[02:02] <philipballew> jono, I submitted a request for some community funds today and was hopping you could take a look at it in the next day or so if possible.
[04:52] <jose> jono, mhall119: ping
[06:51] <dholbach> good morning
[06:55] <elfy> hi dholbach
[06:55] <dholbach> hi elfy
[07:08] <philipballew> dholbach, Hey dude
[07:08] <dholbach> hi philipballew
[07:15] <philipballew> dholbach, This semester in school I am taking German. It seems like a cool language so far.
[07:16] <dholbach> nice... I hope you're going to continue to like it ;-)
[07:22] <philipballew> dholbach, Thanks. I'll let you know how it goes!
[07:22] <dholbach> :)
[12:34] <smartboyhw> dholbach_, the Hack Days are over, and http://developer.ubuntu.com/ isn't updated:P
[12:37] <dholbach> smartboyhw, dpm and mhall119 might be able to answer that
[12:37] <dpm> smartboyhw, I'm on it, thanks for the heads up
[12:38] <dpm> smartboyhw, we thought if we leave it there for a few days more, we might trick you into contributing to core apps again ;)
[12:38] <smartboyhw> dpm, heh
[13:30] <cprofitt> morning all
[13:32] <mhall119> jose: pong
[13:43] <SergioMeneses> cprofitt, \o
[13:43] <SergioMeneses> morning
[13:58] <dholbach> dpm, when exactly does the app showdown finish again?
[13:58] <dpm> dholbach, Sunday 15th Sept 23:59 UTC
[13:58] <dholbach> thanks
[14:03] <cprofitt> hey dholbach
[14:03] <smartboyhw> cprofitt, nice post
[14:04] <smartboyhw> I assume you are running for LoCo Council?:P
[14:04] <cprofitt> smartboyhw: No, I am not
[14:04] <smartboyhw> cprofitt, ok
[14:04] <cprofitt> I am on the Community Council and firmly believe that people should not sit on two councils at the same time
[14:04] <smartboyhw> Yeah, CC is enough for you
[14:05] <cprofitt> we need to develop more leaders and having people take multiple leadership spots does not help accomplish that goal
[14:07] <SergioMeneses> cprofitt, totally agree
[14:07] <smartboyhw> SergioMeneses, are you re-applying?
[14:07] <smartboyhw> (I think you are one of the people ending the appointment)
[14:08] <SergioMeneses> smartboyhw, I dont know, perhaps
[14:08] <SergioMeneses> I am still thinking about it
[14:09] <smartboyhw> SergioMeneses, sure
[14:38] <jose> mhall119: hey, did you know about the app design clinic today?
[14:42] <PabloRubianes> jose: I just email you
[14:42] <PabloRubianes> :)
[14:42] <jose> PabloRubianes: seen it, will respond in a while (connection is super slow atm)
[14:43] <PabloRubianes> jose: no rush, I got a mistaken email address
[14:43] <PabloRubianes> your old email :P
[14:44] <jose> yeah, happens :P
 I am on the Community Council and firmly believe that people should not sit on two councils at the same time - I totally agree with that
[14:49] <popey> sabdfl is on two. ☻
[14:50] <smartboyhw> popey, that's an exception:P
[14:51] <smartboyhw> Nobody is in more councils then sabdfl
[14:52] <popey> I was on 3
[14:54] <smartboyhw> popey, eh hum, it is "is", not "was"
[14:54] <smartboyhw> I don't care for how many councils you *were* in
[14:54] <popey> ʘ‿ಠ
[14:54] <popey> Golly. That's rude.
[14:54] <smartboyhw> popey, nice emoticon:P
[14:54] <popey> ok. never mind.
[14:55] <smartboyhw> popey, I do care for how many councils you *are* in, and your tech skills are brilliant;P
[14:55] <smartboyhw> That's what I care, basically:P
[14:59] <mhall119> jose: I did, yes
[14:59] <mhall119> why?
[14:59] <jose> because I wasn't told at all, didn't know about it until yesterday
[14:59] <jose> who was hosting it?
[15:00] <jose> (I needed the details for the calendar)
[15:00] <popey> I did
[15:00] <popey> I didnt know we had to tell you.
[15:01] <popey> Where is the process for making UoA Hangouts documented?
[15:01] <jose> let me grab a link
[15:02] <jose> we have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OnAir/Submissions, although a simple email to onair@ubuntu.com saying 'we'll be doing this at this time and date on uonair, and he will be hosting it' is good enough
[15:04] <popey> thanks
[15:04] <popey> jose: that one will happen every week
[15:04] <jose> what are the nicks of the people who will be in the hangout? so I can add them to the calendar and AirBot can manage questions with them
[15:05] <popey> that depends
[15:05] <popey> different people each week
[15:05] <popey> but me and katie_ initially
[15:05] <jose> great, if there are any other nicks participating just let me know a couple days before and it'll be all done
[15:06] <popey> k
[15:13] <dholbach> jono_, hey hey
[15:20] <dholbach> jono_, hanging out?
[15:45] <philipballew> jono_, got a minute for a pm?
[16:12] <jono_> philipballew, sure
[16:13] <jono_> dholbach, hey
[16:13] <jono_> sorry, was in another call, I marked myself as No in the invite
[16:13] <dholbach> ah ok
[16:13] <dholbach> I didn't check that bit
[16:19] <jono_> bkerensa, where did you FUD blog entry go?
[16:19] <jono_> I don't see it anymore
[16:31] <jono_> bkerensa, http://benjaminkerensa.com/2013/09/10/ubuntu-voice-feedback-market-research is 404ing
[16:33] <philipballew> 404!
[16:34] <cprofitt> 8?
[16:34] <jono_> 72!
[16:35] <SergioMeneses> philipballew, look http://t.co/VdH0DHoLdg
[16:35] <cprofitt> Yeah... that works better.
[16:35] <SergioMeneses> cprofitt, jono_ \o
[16:36] <cprofitt> SergioMeneses: I used to play WoW, but gave it up for Guild Wars
[16:36] <jono_> hey SergioMeneses
[16:36] <SergioMeneses> cprofitt, really? that is awesome
[16:36] <cprofitt> Yeah... I played on Earthen Ring and led an alliance back in the early days
[16:37] <cprofitt> played a paladin, druid and warlock
[16:37] <philipballew> I need to get in on these games one day, but have never been able to call myself a gamer.
[16:37] <SergioMeneses> cprofitt, :') I am a paladin
[16:37]  * SergioMeneses hugs cprofitt 
[16:37] <SergioMeneses> btw jono_ are you busy?
[16:39] <jono_> SergioMeneses, a little, what's up?
[16:39] <SergioMeneses> pm
[17:03] <dholbach> all right my friends - I call it a day
[17:03] <dholbach> see you tomorrow!
[17:03] <cprofitt> see ya dholbach
[17:04] <SergioMeneses> dholbach, see you
[17:58] <bkerensa> jono_: It was being flooded with negative comments and also your comments I disliked so I removed it.
[17:59] <jono_> bkerensa, erm, ok
[18:01] <bkerensa> jono_: Did you think fanboys were not going to pounce on me when you left that comment yesterday? Clearly you underestimate the bacon effect.
[18:02] <jono_> bkerensa, I don't think the negative comments were because I commented
[18:02] <jono_> I think the negative comments were because people disagree with your viewpoint
[18:02] <jono_> and speaking personally, I would not delete a blog entry because people disagree with me in the comments
[18:02] <jono_> every blog entry I have ever written and people have disagreed strongly with, I have left online
[18:03] <jono_> I think it is important to be accountable for our words
[18:03] <jono_> but it is your blog, your choice
[18:03] <jono_> this is just my opinion
[18:04] <cjohnston> 19
[18:04] <jono_> an example being: http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/12/07/on-richard-stallman-and-ubuntu/ :-)
[18:06] <bkerensa> jono_: Sure I remember that post and like you said its my choice and I think that post needed to go versus explaining why I halted commenting on it.
[18:07] <bkerensa> jono_: plus its not like it disappears completely if I elect to remove it
[18:07] <bkerensa> http://bd.summit.net/articles/2013/09/10/benjamin-kerensa-ubuntu-voice-feedback-or-market-research/
[18:07] <jono_> bkerensa, np, like I said, your blog, your choice
[18:07] <jono_> makes no difference to me :-)
[18:30] <jcastro> lol
[18:30] <jcastro> come on, that post is crazy
[18:31] <bkerensa> jcastro: What you dislike the Steller's Jay?
[18:31] <jcastro> "I don't like that Ubuntu is not using Wayland, therefore Ubuntu doesn't listen to users" makes no sense
[18:33] <bkerensa> jcastro: why does it make no sense? Have you surveyed users at all to see what they think? I know there was solid support behind using Wayland and it was quite controversial when Mir was announced because Wayland was previously promised (repeatedly even)
[18:33] <bkerensa> This is why publicly available feedback from users is good
[18:33] <jcastro> because community development is not "run a web poll to see what users think"
[18:33] <jcastro> no OSS project works like that
[18:33] <cjohnston> meritocracy
[18:33] <jcastro> users want stable, high performance, OS that works.
[18:34] <bkerensa> jcastro: oh really none? https://dnt-dashboard.mozilla.org/
[18:34] <bkerensa> jcastro: Mozilla takes user feedback on every product it makes and it shapes every product
[18:34] <jcastro> If that's Mir or Wayland has _zero_ to do with running a poll
[18:34] <bkerensa> so
[18:34] <bkerensa> thats absolutely false
[18:34] <jcastro> who says we don't?
[18:34] <bkerensa> ok
[18:34] <bkerensa> no staff
[18:34] <bkerensa> who in here has been surveyed by Canonical?
[18:34] <jcastro> ok, so basically ... if I convince 10,000 people that Firefox should dump Gecko for blink ... then they'll do that?
[18:34] <bkerensa> anyone?
[18:34] <jcastro> of course they won't
[18:35] <bkerensa> if it had been feedback early very likely
[18:35] <jcastro> "Firefox refuses to switch to a different rendering engine, refuses to listen to end users" would be ridiculous!
[18:35] <bkerensa> Mozilla is feedback driven
[18:35] <bkerensa> and community driven
[18:35] <bkerensa> not business not driven
[18:35] <bkerensa> Have you read the Mozilla Manifesto?
[18:35] <cjohnston> isn't do not track tracking ?
[18:35] <jcastro> yes.
[18:36] <jcastro> it's like, users want better graphics support
[18:36] <bkerensa> cjohnston: Its opt-in based and anonymized
[18:36] <jcastro> so we made Mir so we can give them than on every form factor
[18:36] <bkerensa> cjohnston: by default Mozilla does not collect any data from users unless they are running nightly and it is always anonymized in any case
[18:36] <jcastro> we don't run a web poll to be like "ok what do you all think about doing this?"
[18:36] <bkerensa> jcastro: I hardly need the marketing speech
[18:36] <bkerensa> :)
[18:37] <bkerensa> jcastro: if its what users wanted then why is not one flavor supporting Mir?
[18:37] <jcastro> users don't want display servers
[18:37] <bkerensa> if its such a great experience and has such great support why has not a single Ubuntu fork considered using it?
[18:37] <jcastro> they don't care, they want a working computer
[18:37] <bkerensa> oh users dont care?
[18:37] <jcastro> the developers make the choice of how best to deliver that to users
[18:37] <jcastro> of course not
[18:38] <bkerensa> maybe Mac Users that Canonical is trying to target dont care
[18:38] <jcastro> you really think my wife cares if she's running X or wayland or mir?
[18:38] <bkerensa> but I care about all the software I run
[18:38] <bkerensa> I care about the drivers I use
[18:38] <jcastro> so run wayland! What's the problem?
[18:38] <bkerensa> I care about the networking stack
[18:40] <jcastro> I don't really see the problem you're trying to solve
[18:41] <jcastro> other than "I don't like mir"
[18:41] <bkerensa> jcastro: the problem is unsolvable with Canonical driving Ubuntu
[18:41] <jcastro> which is fair enough
[18:41] <bkerensa> :)
[18:41] <bkerensa> which is why the flavors are the best option for users who want to have a say in their desktop
[18:41] <bkerensa> because quite frankly
[18:42] <jcastro> ok so let's say I want Xubuntu to switch to KDE. If they don't do that they don't listen to the community?
[18:42] <bkerensa> Ubuntu stopped being Linux for Human Beings a long time ago
[18:42] <jcastro> dude please.
[18:42] <jcastro> you have _zero_ evidence to support that
[18:42] <jcastro> other than you don't like Mir
[18:42] <bkerensa> How many time has the release time objected to sabdfl pushing stuff into release after freeze? three cycles now? Its been a wreck each time
[18:42] <bkerensa> why do development processes exist if Canonical does not follow them
[18:42] <bkerensa> where is the meritocracy there?
[18:43] <bkerensa> jcastro: Xubuntu switching to KDE? Xubuntu is a XFCE desktop OS
[18:43] <jcastro> the people putting stuff in ubuntu have release and quality criteria to pass
[18:43] <bkerensa> yes
[18:43] <bkerensa> and we have a thing called Freeze
[18:43] <jcastro> bkerensa: oh but I want Xubuntu to be the KDE desktop. If they don't listen to me then they're not listening to the community.
[18:43] <jcastro> that's basically your argument
[18:44] <bkerensa> thats the thing... There is an alternative there where if you want KDE you use Kubuntu
[18:44] <bkerensa> and thats why I said flavors are the best option
[18:44] <bkerensa> you can use a DE of your choice
[18:45] <bkerensa> and still have input that is actually valued
[18:45] <jcastro> I don't get how you can claim that input isn't valued
[18:45] <jcastro> just because you don't agree with a decision
[18:46] <bkerensa> jcastro: when members of the tech board/security team are not even replied to on bugs that alone shows input is disregarded if Canonical is set on doing something
[18:47] <jcastro> people get ignored on bugs all the tiem
[18:47] <jcastro> it's not a conspiracy
[18:47] <bkerensa> jcastro: but members of the tech board which sits high on the meritocratic totem pole should not be ignored
[18:47] <bkerensa> otherwise its not a meritocracy is it?
[18:48] <jcastro> if it's an issue then surely the person would bring it up on the dev list or something
[18:48] <bkerensa> they did
[18:48] <bkerensa> and blogged about it
[18:48] <bkerensa> and comment on a bug
[18:48] <bkerensa> and assigned it to desktop team
[18:48] <bkerensa> and desktop team ignored it
[18:49] <jcastro> well go yell at them
[18:50] <bkerensa> anyways this is pointless conversation... I'm not going to convince you otherwise and your not going to convince me differently
[18:50] <jcastro> I'm not trying to convince you of anything
[18:50] <bkerensa> jcastro: thats futile... I have been asking them for weeks for release critical stuff for doc and they have not responded
[18:50] <bkerensa> whats the point anymore?
[18:50] <bkerensa> why do you think I dont want to contribute anymore?
[18:50] <jcastro> other than everytime you make something up about us not caring about the community that I am going to call you out on it
[18:50] <bkerensa> its a joke to swim against the current
[18:51] <bkerensa> jcastro: call me out all day there are plenty of people in the community who feel similarly to the way I do
[18:51] <bkerensa> and outside of the community
[18:51] <bkerensa> and former Canonical employees
[18:51] <bkerensa> lets not pretend like its just me
[18:51] <bkerensa> :)
[18:51] <jcastro> "I don't like these decisions being made therefore they don't listen to the community" is made up hogwash
[18:52] <bkerensa> jcastro: then why are we discussing Firefox not being default next cycle if Canonical listens to the community?
[18:52] <bkerensa> the discussion this cycle was overwhelming against changing to Chromium
[18:52] <bkerensa> ?
[18:52] <bkerensa> exactly
[18:52] <jcastro> overwhelming?
[18:53] <jcastro> let me guess ... you ran a poll.
[18:53] <cjohnston> was it overwhelmingly or the loudest
[18:53] <bkerensa> jcastro: OMG did
[18:53] <bkerensa> jcastro: the mailing list discussions were also almost all against
[18:53] <bkerensa> there were two people who supported it
[18:53] <jcastro> dude, no project on the planet makes technical decisions via web polls
[18:53] <bkerensa> ok
[18:53] <bkerensa> but on mailing lists and at UDS they do
[18:53] <bkerensa> and the feedback was against
[18:53] <bkerensa> and Jason Warner keeps pushing it
[18:53] <cjohnston> I supported it.. but I didn't reply to an email or take a survey
[18:54] <bkerensa> despite cycle after cycle of people saying no
[18:54] <jcastro> I supported it
[18:54] <jcastro> I also didn't vote on the webpoll
[18:54] <bkerensa> this is not the first time he has proposed it
[18:54] <cjohnston> jcastro: I guess it was just you and me
[18:54] <jcastro> probably because tons of people have been asking about chromium
[18:55] <jcastro> and it's been brought up since UDS in Belgium
[18:55] <bkerensa> I dont see a comment from either of you in the discussion
[18:55] <bkerensa> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2013-August/004271.html
[18:55] <jcastro> of course not
[18:55] <jcastro> because _I don't care_
[18:55] <jcastro> I don't want to care
[18:56] <jcastro> that's why I use Ubuntu!
[18:56] <jcastro> pick the best browser, I have more important things to do
[18:56] <cjohnston> bkerensa: I think we both said that we didn't take a poll, and I said that I didn't email...
[18:56] <bkerensa> ok
[18:56] <cjohnston> I support switching to chromium
[18:56] <bkerensa> so you were not involved in the discussion
[18:56] <cjohnston> but I don't care what ships default
[18:57] <cjohnston> nope..
[18:57] <cjohnston> so.. again..
[18:57] <bkerensa> well the discussion and feedback was mostly not in support of
[18:57] <cjohnston> Was it the overwhelming support, or was it the loudest
[18:57] <bkerensa> which is why it did not change
[18:57] <cjohnston> i.e. the loudest
[18:57] <bkerensa> but Jason despite that is planning to push again next cycle
[18:57] <bkerensa> if the support wasnt there then drop it
[18:57] <cjohnston> the people who supported it have no huge reason to 'debate' the switch
[18:57] <cjohnston> 3
[19:01] <bkerensa> mhall119: its interesting to see you in expats? :) Are you using Debian?
[19:01] <jcastro> debian rebrands firefox, they don't listen to the community
[19:02] <jcastro> See how silly it all becomes?
[19:25] <bkerensa> jono: http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/03/18/recent-ubuntu-community-refinements/
[19:25] <bkerensa> did the Leadership Meetings ever start happening?
[19:26] <pleia2> no, CC never followed up with jono to schedule another
[19:26]  * pleia2 has been busy this summer :\
[19:27] <elfy> and the FC often can't make things like that - it took 2 or 3 goes to get us to a CC meeting
[19:29] <bkerensa> pleia2: >(<o.o>)<
[19:29] <bkerensa> pleia2: would it work maybe at a vUDS as a session?
[19:30] <pleia2> bkerensa: maybe, if we wanted to wait that long for the next
[19:31] <bkerensa> :)
[19:31] <elfy> you'd not be very likely to get us on a webcam
[19:32] <elfy> I mean - for 1/6th of us you have no chance and for the other 5/6th little chance
[19:33] <bkerensa> elfy: especially since Google opens up that data to NSA :)
[19:33] <elfy> I couldn't care less about that
[19:33] <bkerensa> elfy: camera shy? :)
[19:34] <elfy> no - I just don't want people to know what I look like - we've had incidents in the past
[19:48] <mhall119> bkerensa: I've been in that channel since it started
[20:07] <jono> bkerensa, as pleia2 said we haven't had an opportunity to schedule them, pleia2 would it help if I coordinate one and mail the leadership team as before?
[20:07] <jono> pleia2, I think if we get you, some other CC folks, a TB member, LC members etc, that could be fun
[20:07] <jono> but I know you are busy
[20:08] <pleia2> jono: yeah, that would at least get the ball rolling so we can start sorting out schedules
[20:08] <jono> pleia2, np, maybe we can do it later next week
[20:08] <pleia2> I'm traveling next week, but the following week I should be around
[20:08] <jono> pleia2, ditto
[20:08] <jono> pleia2, are you at LinuxCon?
[20:08] <pleia2> jono: nah, heading up to seattle for an openstack sprint
[20:08] <pleia2> (get to see lifeless, yay!)
[20:09] <jono> pleia2, oh awesome :-)
[20:10] <elfy> jono: the trouble with these hangouts is they stop some people participating
[20:11] <pleia2> elfy: we already have fully open community council meetings on IRC, and a mailing list people can mail, the hangout is just another avenue of contacting councils/leaders
[20:11] <elfy> I know that
[20:11] <pleia2> so it doesn't really replace participation elsewhere, just supplimental for folks who like video
[20:12] <jono> elfy, every communication method stops people participating
[20:12] <jono> but we need to pick something to move forward
[20:12] <jono> as pleia2 said, this is supplmental
[20:12] <elfy> if there's really a want to have a meeting with leaders of different communities then it should be in a way that all will be able to take part
[20:12] <cjohnston> jono: you headed to New Orleans?
[20:12] <jono> cjohnston, yup
[20:13] <pleia2> not everyone can get on IRC either (company firewalls), or use the forums (content filtering)
[20:13] <cjohnston> jono: cool
[20:13] <jono> elfy, there will always be something people can't access
[20:13] <pleia2> so while we do have IRC meetings and discussions on email too, there will never be a method that everyone likes and is comfortable with
[20:13] <elfy> pleia2: whatever - I'm just saying
[20:13] <jono> the only consistent balance for everyone is mail
[20:13] <jono> which sucks for meetings :-)
[20:13] <elfy> I'm not interested enough to argue the point
[20:14] <elfy> just so long as you don't all wander along thinking that google hangouts are the best thing since sliced bread ;)
[20:14] <PabloRubianes> timezones suck too :P
[20:14] <pleia2> I guess my point is that we *do* have meetings elsewhere too, everyone is welcome at CC meetings and we now even have specific meetings where we ask leaders from the communities to come chat
[20:15] <pleia2> the leadership hangout is just extra
[20:15] <elfy> good lord - please read what I say
[20:15] <pleia2> I don't like hangouts either
[20:15] <elfy> it's not a leadership hangout - it's a hangout where some people can participate
[20:16] <pleia2> I give up
[20:16] <elfy> so do I
[20:18] <IdleOne> Not trying to stir the pot, but I think what elfy is trying to say is that sometimes it feels like google hangouts is the first comminucation method that is being chosen for ubuntu stuff.
[20:19] <PabloRubianes> we could use IRC for this meeting
[20:21] <elfy> IdleOne: yea - more or less - not very well though, it's the end of a long day :)
[20:22] <IdleOne> elfy: I think the point is that there is no one perfect method/time/day.
[20:22] <IdleOne> We're all just trying to do our best :)
[20:22] <pleia2> IdleOne: that doesn't even make sense, we have 24 IRC-based community council meetings per year, we've had 1 leadership hangout ever, I don't see how you could reasonably make that argument at all
[20:23] <pleia2> if anything the argument should be that IRC has been our favored communication method and we're excluding folks who can't use it or aren't comfortable with it
[20:23] <IdleOne> pleia2: I didn't mean to imply that the CC seemed to default to hangouts
[20:25] <elfy> I certainly wasn't talking about CC meetings - but specifically about one - the leadership meetings - which has 100% been done on google hangouts so far :)
[20:25] <pleia2> I guess I don't really make a distinction
[20:26] <elfy> the conversation isn't about all of the ubuntu meetings - just the one type :)
[20:32] <pleia2> so that's the issue, I see all CC meetings as pretty much leadership meetings, I've been trying for a couple years to get more people to come to them, part of the reason we have scheduled check-ins with teams now is so people actually come so we can get caught up, so I always saw the leadership hangout as a CC meeting+
[20:33] <pleia2> rather than its own distinct thing
[20:33] <elfy> :)
[20:49] <pleia2> anyone know how to relaunch the touch intro tour after dismissing it? mhall119?
[20:50] <pleia2> (prepping for an Ubuntu Hour tonight were an attendee has a flashed tablet, woo)
[20:55] <jcastro> you can mute video on google hangouts btw
[20:55] <jcastro> I do it all the time
[20:59] <pleia2> nm, found someone in -touch
[21:00] <mhall119> pleia2: there's a long command you can run to reset it....I don't recall what it is though
[21:00] <mhall119> pleia2: try asking in #ubuntu-touch
[21:00] <pleia2> see above :)
[21:00] <mhall119> ah, cool :)
[21:01] <pleia2> thanks though
[21:02] <bkerensa> jcastro: you can mute the video but the voice is still captured and sent to NSA :)
[21:02] <bkerensa> g+ is spyware!
[21:02] <bkerensa> oh thats right I use g+