[15:57] <GuidoPallemans> who's going to present this one?
[15:58] <mhall119> I am
[15:58] <mhall119> getting it setup now
[16:01] <mhall119> alright, if anybody wants to join, here's the link: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/060f91f1f6c3483ef4578e41a9ae651c71346c03?authuser=1&hl=en
[16:03] <mhall119> video should be live
[16:03] <karni> you're live
[16:03] <karni> perfect
[16:03] <karni> no delay? :)
[16:04] <mhall119> karni: no, there's delay
[16:04] <karni> ;(
[16:04] <popey> mhall119: Live! :D
[16:04] <mhall119> :P
[16:04] <ikt> =o
[16:06] <mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/060f91f1f6c3483ef4578e41a9ae651c71346c03?authuser=1&hl=en
[16:07] <WebbyIT> sorry mhall119 choose wrong hangout :-/
[16:07] <WebbyIT> So embarassing
[16:08] <popey> do you have a link to the documentation which shows that bram?
[16:08] <GuidoPallemans> still searching :D
[16:10] <mhall119> hey WebbyIT
[16:10] <karni> Is Alexandre A. the only person working on ubuntu-html5-theme? UbuntuUI seems a core development component of UTouch HTML5 apps and it seems there's still quite a lot of work to shape it up nicely. I know it might not be something Ubuntu SDK team is working on directly, but to me as a developer it is clearly a core piece of the puzzle.
[16:11] <GuidoPallemans> http://design.ubuntu.com/apps/building-blocks/expansion
[16:11] <GuidoPallemans> popey:
[16:11] <popey> thanks
[16:11] <karni> CSS was done by community I think. I see.
[16:12] <karni> Thank you
[16:12] <karni> Why tapping and not "dragging down" - shouldn't tapping on it open the message?
[16:12] <GuidoPallemans> where can I find the extras api docs?
[16:13] <karni> right
[16:14] <karni> Ah I see, thanks okey :)
[16:14] <timp> karni: I think we should ask that to one of the designers. Unfortunately there are none in the current session
[16:14] <karni> Not sure if I should bring it up here (my intentions are good), but the QR code tutorial needs a tiny bit of love. There's a few missing code snippets, and you can't follow the tutorial to complete the app from A to Z even if you wanted (although that may have not been the aim of the tutorial).
[16:14] <karni> timp: Thank you
[16:15] <GuidoPallemans> http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5.0/qtquick/qtquick-qmltypereference.html
[16:15] <karni> timp: (I would imagine a thread for that particular person could be shown, just a thought :) )
[16:15] <timp> karni: yes, I can imagine that too.
[16:15] <timp> karni: fyi, http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/devel/ubuntu-13.10/qml/ui-toolkit/qml-ubuntu-components-listitems0-valueselector.html also expands on tap
[16:16]  * karni nods
[16:18] <timp> on http://design.ubuntu.com/apps we list the design patterns that should be followed, with links to APIs
[16:18] <mhall119> karni: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntudeveloperportal/+filebug
[16:18] <karni> mhall119: thank you!
[16:18] <GuidoPallemans> https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/ui/index.html
[16:18] <GuidoPallemans> I'm gonna quit the hangout
[16:19] <karni> mhall119: Sure I will, than kyou
[16:19] <GuidoPallemans> It would be nice to have something like this
[16:19] <mhall119> GuidoPallemans: thanks
[16:19] <GuidoPallemans> for things like "now you can add a toolbar"
[16:19] <GuidoPallemans> or HUD integration
[16:19] <timp> GuidoPallemans: did you check http://design.ubuntu.com/apps to see if that fulfills your needs?
[16:19] <GuidoPallemans> or the friends api
[16:20] <GuidoPallemans> yeah I did, but that is more from a design point of view, but I'm talking about functionality
[16:21] <GuidoPallemans> it does look good though
[16:21] <GuidoPallemans> "it's just gonna be a lot of writing" ... indeed :D
[16:22] <timp> writing *and* updating when components get updated
[16:23] <GuidoPallemans> will the new app store include a user page? a bit like the launchpad page - with email, other apps, irc name, website,...
[16:23] <timp> mhall119: ^
[16:24] <thomi> mhall119: re taking screenshots - that's something you may want support in autopilot for?
[16:24] <GuidoPallemans> maybe also screen-videos?
[16:25] <GuidoPallemans> that would be really nice, I'm still looking for a nice tool to do this
[16:25] <thomi> GuidoPallemans: autopilot can already take videos of failing tests, with a few exceptions (not on the phone, currently)
[16:25] <GuidoPallemans> hmm
[16:25] <thomi> but that should be more do-able once mir lands on the device
[16:25] <thomi> and it's on our TODO list :)
[16:26] <jasonamyers> can we also get some sort of Interface Design guidelines?
[16:26] <thomi> mhall119: OK, I'll file a feature development bug.
[16:26] <thomi> shouldn't be too hard :)
[16:26] <jasonamyers> I know that the visual quality of the apps on android has improved since they started that
[16:26] <GuidoPallemans> jasonamyers: http://design.ubuntu.com/apps
[16:27] <jasonamyers> thanks GuidoPallemans
[16:27] <thomi> mhall119: sure. There's also an autopilot feature development session this morning at 7am
[16:27] <thomi> err, 7PM UTC
[16:28] <GuidoPallemans> I'll probably check that, I don't know too much about autopilot
[16:29] <jasonamyers> fantastic!
[16:29] <thomi> FYI: https://bugs.launchpad.net/autopilot/+bug/1217444
[16:29] <udsbotu> Launchpad bug 1217444 in Autopilot "Add support for taking screenshots at certain points in the test" [Medium,Triaged]
[16:29] <popey> there's echo mhall119, i am hearing your voice twice..
[16:30] <jasonamyers> Personal opinion, but I find the design part of it impossible
[16:30] <timp> jasonamyers: can you elaborate on that?
[16:30] <jasonamyers> when I like the design tab in the QT Creator that is
[16:30] <GuidoPallemans> I would remove the irc channel from the plug-in, and just link that from the main page
[16:30] <karni> The problems I found have already bugs filed (or even fix related). Like, I hear you now should be able to click package an HTML5 app
[16:30] <GuidoPallemans> and maybe the core apps too - should that really be in the sidebar?
[16:30] <jasonamyers> It launches several grey windows
[16:31] <jasonamyers> and doesn't show up very well
[16:31] <jasonamyers> okay, good to know
[16:32] <karni> *fix released
[16:32] <jasonamyers> I like the link there
[16:32] <GuidoPallemans> api link is very useful
[16:32] <aquarius> hey, dudes
[16:32] <karni> hi aquarius o/
[16:32] <GuidoPallemans> although the search functionality is broke
[16:33]  * karni nods
[16:34] <GuidoPallemans> search functionality in qt creator itself
[16:34] <aquarius> I'd like to be able to have there be a smooth path between "pure web apps" (served from my server, using HTML5's offline capabilities, but integrating with Ubuntu), through to a "native HTML5 app", where I take all the assets and package them in a click package and distribute them, possibly getting access to extra privileged APIs in the process.
[16:35] <karni> ( aquarius: FYI there's a huge lag, they'll see it in a moment )
[16:35] <aquarius> So I can start off building a "pure web app" and then if I decide I want to give up the benefits of being on the web (no packaging required, instant deployment) I can easily translate that to a "native web app" and get access to the extra stuff that a native app gives me.
[16:35] <timp> karni: no we see it instantly, but you see our replies in a moment ;)
[16:36] <karni> timp: oh.. that's pretty bad. I thought the hangout is more or less live (seems less ;) )
[16:36] <timp> irc is pretty real-time :)
[16:36] <GuidoPallemans> http://imgur.com/OQk8oQt
[16:36] <karni> timp: I couldn't believe what I was saying, but I said it anyway lol ;)
[16:37] <aquarius> hey, Mike. Sorry I was late: I had a meeting ;(
[16:37] <timp> :)
[16:37] <aquarius> What's not smooth about it: none of it exists except in statements like "we will be able to do HTML5 apps at some point" ;)
[16:37] <karni> Is it just me, or the stream started to be laggy?
[16:38] <aquarius> ha! I have to meet with clients still :P
[16:38] <aquarius> It's not at all clear how "web HTML5 apps" will work with Ubuntu. Will they be in a separate container, or a tab of the Ubuntu Browser?
[16:39] <timp> karni: waving my hand... NOW (so you can check the delay between irc and video)
[16:39] <GuidoPallemans> I also had an idea for another component (also mentioned it a couple days ago): a column, or grid even, that has rectangle on the north, east, south and west of it. the grid is a flickable, but you have to pull these rectangles out, to trigger the action. example: a north rectangle with a search bar
[16:39] <aquarius> On the desktop, "web HTML5 apps" are in a browser tab. I don't think that'll be the case on touch, right?
[16:40] <aquarius> timp: just seen you wave
[16:40] <karni> timp: ~15 seonds
[16:40] <timp> that's not too bad
[16:40] <marrabld_> >15 secons for me
[16:41]  * aquarius laughs
[16:41] <popey> webapps open in their own window at the moment
[16:41] <popey> on the device
[16:41] <aquarius> popey, they don't on the desktop. That's my point...
[16:41] <popey> i agree
[16:41] <karni> aquarius: the "own window" might be the cordova runtime, right?
[16:41] <popey> that sucks
[16:41] <aquarius> I'm cool if all web apps launch in a container
[16:41] <popey> i personally would prefer web apps to open in a chromeless window, with external links opening in a new window
[16:41] <popey> but I am not driving this ☹
[16:42] <aquarius> that is: I go to a website, in ht e Ubuntu Browser, on Touch, and it has Ubuntu integration so it appears on the Launcher -- if I pin it to the Launcher, close the browser, then press the Launcher button, what happens? That's what I'm asking. It's different between desktop and touch, I think, but maybe I'm wrong. :)
[16:42] <aquarius> "container" -- a separate browser window.
[16:43] <karni> aquarius: that's a really good question
[16:43] <aquarius> If it's a web app it's *already* sandboxed, because it's in a web browser :)
[16:43] <popey> \o/
[16:43] <aquarius> the question about a container is relevant because it depends what the browser engine in that container *is* -- if it's QtWebKit then it doesn't have half of the stuff that Chrome does, for example.
[16:44] <kalikiana> so it gets extra sandy if it runs inside confinement :-P
[16:44] <aquarius> someone else ask questions now :)
[16:45] <aquarius> mhall119, I think you've heard all my feeedback on the developer experience by email :)
[16:45] <mhall119> aquarius: yup
[16:45] <GuidoPallemans> QUESTION Will the tabscomponent on touch devices scroll tab-to-tab with flicking?
[16:45] <popey> QUESTION: Plans to port SDK to OSX/Windows?
[16:46] <aquarius> the full cordova api is *not* available to remotely hosted web apps, or at least it shouldn't be -- it's privileged, requiring native installation.
[16:47] <aquarius> popey, is that "can I run Ubuntu Touch apps on a Windows machine" or "can I *develop* Ubuntu Touch apps on a Windows machine"?
[16:47] <popey> develop
[16:47] <popey> which implies run
[16:47] <GuidoPallemans> FOLLOW-UP wouldn't it be best to have a bool property in the tabs component that en-/disables the tab-to-tab flicking behaviour?
[16:48] <karni> Probably because we use left and right edges, and that could have influenced the decision.
[16:48] <popey> well, doesnt have to imply run
[16:48] <aquarius> personal opinion: why's that important? :)
[16:48] <timp> sdk on windows/osx: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21917/appdev-1308-sdk-porting/
[16:48] <popey> ooh thanks timp
[16:48] <karni> :)
[16:48] <popey> aquarius:  there are orders of magnitude more developers running windows/osx than Ubuntu.
[16:49] <GuidoPallemans> mhall119: ok, sure
[16:50] <aquarius> popey, yeah, but it is hard to see how you can properly test an Ubuntu Touch app without having Ubuntu around. Fine, you can draw a rectangle on the screen, but you can't use the HUD, the Launcher, the Messaging Menu... same as how you can't really develop an iOS app without the iOS emulator. Providing an Ubuntu Touch VM that people can use on Windows seems sensible to me. Porting the Ubuntu Components so
[16:50] <aquarius> they all work on some other OS which doesn't provide all the facilities seems less useful to me.
[16:51] <aquarius> ya, but an Ubuntu Touch app is not like other platforms! It is if you're a fullscreen opengl game, sure, but any app that's "cross platform" won't look like Ubuntu Touch at all :)
[16:51] <aquarius> ah, cool, VM. I am happy with that :0
[16:53] <aquarius> QtCreator running on Windows, deploying the apps to a VM, seems sensible.
[16:53] <mhall119> aquarius: +1
[16:53] <aquarius> since the QtCreator team are already working on that sort of thing, surely? :)
[16:53] <karni> :)
[16:54] <karni> Thanks for the session guys
[16:54] <jasonamyers> thank you!
[16:55] <karni> thank you
[16:55] <aquarius> thank you mhall119, timp, kalikiana
[16:55] <popey> thanks!
[16:55] <GuidoPallemans> thanks huys
[16:55] <GuidoPallemans> guys*
[16:55] <mhall119> thanks everyone
[18:00] <mhall119> alright, hope everybody had a good lunch, who's ready to start?
[18:01] <mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/4ddfe8968b6c84bfd6ef63656be38ad216bb266f?authuser=1&hl=en is the hangout URL, please join me the video so I'm not lonely :)
[18:01] <mhall119> video will start broadcasting in a couple minutes
[18:02] <mhall119> popey: that means you :)
[18:03] <popey> hah
[18:04] <mhall119> dpm: join when you can, I'm going to start the broadcast
[18:05] <dpm> mhall119, cool, I'll be a minute, just discussion about the cordova session
[18:05] <dpm> *discussing
[18:05] <mojo706> I can join the hangout how to participate?
[18:05] <mojo706> *can't
[18:05] <kyleNItz> you are live
[18:05] <mhall119> mojo706: ask in IRC then, can you see the video at least?
[18:06] <sethj> We see you
[18:06] <mhall119> anybody who wants to join us in the video hangout https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/4ddfe8968b6c84bfd6ef63656be38ad216bb266f?authuser=1&hl=en
[18:07] <popey> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-appdev-1308-developer-site-new-ia-and-content  the etherpad
[18:09] <mojo706> I was told there would be audio. Poor meI'll have to watch later
[18:09] <mhall119> mojo706: only the video
[18:13] <kyleNItz> there are code samples in ubuntu-html5-theme-examples package by the way (similar for qml)
[18:15] <mojo706> suggestion: deep dive tutorials sample picture app in html/js
[18:15] <kyleNItz> I have an overall question
[18:15] <sethj> Looks nice!
[18:15] <kyleNItz> "web apps" as level one banner item seemed right to introduce it, but now with html5 apps coming it seems somewhat confusing.
[18:16] <kyleNItz> web apps seems to mean integration with lifeycycle of app from a unity perspective
[18:16] <sethj> One question I do have is if there's going to be a full blown QML tutorial or do developers have to pick that up somewhere else?
[18:17] <mojo706> yes what sethj asked.
[18:19] <dpm> http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/
[18:19] <kyleNItz> I also think that "Native" vs html5 may not be a proper distinction. How is a qml js app more native than an html5/js app that is more than just a front end to a web page?
[18:20] <ayr_ton> Theres will be a REST API for the central hub and web apps?
[18:20] <sethj> Just a little more comprehensive..
[18:20] <sethj> I understand that's probably not Canonical's job..
[18:21] <sethj> There don't seem to be any real good docs for QML, so other than David's converter app I'm kinda left in the dark
[18:22] <ayr_ton> about the website
[18:22] <ayr_ton> It will be a REST API?
[18:22] <mojo706> what if you dont want to use cordova
[18:22] <mhall119> ayr_ton: the developer portal or the API website?
[18:23] <ayr_ton> mhall119, the developer portal
[18:24] <kyleNItz> can someone post the link to the development version of dev.u.com again?
[18:24] <mhall119> kyleNItz: it's at the top of the etherpad, do you have the etherpad open?
[18:24] <kyleNItz> ah, thanks
[18:26] <ayr_ton> mhall119, If yes, we can use something like http://yeoman.io/ for the webapps and http://apiary.io for api blueprint.
[18:28] <ayr_ton> mhall119, Okay
[18:54] <e8hffff> Who's going to rein in the app looks and quality.  personally I think many of the apps are straying off the conceptal path
[18:55] <e8hffff> ...as in the core apps
[18:55] <alex-abreu> kyleN, thanks for that ! :)
[18:55] <mhall119> e8hffff: we're going to try and get some design guidelines together, but ultimately the app developer decides what to do with their app
[18:55] <e8hffff> mhall119: ok good to know
[18:57] <e8hffff> mhall: wathcing your hangout live youtube at moment. wasn't sure if this was the channel to ask questions or not.
[18:58] <mhall119> e8hffff: it is, but we're almost out of time
[18:58] <alex-abreu> mhall119, great explanation
[18:58] <alex-abreu> mhall119, a webapp is basically passive from the point of view of the website
[18:58] <e8hffff> mhall: I get OpenID errors in the offical ubuntu URL
[18:58] <alex-abreu> mhall119, and the concept is orthongonal to the one of the available apis
[18:59] <e8hffff> mhall: anyway no need to reply.  concentrate on what you're doing
[19:00] <e8hffff> I agree with the guy talking about app and webapps. The Youtube Apps is lost in that it's not dedicated enough.
[19:01] <sethj> I think there's a difference in the use point of view too.
[19:01] <alex-abreu> mhall119, on thursday there should be a session on html5 apps
[19:02] <dinkometalac_> e8hffff, youtube app can be done as soon as HTML5 video i supported in Ubuntu touch
[19:02] <dinkometalac_> right now, we cannot do anything about that
[19:02] <e8hffff> the priority should obviously to promote real qml apps
[19:02] <dinkometalac_> just look what happened to MS
[19:02] <dinkometalac_> and their app for wp8
[19:02] <mhall119> e8hffff: HTML5 and QML are equals on Ubuntu Touch
[19:03] <popey> awesome
[19:03] <e8hffff> mhall: yeah as in they share js, but the end results are noticable
[19:04] <e8hffff> btw I haven't done much cordova coding.
[19:05] <zyga> hi
[19:06] <e8hffff> I get the argument though as in different  approaches using the same gears
[19:06] <e8hffff> To me webapps = webkit with interfaces to system
[19:07] <mojo706> e8hffff, you mean on Ubuntu Touch or Webapps in general
[19:08] <e8hffff> general.  It's ahrd to draw lines since qml is using similar gears
[19:08] <mhall119> alright, time to start the API website session
[19:08] <e8hffff> that was to mojo
[19:08] <mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/87949fb860456f85049ef5a0cf5e9b3f75c47b4f?authuser=1&hl=en for anybody who would like to join
[19:09] <e8hffff> Ubuntu guys a criticism is you shoudl eb using the email dabase more you got when people signed up on news release of Ubuntuu touch
[19:11] <zyga> video live
[19:11] <sethj_> I see you
[19:11] <zyga> last time the lag was 4 minutes
[19:12] <zyga> ah
[19:12] <zyga> I just heard you
[19:12] <zyga> cool
[19:12] <e8hffff> anyway cheers.  Thanks for the works and efforts.  Seems like milestones are being had and it's getting exciting..  bye...
[19:13] <zyga> where is the site?
[19:13] <zyga> ah, thanks
[19:14]  * zyga joins the etherpad team
[19:15]  * zyga still doesn't see etherpad :/
[19:15] <zyga> but that's ok
[19:15] <mhall119> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad
[19:15] <mhall119> http://91.189.93.66:8080/Ubuntu/13.04/Ubuntu.Components/Button/
[19:15] <zyga> thanks
[19:16] <zyga> cool!
[19:16] <mhall119> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperNetwork
[19:16] <zyga> yeah
[19:16] <zyga> it's pretty neat
[19:16] <sethj> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad/+join
[19:16] <mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/87949fb860456f85049ef5a0cf5e9b3f75c47b4f?authuser=1&hl=en
[19:16] <zyga> it looks great
[19:17] <sethj> I had to log out of lp/SSO and log back in before I saw the etherpad.
[19:17] <sethj> just fyi
[19:17] <zyga> I'm interested in one thing, do you envison that the way this consumes content could be adapted to, say, consume docs for python code?
[19:18] <zyga> I'm interested in this very much then!
[19:18] <zyga> you broke up after "opposite"
[19:19] <mhall119> zyga: can you hear me now?
[19:19] <zyga> yeah
[19:19] <zyga> it's ok
[19:19] <zyga> it was just for a few seconds
[19:19] <sethj> all fine here
[19:21] <micah2> QUESTION: Will the new api webpages include a visual example of visual elements?
[19:27] <zyga> where is the code?
[19:43] <zyga> mhall119: cool, I will
[19:47] <zyga> woot
[19:47] <zyga> thanks for asking, I usually just silently ignore when people pronounce my name in funny ways :)
[19:49] <zyga> mhall119: if you can assume we have python2.7 we can drop argparse from requiremetns
[19:49] <zyga> mhall119: what is the better channel to talk about this?
[19:49] <mhall119> zyga: I won't guarantee that I won't pronounce it in funny ways still
[19:49] <zyga> :D
[19:49] <mhall119> #ubuntu-app-devel
[20:00] <GuidoPallemans> its up