
GuidoPallemanswhere can I find the extras api docs?16:12
karniAh I see, thanks okey :)16:14
timpkarni: I think we should ask that to one of the designers. Unfortunately there are none in the current session16:14
karniNot sure if I should bring it up here (my intentions are good), but the QR code tutorial needs a tiny bit of love. There's a few missing code snippets, and you can't follow the tutorial to complete the app from A to Z even if you wanted (although that may have not been the aim of the tutorial).16:14
karnitimp: Thank you16:14
karnitimp: (I would imagine a thread for that particular person could be shown, just a thought :) )16:15
timpkarni: yes, I can imagine that too.16:15
timpkarni: fyi, http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/devel/ubuntu-13.10/qml/ui-toolkit/qml-ubuntu-components-listitems0-valueselector.html also expands on tap16:15
* karni nods16:16
timpon http://design.ubuntu.com/apps we list the design patterns that should be followed, with links to APIs16:18
mhall119karni: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntudeveloperportal/+filebug16:18
karnimhall119: thank you!16:18
GuidoPallemansI'm gonna quit the hangout16:18
karnimhall119: Sure I will, than kyou16:19
GuidoPallemansIt would be nice to have something like this16:19
mhall119GuidoPallemans: thanks16:19
GuidoPallemansfor things like "now you can add a toolbar"16:19
GuidoPallemansor HUD integration16:19
timpGuidoPallemans: did you check http://design.ubuntu.com/apps to see if that fulfills your needs?16:19
GuidoPallemansor the friends api16:19
GuidoPallemansyeah I did, but that is more from a design point of view, but I'm talking about functionality16:20
GuidoPallemansit does look good though16:21
GuidoPallemans"it's just gonna be a lot of writing" ... indeed :D16:21
timpwriting *and* updating when components get updated16:22
GuidoPallemanswill the new app store include a user page? a bit like the launchpad page - with email, other apps, irc name, website,...16:23
timpmhall119: ^16:23
thomimhall119: re taking screenshots - that's something you may want support in autopilot for?16:24
GuidoPallemansmaybe also screen-videos?16:24
GuidoPallemansthat would be really nice, I'm still looking for a nice tool to do this16:25
thomiGuidoPallemans: autopilot can already take videos of failing tests, with a few exceptions (not on the phone, currently)16:25
thomibut that should be more do-able once mir lands on the device16:25
thomiand it's on our TODO list :)16:25
jasonamyerscan we also get some sort of Interface Design guidelines?16:26
thomimhall119: OK, I'll file a feature development bug.16:26
thomishouldn't be too hard :)16:26
jasonamyersI know that the visual quality of the apps on android has improved since they started that16:26
GuidoPallemansjasonamyers: http://design.ubuntu.com/apps16:26
jasonamyersthanks GuidoPallemans16:27
thomimhall119: sure. There's also an autopilot feature development session this morning at 7am16:27
thomierr, 7PM UTC16:27
GuidoPallemansI'll probably check that, I don't know too much about autopilot16:28
thomiFYI: https://bugs.launchpad.net/autopilot/+bug/121744416:29
udsbotuLaunchpad bug 1217444 in Autopilot "Add support for taking screenshots at certain points in the test" [Medium,Triaged]16:29
popeythere's echo mhall119, i am hearing your voice twice..16:29
jasonamyersPersonal opinion, but I find the design part of it impossible16:30
timpjasonamyers: can you elaborate on that?16:30
jasonamyerswhen I like the design tab in the QT Creator that is16:30
GuidoPallemansI would remove the irc channel from the plug-in, and just link that from the main page16:30
karniThe problems I found have already bugs filed (or even fix related). Like, I hear you now should be able to click package an HTML5 app16:30
GuidoPallemansand maybe the core apps too - should that really be in the sidebar?16:30
jasonamyersIt launches several grey windows16:30
jasonamyersand doesn't show up very well16:31
jasonamyersokay, good to know16:31
karni*fix released16:32
jasonamyersI like the link there16:32
GuidoPallemansapi link is very useful16:32
aquariushey, dudes16:32
karnihi aquarius o/16:32
GuidoPallemansalthough the search functionality is broke16:32
* karni nods16:33
GuidoPallemanssearch functionality in qt creator itself16:34
aquariusI'd like to be able to have there be a smooth path between "pure web apps" (served from my server, using HTML5's offline capabilities, but integrating with Ubuntu), through to a "native HTML5 app", where I take all the assets and package them in a click package and distribute them, possibly getting access to extra privileged APIs in the process.16:34
karni( aquarius: FYI there's a huge lag, they'll see it in a moment )16:35
aquariusSo I can start off building a "pure web app" and then if I decide I want to give up the benefits of being on the web (no packaging required, instant deployment) I can easily translate that to a "native web app" and get access to the extra stuff that a native app gives me.16:35
timpkarni: no we see it instantly, but you see our replies in a moment ;)16:35
karnitimp: oh.. that's pretty bad. I thought the hangout is more or less live (seems less ;) )16:36
timpirc is pretty real-time :)16:36
karnitimp: I couldn't believe what I was saying, but I said it anyway lol ;)16:36
aquariushey, Mike. Sorry I was late: I had a meeting ;(16:37
aquariusWhat's not smooth about it: none of it exists except in statements like "we will be able to do HTML5 apps at some point" ;)16:37
karniIs it just me, or the stream started to be laggy?16:37
aquariusha! I have to meet with clients still :P16:38
aquariusIt's not at all clear how "web HTML5 apps" will work with Ubuntu. Will they be in a separate container, or a tab of the Ubuntu Browser?16:38
timpkarni: waving my hand... NOW (so you can check the delay between irc and video)16:39
GuidoPallemansI also had an idea for another component (also mentioned it a couple days ago): a column, or grid even, that has rectangle on the north, east, south and west of it. the grid is a flickable, but you have to pull these rectangles out, to trigger the action. example: a north rectangle with a search bar16:39
aquariusOn the desktop, "web HTML5 apps" are in a browser tab. I don't think that'll be the case on touch, right?16:39
aquariustimp: just seen you wave16:40
karnitimp: ~15 seonds16:40
timpthat's not too bad16:40
marrabld_>15 secons for me16:40
* aquarius laughs16:41
popeywebapps open in their own window at the moment16:41
popeyon the device16:41
aquariuspopey, they don't on the desktop. That's my point...16:41
popeyi agree16:41
karniaquarius: the "own window" might be the cordova runtime, right?16:41
popeythat sucks16:41
aquariusI'm cool if all web apps launch in a container16:41
popeyi personally would prefer web apps to open in a chromeless window, with external links opening in a new window16:41
popeybut I am not driving this ☹16:41
aquariusthat is: I go to a website, in ht e Ubuntu Browser, on Touch, and it has Ubuntu integration so it appears on the Launcher -- if I pin it to the Launcher, close the browser, then press the Launcher button, what happens? That's what I'm asking. It's different between desktop and touch, I think, but maybe I'm wrong. :)16:42
aquarius"container" -- a separate browser window.16:42
karniaquarius: that's a really good question16:43
aquariusIf it's a web app it's *already* sandboxed, because it's in a web browser :)16:43
aquariusthe question about a container is relevant because it depends what the browser engine in that container *is* -- if it's QtWebKit then it doesn't have half of the stuff that Chrome does, for example.16:43
kalikianaso it gets extra sandy if it runs inside confinement :-P16:44
aquariussomeone else ask questions now :)16:44
aquariusmhall119, I think you've heard all my feeedback on the developer experience by email :)16:45
mhall119aquarius: yup16:45
GuidoPallemansQUESTION Will the tabscomponent on touch devices scroll tab-to-tab with flicking?16:45
popeyQUESTION: Plans to port SDK to OSX/Windows?16:45
aquariusthe full cordova api is *not* available to remotely hosted web apps, or at least it shouldn't be -- it's privileged, requiring native installation.16:46
aquariuspopey, is that "can I run Ubuntu Touch apps on a Windows machine" or "can I *develop* Ubuntu Touch apps on a Windows machine"?16:47
popeywhich implies run16:47
GuidoPallemansFOLLOW-UP wouldn't it be best to have a bool property in the tabs component that en-/disables the tab-to-tab flicking behaviour?16:47
karniProbably because we use left and right edges, and that could have influenced the decision.16:48
popeywell, doesnt have to imply run16:48
aquariuspersonal opinion: why's that important? :)16:48
timpsdk on windows/osx: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21917/appdev-1308-sdk-porting/16:48
popeyooh thanks timp16:48
popeyaquarius:  there are orders of magnitude more developers running windows/osx than Ubuntu.16:48
GuidoPallemansmhall119: ok, sure16:49
aquariuspopey, yeah, but it is hard to see how you can properly test an Ubuntu Touch app without having Ubuntu around. Fine, you can draw a rectangle on the screen, but you can't use the HUD, the Launcher, the Messaging Menu... same as how you can't really develop an iOS app without the iOS emulator. Providing an Ubuntu Touch VM that people can use on Windows seems sensible to me. Porting the Ubuntu Components so16:50
aquariusthey all work on some other OS which doesn't provide all the facilities seems less useful to me.16:50
aquariusya, but an Ubuntu Touch app is not like other platforms! It is if you're a fullscreen opengl game, sure, but any app that's "cross platform" won't look like Ubuntu Touch at all :)16:51
aquariusah, cool, VM. I am happy with that :016:51
aquariusQtCreator running on Windows, deploying the apps to a VM, seems sensible.16:53
mhall119aquarius: +116:53
aquariussince the QtCreator team are already working on that sort of thing, surely? :)16:53
karniThanks for the session guys16:54
jasonamyersthank you!16:54
karnithank you16:55
aquariusthank you mhall119, timp, kalikiana16:55
GuidoPallemansthanks huys16:55
mhall119thanks everyone16:55
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/27/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-2.html
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Track: App Development | App developer site IA update and new content | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21912/appdev-1308-developer-site-new-ia-and-content/
mhall119alright, hope everybody had a good lunch, who's ready to start?18:00
mhall119https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/4ddfe8968b6c84bfd6ef63656be38ad216bb266f?authuser=1&hl=en is the hangout URL, please join me the video so I'm not lonely :)18:01
mhall119video will start broadcasting in a couple minutes18:01
mhall119popey: that means you :)18:02
mhall119dpm: join when you can, I'm going to start the broadcast18:04
dpmmhall119, cool, I'll be a minute, just discussion about the cordova session18:05
mojo706I can join the hangout how to participate?18:05
kyleNItzyou are live18:05
mhall119mojo706: ask in IRC then, can you see the video at least?18:05
sethjWe see you18:06
mhall119anybody who wants to join us in the video hangout https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/4ddfe8968b6c84bfd6ef63656be38ad216bb266f?authuser=1&hl=en18:06
popeyhttp://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-appdev-1308-developer-site-new-ia-and-content  the etherpad18:07
mojo706I was told there would be audio. Poor meI'll have to watch later18:09
mhall119mojo706: only the video18:09
kyleNItzthere are code samples in ubuntu-html5-theme-examples package by the way (similar for qml)18:13
mojo706suggestion: deep dive tutorials sample picture app in html/js18:15
kyleNItzI have an overall question18:15
sethjLooks nice!18:15
kyleNItz"web apps" as level one banner item seemed right to introduce it, but now with html5 apps coming it seems somewhat confusing.18:15
kyleNItzweb apps seems to mean integration with lifeycycle of app from a unity perspective18:16
sethjOne question I do have is if there's going to be a full blown QML tutorial or do developers have to pick that up somewhere else?18:16
mojo706yes what sethj asked.18:17
kyleNItzI also think that "Native" vs html5 may not be a proper distinction. How is a qml js app more native than an html5/js app that is more than just a front end to a web page?18:19
ayr_tonTheres will be a REST API for the central hub and web apps?18:20
sethjJust a little more comprehensive..18:20
sethjI understand that's probably not Canonical's job..18:20
sethjThere don't seem to be any real good docs for QML, so other than David's converter app I'm kinda left in the dark18:21
ayr_tonabout the website18:22
ayr_tonIt will be a REST API?18:22
mojo706what if you dont want to use cordova18:22
mhall119ayr_ton: the developer portal or the API website?18:22
ayr_tonmhall119, the developer portal18:23
kyleNItzcan someone post the link to the development version of dev.u.com again?18:24
mhall119kyleNItz: it's at the top of the etherpad, do you have the etherpad open?18:24
kyleNItzah, thanks18:24
ayr_tonmhall119, If yes, we can use something like http://yeoman.io/ for the webapps and http://apiary.io for api blueprint.18:26
ayr_tonmhall119, Okay18:28
e8hffffWho's going to rein in the app looks and quality.  personally I think many of the apps are straying off the conceptal path18:54
e8hffff...as in the core apps18:55
alex-abreukyleN, thanks for that ! :)18:55
mhall119e8hffff: we're going to try and get some design guidelines together, but ultimately the app developer decides what to do with their app18:55
e8hffffmhall119: ok good to know18:55
e8hffffmhall: wathcing your hangout live youtube at moment. wasn't sure if this was the channel to ask questions or not.18:57
mhall119e8hffff: it is, but we're almost out of time18:58
alex-abreumhall119, great explanation18:58
alex-abreumhall119, a webapp is basically passive from the point of view of the website18:58
e8hffffmhall: I get OpenID errors in the offical ubuntu URL18:58
alex-abreumhall119, and the concept is orthongonal to the one of the available apis18:58
e8hffffmhall: anyway no need to reply.  concentrate on what you're doing18:59
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Track: App Development | New API documentation website | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21865/appdev-1305-api-website/
e8hffffI agree with the guy talking about app and webapps. The Youtube Apps is lost in that it's not dedicated enough.19:00
sethjI think there's a difference in the use point of view too.19:01
alex-abreumhall119, on thursday there should be a session on html5 apps19:01
dinkometalac_e8hffff, youtube app can be done as soon as HTML5 video i supported in Ubuntu touch19:02
dinkometalac_right now, we cannot do anything about that19:02
e8hffffthe priority should obviously to promote real qml apps19:02
dinkometalac_just look what happened to MS19:02
dinkometalac_and their app for wp819:02
mhall119e8hffff: HTML5 and QML are equals on Ubuntu Touch19:02
e8hffffmhall: yeah as in they share js, but the end results are noticable19:03
e8hffffbtw I haven't done much cordova coding.19:04
e8hffffI get the argument though as in different  approaches using the same gears19:06
e8hffffTo me webapps = webkit with interfaces to system19:06
mojo706e8hffff, you mean on Ubuntu Touch or Webapps in general19:07
e8hffffgeneral.  It's ahrd to draw lines since qml is using similar gears19:08
mhall119alright, time to start the API website session19:08
e8hffffthat was to mojo19:08
mhall119https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/87949fb860456f85049ef5a0cf5e9b3f75c47b4f?authuser=1&hl=en for anybody who would like to join19:08
e8hffffUbuntu guys a criticism is you shoudl eb using the email dabase more you got when people signed up on news release of Ubuntuu touch19:09
zygavideo live19:11
sethj_I see you19:11
zygalast time the lag was 4 minutes19:11
zygaI just heard you19:12
e8hffffanyway cheers.  Thanks for the works and efforts.  Seems like milestones are being had and it's getting exciting..  bye...19:12
zygawhere is the site?19:13
zygaah, thanks19:13
=== sethj_ is now known as sethj
* zyga joins the etherpad team19:14
* zyga still doesn't see etherpad :/19:15
zygabut that's ok19:15
zygait's pretty neat19:16
zygait looks great19:16
sethjI had to log out of lp/SSO and log back in before I saw the etherpad.19:17
sethjjust fyi19:17
zygaI'm interested in one thing, do you envison that the way this consumes content could be adapted to, say, consume docs for python code?19:17
zygaI'm interested in this very much then!19:18
zygayou broke up after "opposite"19:18
mhall119zyga: can you hear me now?19:19
zygait's ok19:19
zygait was just for a few seconds19:19
sethjall fine here19:19
micah2QUESTION: Will the new api webpages include a visual example of visual elements?19:21
zygawhere is the code?19:27
zygamhall119: cool, I will19:43
zygathanks for asking, I usually just silently ignore when people pronounce my name in funny ways :)19:47
zygamhall119: if you can assume we have python2.7 we can drop argparse from requiremetns19:49
zygamhall119: what is the better channel to talk about this?19:49
mhall119zyga: I won't guarantee that I won't pronounce it in funny ways still19:49
GuidoPallemansits up20:00
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/27/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-2.html

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