[16:03]  * slangasek waves
[16:03]  * ogra_ shores
[16:03] <slangasek> sergiusens (et al): https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/28b3927907ca51848ffbadc659fa11ee50731df0
[16:04] <sergiusens> ty
[16:05] <sergiusens> doanac`: hey, want to join video?
[16:05] <doanac`> sergiusens: sure. will do
[16:05] <sergiusens> doanac`: I want to see your face
[16:05] <sergiusens> :-)
[16:10] <cjohnston> hrm.. toolbox doesnt appear working
[16:10] <ogra_> works for me
[16:11] <cjohnston> I see that..  I'm not sure why. I just get an empty frame
[16:11] <ogra_> id did quite some download stuff for me when i enabled it
[16:14] <barry> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-system-image/+bug/1192575
[16:14] <udsbotu> Launchpad bug 1192575 in Ubuntu system image "Support for changing channels and reinstalling" [Wishlist,Triaged]
[16:14] <xnox> barry: please mute your fan =))))
[16:15] <xnox> barry: or is it hot? =)
[16:15] <barry> xnox: it's a warm day, yes :)
[16:15]  * barry muted his mic
[16:16] <xnox> barry: maybe it's not your fan after all =)
[16:17] <barry> xnox: yeah, it seems quiet enough here, but you never know how it's coming over the mic
[16:22] <xnox> sergiusens: mk-sbuild --arch armhf should be able to bootstrap an armhf chroot with qemu-static emulator.
[16:22] <xnox> sergiusens: maybe we should be able to support bootstrapping something like that but with ubuntu-sdk & ubuntu-touch ?
[16:23] <ogra_> xnox, i'm already working on rootstock-ng :)
[16:23] <ogra_> (which will wrap around live-build)
[16:23] <xnox>  /o\
[16:24] <xnox> sergiusens: it will be "native" build, but under qemu. Or pre-download last rootfs image =)
[16:24] <xnox> sergiusens: chroot into-that apt-get install *-dev
[16:25] <sergiusens> xnox: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/28b3927907ca51848ffbadc659fa11ee50731df0
[16:25] <xnox> =)))
[16:25] <xnox> there is so much lag. I'm guessing I am 4-5 minutes behind.
[16:26] <slangasek> yeah, typical lag to broadcast is at least 2 min :/
[16:27] <asac> cant we ship the -dev parts stripped to a separate zip next to the normal image?
[16:27] <asac> so you can just combine the two?
[16:27] <ogra_> asac, not sure that works with the system-image concept
[16:27] <ogra_> but it might indeed be enhanceable i that direction
[16:27] <asac> well, phablet-flash can make it work :)
[16:27] <asac> i was hopeing
[16:28] <ogra_> thats a matter of producing that img (it wont be a zip) and signing it
[16:28] <asac> yeah and i would love to see image testing at upstream merger level... but we need the emulator for that to scale
[16:30] <xnox> system-image upgrade should be able to upgrade from normal image to a -dev image.
[16:30] <xnox> if we want to spend time producing those.
[16:30] <ogra_> xnox, yeah, but someone still has to produce it
[16:30] <barry> well.  switching channels probably requires a full upgrade
[16:31] <asac> as long as if we just get a single -dev .zip that can be applied on top of the others it feels good.
[16:31] <slangasek> I think I've failed to understand the use case for a -dev image
[16:32] <slangasek> as opposed to just supporting cross -dev environments well and properly
[16:32] <ogra_> slangasek, the system image wont allow apt
[16:32] <asac> i would really love to get -dev and -dbg parts separated... e.g. not an additional image, but rather an addon
[16:32] <slangasek> ogra_: obviously - but why do you care about putting -dev packages on the device?
[16:32] <ogra_> slangasek, even in writable mode it will be extremely limited since the partition/loopimg size is to small
[16:33] <ogra_> so you wont be able to install -dev packages in case you want to work on the plumbing of the image
[16:33] <slangasek> still not seeing why you would do that on the device
[16:33] <ogra_> asac, how do you define which dbgsym packages are in that "addon"
[16:33] <asac> ogra_: the ones in the image?
[16:33] <ogra_> asac, putting them all in will be to big to even install it
[16:33] <asac> matching those
[16:34] <asac> ogra_: yeah dbgsym is a bit of an issue because of size
[16:34] <slangasek> likewise for -dbgsyms, cross-retracing is a better solution (and aligns with what we're already doing for errors.u.c)
[16:34] <ogra_> right
[16:34] <asac> the other reason to get the -dev stuff out as a part
[16:34] <asac> is taht we can then also use that to cross build against
[16:35] <ogra_> dont have the -dev stuff, point people wanting it to cdimage to use the zip, be done
[16:35] <slangasek> is that specifically for native click packages?
[16:35] <asac> slangasek: yeah i think its for that
[16:35] <slangasek> ok
[16:35] <asac> primarily
[16:36] <asac> secondarily it might also be useful for other folks hacking around the basesystem
[16:36] <slangasek> I don't think the second is true
[16:37] <slangasek> because hacking around the base system implies an awful lot of -dev packages which we wouldn't want to pull in as part of any normal SDK
[16:37] <plars> yeah, we noticed, it's already caused us a few issues on testing that the image size is so small
[16:38] <asac> slangasek: so MIR folks for instance are suppsoed to restrict themselves to platform api and a few other things. they could use this in a useful manner. but as i said, lets focus on the primary case for now
[16:38] <asac> I really dont like starting a second image
[16:38] <asac> and supporting that
[16:39] <ogra_> asac, well we have two images today :)
[16:39] <asac> at least for now we dont have the capacity
[16:39] <ogra_> asac, well we have two images today :)
[16:39] <plars> asac: it sounds to me like ogra_ is suggesting that we use the existing (non-upgrade) images as the dev image
[16:39] <asac> ogra_: which ones?
[16:39] <ogra_> asac, the cdimage armhf-zip and the sysrem-image.u.c image
[16:39] <plars> since they are already easy to add whatever you need to them
[16:40] <asac> ogra_: right and we are happy to kill the cdimage one
[16:40] <asac> we dont really support system-iamge yet
[16:40] <ogra_> asac, that wont happen, it is the input for the system image
[16:40] <asac> explain to me that later
[16:40] <ogra_> system image requires it to exist
[16:40] <asac> i am sure i dont want a separate image
[16:40] <xnox> slangasek: excluding qt itself.
[16:40] <ogra_> asac, we do
[16:40] <asac> that is an official part of our SDK story
[16:40] <ogra_> asac, unless we completely start from scratch withj the system images
[16:40] <asac> yeah i will stay out :)
[16:41] <asac> i think i agree with slangasek's reasoning - for most parts
[16:51] <xnox> sergiusens: so far the deb-src package should be getting inline with the export.tar.gz we publish on phablet.ubuntu.com
[16:51] <ogra_> xnox, yay
[16:51] <xnox> sergiusens: once we get there. People can either do apt-get source android or fetch the tarball to hack on your own device.
[16:51] <xnox> ogra_: almost the same tree.
[16:52] <ogra_> xnox, i know ... but "almost" :)
[16:52] <xnox> ogra_: but yeah, me and rsalveti should merge all up to use the _same_ one.
[16:52] <ogra_> right
[16:52] <rsalveti> yeah
[16:52] <xnox> sergiusens: they can use $ repo tool to checkout and build from that. or to build from a tarball.
[16:52] <xnox> sergiusens: both should be the same.
[16:53] <xnox> sergiusens: repo tool is easier / nicer for developer. Tarball is faster to build as a package.
[16:53] <rsalveti> yeah, once we make both the same, we should be good
[16:53]  * ogra_ would use the UDD branch of the android package 
[16:54] <rsalveti> ogra_: right :P
[16:54] <ogra_> and send 100MB MPs to xnox  :)
[16:54] <ogra_> *that* will test launchpad :)
[16:55] <plars> I don't think it'll take so long, I think we need to rework provision so that we can use it without trying to add anything to the system images (lack of space issue)
[16:55] <plars> currently it still tries to add utah, which is unnecessary when running in host-based mode
[16:55] <xnox> ogra_: launchpad can handle gcc bzr tree, so it should be able to handle anything.
[16:57] <slangasek> xnox, rsalveti: what blocks this, other than a git merge from one branch to the other and declaring it The One? :)
[16:58] <xnox> slangasek: rebasing a few patches from the package; trimming more stuff from the export tarball.
[16:58] <xnox> s/package/archive package/
[17:00] <plars> thanks!
[17:00] <slangasek> xnox: timeline for this to happen?  The longer it goes unmerged...
[17:00] <asac> thanks sergiusens. well done! :)
[17:00] <rsalveti> slangasek: I changed phablet.u.c to export the tarball already
[17:00] <sergiusens> thanks
[17:00] <rsalveti> now I just need to sync with xnox to change the package to use that tarball instead
[17:01] <xnox> slangasek: let me that over this lunch hour?! =)
[17:01] <slangasek> ok :D
[17:01] <slangasek> oh, it's lunchtime!
[18:04] <slangasek> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/508941a4e49fdba6f0cdf553434bf845ba180889
[18:05] <Laney> o/
[18:05] <xnox> infinity: http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-foundations-t-release-schedule
[18:06] <xnox> infinity: unless you release on Wednesday =)
[18:07] <xnox> infinity: it can still be 13.04
[18:07] <xnox> (the 30th)
[18:07] <barry> +1
[18:08] <skellat> January 30, 2014 then?
[18:08] <Laney> 2 weeks before seems ok to me
[18:08] <xnox> infinity: are you sure the T schedule is copy&paste of Saucy, it was last modified in 2011, before raring/saucy style milestones.
[18:10] <infinity> xnox: Last modified when now?
[18:10] <infinity> TSeries/ReleaseSchedule (last edited 2013-08-26 21:27:33 by adconrad
[18:10] <skellat> I'm sitting in for Xubuntu if that matters
[18:11] <infinity> Right, updated the pas.
[18:11] <infinity> pad*
[18:12] <skellat> HAHAHAHA
[18:15] <skellat> How about we drop Alpha 1/Alpha 2 in favor of Alpha on January 16th?
[18:18] <gQuigs> 1 week earlier I think is good enough
[18:19] <Laney> there's an extra week on beta 1 -> final beta freeze in T
[18:20] <cjohnston> slangasek: for me knowledge it hasn't been decided
[18:20] <infinity> Laney: Which wiki page are you looking at?
[18:20] <skellat> PLEASE MOVE UDS
[18:20] <Laney> infinity: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TSeries/ReleaseSchedule vs https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule
[18:20] <skellat> US has elections on November 5th
[18:20] <Laney> 20 -> 23 vs 19 -> 21
[18:21] <gQuigs> so is beta going to pushed to around the 8th, instead of pushed back to march?
[18:21] <skellat> Especially since I have 13 hours to serve as a poll judge on November 5th
[18:22] <knome> :)
[18:22] <slangasek> gQuigs: no, everything would be pushed back a week, including the beta
[18:23] <infinity> Laney: Yeah, we found the extra week after looking twice.  A whole room full of blind people.  An extra week there for an LTS probably isn't a bad thing, though.
[18:23] <Laney> yes, the lag is irritating
[18:26] <Laney> We could use the week to have a bigger gap between beta and final freeze, to reflect on anything that comes up there, for example
[18:27]  * Laney gets back tae cookin
[18:37] <infinity> Okay, schedule updated to match what was discussed in the session.
[18:37] <infinity> Plus, I did s/14.04/14.04 LTS/
[18:49] <slangasek> infinity: \o/
[19:06] <ogasawara> slangasek: can you hit me with the hangout when you have it?
[19:06] <slangasek> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/81ce6e73ff9c8415f5cabc935690fc3115e0bd38
[19:08] <xnox> live \o/
[19:16] <arges> bjf: infinity : ack from this end
[19:20] <lool> I'm good
[19:20] <lool> ogasawara: keep in mind there's a delay between video stream and IRC
[19:20] <ogasawara> oops, true
[19:21] <lool> just got the question of whether there were any questions :-)
[19:21] <ogasawara> well, if there are any questions, ping me :)
[19:21] <lool> ogasawara: anyway all good, didn't have anything to raise  :-)