/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/29/#ubuntu-uds-foundations-1.txt

=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-foundations-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/foundations-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/29/%23ubuntu-uds-foundations-1.html
hackurxplease make "ubuntu pro" with ubuntu LTS + Mate desktop + compiz + Firefox + thunderbird ! This is the end of Windows XP, it's time to release a simple, light version for businesses. Follow the model of the desktop version 10.04.06:28
=== smb` is now known as smb
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-foundations-1 to: Track: Foundations | A proposal for a new API for revocable kernel memory | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21930/foundations-1308-revocable-memory/
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tvoss_slangasek, ping13:56
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* apw waits13:59
tvoss_apw, likewise13:59
* xnox o/14:00
tvoss_apw, xnox slangasek is trying to start the hangout14:01
slangasek'snot working so well14:04
slangasekah, looks like it might be a pulseaudio issue of some kind; let's see if I can jumpstart it14:04
slangasektvoss_, apw, xnox: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/d525b6d071a23950810c98c7af9a26800980efa114:07
slangaseksforshee: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/d525b6d071a23950810c98c7af9a26800980efa114:08
tvoss_sforshee, wanna join us?14:08
sforsheetvoss_: I doubt I'll have much to say, but if I find that I do I'll hop in14:09
danjaredhas the video feed started?14:09
xnoxyes.14:09
danjaredoh, it just started playing14:10
xnoxtvoss_: try http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-foundations-1308-revocable-memory ?14:22
xnoxdirect, cause it works for me.14:22
alecuI can't understand the word. Is it "brace" ?14:30
tvoss_alecu, yeah, brace :)14:32
tvoss_xnox, hah, that works14:32
alecuso, will this mean that each access to this memory has to go thru userspace code to check that the memory is still available?14:32
alecuAs I understand it, CPU page faults seems like a better model than checking each access in userspace14:33
alecuQUESTION: ^ (sorry, if this has been discussed, I missed the first 10 minutes of the session)14:34
argesso is this API going to be an opt-in kind of thing? For example will existing programs that use libc/malloc just have non-revocable memory?14:38
alecuperhaps it makes sense to have a list of use cases for how client side apps will use this?14:38
xnoxarges: yeah, .... and getting killed by the OOM-killer14:39
argesxnox: gotcha. so the ones using revocable memory will have memory de-allocated more gracefully14:39
xnoxarges: so I guess high-memory using apps will opt into "kill my caches instead of killing all of me"14:40
sforsheearges: I suspect reclaiming revocable memory would be something that the kernel would invoke at an earlier stage than OOM14:40
sforsheeso OOM killer would only kick in if not enough memory could be reclaimed14:40
argesso first we try to reclaim memory, if that still doesn't work then we OOM kill14:41
sforsheethat's my guess, I haven't studied the proposed implementations in detail14:41
alecuwell, large sound files, and bitmaps can be memory mapped instead directly from storage, and that does not need this kind of revocable memory14:43
alecuthis kind of memory needs to be somehow "rebuilt" each time14:44
alecuoh, the session finished :-(14:45
slangasektvoss_: ^^14:45
tvoss_alecu, yeah, sorry, happy to continue it here :)14:46
tvoss_alecu, yup, the idea is that the application provides a re-init handler14:46
alecuah, good14:46
alecuthen perhaps I'm not getting the right idea on how the "braces" would work14:47
alecubut I'm happy to wait for more doc, I'll keep watching the blueprint.14:47
alecuThis was a very interesting session, from my userspace POV, thanks a lot for having it!14:48
tvoss_alecu, yup14:48
slangasekalecu: the braces indicate the section where the objects are "in use" and should not be freed by the kernel out from under the app.  But outside those braces, the memory can be freed at any time, which means when *entering* the braced section, the app may need a callback to recreate the objects14:48
tvoss_alecu, thanks for your questions. and as I said: I need to have a play with the api, too :)14:48
alecuslangasek: ah, I understand it now. Thanks!14:49
zygahow do I get the hangout started, do I do it or does the track lead do it?14:57
tvoss_zyga, usually the track lead14:57
zygathanks14:58
roadmrhey14:58
seb128hey14:59
seb128next session starts in 6 minutes14:59
seb128the hangout is open: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/4f360dd2df74af68b7df94cd0bb4204570efbf4a?authuser=014:59
seb128I'm away a few minutes but don't worry, back to start the stream in 5 mins14:59
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-foundations-1 to: Track: Foundations | CheckBox (based on PlainBox) in Ubuntu | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21882/foundations-1308-checkbox-in-ubuntu/
zygaroadmr, ara, spineau: ^^15:00
seb128http://youtu.be/jpd4guGqhSo15:05
seb128^ cast url15:05
=== doko_ is now known as doko
bladernris this where I ask you to fix server? ;-)15:34
bladernrthree sets: things that are server specific set for checkbox-cli, things that are desktop are set for checkbox-qt and things that apply to both to the checkbox meta package15:35
bladernrpython3 stuff would be for both15:36
bladernrwe could go back to where "checkbox" has jobs that are universal and checkbox-qt would have desktop jobs and checkbox-cli would have server jobs... like we used to do with cehckbox, checkbox-ready and checkbox-cert15:37
arabladernr, why don't you join the hangout? ;-)15:37
spineaubladernr: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/4f360dd2df74af68b7df94cd0bb4204570efbf4a?authuser=015:40
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-foundations-1 to: Track: Foundations | Architecture-specific Click packages | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21908/foundations-1308-arch-specific-click-pkgs/
beunoo/16:03
beunolink?  :)16:03
slangasekshortly16:03
slangasekhttps://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/896ceb8c962fa06a273acfe7b451cb8cfa4a31f716:04
slangasekhttps://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/896ceb8c962fa06a273acfe7b451cb8cfa4a31f716:07
slangasekbeuno: ^^16:07
sergiusensslangasek: is there room for me?16:07
cjwatsonplenty16:07
slangaseksergiusens: always! don't be shy :)16:08
cjwatsonwe have 516:08
xnoxlive \o/16:09
wellsbThe session I've been waiting for16:09
dholbachprevious session notes: http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-community-1308-qml-extensions16:09
alecuo/16:10
cjwatsonif somebody could take notes, that would be helpful16:11
beunoalecu, how easy would it be to pass in the architecture from the scope to filter?16:12
looljoining slowly16:12
alecubeuno: from the scope to the webservice? I think it would be trivial16:12
dholbachwould http://paste.ubuntu.com/6039969/ be a reasonable summary of what would need to happen to make this work generally? or can anyone else see anything that's missing?16:13
alecudholbach: sounds reasonable, yes16:14
jdstrandfyi, evilapp might be a good realworld use case. ie, I'm waiting for what is decided here before applying for it to be in the app store16:19
xnoxcjwatson: bin/x86_64-linux-gnu/hello    &     lib/x86_64-linu-gnu/libhello.so16:19
jdstrandI'm happy to work with people to test things with it16:19
xnoxjdstrand: what's the evilapp?16:20
xnoxjdstrand: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/896ceb8c962fa06a273acfe7b451cb8cfa4a31f716:20
jdstrandxnox: it is something that makes sure that various parts of application confinement are working correctly16:20
xnoxah, ack.16:20
xnoxjdstrand: your team "app" =)16:20
jdstrandI'll join if I need to. at this point I don't think I have anything to add16:20
jdstrandxnox: yes :)16:21
cjwatsonxnox: e.g., yeah16:21
jdstrandlool: we already do that16:22
xnoxcjwatson: note the bin/ arch qualified, which well doesn't exists in normal multiarch yet.16:22
looljdstrand: cool16:23
jdstrandlool: we verify the arch as its declared all over. is is in the lint check16:23
jdstrand(ie, filename, DEBIAN/*, etc)16:23
cjwatsonxnox: right, but that's partly due to problems that don't exist with click ($PATH)16:23
xnoxtrue.16:24
xnoxcjwatson: click mk-sbuild =)16:26
beedubsbuild chroots can persist16:27
* xnox laptop arrived! =)16:27
cjwatsonbeedub: oh, indeed.  I think we might even be able to use sbuild or at least some of its libraries16:28
cjwatson(I have sbuild commit access)16:29
beedubcjwatson: i will have to keep that in mind :)16:29
beedub(that you have commit)16:29
cjwatsonfor my sins16:30
dokocjwatson, plus todos for build systems16:38
dokoqmake ...16:38
xnoxdoko: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/896ceb8c962fa06a273acfe7b451cb8cfa4a31f716:38
cjwatsondoko: right16:39
* sergiusens never had issues with cmake for x-compile16:44
dokoif the cmake modules are cleanly written for cross builds ...16:45
cjwatsoncmake modules do sometimes need some work, indeed, but that's more tractable16:45
cjwatson(a lot of them try to outsmart the compiler and turn out not to be as smart)16:46
cjwatsonfixing it is often a matter of deleting code :-)16:46
cjwatson(ok, I simplify slightly)16:46
xnoxdoko: depends what sdk generates.... and at the moment it doesn't have it.16:47
cjwatsonxnox: is what I wrote in the pad right?16:50
xnoxcjwatson: yes.16:52
slangasekxnox: note that doko and tvoss_ have also been doing some work around cross-buildability of cmake projects for the daily-release stacks, please check that you're aligned with anything they're doing and we don't wind up with duplicated cmake abstractions everywhere :)16:52
xnoxslangasek: ack.16:52
bzoltanhttp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-sdk-team/qtcreator-plugin-ubuntu/trunk/files/head:/share/qtcreator/templates/wizards/ubuntu/backend/16:52
tvoss_doko, did you have a chance to look at the mir cmake modules?16:53
jdstrandcjwatson: that would be via the architecture field in the manifest, or something new?16:53
bzoltanxnox: ^^^16:53
xnoxbzoltan: yeap.16:53
dokotvoss_, no, not yet16:54
xnoxtvoss_: slangasek: are the cross-compile cmake achievements, daily landed yet? e.g. dpkg-buildpackage -aarmhf builds stuff?16:54
xnoxtvoss_: doko: are the cross-compile cmake achievements, daily landed yet? e.g. dpkg-buildpackage -aarmhf builds stuff?16:55
xnoxslangasek: unping.16:55
tvoss_xnox, don't know tbh, but mir is cross-compiled for every commit16:55
xnoxtvoss_: cool.16:55
tvoss_xnox, would need to check the jenkins job16:55
slangasektvoss_: where do we find the jenkins job? :)16:55
tvoss_xnox, there are some setup scripts to bootstrap a chroot in there, too16:55
cjwatsonjdstrand: probably need to extend it to be multivalued16:55
xnoxtvoss_: if you can send me a link to the job, that would be nice. I suspect it might be in the other jenkins instance(s) i don't usually see =)16:55
tvoss_slangasek, if I only knew ;) somewhere in limbo :)16:56
slangasekheh16:56
jdstrandcjwatson: right, that was what I was going to mention16:56
xnox =)))))16:56
tvoss_xnox, true16:56
dokoxnox, tvoss_ is speaking about cross builds using a chroot.  the unity package itself cross builds (with a few hacks)16:56
cjwatsonjdstrand: the current one is basically a placeholder which is why it's undocumented16:56
slangaseksergiusens: ^^ do you know how to find the jenkins config for the daily-release mir build?16:56
* jdstrand nods16:56
wellsbIf this is not available before the showdown ends, we'll need some help getting compiled apps into .click for the store.  Should be fairly easy since we can just build on device in the interim. We just need documentation for the process16:56
jdstrandyes, there is some degree of urgency due to the showdown. several people seemed to indicate wanted C++ from what I've read on the mailing list16:57
jdstrands/wanted/wanting/16:58
cjwatsonwhen's the end of the showdown16:58
cjwatson?16:58
jdstranddholbach: ^ ?16:58
cjwatsonfor those of us who don't religiously read the community team's many blog posts :-)16:59
* cjwatson has trouble keeping up sometimes16:59
wellsb15 Sept16:59
cjwatsonhm, not completely implausible but not sure16:59
cjwatsonmay require some assembly16:59
sergiusensslangasek: one sec16:59
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-foundations-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/foundations-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/29/%23ubuntu-uds-foundations-1.html
jdstrandI think it would be sufficient that if people can build locally on the target device, and that the app store can handle _armhf.click files fine, and there is documentation on how to do that, then probably ok17:00
bzoltanI like the bell17:00
slangasek:)17:00
xnoxdholbach: mk-sbuild --arch armhf17:00
jdstrandsome-assembly-required seems reasonable so long as it is documented :)17:01
sergiusensslangasek: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~cupstream2distro-maintainers/cupstream2distro-config/trunk/view/head:/stacks/head/mir.cfg#L2717:01
slangasekxnox: ^^17:01
wellsbYes, that's no problem.  We just need documentation17:01
wellsbFor the structure of a .click17:01
sergiusensit's not really a config17:01
jdstrandI actually use a diffenent method. so long as its documented :)17:01
xnoxbzoltan: =)17:02
dokoxnox, London is not Europe ....17:02
xnoxdoko: ++17:02
dholbachawesome17:02
jdstrandwellsb: structure of click is not hard. put what you want to ship into a dir, cd to the dir and do 'click build .'17:02
bzoltanthanks guys17:02
dholbachthanks a bunch everyone - I'm super excited about this :-)17:02
bzoltanlots of progress, lots of work :)17:02
aleculunch!17:03
slangaseksergiusens: "not really a config"?  well, I want to understand how the jenkins job invokes the mir build, and the goal is to minimize the amount of actual config in jenkins in favor of wrapping standard interfaces (dpkg-buildpackage) that can also be invoked locally17:03
slangasekso the less config, the better :)17:03
cjwatsonand details of the structure are in click/doc/file-format.rst17:03
slangaseks/lunch/breakfast/!17:03
wellsbGood info.  Thanks17:05
sergiusensslangasek: ack, so this is piggybacking on didiers daily relase config17:05
sergiusensslangasek: xnox http://10.97.2.10:8080/view/Phablet/job/mir-autolanding/17:06
sergiusensyou want to talk to fginther though, seems the setup for mir is outside of what we standarized on17:08
=== alecu is now known as alecu_lunch
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-foundations-1 to: Track: Foundations | Update on OS updates ... and next steps | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21858/foundations-1308-os-updates/
beedubslangasek: do you have a url yet?18:01
slangasekhttps://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/5fd5313ab1492f07808af88c2a452bc0118e649118:03
stgraberslangasek: can you send me the url?18:04
slangasekstgraber: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/5fd5313ab1492f07808af88c2a452bc0118e649118:04
slangaseklool: are you joining the OS updates session?18:05
loolslangasek: yes18:06
dholbachdid the hangout start already?18:07
loolyes18:07
dholbachhum18:08
loolah not the broadcastr no18:08
stgraberdholbach: nope, still off air, waiting for lool to join18:08
dholbachgo go go :)18:08
sergiusensstgraber: you can phablet-flash ubuntu-system --channel daily-proposed18:12
cjwatson"if we accidentally manage to get all the tests to pass"18:13
apwcjwatson, we should call the tool that :)  iwamtgattp18:14
cjwatsoncatchy18:15
loolcjwatson: lol18:15
stgraberwell, looking at cdimage, the last two images that passed the tests were the one from the 22nd and the 28th, there was over a dozen images built between those two :)18:15
slangasek"passed" the tests18:16
stgraberand yeah, we call the resulting channel "daily" (the current day being of around 145 hours)18:16
slangasekright - but that's a problem that needs to be solved on the quality side ASAP, at which point we will have regular updates18:19
ogra_the last few days were crazy18:19
ogra_FF pressure etc18:19
slangasekthat's mostly unrelated to the ongoing test failures18:20
ogra_so some bits went in with broken tests or changed underneath their tests18:20
ogra_(many actually)18:20
slangaseka lot of those tests have been failing intermittently for weeks18:20
ogra_only the community app ones18:20
ogra_we tend to ignore these ....18:20
slangasek... which is broken18:21
slangasekthey're part of the Touch install, they need to be tested, they need to pass their tests18:21
ogra_slangasek, well, the community apps are simply on a slower (volunteer) schedule18:21
slangasekthen let's pull them out of the phone18:22
slangasekif they can't keep up with the basic quality requirements18:22
ogra_not my decision18:22
sergiusens+118:22
* ogra_ will happily change whats needed 18:22
ogra_but i wont push comminuty stuff off the image :)18:22
ogra_unless i'm told so18:22
slangasekthat was intended to be an outrageous strawman that you could shoot down, not a serious proposal people would agree to ;)18:23
ogra_hehe18:23
slangasekmy actual point is, being "community" does not justify being held to a more lax standard18:23
ogra_it is indeed clear that the tests need fixing18:23
ogra_no but we dont hold the images back for community app breakage18:23
slangasekeither they're not of a quality that should be included; or we are *collectively* responsible for making the tests pass18:23
apwslangasek, perhaps we need a touch+1-maint team18:24
cjohnstonthen they should be tested elsewhere18:24
ogra_they will be of the quality once we release ... might be that we included them prematurely18:24
cjohnstonslangasek: IIRC there was talk at another session about changing the size of the partitions for the RO images. any idea on a timeframe for that?18:25
slangasekcjohnston: no, I hoped to have it done pre-UDS and I keep getting derailed :(18:26
cjohnstonok18:26
ogra_http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/smokeng/saucy/touch_ro/18:36
cjohnstonlool: what switch18:37
loolcjohnston: recommending ro images by default18:37
alecu_lunchgroup downloads is about to land on trunk, so I guess it might be on tomorrow's image18:43
=== alecu_lunch is now known as alecu
alecumandel: here18:45
xnoxstgraber: dots that flash back & forth18:48
xnox=)18:48
beedubalecu, mandel: excellet18:49
xnoxuse hexadecimal.18:57
xnox=)18:57
ogra_octal !18:57
xnoxstgraber: ^18:57
xnoxalso barry is not in the irc channel =((((18:57
xnoxbut then you will have shadow effect, as a few existing numbers have been already used in the 201308* space =)18:58
apwstgraber, you need an epoch18:59
* ogra_ throws stuff at apw 19:00
apwogra_, tell me they are cookies and tins of beer19:00
ogra_you said the evil word !19:00
=== udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-foundations-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/foundations-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/29/%23ubuntu-uds-foundations-1.html

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