/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/28/#ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.txt

=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/28/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
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=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | AppDev Roundtable - Wed | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21926/appdev-roundtable-wed/
mhall119dpm: and anybody else who wants to join the roundtable: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/158f0544c1a2389ef0a0fd77846d67028b645e4b?authuser=1&hl=en13:57
dpmthanks mhall119, setting up another device to try to join in13:58
mhall119popey: want to join the roundtable hangout?14:01
rschrollyour on14:03
kunal_yes, able to see14:04
dinkometalaconly michael?14:04
mhall119https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/158f0544c1a2389ef0a0fd77846d67028b645e4b?authuser=1&hl=en14:04
mhall119dpm: popey:  either of you joining?14:10
dpmmhall119, trying now14:10
rschrollFollowup on file access from yesterday14:11
rschrollI asked on ubuntu-security, and was pointed to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Specifications/ApplicationConfinement/Manifest14:11
rschrollThis looks like what mhall was suggesting14:11
rschrollnot what rickspencer was talking about14:11
rschrollSo, what's the deal here?14:12
GuidoPallemansIs it currently possible to download files to disk? how will this be implemented?14:13
rschrollThis is still in development, though?14:14
rschrollFor the purposes of the app showdown, do I just worry about the manifest?14:14
GuidoPallemansok, thanks!14:15
popeymhall119: on the weather app design call14:15
GuidoPallemanssounds cool14:15
mhall119kenvandine14:15
GuidoPallemanshaven't seen it yet14:15
GuidoPallemansill look for the session14:15
GuidoPallemanscan't seem to find it14:16
mhall119http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21909/foundations-s-touch-download-service/14:17
GuidoPallemansMaybe some sessions should only be half an hour long, this way you can still have you and your colleuge on the same session and there will be more questions :D14:17
rschrollI have a bunch of sorta specific questions; don't know if they're appropriate here14:18
mhall119rschroll: may as well ask14:18
GuidoPallemansoh, yeah, it's not in appdev14:18
GuidoPallemansbookmarked it though14:18
rschrollHow do you use Arguments with qmlscene?  I get both args for the app and qmlscene mixed together.14:19
rschrollhttp://askubuntu.com/questions/336083/how-to-use-arguments-in-qml-without-getting-qmlscene-arguments14:19
mhall119rschroll: can't you just ignore them?14:20
rschrollyes, but I have to decide whether an input is for me or for qmlscene14:21
rschrollIt works, but I thought I was missing a better way14:21
rschrollAnother specific question: Is it possible to style the options in a ValueSelector?  I can copy the code for it and apply the styling I want, but that seems ugly.14:24
rschrollIs there a way to modify the styling of an existing selector, or to subclass the ValueSelector?14:25
mhall119rschroll: might be better to ask in #ubuntu-touch where the sdk developers reside14:25
rschrollok14:25
GuidoPallemansWill there be an API that enables you to do an action every x minutes while your app isn't running? Like checking if you have a mail or a message, or...14:37
kunal_I was wondering if we have any contacts related API14:37
GuidoPallemansok, thanks14:39
kunal_I mean dialog box for choosing contact14:40
kunal_ok14:41
GuidoPallemansthe nexus 4 dropped in price today, will this have any effect on the prizes of the showdown?  ^^14:42
ThankyouMrMinermhall119: your fan that is reflected in the picture frame is hypnotizing me :)14:42
mhall119better?14:42
ThankyouMrMinernot sure lag ...14:43
ThankyouMrMineryes much better :)14:44
GuidoPallemansI don't want my shitty gitHub client on everybody's phone!14:45
GuidoPallemanshahaha14:46
wellsblol14:46
GuidoPallemansIt's available immediately actually14:50
mhall119immediately?  It used to take youtube a while to process14:50
popeyI look forward to going back and re-living mhall119's grandma joke14:51
mhall119:P14:51
rschrollmhall119: Thanks for the help!14:51
GuidoPallemanswill some people of the design team be joining us now?14:59
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Visual design guide for Apps | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21924/appdev-1308-visual-design-guide/
mhall119https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/a420dc3ec7461b0ef0d414fd55625834325d12ad?authuser=1&hl=en15:05
GuidoPallemansup15:05
netcurliwe can see you15:05
GuidoPallemanshave you guys seen the sidebar component? What are your thoughts on that?15:06
swordfishYep...15:06
GuidoPallemansthe sidebar component is visible in the file manager15:06
mhall119GuidoPallemans: only in desktop mode15:07
GuidoPallemansindeed, but I always include a button to view the contents of the sidebar, is this ok from a design point of view?15:08
aquariusI missed the first part of this talk :(15:17
WebbyITaquarius, they are recorded, so you can watch later on youtube ;)15:18
kunal_do we have iconography ? how icons should look like for toolbar and else where15:18
aquariusThere was suggestion from katie at the end about how the gradient-background approach is really intended for the ritual apps. Is there guidance on what non-ritual apps (i.e., most of them) should be doing? I saw something about "the medium theme" -- is that avaialble?15:19
aquariusalso, I agree with kunal_ -- having a standard set of icons for common toolbar actions -- refresh, about, restart, new game, that sort of thing -- would be really nice15:19
jonobaconQUESTION: I would love to see apps use realistic components (e.g. a notepad app look like a real notepad)...Apple does this well - does the team have any guidance on this?15:20
jonobaconmore specifically, can we get some guidelines for how to use realistic looking visual elements15:20
aquariusagreed with mhall119 -- there are lots of examples of how the design team have chosen the visual design for specific apps, but not *why* those were chosen. :)15:21
aquariusjonobacon, just say no to skeuomorphism ;)15:21
GuidoPallemanson the phone, the sidebar is hidden, but accessible through a menu button (at least in my app)15:21
justForQuestionsQUESTION:  are they any guide lines for when a user should use a Coverflow or a listview or a gridView or a Path/SVGView  ect15:22
justForQuestionsexample taking the listview in music app and having in coverflow ect15:23
justForQuestionsdynamically changing.15:24
aquariusahem. "Do, well, whatever you want!" is not guidance, katie ;-)15:24
GuidoPallemansnot much engineers use pinterest though15:25
aquariusGuidoPallemans, should do more, though. Pinterest is an *excellent* source of design inspiration.15:25
jonobaconmhall119: I think what we could do with help from the design team on is a set of guidelines for how people can add visual flourish without dumping a gradient in there15:26
jonobaconcan we ask the team to commit to making some guidelines for this15:26
aquariusagreed with jonobacon.15:26
jonobaconotherwise I worry we will end up with a tonne of gradient apps :-)15:26
Qb1t3rWhat happened with the "Locally Integrated Menu - LID" idea for desktop? LID is dead for convergence apps? How the desktop menu will correspond to the phone/tablet menu in convergence app?15:27
aquariuswe will. Because currently it's easy to have (a) a grey app or (b) a gradient, and that's it. We are not at all free to lay out the app how we want -- the header has to be at the top, with a stock font size, etc -- so colour is one of the big ways to differentiate.15:27
GuidoPallemansQUESTION I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but I saw the locker-type lock (where you highlight numbers by sliding around a circle), and thought it was really nice, will this be implemented?15:29
jonobaconmhall119: I think the challenge app devs face is that they need a set of more prescriptive guidelines from the design team - general approaches design are hard for people who don't have design experience - can we ask the design team to commit to expanding the set of app guidelines that cover the topics outlines in this session?15:29
michelRAn exemple of expected guideline : "how to handle 'settings' panel ?" (a) as a tab (--> non modal)  (b) as a special page (--> called from the toolbar, modal)15:30
aquariusPerhaps something that would be useful is the design team's interpretation of an app which is *not* a ritual app. At the moment all the visual design we've seen is for the ritual apps, so that's all that everyone has to copy.15:30
jonobaconaquarius: +115:30
* WebbyIT think that is the most interesting session until now15:30
jonobaconmuch as it pains me to agree with you :-)15:31
jonobaconLOL15:31
* aquarius grins15:31
WebbyITahahaha15:31
aquariusThe design blog post about visual exploration is http://design.canonical.com/2013/07/shorts-visual-exploration/15:33
justForQuestionsQuestion: are there any  icons / anything that you guys(designers) that is in QML ?  example using your examples as real world examples.  some developers have trouble cuttin up pictures ect.15:34
GuidoPallemansohh that's a shame15:34
justForQuestionsso like when designing a page keep icons and other things in there own file15:34
justForQuestionsmake a branch ect15:34
GuidoPallemansmaybe there should be a weekly hangout where an app, where the design guys talk about an app, how it can be done better, and/or a developer can ask for advice and defend his design solutions etc.15:35
jonobaconmhall119: what is the hangout URL?15:35
jonobaconwould like to join15:35
GuidoPallemanswhoops brain fart15:36
netcurlihttps://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/a420dc3ec7461b0ef0d414fd55625834325d12ad?authuser=1&hl=en15:36
aquariusQUESTION: (also asked by kunal) will there be a standard set of icons for common toolbar actions -- refresh, about, restart, new game, that sort of thing, or should everyone be just choosing their own?15:36
michelRAny news on the "back" button ? days ago, Design Team said they were working on a new implementation requiring only one tap (instead of 2 now)15:38
mhall119justForQuestions: can you clarify your question about icons? I don't understand15:38
justForQuestionsmhall119:  Like the examples that are on the design page and for core apps.  If the icons and what not where in seperate files then the developer's life becomes easier.  and also for developers to play with the design that canonical has worked so hard on.  Would help with training I think15:40
GuidoPallemansa weekly clinic where the design guidelines get applied to an app will be great, even greater would be if developers can show their own designs and ask questions around that15:49
aquariusooh, cool, there's a toolbar action icon set? making those available would be excellent!15:53
GuidoPallemans /usr/share/icons/ubuntu-mobile15:54
GuidoPallemansis that it?15:54
swordfishGuidoPallemans: I think it is... Or at least I hope, since it's what I'm using :D15:55
GuidoPallemansyeah me too15:56
GuidoPallemansalso on desktop15:56
GuidoPallemansmhall119: katie I was referring to these: http://imgur.com/qGZlaeC15:57
aquariusthanks, katie et al.15:58
aquariuskatie, one other question: you have a high-res image of a "generic" mobile phone, I think (the one used in all the pictures at http://design.canonical.com/2013/07/shorts-visual-exploration/). Is that asset available to everyone else so we can make nice looking mockups too? :-) /cc mhall11916:00
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Core Apps Review | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21953/appdev-1308-coreapps-review/
mhall119aquarius: I also asked victorp if he had any of the Edge16:00
mhall119no reply yet though16:00
aquariusmhall119, yeah -- having some would be nice for our mockup-y thing :)16:01
mhall119agreed16:01
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* popey waves to mhall119 16:04
mhall119popey: getting it setup16:04
mhall119https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/9fe4244b49578122ad1761a9b2734a41a3f03ea4?authuser=1&hl=en for anybody who wants to join the fishbowl16:04
popeyhehe16:08
mhall119popey: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/731ba92244eff4fa4e63dea732e20d3b55ae333b?authuser=1&hl=en16:09
timpI just like to watch :) but I don't see the video yet16:09
balloonsI'll be trying to listen to a couple sessions16:09
mhall119dpm: dude, you gotta tell me when you move sessions, I started the wrong one16:09
timpok the video is starting16:10
timpah no it says starting soon16:10
* WebbyIT is interesting to listening16:10
popeyhttp://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-appdev-1308-coreapps-review16:10
dpmmhall119, ah, sorry, I generally do, we had to change it so that popey could participate. Sorry Mike, I was doing too many things at the same time16:11
mhall119timp: should be live now16:11
WebbyITyes, I can see you16:11
timpmhall119: now you're live16:11
timpmhall119: ahh, you're all alone? :(16:11
timpmhall119: oh you are not alone, but I don't see the thumbnails at the bottom16:11
mhall119yeah, the broadcast only shows one person at a time16:12
timppopey: way to go. You look like a shampoo commercial with the wind in your hair :)16:12
timpI don't see an etherpad in firefox16:14
mhall119timp: try opening http://pad.ubuntu.com in a separate tab and logging in, then go back to the summit page16:15
timpmhall119: that works. thanks.16:16
mojo706that weather app looks great16:32
mhall119mojo706: it really does, doesn't it?16:32
mojo706yes16:34
GuidoPallemanscan you show that again? it wasnt on the big screen16:38
mojo706could you show that again16:38
mojo706yeah we couldn't see it properly16:38
GuidoPallemansit isnt on the big screen, you should say something16:39
mojo706very nice16:39
GuidoPallemansits ok16:39
toshowill be there any time soon Ubuntu Touch UI Kit for Gimp, Inkscape, Photoshop or Illustrator. and prototyping tool like  -http://jaunesarmiento.me/fries/16:40
GuidoPallemansmichael do you have the source? can you demo it?16:40
mhall119GuidoPallemans: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-rssreader-app16:41
mojo706markdown for doc viewer? and zsh?16:44
GuidoPallemansthat behaviour should be added to the keyboard16:45
mhall119GuidoPallemans: what behavior?16:46
GuidoPallemansthe arrow behaviour in the console app16:46
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bzoltanping mhall11916:53
mhall119bzoltan: pong16:53
bzoltanmhall119:  what time the SDK porting session starts?16:53
mhall119bzoltan: later today, it was moved16:54
bzoltanmhall119: is this schedule up to date? http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/2013-08-28/display?16:54
mhall119bzoltan: should be, refresh to make sure you have the latest16:55
bzoltanmhall119:  OK, so it starts in an hour16:55
timpfor some reason I thought it would start now16:56
popeynice one dpm mhall11916:56
bzoltanmhall119:  I try to make it, but 9pm here might be tricky :) I just put the kids to sleep16:56
popeyLunchtime!16:56
popey:D16:56
bzoltanpopey:  LOL :) 8pm, late dinner time16:56
dpmthanks popey, mhall11916:57
dpmor early breakfast16:57
timpshouldn't every second vUDS be scheduled according to a European timezone? :)16:57
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dpmtimp, yeah, it kind of slipped off, but as someone living in Europe, I'll make sure to raise it next time we plan UDS :)16:58
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/28/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
bzoltantimp, dpm:  regardless how much I love my own TZ, I think it is the audience and target group what counts ... if the contributors are mostly in the US timezones then we should adopt to them.17:04
testoThere is no calendar since Evolution is not installed17:13
VJhi17:21
VJhello17:21
VJMickael17:21
VJHello any 1 there ?17:22
WebbyIThi VJ17:23
VJHey webbyIT , i am newbe in Linux world , really exited so can you like give me some advise for startups ?17:24
WebbyITVJ, for support go to #ubuntu17:24
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | Porting the Ubuntu SDK to Windows and Mac | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21917/appdev-1308-sdk-porting/
zyga_hi18:01
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mhall119hello18:01
ayr_tonmhall119, o/18:02
mhall119https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/fd996734764b0bc880a1eb44f2066f60ccb38848?authuser=1&hl=en please join the fishbowl if you're interested in this session18:05
dobeyit's streaming18:06
zygait's up18:06
sethjyou're live18:06
ayr_tonok18:07
dobeyQUESTION: what about the APIs which will be on Ubuntu, such as online-accounts? would they be ported too?18:11
LinkedLibMessDepends if the libs are on machine or allowed on the machine (qt creator stuff)18:14
LinkedLibMessany linked lib that is not on machine is going to make qtcreator not running18:15
dobeyit's not that simple18:15
mmccHi - I have USB bridging working OK (with a couple of minor convenience bugs) on OSX host with a virtualbox guest, and have been working on touch apps that way.18:16
LinkedLibMessshould build one that uses installbuilder just like qt does and that could all be one with links and what not as long as they run on doz18:16
LinkedLibMessthat is how sailfish does it also18:17
mmccI just heard mhall ask if qtcreator and adb works over USB from a guest - this works OK for me from virtualbox18:17
mhall119thanks mmcc18:17
mmccyes, flashing is a bit of a dance18:18
LinkedLibMessanother thing is some of the scripts that are in the sdk are wrote in bash and not sure about windows and bash (have used in years )18:18
LinkedLibMesshove not *18:18
dobeyi would stay away from xcode or visual studio18:19
mmccavoid avoid xcode18:19
dobeyyou'd basically have to embed qtcreator itself, to be useful18:19
mmcc(this from a longtime xcode user)18:19
dobeyotherwise you won't have any UI design tool really18:19
mmccxcode would be very hostile to that kind of thing18:19
dobeyat which point you might as well just use emacs or vim18:20
LinkedLibMessThings like anything like dbus and metadata stuff would also be hard to port18:20
dobey dbus is ported. but making everything work right natively is hard18:21
LinkedLibMesswhat are the pro files for the qtcreator18:22
LinkedLibMesswhat is package called ?18:22
dobeymhall119: i'd just run everything in a vm18:22
dobeyLinkedLibMess: the .pro files are qmake description files18:22
mmccI agree, if you have to use a VM to run, might as well use it to develop, since this stuff is supposed to have a quick edit/run cycle18:23
dobeyi would just qemu everything18:23
dobeya touch image with the sdk included.18:23
mmcchaving a full desktop image to run the app is really helpful for debugging when you want to tail debug logs while you're testing18:25
dobeyand it's probably eaiser to just install ubuntu in virtualbox or vmware and just develop on ubuntu in a vm18:25
dobey(like some developers i know do)I18:26
mmccI do that. It works* now. (* except for some 3d accel issues when running QML)18:26
dobeyi think they would be fine18:27
dobeyyou could, if you use vmware fusion or something18:27
dobeyand cutting/pasting between vm and host is easy as well18:28
mmccvirtualbox has a rootless thing too18:28
dobeyand host<->vm disk access is pretty easy18:28
LinkedLibMessBut what about the plugins that Ubuntu is using one can launch a vm from qtcreator real easy but having the plugins and what not that are only used by qtcreator be crossplatform ie the linked libs18:28
dobeyanyone writing android apps is already doing it all in a vm anyway ;)18:28
mmcccoding in qtcreator inside the VM and using a mac email client is not bad. I do that18:28
LinkedLibMessonly for windows and mac ^^ tgat is with install builder18:28
LinkedLibMesscoding on mac and using vm to test apps is the way to go18:29
mmccpremade VM images is most convenient18:30
LinkedLibMesscorrect but other company's do it so why not canonical ?18:30
dobeyother companies do what?18:30
LinkedLibMessas long as the libs are on windows qtcreator should run18:31
LinkedLibMessdobey: qt is one themselfs18:31
mhall119LinkedLibMess: the question will be how much work it is to get all of the libs and eternal executables on windows and osx18:32
LinkedLibMessit all depends on what is used to make the qtcreator plugins for Ubuntu if them libs are there on doz or osx then it will work18:32
LinkedLibMessmhall119: none at all make installbuilder18:32
mhall119installbuilder?18:32
dobeythe qml components are an issue as well as the "plug-ins" for qtcreator itself18:32
LinkedLibMessinstallbuilder packages for different platforms it is what sailfish and also qt themselfs18:33
LinkedLibMessmhall119: ^^18:33
mhall119LinkedLibMess: it's not jus packaging that's a concern18:33
dpmI was just saying, with VM's, we'd probably have to offer images for x86 and amd64 as well?18:33
LinkedLibMessbut it would all be slow18:33
LinkedLibMessif everything is in a vm things will be slow18:34
dobeynot if you have a core i7 377018:34
zygadpm: I think we can be okay with just x8618:34
dobeyand 16GB RAM18:34
mojo706dobey, hehehe18:34
dobeyall my VMs are fast :)18:34
mmcceven less beefy systems are OK as long as the 3d is working18:34
LinkedLibMessthere is no reason why one can not use doz with qtcreator and then launch vm from qtcreator on the run button that pushs (app) to  vmmachine18:35
LinkedLibMessbut it again is all about if the libs can be compiled on doz and osx18:35
dobeythere are plenty of reasons you can't do that18:35
mojo706extending eclipse seems better18:36
mmccdoesn't qtcreator actually load QML components when in design mode? which means the components need to load their compiled plugins?18:36
LinkedLibMessdobey: like what ?18:36
dobeyqtcreator needs the qml components to exist as well18:36
dobeymmcc: yes18:36
LinkedLibMessnot if they are on the VM dobey18:36
dobeymmcc: also, when doing autocomplete18:36
mojo706and have an emulator18:36
mmccdobey: autocomplete might be handled by that txt .qmltypes file18:36
LinkedLibMessthough there would be some issues with highlighting and what not but not that bad18:37
dobeymmcc: it also does error checking, so that if it can't load it, then it complains about it18:37
dobeymmcc: which would be very annoying18:37
mmccdobey: right18:37
LinkedLibMesssomeone give me windows licence and I will do it18:37
LinkedLibMesslol18:37
mmccfolks, I have to run early, but I will volunteer to test out VM images on OS X. I'm mike.mccracken@canonical.18:38
dobeyi run qtcreator in a vm without video accel and it was fast18:38
dobeyqmlscene runs slower natively on my laptop than it did in my vm without accel :(18:38
LinkedLibMessI have also run qtcreator for years I know for sure that it is slow with things like 3d and gl and stuff like that18:38
mmccdobey: it's surely due to some combination of my hardware and vbox running on OS X host  :)18:38
mmcc('it' being the problems I mentioned with 3d)18:39
dobeymmcc: your issues, yes :)18:39
mojo706also state the specs that need to run the vms18:39
dobeyyeah, we ship python on win/mac18:40
LinkedLibMessIf sailfish can do Ubuntu can do it18:40
dobeysailfish != ubuntu18:40
dobeyapple != orange18:40
LinkedLibMesslook for yourselfs they have linux mac and windows18:40
LinkedLibMessthe point is it is crossplatform18:40
dobeyyes, qt itself is cross platform18:41
LinkedLibMessyes it uses vm on all and uses installbuilder to build the sdk18:41
LinkedLibMessit is shipped with the sdk18:42
LinkedLibMessit is the same for windows and osx18:42
LinkedLibMessit can DL other images like armel7 and what not also18:42
LinkedLibMessvia script18:43
dobeyugh. google really needs to run that gigabit fiber to their data centers, rather than kansas city18:43
LinkedLibMessinstall builder ..   http://installbuilder.bitrock.com/18:43
dobeypackaging isn't an issue18:44
dobeythat's to build the installer, not the sdk18:44
LinkedLibMessmhall119: they package the libs with it if needed18:44
LinkedLibMessfor each one18:44
dobeywe use that to build the installer for ubuntu one too18:44
LinkedLibMessdobey: it was nice chatting with you :)18:46
LinkedLibMessjust wish I knew more about the linked libs that are linking making things that are not crossplatform18:46
loolI'm afraid I didn't follow this session18:46
loolSDK folks in the hangout?18:47
LinkedLibMesslike LIBS+= -L /usr/lib/something -lsomething18:47
dobeylool: mhall119 and zyga and dpm are yes18:47
dpmwe're lesser mortals18:47
dpmnot part of the SDK team18:47
zygahttps://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/fd996734764b0bc880a1eb44f2066f60ccb38848?authuser=1&hl=en18:47
mhall119https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/fd996734764b0bc880a1eb44f2066f60ccb38848?authuser=1&hl=en18:47
dobeyi can't join, because google+ seems to hate me today. i tried to join one earlier and got no video or audio once i joined :-/18:49
dobeyit's ok. people have to run osx to develop on ios :)18:49
LinkedLibMessQUESTION: what is package name for the SDK not ubuntu-ui-toolkit but qtcreator build ?18:50
mojo706dobey, no its still wrong18:50
dobeyLinkedLibMess: ubuntu-sdk18:50
mhall119LinkedLibMess: ubuntu-sdk is the metapackage18:50
LinkedLibMessthat is package name for that metapackage ?18:50
LinkedLibMessthanks18:51
LinkedLibMessqtcreator-plugin-ubuntuu << that is what I am looking for that metapackage I guess :)18:54
LinkedLibMessor offline installer ....18:55
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Track: App Development | App Developer Mode for image-based Ubuntu Touch | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21914/appdev-1308-app-developer-mode/
dobeythe bot lies19:00
mhall119the bot is right, it's us that are late19:01
zygathanks, interesting session!19:02
mojo706bye19:02
loolwho is opening the next hangout?19:05
cjwatsonmhall119 is the track lead, right?19:05
mhall119yes19:05
mhall119https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409?authuser=1&hl=en for joining the fish bowl, the more the merrier19:06
loolthanks!19:06
dholbachI'll just hang out here, my internet connection is not good enough today it seems :-(19:06
dholbachdid the hangout start already?19:07
doanac`no19:07
cjwatsondholbach: it's running but not live yet19:07
dholbachgo go go! :)19:08
cjwatsonit's on air now19:08
cjwatsonsupposedly19:08
rickspencer3o/19:08
loolhttps://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b40919:08
* tedg got video19:08
netcurlii can see you19:09
rickspencer3you're broadcating19:09
karniYou are broadcasting.19:09
ogra_you seem to do19:09
rickspencer3lool, can I join the hangout so I can ask my questions easier?19:09
mhall119rickspencer3: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409?authuser=1&hl=en19:09
dholbachwho's speaking second from the left? or can you turn on your lower third? :)19:14
cjwatsonThat was David Jordan, I believe19:15
cjwatsonI don't mean to be dismissive about the complex-dependencies case, but it's not one we can handle yet and I think it's important to get the things we can currently handle working well19:15
cjwatsondmj_nova1: (you?)19:16
dmj_nova1yes19:16
beunosergiusens, you look like you're in the witness protection programme19:16
dmj_nova1my G+ plugin died19:16
sergiusensbeuno: lol19:16
sergiusensbeuno: light?19:16
dholbachbeuno, HAHA19:17
gatox_beuno: heheh19:17
beunosergiusens, yes  :)19:17
dmj_nova1cjwatson: I'm fine with taking things one step at a time19:18
loolsomeone from SDK team joining?19:18
loolbzoltan: around?19:19
* ogra_ was surprised he isnt 19:19
ogra_since he owns the spec19:19
cjwatsondmj_nova1: the click spec does have a slot for supporting additional "frameworks" which is probably going to form part of a later solution to this19:20
cjwatsonwe deliberately excluded having complex dependencies though as then it's going to turn into .deb real quick19:20
beunoI can join19:20
beunowhat's the link?19:20
karnibeuno: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409?authuser=1&hl=en19:20
mhall119beuno: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409?authuser=1&hl=en19:20
dmj_nova1as a dev advocating for more complex apps (which will be necessary for having truly killer apps) and someone involved with a more complex application, it will be helpful to know where things are going, that it will be possible to extend the platform19:20
cjwatsonif it's complexity contained within a single application then bundling is viable; it's only a difficulty if you want to do lots of library sharing19:22
dmj_nova1and bundling complex dependencies is certainly not ideal19:22
dmj_nova1for instance with dmedia, bundling might work if we knew the user would only ever use a single dmedia-based application, but 15 dmedia instances running on the same system would be a nightmare19:23
cjwatsonwe've also talked about having a way to share code among click packages from a single origin19:23
cjwatsonwhich would require some extensions to apparmor profiles19:24
cjwatsonI'm reasonably confident we can do it :)19:24
ssweenyi'm not sure if this is 100% on-topic for this discussion but if an app requires a new online-accounts plugin how would a developer install it? would it have to go into the Ubuntu image as a .deb or will there be a click mechanism for it?19:27
mhall119ssweeny: good question19:27
dmj_nova1cjwatson: We should definitely have a conversation about how to enable app ecosystems to extend the platform19:27
cjwatsonYep.  But after 13.10 :-)19:28
* cjwatson <- a bit slammed19:28
cjwatsonssweeny: for 13.10, there are a couple of answers19:29
tedgIt would be cool to have SSH on the phone :-)19:29
cjwatsonssweeny: if it's something you can bundle in your app, do so19:29
mhall119cjwatson: I'm not sure it is19:29
cjwatsonone moment, typing :)19:29
cjwatsonssweeny: if it's an add-on to a system interface, and *if it can be apparmor-confined*, then you can have the system interface in question define a click hook that click packages can attach to19:29
ogra_rickspencer3, people wanting to really deeply hack into the system can use the flipped image... they are always there since they are an interim product we need for system images19:30
mhall119cjwatson: ssweeny: that's probably something we should have a separate discussion about19:30
ssweenycjwatson, right now those plugins are implemented as xml files dropped into a specific location on the filesystem19:30
loolmhall119: (sorry I have a hard time breaking the notes into questions/ideas/concerns)19:30
rickspencer3ogra_, or just go enter Read/Write mode, right?19:30
mhall119lool: no worries, I can clean it up later19:31
ogra_rickspencer3, thats still fairly restricted19:31
cjwatsonssweeny: if it can't be apparmor-confined, then you can't do it for 13.1019:31
rickspencer3ok19:31
rickspencer3thanks ogra_19:31
ssweenycjwatson, ok19:31
cjwatsonssweeny: if they can't execute arbitrary code (pure data), then you don't need confinement, just a click hook19:31
ssweenycjwatson, all they do is fill in values that online-accounts uses (API endpoints, keys, etc)19:32
cjwatsonssweeny: OK, then that can be done with a click hook.  Contact me out of band if doc/hooks.rst in the click source package isn't sufficient19:32
ssweenycjwatson, ok, will do. thanks!19:32
rickspencer3what happened when we are supposed to talk about technical details at UDS? ;)19:32
lool:-)19:32
cjwatson(I'm assuming you're a developer of the online-accounts package that would define this hook)19:32
dmj_nova1cjwatson: The pure containment is a good thing for reducing the amount of verification time (which is the reason for this stuff I believe), but there definitely should be a mechanism for distributing apps outside basic scope19:33
cjwatsondmj_nova1: we do have some slots in the code to build out this kind of thing in future19:34
tedgDo we need a setting in system settings to enable this stuff?19:34
sergiusenstedg: I would only say to enable ssh19:35
cjwatsonI think what we reached was a setting to enable ssh until the next reboot19:35
sergiusenstedg: but not the _system developer mode_19:35
cjwatson(backend: "service ssh start")19:35
tedgTo enable adb as well, no?19:35
tedgOr whatever19:35
tedgAh, okay.  yes19:35
dmj_nova1also, do you believe that end users will be able to access this read-write mode/switch from image-based updates on their purchased devices from an OEM/carrier?19:36
cjwatsonrickspencer3: ^- is that something you can speak to?19:37
rickspencer3cjwatson, yeah, but in another discussion right now19:38
tedgWon't it be the same as a PIN if you set it?19:41
tedgIf it's swipe, it should be null....19:41
tedgIf you set a PIN, it's the PIN.19:41
dmj_nova1novacut has some useful peer techniques19:41
tedgPerhaps only enable SSH if you have a PIN set?19:42
ogra_tedg, with swipe you indeed type in "swipe"19:42
tedgogra_, Hah, and then I get a phone from a German OEM and I won't be able to log in without the character map ;-)19:42
ogra_:D19:43
cjwatsontedg: If you have an open SSH server then you can brute-force the entire PIN space probably without the user noticing19:44
cjwatsonSo I cannot recommend using the PIN19:44
tedgcjwatson, Hmm, but I'd imagine that'll be the user account's password, no?19:45
cjwatsonI like this QR code idea19:45
cjwatsontedg: The SSH server doesn't necessarily have to have passwords enabled, especially not if we use this clever QR code idea suggested on the hangout19:45
ogra_cjwatson, ++19:45
tedgSorry, just got the QR code thing :-)19:45
beunothat's probably the first time I've heard someone smart say something good about QR codes19:45
tedgOkay, so disable passwords, then scan.19:45
cjwatson:-)19:46
dmj_nova1www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awz_sGj0Zhw19:46
tedglool, I think "no password" isn't good19:47
tedgI think if you're using a PIN to login, it should be the PIN.19:47
ogra_tedg, "locked password"19:47
ogra_not "no password"19:47
looltedg: disabled password19:47
lool"!" as password19:47
cjwatsonA PIN should be a different PAM authentication mechanism19:47
cjwatsonIt should not be hooked up such that things that do remote auth might accidentally use it19:48
tedgWhy wouldn't you use the PIN with PAM?19:48
cjwatsonBut only for auth when logging in on screen19:48
dmj_nova1btw, the pin in the video is a one-time pin, just to get the key across securely19:48
cjwatsontedg: You would, just not via PAM password auth19:48
cjwatsonKeep it separate because it's not the same thing :)19:48
tedgI guess I kinda do see it as the same thing... "this is how I login to my device"  -- PIN, password or swipe.19:49
tedgIf I plug in my phone and I'm using it as a desktop... how do I get through the greeter?19:49
cjwatsonIt should be kept separate at the PAM layer so that different session-creating services can use different policies19:49
cjwatsonThat's all I'm saying19:49
cjwatsonA PIN does not make sense to expose for network login methods where you can attack the entire PIN space at your leisure19:50
cjwatsonBut it's fine for local login19:50
cjwatsonOr, to put it another way, why conflate PINs with passwords when we don't have to, given that they're conceptually different19:50
cjwatsonAnd I've just exhibited a case where distinguishing them is useful :)19:51
tedgcjwatson, I see what you're saying, but I guess I worry that we're separating things that users don't see as different.19:51
dmj_nova1yeah, let's not mix unlock pin with complete device access19:51
rickspencer3lool, do you want me to join the hangout to try to answer dmj_nova1's question?19:51
cjwatsontedg: This wouldn't generally need to be exposed to users, so I don't see that as a concern, really19:51
loolrickspencer3: if you like, we kind of switched topic I'm afraid19:52
cjwatsonNot many users will need remote access to their phone, but let's not open security holes for those who do :)19:52
looldmj_nova1: including link to your peering setup in pad, thanks19:52
tedgcjwatson, I'm just guessing that those who do probably aren't happy with a PIN anywhere ;-)19:52
dmj_nova1lool: feel free to ask me or jderose about how it works19:52
loolthanks19:53
dmj_nova1or look at the peering code in dmedia19:53
cjwatsontedg: Some won't be, but I think some will be fine - attacking an entire PIN space on a phone screen is maybe possible but would take a long time19:53
cjwatsonAnd be kind of obvious19:53
dmj_nova1lool: you can find us in #novacut19:53
tedgcjwatson, Don't we delay on failed attempts with network services?19:53
rickspencer3lool, I don't much care to join the hangout, I can just answer here19:53
rickspencer3dmj_nova1, did you get an answer to your question?19:53
cjwatsontedg: Yeah, but if you leave your phone connected overnight (etc.) that's still plenty of time19:54
cjwatsontedg: Somebody actually getting hold of your phone is quite a different matter and a lot more obvious ...19:54
tedgInteresting.  Perhaps we need the delay to increase exponentially ;-)  Anyway, topic for beer.19:55
karni.wc19:56
karnisorry, that was window close in irssi ;d19:56
tedgmhall119, Assign mpt to update the design first19:56
mhall119tedg: design of what?19:56
tedgmhall119, System settings19:56
mhall119tedg: done19:57
dholbachthanks a bunch!19:59
netcurlithanks19:59
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/28/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/appdev-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/29/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-1.html

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