[01:20] <phillw> Hi folks, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw/GettingStarted is a copy of what is shown to new people. It's a darn mess. :: SIGH :: We will have a play with it on my sandbox area, and then it can be discussed and edited. As Beta 1 is fast approaching, I'm not too sure how much time I can give to it. Please feel free to put your thoughts and ideas forward. Thanks, Phill.
[01:21] <pleia2> phillw: can you be a big more specific than "darn mess"?
[01:21] <pleia2> it's just a bunch of links to the actual docs that we've written
[01:22] <pleia2> s/big/bit
[01:22] <phillw> pleia2: look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw/GettingStarted
[01:22] <pleia2> I am looking at it
[01:22] <phillw> that is a copy of it
[01:22] <pleia2> it's a copy of our GettingStarted
[01:22] <phillw> indeed...
[01:22] <pleia2> aside from broken image links, what specifically troubles you about it?
[01:23] <phillw> there is no explantion of anything.
[01:23] <pleia2> no, it's just a list of links to things that explain
[01:24] <phillw> pleia2: as mentioned in the email.. try https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities
[01:24] <pleia2> oh sure, it certainly can be improved :) that's why I'm asking for your feedback
[01:24] <phillw> just stating a topic is insufficient
[01:25] <pleia2> this is just a first draft, please give us a break, we've worked hard this cycle to even get this far
[01:25] <phillw> pleia2: hey do you know how many man-hours were put into the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities ?
[01:25] <pleia2> coming in here and complaining that something is a "darn mess" isn't particularly respective of the work we've put in this cycle
[01:25] <pleia2> respectful too
[01:26] <pleia2> so please, try to calm down a bit, we're doing our best
[01:26] <phillw> pleia2: it's a darn mess, what I came here to ask, was we can do better :D
[01:26] <pleia2> can you please use kinder words?
[01:26] <pleia2> you're really being quite insulting right now
[01:27] <pleia2> it's a very basic listing of resources, we'll work on improving it
[01:28] <phillw> And, I'm quite calm, but for a n00b, they would have no idea of where to go. As you have told be off in the past on my classroom sessions, it does seem rather odd that having taken your advice on board I now get told off?
[01:28] <pleia2> I'll go and pull out the broken images now
[01:28] <pleia2> I am not telling you off, I really wish you'd stop usin that phrase :(
[01:28] <pleia2> I am explaining that we're working very hard here, please try to respect that
[01:29] <phillw> pleia2: please accept my apologies, but I am also getting fed up of people stating that "wiki is where documents go to die".
[01:30] <pleia2> I never said any such thing, we're actively working on this wiki page
[01:30] <pleia2> ok, removed broken links so at least it doesn't *look* like it's been abandoned anymore
[01:31] <phillw> pleia2: you did not, others have. that is why I added the new tab. At least people will now know if the wiki page has gone out to die.
[01:32] <phillw> s/the/any/
[01:35] <pleia2> phillw: do you know where is the GettingStarted page linked? I can only find the direct system documentation pages
[01:35] <phillw> pleia2: we *will* get that page sorted out. Once it has a bit of love and attention, it will be proposed to leave the sandbox area and re-join the main area. My words may seem wrong and attack mode at times, but I'm a wiki guy and *hate* instances when others can state we have got it wrong :)
[01:36] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation should really be where folks start
[01:36] <pleia2> that's linked directly on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam when folks look to contribute to system documentation
[01:38] <phillw> I only held the docs getting started area whilst the team discussed things to make it more n00b friendly. It went live a couple of days ago. although, I am struggling to see the links that were in the final email
[01:38] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide is where the one we were working on ended up
[01:39] <phillw> pleia2: it could well be the cache on my broweser...  let me just kill it
[01:39] <pleia2> GettingStarted wasn't appropriate for it, since it's very specific to Desktop guide, completely ignores wiki, server guide and everything else
[01:41] <phillw> pleia2: so, where should be heading?
[01:42] <pleia2> phillw: we can work on improving /GettingStarted if needed, but for now I think we should really focus on the existing docs
[01:42] <pleia2> I just blogged earlier about the basics of how folks can get involved and linked to the appropriate pages: http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=8443
[01:44] <pleia2> we still have a long way to go, but we're getting there
[01:44] <phillw> pleia2: I'm quite happy to drop getting stated. As I mentioned on the ML - We have to do the best we can for 13.10, but really do have to aim for 14,04 LTS.
[01:44]  * pleia2 nods
[01:46] <phillw> Let us concentrate our scant resources to what we can. Where if https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw/GettingStarted is not a 'GO', where is?
[01:46] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[01:46] <pleia2> from there you look at the headings and see what you find interesting
[01:46] <pleia2> if you click on "System Documentation" you get taken to the instructions for getting started with that, same for "Wiki Documentation"
[01:50] <phillw> :: SIGH :: okies, you are the bosses. I'd rather the 'get involved' part have higher notification, just as Nicholas on QA/ Testing wanted me to highlight our classroom sessions on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities/ His view was that "I want to help" should be top of the list.
[01:52] <pleia2> well the whole thing is "get involved"
[01:54] <pleia2> fixed up the header so the broken Mentoring link is gone and everything is shiny
[01:54] <phillw> pleia2: you do not know how much 'customer' input we held on that re-write :) But, their input, whilst stinging at times, was taken on board. We do forget the input of new commers.
[01:55] <pleia2> the subheading pages linked in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation need a lot of work since many still mention DocBook, but one thing at a time
[01:55] <pleia2> phillw: I guess I just don't understand what different material would go on a GettingStarted specific page, since all of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam is already explaining what it is and how to get started
[01:56] <pleia2> we have that root page, and a "Joining the Team" page and specific quickstarts for various types of documentation
[01:57] <phillw> pleia2: indeed, we can only do so much at once.  But once I ask people to overview work and they get a messed up page that has no descriptions and broken links; the new comers are totally allowed to give me grief :D
[01:58] <phillw> that is why we have testers :)
[01:59] <pleia2> yeah, that broken /GettingStarted page really shouldn't be linked anywhere
[02:01] <phillw> liz, I even have managed to have a broken link for lubuntu release. It happens; we need the testers to check these things out. It is not a failure, it is a mark of us having a testing system in place.
[02:02] <pleia2> did you figure out where it's linked from?
[02:03] <pleia2> (aside from the mailing list :))
[02:04] <pleia2> I have to head out for a bit, will have to pick this up later
[02:38] <phillw> pleia2: I'm off to bed, catch up later.
[20:53] <bkerensa> pleia2: I have reviewed the collect screenshots tool
[20:53] <bkerensa> and basically some programs it used are no longer shipped with Ubuntu
[20:53] <bkerensa> and Unity has changed too so it seems to not know how to manipulate it to take screenshots at the right resolution
[20:53] <bkerensa> its a mess
[20:53] <bkerensa> :)
[21:35] <pleia2> godbyk and I tried it out yesterday, he wrote some patches yesterday for it
[21:36] <godbyk> bkerensa: Yeah, you have to install a few extra packages (see the comments at the top of the script).
[21:36] <godbyk> I've written some code to check for and install the missing programs, but I haven't committed it yet.
[21:36] <godbyk> I'm commenting the script a bit more, too.
[21:36] <godbyk> Then I want to sort out the timing issues.
[21:37] <pleia2> \o/
[21:38] <godbyk> The script itself is quite brittle as it stands. It relies on a lot of assumptions.