[13:59] <jcastro> hey marcoceppi
[13:59] <jcastro> I guess I am launching this hangout?
[14:00] <jcastro> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/4f49dc030369bd430da528827e7b5ff186385242?authuser=0&hl=en
[14:00] <marcoceppi> jcastro: yeah
[14:00] <marcoceppi> en route
[14:01] <wedgwood> jcastro: got the hangout URL?
[14:01] <jcastro> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/4f49dc030369bd430da528827e7b5ff186385242?authuser=0&hl=en
[14:01] <marcoceppi> jcastro: can you hear me?
[14:01] <jcastro> just sorting out a mic problem with marco
[14:01] <jcastro> nope
[14:03] <jcastro> wedgwood: going to join in?
[14:03] <wedgwood> (ignore me here, just getting this to my laptop) https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/4f49dc030369bd430da528827e7b5ff186385242?authuser=0&hl=en
[14:03]  * jcastro nods
[14:11] <noodles775> hazmat: have you had a chance to get your ansible support improvements done? If not, and you've got a branch with the main ideas, I'd be happy to grab it and finish it.
[14:13] <arosales> hmm I can't get http://pad.ubuntu.com/ep/pad/view/uds-1308-servercloud-s-juju-charmhelper2/ to load for me
[14:13] <arosales> anyone else having this issue?
[14:13] <arosales> marcoceppi,
[14:13] <marcoceppi> arosales: getting 404
[14:14] <arosales> same here . . .
[14:14] <hazmat> noodles775, i haven't worked on it a few weeks, but its self-contained in the cs:~hazmat/precise/elasticsearch charm which is stable
[14:15] <noodles775> hazmat: k, I'll take a look. Thanks.
[14:16] <hazmat> that reuses an ansible role in the context of juju, i don't really consider it complete though the relation data isn't being pushed out to disk for the non juju usage
[14:23] <arosales> http://pad.ubuntu.com/71pRwCnCCz
[14:23] <arosales> marcoceppi, wedgwood, jcastro ^
[14:23] <arosales> et all
[14:24] <noodles775> Has there been any discussion of a scaffolding helper that generates a working basic charm (configurable, like http://yeoman.io/ is for webapps)
[14:25] <noodles775> That'd possibly function both as documentation and extendable working examples (but would be quite a bit of work).
[14:27] <noodles775> Oh - excellent. I'd not heard of the charm-create tool.
[14:27] <marcoceppi> noodles775: lp:charm-tools
[14:28] <marcoceppi> ppa:juju/pkgs has the lastest charm-tools, but that will be moving PPAs soon
[14:28] <noodles775> Excellent, yep that answers my question ;)
[14:35] <adam_g> sorry for being late, another session. is there plans to cut a 1.0 of charm-helpers? do we know when?
[14:42] <adam_g> thats cool. no rush from me, just curious
[14:47] <wedgwood> adam_g: I mentioned plans in a recent email to the juju mailing list. I put down a list of goals, but no deadline.
[14:47] <wedgwood> I think we'll target a 1.0 package in the PPA for saucy
[14:48] <adam_g> wedgwood, ya, thats why i was curious.
[14:48] <wedgwood> I'm filing more 1.0-related bugs now
[14:56] <jcastro> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/9825969893f317cd0880da26f976c3e014553ff3b8?authuser=0&hl=en
[14:56] <jcastro> will be the next session
[15:08] <utlemming> YES! Examples
[15:35] <gary_poster> hi.  happy to join hangout if it would be helpful.  I don't see the hangout url
[15:43] <marcoceppi> gary_poster: we just finished up
[15:43] <marcoceppi> :(
[15:43] <gary_poster> oh :-(
[15:43] <gary_poster> ok
[15:43] <gary_poster> cool
[15:43] <marcoceppi> gary_poster: did you have anything in particular you wanted to talk about?
[15:44] <gary_poster> the web, gui and potentially cli aspects, marcoceppi.  I'm very to possibly responsible for parts of each of those :-)
[15:45] <gary_poster> marcoceppi, it may be that I'm early :-) for http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21899/servercloud-s-juju-new-user-ux/
[15:48] <mattyw> jcastro, is there an existing blueprint for the next session? (amazing 30 mins)
[15:48] <jcastro> not afaict
[15:48] <jcastro> I think we'll just pad it
[15:48] <jcastro> and then generate a bp out of it
[15:48] <jcastro> that way we can all pad at once
[15:48] <marcoceppi> gary_poster: we're on juju charm testing, atm
[15:49] <mattyw> jcastro, ok cool
[15:49] <marcoceppi> gary_poster: that session is going on elsewhere
[15:49] <marcoceppi> gary_poster: jk, that's going to happen in 10 mins
[15:49] <gary_poster> marcoceppi, lol
[15:50] <gary_poster> marcoceppi, care about the charm testing too, fwiw, but currently we are racing
[15:51] <arosales> Hangout URL for "Amazing First 30 min Juju Experience" session: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/99da97cc46e64f09fbbdebfe4fc6aa0aaa2f5440?authuser=0&hl=en
[15:51] <arosales> starting in roughly ~8 minutes
[15:51] <arosales> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21899/servercloud-s-juju-new-user-ux/
[15:51] <jcastro> \o/
[15:51] <arosales> BP: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-s-juju-new-user-ux
[15:52] <arosales> Pad: http://pad.ubuntu.com/ep/pad/view/uds-1308-servercloud-s-juju-new-user-ux/latest
[15:54] <jcastro> arosales: session starts a5 5 after, so ~10 from now
[15:55] <arosales> jcastro, ack
[16:03] <jcastro> arosales: got a link to the hangout handy?
[16:04] <arosales> Hangout URL for "Amazing First 30 min Juju Experience" session: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/99da97cc46e64f09fbbdebfe4fc6aa0aaa2f5440?authuser=0&hl=en
[16:04] <arosales> rogpeppe, ^
[16:05] <arosales> staring here in  a few . . . .
[16:06] <arosales> evilnickveitch, ^
[16:07] <zyga> hi
[16:09] <m_3> thanks thumper for getting lxc in!
[16:11] <m_3> vagrant!!!
[16:12] <mattyw> jcastro, I'm going to join in
[16:16] <zyga> QUESTION: will juju have an API?
[16:17] <jcastro> zyga: it does. :)
[16:17] <zyga> (for doing stuff like querying the state of the system, doing actions?)
[16:17] <zyga> jcastro: in go?
[16:17] <jcastro> the juju gui is an api client
[16:17] <zyga> the provider is the API?
[16:17] <jcastro> zyga: when we finish this topic I can have someone walk you through it
[16:17] <zyga> jcastro: is there an API that I can call instead of shelling out to 'juju deploy foo'
[16:18] <zyga> ok
[16:18] <zyga> thanks
[16:18] <mattyw> zyga, it has one for querying and doing actions, rogpeppe is the guy I go to with all my api questions
[16:18] <zyga> rogpeppe: is that a web/http api or some lang-specific API? are there python3 bindings?
[16:19] <zyga> amezing 30 minutes for who, what is the target audience?
[16:20] <jcastro> that is a good question
[16:20] <jcastro> I am assuming a new user
[16:20] <mattyw> zyga, there's an experimental python binding here: https://launchpad.net/python-jujuclient, not sure how it would work under python 3
[16:20] <zyga> one that has 1000 servers or one that plays around with some django app and want to run it
[16:21] <zyga> that's not a great story (I'm not whining, just stating the obvious), it's alpha and python is super-popular, juju should have a mature API for java/python/ruby whatever
[16:22] <rogpeppe> i keep on getting kicked out, sorry
[16:22] <jcastro> zyga: /me nods
[16:24] <zyga> QUESTION: as a juju novice user I often got into a state where I could basically not fix my setup and I had to juju destroy, if that was real production stuff I'd loose data. I think we should have a good troubleshooting section on the page so that when people make mistakes during the first 30 minutes, they have a place to go to with simple answers
[16:24] <zyga> (and that's not a question)
[16:24] <jcastro> oooh, good one
[16:24] <jcastro> let me write that one down
[16:24] <jcastro> zyga: keep the tips coming!
[16:26] <zyga> last thing I can think about is a way to deploy juju on one machine (probably openstack) that I have spare so that I can evaluate it for 30 days in my company/whatever (so no public cloud) and still survive reboots/whatever that lxc is not suitable for)
[16:27] <jcastro> yes
[16:27] <zyga> I personally had great issues to deploy openstack on a dedicated machine to get started with juju and I failed in the end
[16:27] <jcastro> we call that manual provisioning
[16:27] <jcastro> someone is working on that now
[16:27] <zyga> (I've installed esxi and I didn't use juju in the end)
[16:27] <jcastro> so you can just say "Deploy to this box" or "deploy to this linode via ssh"
[16:27] <zyga> or, can juju consume vmware ;) ?
[16:27] <jcastro> not yet
[16:27] <jcastro> but yeah, we want to support all the things
[16:27] <zyga> jcastro: actually having a one-iso-one-machine openstack might be good enough, creating a 'ssh juju provider' might be different target
[16:28] <jcastro> yeah so we have a bundle for openstack-on-one-machine
[16:28] <jcastro> but it didn't work for me but we're working on it
[16:28] <natefinch> for the record... searching for specific charms on jujucharms is pretty bad
[16:29] <zyga> there is devstack but devstack is not something I want to run for a long time on that one machine
[16:29] <zyga> I want one, non-redundant juju-ready openstac with ubuntu sticker on it
[16:29] <zyga> openstack machine
[16:30] <natefinch> the search seems to require exact name matches (post won't bring up postgres)
[16:30] <zyga> one last thing I can think of is how to manage my juju setup
[16:30] <zyga> like, I got it working
[16:30] <zyga> but what's next
[16:30] <zyga> how do I keep them up to date
[16:30] <zyga> how do I monitor
[16:30] <zyga> scale up or down
[16:30] <zyga> fix them when they break (can I recycle from juju so that I don't have to?)
[16:31] <zyga> how to stream out data backups from postgres charm so that I can feel safe if juju fails for me?
[16:32] <rogpeppe> i think there's a big gap between juju user and juju charm developer
[16:32] <natefinch> the search should be really really permissive.... because if I search and my thing doesn't come up... there's no way for me to know that I filtered out the charm, and not that juju simply doesn't have that charm
[16:32] <rogpeppe> i wouldn't hope to go anywhere near charm developer in the first 30 mins
[16:32] <natefinch> rogpeppe: I agree
[16:33] <rogpeppe> provider configuration is something we're actively working on
[16:34] <zyga> lxc + laptop =  fail if your laptop cannot suspend
[16:34] <zyga> I've been there, I didn't use juju for 6 months because of that
[16:34] <mattyw> rogpeppe, I think that only applies to "proper charms". I don't see a reason why we couldn't get new users writing simple useful charms in the first 30 mins
[16:34] <natefinch> zyga: only if you care about things sticking around
[16:34] <natefinch> zyga: it still gives you a really good demo
[16:34] <zyga> natefinch: well, yeah, because I'm in the middle of something when I suspend
[16:34] <zyga> natefinch: I had issues with being able to use that as a replacement for vagrant infrastructure
[16:35] <zyga> natefinch: in the end, since lxc didn't work, I couldn't use that at all
[16:35] <zyga> natefinch: dev environment for learning and hacking on my stuff
[16:35] <natefinch> zyga: yeah, we definitely need a way to say "just deploy to x specific IP address".  I think this is something we're working on with the manual provider
[16:35] <zyga> if lxc is local than defaulting to something like apt-cacher-ng would also improve the user experience
[16:36] <zyga> natefinch: I don't undrestand how that relates to my problem with being able to 'stop' and 'start' my lxc setup after I power cycle
[16:37] <natefinch> zyga: this would be a replacement. lxc is for demoing and trying things out. The manual provider is a way to actually deploy something to production that'll stick around (like to a VPS)
[16:37] <zyga> natefinch: I think that VPS is a very good use case but non-persistence of lxc is still an issue, at least for the way I was working
[16:39] <natefinch> zyga: I'm not an LXC expert, so I'm not sure if that's a limitation of LXC or if we can get around it.
[16:40] <arosales> utlemming, if you have a spare minute could you join us?
[16:40] <arosales> utlemming, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/99da97cc46e64f09fbbdebfe4fc6aa0aaa2f5440?authuser=0&hl=en
[16:40] <utlemming> arosales: link?
[16:41] <rogpeppe> what about a plugin, say "juju demo-bootstrap" ?
[16:41] <natefinch> why not bundle the gui with juju always? What's the drawback?  A few kb download?
[16:42] <rogpeppe> natefinch: the issue is whether we automatically deploy the gui charm
[16:42] <natefinch> rogpeppe: what's the drawback to always doing it?
[16:43] <rogpeppe>  currently there's no way of saying "bootstrap-and-deploy-this-charm" in one step
[16:43] <natefinch> rogpeppe: we could just make it part of bootstrap
[16:43] <zyga> mac stuff: how do I get an osx instance?
[16:44] <rogpeppe> natefinch: it might use more resources than we want (though i don't know dependency and runtime requirements of the gui)
[16:44] <marcoceppi> having computer issues. will participate from orc
[16:45] <rogpeppe> natefinch: it *seems* like a nice idea, but it's a significant step, so worth discussing more
[16:45] <marcoceppi> make a plug in. juju guistrap
[16:46] <marcoceppi> bootstrap + deply --to
[16:47] <m_3> marcoceppi: nice
[16:47] <marcoceppi> zyga: you don't. juju only deploys to Ubuntu servers. you can use the juju CLI tool on Mac osx though
[16:48] <zyga> I meant for testing!
[16:49] <zyga> for having a osx vm to see how osx users experience juju
[16:49] <zyga> (this also affects sdk)
[16:49] <marcoceppi> zyga: ah! my bad
[16:49] <natefinch> +1 on troubleshooting guide
[16:49] <zyga> heroku has website stuff to manage stuff
[16:49] <zyga> I mean, what kind of widgets/
[16:50] <zyga> the cli is also slick with a lot of smart stuff (easy on the front, complex on the back)
[16:51] <arosales> marcoceppi, can you ping here if we have missed any IRC comments / questions?
[16:51] <marcoceppi> arosales: ack
[16:54] <arosales> marcoceppi, thanks
[16:54]  * arosales looked at the backscroll but not sure if we missed any questions or comment
[16:54] <natefinch> the first 30 minutes needs to be *easy* .... fewest barriers to entry possible.
[16:54] <arosales> if folks have any remaining questions/comments please ping me
[16:54] <natefinch> arosales: searching on jujucharms is kinda poor... it's easy to think there's no charm for something if you don't type your search exactly right
[16:55] <arosales> natefinch, noted, and I'll bring it up before we close
[16:55] <natefinch> arosales: thanks
[16:55] <arosales> I think gary_poster and folks are working on better searching . . .
[16:55] <gary_poster> if that means SEO then yes
[16:56] <natefinch> arosales: cool.... one thing that would make a big difference is just not filtering by defaulty
[16:56] <arosales> gary_poster, not seo but searching for charms in general
[16:56] <arosales>  per natefinch feedback above
[16:56] <gary_poster> natefinch, try http://comingsoon.jujucharms.com/ for me and give me thoughts on that search?
[16:57] <natefinch> gary_poster: looks better... it's a little odd that search results are in a dropdown... but not just a list of charms
[16:58] <natefinch> gary_poster: but definitely much better
[16:58] <natefinch> gary_poster: false positives are way better than false negartives
[16:58] <natefinch> gary_poster: I know if something is not right, I can't know if something didn't show up
[16:59] <zyga> put juju on github
[16:59] <zyga> seriously
[16:59] <mattyw> m_3, jcastro are we/ can we schedule a session for improving the charm development ux?
[16:59] <marcoceppi> arosales: ^
[17:00] <gary_poster> natefinch ack and thanks very much.  I'll share the feedback.
[17:00] <natefinch> gary_poster: thanks for listening :)
[17:00] <natefinch> gary_poster: not entirely happy that the filters are hidden by default... it wasn't clear my search results were being filtered
[17:01] <natefinch> gary_poster: maybe some visual indication that the filter if excluding things
[17:01] <natefinch> gary_poster: if the filter is excluding things that is
[17:02] <mattyw> jcastro, I'll pop along to next weeks charmers meeting
[17:03] <gary_poster> natefinch, ack.  good news is that filter will go away and instead we will always show reviewed charms above unreviewed charms, with no other filters.  We will add filters back when we think they add more value.  However, the filter will still exclude unreviewed charms from fast search: they will only show up when you get the full list
[17:03] <natefinch> gary_poster: awesome, that sounds perfect
[17:03] <gary_poster> cool thanks natefinch
[17:10] <mattyw> zyga, if you aren't already you should stick around the #juju channel
[17:40] <jcastro> indeed
[17:59] <arosales> Next session starting in a few minutes
[17:59] <arosales> Hangout URL is https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/c027f154f35e574c6499dfe24ebbf337435e5616?authuser=0&hl=en
[17:59] <arosales> Session: Document Charm Relations/Interfaces: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21966/servercloud-s-juju-charm-relation-doc/
[18:00] <zyga> mattyw: thanks for the tip, I will add it to my lurk list
[18:00] <arosales> marcoceppi, m_3  I think you guys are core participants on this one
[18:03] <marcoceppi> arosales: yeah
[18:06] <arosales> m_3, you available?
[18:07] <arosales> paging Dr. Mims, paging Dr. Mims
[18:13] <arosales> pad http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-servercloud-s-juju-charm-relation-doc
[18:40]  * marcoceppi watches
[18:41] <marcoceppi> laptop is over heating
[18:55] <kurt_____> who is talking?
[18:56] <arosales> kurt_____, that was utlemming
[18:57] <arosales> and myself
[18:57] <kurt_____> thanks