[11:43] <rick_h> ok, so this has me wanting to do a lococast now. https://bmark.us/bmark/readable/ec79bc2177983f
[11:43] <rick_h> and morning and all that
[11:55] <cmaloney> goodmorning
[11:59] <brousch> wet morning
[12:00] <cmaloney> that good eh?
[12:03] <brousch> Woke up at 5:30 to big thunder and realized I'd left one of my van seats in the driveway. Been a deluge since then
[12:04] <cmaloney> brousch: THat was tempting fate, now wasn't it? :)
[12:05] <cmaloney> rick_h: I definitely have opinions on that link. :)
[12:06] <brousch> What link?
[12:07] <rick_h> https://bmark.us/bmark/readable/ec79bc2177983f
[12:09] <brousch> Ah, yes
[12:59] <jjesse> wow nice thunderstorms this morning in West Michigan
[12:59] <jjesse> told my wife it had stopped raining enough for her run, she left and it started pouring
[13:00] <jjesse> oops
[13:03] <rick_h> ooh, that's going to be trouble
[13:03] <jjesse> yeah
[13:07] <brousch> hehe
[13:31] <jrwren> rick_h: what are your thoughts on Alex's post?
[13:32] <rick_h> jrwren: my first instinct was bullsh$$@t
[13:32] <rick_h> jrwren: but I read it a couple of times and it really does distinguish 'scratching your own itch' vs 'I want a giant community'
[13:33] <jrwren> yes.
[13:33] <rick_h> jrwren: so now I'm thinking more
[13:34] <rick_h> I'm really kind of anti "use what the cool kids use" for the sake of popularity. It pains me that podcasts still push 'find us on itunes' so much, like us on facebook, etc
[13:34] <rick_h> and it's sad that programming, something that has kind of been against that kind of 'popularity wins' stuff, falls to it now
[13:34] <rick_h> but there's truth in there so ugh
[13:35] <rick_h> I'd love to do an interview with Mike Bayer and see how his projects have done as he's moved code over to github from bitbucket
[13:35] <jjesse> so wife is back from run and isn't pissed she laughed about it
[13:35] <jjesse> yay me
[13:35] <rick_h> jjesse: you lucky dog :P
[13:36] <jjesse> yeah dodged a bullet
[13:39] <brousch> You will go to bed tonight on a pile of ice cubes.
[13:39] <jjesse> lol probablly
[13:40] <jrwren> its not JUST popularity. Things are popular for a reason.
[13:40] <jrwren> people value those things for a reason.
[13:40] <rick_h> jrwren: true, but django is popular. If I want serious contributers should I rewrite bookie in django?
[13:40] <jrwren> you value something else more for some other reason.
[13:40] <rick_h> jrwren: yea, agree there's more to it. It was thought provoking
[13:41] <rick_h> at first is seemed inflamatory, then thought provoking
[13:41] <jrwren> yes, if you want serious django contributors. You aren't using django. I think you don't want that kind of contributor.
[13:42] <jrwren> If nothing else, we can take away what we already know. Every decision on a project is going to effect others value of the project.
[13:42] <rick_h> yea
[13:42] <jrwren> e.g. I see AGPL and I immediately close the browser tab. I don't care if it is the greatest software ever.
[13:43] <jrwren> e.g. I see JVM and I read a bit and then close the browser tab. I don't care if it is the greatest software ever.
[13:43] <rick_h> I've not gotten that, what's up with that?
[13:43] <rick_h> the agpl thing, you mean purely as a library license?
[13:43] <jrwren> its too much friction for me.
[13:43] <jrwren> its a matter of what I value.
[13:43] <jrwren> I've come to value not having to care aobut using open source and just using it.
[13:44] <jrwren> I've come to value not dealing with my companies legal dept, no matter what company I'm at.
[13:48] <brousch> rick_h: You would get more contributers if Bookie were in Django, but that doesn't mean you should use Django, unless your goals are to have a lot of contributions from Django devs.
[13:48] <rick_h> brousch: yea, understand. Was just the most close-to-home example I had of this kind of 'things that are popular are popular for a reason"
[13:49] <cmaloney> UNfortunately people are reading it as "you should use what other people use" as though he were prescribing no innovation
[13:49] <cmaloney> which is completely off-base
[13:49] <jrwren> just because it is popular doesn't mean it is the best and it definitely does not mean it is right in all cases
[13:49] <rick_h> yea, like I said, it come across on initial read pretty poorly. At least did for me and I'm sure others
[13:49] <jrwren> and it especially does not mean it is right for your project, or my project.
[13:50] <jrwren> e.g. MySQL and JVM are not things in which I am interested.
[13:50] <rick_h> the title alone does it, I think it should have been more 'doesn't have to mean your playground'
[13:50] <cmaloney> He needed to frame the playground metaphor better
[13:50] <cmaloney> It's not a playground, it's a house with a porch
[13:51] <cmaloney> if your porch requires keys and secret handshakes to get your attention then people will move on
[13:51] <cmaloney> but if you want people to come up on your porch, and knock on the door, a big "welcome" sign never hurt anyone
[13:52] <cmaloney> And coming from github's competitor, github is the open door to the party by comparison
[13:52] <cmaloney> It's way too easy to contribute via github
[13:52] <jrwren> where too easy is a good thing
[13:53] <cmaloney> Exactly
[13:53] <cmaloney> There's someone on the front porch handing out Solo cups
[13:53] <rick_h> where I get cranky is when popularity means people develop for just that thing
[13:53] <jrwren> to the point that now projects errect artificial walls and say "we don't accept pull requests, go jump through these hoops instead"
[13:53] <rick_h> I'm said travisci is github tied
[13:53] <jrwren> I'm looking at you openstack.
[13:53] <rick_h> they could have worked on anything
[13:53] <rick_h> jrwren: though they process a lot of pull requests/etc in openstack
[13:53] <rick_h> they've got some things right
[13:54] <jrwren> *grumble*
[13:54] <cmaloney> But that's the thing: github is pretty much where people look for stuff now
[13:54] <rick_h> cmaloney: and that makes me nervous
[13:54] <jrwren> I think a lot of the github/travis stuff is because they are mixed model. they charge for that stuff and make good revenue doing so.
[13:54] <cmaloney> if you don't see someone's project on github, you'll grumble too
[13:54] <jrwren> its only no-charge for open source
[13:55] <jrwren> i think google and hackernews are still where people look.
[13:55] <rick_h> jrwren: can you pay travis to run non-github sources?
[13:55] <jrwren> word of mouth
[13:55] <jrwren> rick_h: I don't think so. That is a business decision by travis.
[13:55] <brousch> I still put some things on SF
[13:56] <cmaloney> Considering Alex Gaynor went off on having to use Sourceforge, I also find his comments a little amusing
[13:56] <jrwren> ugh, SF
[13:56] <cmaloney> jrwren: Exactly
[13:56] <rick_h> I mean, I say this stuff but all of my own things are git on github and such. I still have my reservations about it.
[13:56] <cmaloney> github has low friction to contribution
[13:57] <brousch> But truth be told, I put things on SF because I see a lead SF dev every week.
[13:58] <jrwren> brousch: friends and aquaintances are powerful like that.
[13:58] <rick_h> you talk with a LP guy every day :P (please don't put your stuff there)
[13:59] <jrwren> you still work on LP?
[13:59] <jrwren> LP is so close to awesome. I wonder how much work it would take to get it awesome.
[14:00] <rick_h> jrwren: no, there's just a couple guys on it these days
[14:00] <rick_h> I was just poking at brousch
[14:00] <jrwren> :)
[14:02] <cmaloney> Yeah, but I think Brondsema knows where brousch lives
[14:02] <cmaloney> That said, rick_h has a tendency to want to blow up places. :)
[14:10]  * brousch shivers at the thought of using launchpad
[14:39] <jrwren> pythonistas, a=object();a.name='bob';  fails because object has no attribute and is "special".
[14:40] <jrwren> class MyObject(object):pass
[14:40] <jrwren> a=MyObject();a.name='bob' works fine.
[14:41] <jrwren> ignoring for a moment that this bothers me, do you use a built in type (not dict) as a bag of attributes?
[14:41] <jrwren> i want a mutable bag of attributes.
[14:41] <jrwren> mutable namedtuple if you will :)
[14:41] <brousch> I would dict it
[14:42] <jrwren> recordtype I guess.
[14:42] <brousch> I think there was a blog post last week on that topic
[14:43] <jrwren> ha!  http://code.activestate.com/recipes/576555/
[14:43] <jrwren> maybe I'll just name my class.
[14:44] <brousch> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2013/08/python-dicts-vs-classes.html
[14:44] <jrwren> exactly
[14:45] <brousch> cmaloney even commented
[15:13] <rick_h_> cmaloney: need to hand this over to john http://michael.otacoo.com/postgresql-2/postgres-9-4-feature-highlight-refresh-concurrently-a-materialized-view/
[15:14] <cmaloney> rick_h_: Already mentioned materialized views
[15:15] <rick_h_> yea, we had talked about them before, but pgsql 9.3 out today with them woot
[15:15] <cmaloney> Trying ever so slowly to remove the intertia of MySQL. :)
[15:15] <cmaloney> That's awesome.
[15:26] <jrwren> openstack uses mysql... :(
[15:30] <greg-g> mariadb at least, right?
[15:30] <greg-g> :)
[15:30] <jrwren> not in devstack :(
[15:31] <jrwren> i dunno, is apt-get install mysql somehow magically maria?
[15:31] <jcastro> no
[15:31] <jcastro> it's mysql
[15:31] <rick_h_> jrwren: I think there's plans for it to be
[17:29] <rick_h_> wow, the stink made it to ars http://r.bmark.us/u/c76b600bd11f31
[17:29] <rick_h_> chat-inducing topic #2 of the day
[17:30] <greg-g> wait, what was the first? (I didn't read scrollback)
[17:30] <brousch> _stink_ is on ars?
[17:31] <cmaloney> Not _stink_, the Mir patch removal kerfluffle this weekend by Intel
[17:32] <_stink_> another hazard of my nick.
[17:32] <cmaloney> oh snap
[17:32] <cmaloney> (was one of the reasons I stopped highlighting "snap")
[17:32] <_stink_> hah
[17:32] <rick_h_> greg-g: http://r.bmark.us/u/ec79bc2177983f was the first one
[17:34] <greg-g> aha
[17:37] <greg-g> oh hey rick_h_, do you want to do a quick interview about Bookie?
[17:43] <rick_h_> greg-g: sure, for something?
[17:44] <greg-g> rick_h_: the FSF :)
[17:44] <rick_h_> greg-g: oh, sure I guess.
[17:44] <greg-g> I know John Sullivan, I linked to your r.bmark for the Intel/Mir thing, and mentioned it was a buddy's project, he's doing interviews a la: https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/interview-with-bernd-kreuss-of-torchat
[17:44]  * rick_h_ goes to look
[20:33] <jrwren> the more I learn, the more I think openstack is a ghetto
[20:33] <jrwren> :)
[20:33] <greg-g> :(
[20:51] <brousch> open sores ghetto?
[21:23] <cmaloney> Open Source is a ghetto
[21:24] <cmaloney> There, I said it. :)
[21:24] <greg-g> because all those SV startups aren't
[21:25] <greg-g> or should I more positively say: at least we have SV startups to look good in comparison to (minus the flashy graphics and sports cars)
[21:25] <cmaloney> I know nothing of the startup scene
[21:26] <cmaloney> other than it seems to attract a self-selecting crowd of folks who think they can change the world with the equivalent of an internet-enabled kleenex box
[21:27] <cmaloney> And that nobody else has done internet-enabled kleenex boxes better
[21:27] <greg-g> solutionism
[21:27] <greg-g> tech solutionism at its best
[21:27] <cmaloney> solopsisticism
[21:29] <cmaloney> solopsistic solutioneering is what I'm going to put on my business cards. :)
[23:20] <greg-g> https://identi.ca/greg/note/WsUIhhldQxqH_kgKtboQGw