[02:49] <ScottK> BTW, my schedule changed and I can't make it tomorrow.
[07:27] <lordievader> Good morning.
[08:55] <Riddell> I just threw out my oven, need to get a new one for this grilling
[08:56] <apachelogger> Riddell: oh noes
[08:56] <apachelogger> better hurry then :P
[08:57] <apachelogger> and how did that creep into the topic again?
[08:57]  * apachelogger squints and goes back to lunchpad
[08:57] <yofel> I added it? It'll fly out later anyway
[08:57] <yofel> after getting burnt to crisp
[08:58] <apachelogger> unless we forget :P
[09:01] <jussi> Happy friday the 13th everyone
[09:03] <Riddell> howard's lucky day
[09:03] <jussi> I hope he hasnt got friggatriskaidekaphobia :D
[09:04] <jussi> (yes, that word is supposedly english, not finnish)
[09:07] <Riddell> it's a western disease, it doesn't exist in China fortunately
[10:13] <smartboyhw> http://hk.digitalfreedomfoundation.org/sfd2013/schedule \o/
[10:18] <smartboyhw> yofel, nice channel topic-.-
[10:19] <smartboyhw> And what is friggatriskaidekaphobia? (I can't get the first part of the word)
[11:17] <apachelogger> kubotu: 8ball will smartboyhw become dev today?
[11:17]  * kubotu shakes the magic 8-ball for apachelogger ... why the hell are you asking me?
[11:17] <apachelogger> kubotu: pff
[11:17] <apachelogger> kubotu: 8ball am I hungry?
[11:17]  * kubotu shakes the magic 8-ball for apachelogger ... yes
[11:17] <soee> good morning
[11:17] <apachelogger> yo soee
[11:18] <soee> kubotu, 8ball shadeslayer is not hungry?
[11:18]  * kubotu shakes the magic 8-ball for soee ... outlook not so good
[11:18] <soee> ;o
[11:19] <apachelogger> yofel: pingies
[11:19] <yofel> hm=
[11:20] <yofel> ..?
[11:20] <apachelogger> yofel: you did lunchpad branch queries, no? did you get 503/timeouts?
[11:20] <apachelogger> getBranches on neon times out 19/20 times
[11:21] <smartboyhw> Heh, kubotu really knows a lot
[11:21] <apachelogger> oh, actually I wrote the branch moving script
[11:21] <apachelogger> ololo
[11:21] <yofel> hm, it's been a while since I used getBranches on neon
[11:22] <smartboyhw> kubotu: 8ball is apachelogger grumpy?
[11:22]  * kubotu shakes the magic 8-ball for smartboyhw ... all signs point to no
[11:22] <smartboyhw> Nice one
[11:22] <yofel> launchpad always has issues with mass data 
[11:22] <apachelogger> yofel: apparently it worked for kubuntu-packaging
[11:22] <yofel> there's a branch_checkout.py in the neon tools that uses getBranches too
[11:22] <yofel> and I know that worked
[11:22] <yofel> but I haven't used it in quite a while
[11:23] <yofel> getting the full list of neon recipes did time out 99% of the time in the past but I think they fixed the query
[11:23] <apachelogger> well
[11:23] <apachelogger> oh
[11:23] <apachelogger> kubuntu-packaging only has 100 branches
[11:23] <apachelogger> that would explain it I guess
[11:23] <apachelogger> neon holds 501
[11:24] <apachelogger> yofel: yeah, recipes is unusable in general
[11:24] <apachelogger> e.g. if you query recipes on project-neon5 (the project) you get one recipe
[11:24] <apachelogger> even though all branches of project-neon5 are the packaging branches so they are all associated with at least one recipe
[11:25] <yofel> yeah, dunno. You need to query that by owner - but that'll give you like 150 recipes for neon by now
[11:25] <yofel> if it doesn't time out
[11:26] <apachelogger> that if it doesn't time out part is what worries me :P
[11:26] <apachelogger> like if we had 151 recipes, would that still not time out...
[11:26] <apachelogger> well
[11:27] <apachelogger> I think the best option now is to manually query through project-neon5
[11:27] <apachelogger> getBranches -> for each branch get recipe
[11:28] <yofel> lol
[11:28] <yofel> my approach to the issue: http://paste.kde.org/p871d2e93 line 50ff ^^
[11:28] <apachelogger> which actually makes you wonder what project.recipes does that it only returns one recipe, even though it should be like 15
[11:29] <yofel> actually, I think I've seen lazr issues with lists every now and then
[11:29] <apachelogger> yofel: arrr, yeah I thought about link building :P
[11:29] <yofel> like I query all packages in a PPA and after 75 the list simply stops
[11:29] <yofel> it doesn't if I first cache everything into a local list
[11:29] <apachelogger> thought TBH if you start linkbuilding you might just as well rewrite launchpadlib in a sane language using a sane library :P
[11:30] <apachelogger> yofel: meh
[11:30] <apachelogger> well
[11:30] <apachelogger> -> lunch
[11:44] <smartboyhw> -> dinner, will come back soon enough for the meeting
[12:12] <BluesKaj> hey folks
[12:16] <smartboyhw> back
[12:30] <yofel> tick, tack, tick, tack, tick, tack
[12:30]  * yofel is evil, he knows
[12:30] <smartboyhw> Um, that's longer-.-
[12:31] <smartboyhw> That's certainly shorter!
[12:32] <yofel> even shorter ^^
[12:32] <smartboyhw> LOL
[12:33] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, that's longer-.-
[12:33] <smartboyhw> (Or is it?)
[12:33] <smartboyhw> alas
[12:33] <smartboyhw> LOL
[12:34] <smartboyhw> (bpo = backports)
[12:34] <yofel> erm, that's starting to get riddiculous
[12:34] <smartboyhw> -.-
[12:34] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, no, it's MILESTONED bugs
[12:35] <yofel> hey, like that it looks like we have no bugs :P
[12:35] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, that is specificly MILESTONE bugs
[12:35] <smartboyhw> Get on with it
[12:36] <smartboyhw> UH HUM
[12:36] <apachelogger> the fact that we have bugs in the topic to begin with...
[12:36] <apachelogger> actually that's a fun story
[12:36] <smartboyhw> (That's SI unit:P)
[12:36] <apachelogger> because I am reasonable certain 99% of the people working on kubuntu actually think that those are all the bugs we have
[12:36] <smartboyhw> (No it isnt')
[12:36] <apachelogger> or I must assume that
[12:37] <apachelogger> because clearly they have not ever touched the other bugs
[12:37] <apachelogger> ololo
[12:38] <smartboyhw> Anyways
[12:39] <smartboyhw> Riddell, eaten your lunch yet? (And is it still BST in Scot?)
[12:39] <apachelogger> SST
[12:41] <apachelogger> time must pass quicker; weekend in sight; zomg;
[12:47] <Riddell> smartboyhw: yes my lunch was good thanks and we're still on summer time for now
[12:48] <smartboyhw> Riddell, when does it end actually?
[12:48] <Riddell> end of october I think
[12:48] <smartboyhw> Riddell, -.-
[12:55] <apachelogger> kubotu: topic remember
[12:55] <kubotu> unknown command
[12:55] <apachelogger> pff
[12:55] <apachelogger> kubotu: help topic
[12:55] <kubotu> topic add(at)|prepend|del(ete)|replace|sep(arator)|learn|restore|clear|set|undo: manipulate the topic of the current channel; use topic <#channel> <command> for private addressing
[12:55] <apachelogger> kubotu: topic learn
[12:55] <kubotu> okay then :)
[12:56] <yofel> kubotu: topic restore
[12:56] <kubotu> yofel, you don't have 'topic' permissions here
[12:56] <yofel> :(
[12:56] <smartboyhw> HAHAHAHAHAHA
[12:56] <apachelogger> kubotu++
[12:56] <kubotu> thanks :)
[12:56] <smartboyhw> kubotu: karma +1
[12:56] <kubotu> +1 has neutral karma
[12:57] <smartboyhw> ^ That doesn't make sense at all
[12:57] <yofel> it does
[12:57] <yofel> karma counting was turned off though IIRC
[12:57] <apachelogger> kubotu: karma c
[12:57] <kubotu> karma for c: 46
[12:57] <yofel> kubotu: karma kubotu
[12:57] <kubotu> karma for kubotu: 1
[12:57] <apachelogger> no it wasn't
[12:57] <smartboyhw> kubotu: karma smartboyhw
[12:57] <kubotu> karma for smartboyhw: 1
[12:57] <yofel> oh ok
[12:57] <apachelogger> it was cleared
[12:57] <yofel> aaaaaah, right
[12:58] <yofel> ~karma
[12:58] <kubotu> karma for yofel: 5
[12:58] <yofel> :D
[12:59] <smartboyhw> ~karma
[12:59] <kubotu> karma for smartboyhw: 1
[12:59] <smartboyhw> ;(
[12:59] <smartboyhw> kubotu: karma smartboyhw 3
[12:59] <kubotu> incorrect usage, ask for help using 'kubotu: help karma'
[12:59] <smartboyhw> kubotu: help karma
[12:59] <kubotu> karma module: Listens to everyone's chat. <thing>++/<thing>-- => increase/decrease karma for <thing>, karma for <thing>? => show karma for <thing>, karmastats => show stats. Karma is a community rating system - only in-channel messages can affect karma and you cannot adjust your own.
[12:59] <apachelogger> smartboyhw--
[12:59] <smartboyhw> smartboyhw++
[12:59] <smartboyhw> OK, let's stop playing
[12:59] <yofel> kubotu: karma smartboyhw
[12:59] <kubotu> smartboyhw has neutral karma
[12:59] <yofel> ;P
[12:59] <smartboyhw> -.-
[12:59] <smartboyhw> Riddell, please start the grilling
[13:00] <smartboyhw> It's now 13:00 UTC.
[13:00] <Riddell> good afternoon friends
[13:00] <Riddell> kubuntu-dev needs to decide if smartboyhw should be let in
[13:00] <Riddell> who's here from kubuntu-dev?
[13:00] <yofel> o/
[13:00]  * smartboyhw pokes Quintasan 
[13:01] <apachelogger> not many ^^
[13:01] <Riddell> me and apachelogger and yofel make a quorum anyway
[13:01] <smartboyhw> (Well, technically 3 is enough)
[13:01] <Riddell> shadeslayer? ScottK?
[13:01] <Riddell> debfx?
[13:02] <Riddell> fabo?
[13:02] <smartboyhw> Riddell, ScottK can't come, I saw in yesterday's logs
[13:02] <Riddell> even Tonio?
[13:02] <Riddell> smartboyhw: what have you read or gained experience of since we last met?
[13:04] <smartboyhw> Riddell, the Debian Policy Manuals, New library packaging (with symbols and all sort of needed stuff), did 2 NEW reviews for Riddell, looked at the /usr/share/pkg-kde-tools/qt-kde-team/2/debian-qt-kde.mk file
[13:04] <Riddell> smartboyhw: did you get an answer to the question of what symbols files are for?
[13:05] <smartboyhw> Riddell, determining the shlibs dependencies
[13:05] <Riddell> yeah that's one purpose
[13:05] <yofel> shadeslayer: ping
[13:06] <Riddell> smartboyhw: what happens if you package a new version and symbols are missing?
[13:07] <smartboyhw> Riddell, ping upstream, check out the code yourself (just don't remove the symbols without any confirmation)
[13:07]  * smartboyhw prefers 1st option, BTW.
[13:08] <apachelogger> yofel: surely shadeslayer is at the beach sipping a capatain morgan with coke
[13:08] <Riddell> check out the code yourself should be a first option, the symbols might not be public anyway so it might not matter
[13:08] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, we need a tsunami.
[13:08] <smartboyhw> Riddell, yeah
[13:09] <Riddell> smartboyhw: if it is binary incompatible and upstream doesn't care what else can we do?
[13:10] <smartboyhw> Riddell, it is source compatible right
[13:10] <smartboyhw> ?
[13:11] <Riddell> smartboyhw: yeah
[13:11]  * smartboyhw doesn't think the answer should be bumping ABIs or something
[13:12] <smartboyhw> Hmm
[13:12] <Riddell> it could be
[13:12] <Riddell> we have a handy system to do so
[13:13] <smartboyhw> Riddell, handy system?
[13:13] <shrinivasan_> hi
[13:13] <shrinivasan_> hope there is a meeting now
[13:13] <shrinivasan_> am i right?
[13:13] <apachelogger> yes
[13:14] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: if you were to bump the soversion, how would you go about that in a kubuntu package? the answer should explain the 'handy system' ;)
[13:14]  * Riddell looks at kde-workspace for the answer
[13:14] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, package naming? 
[13:14] <smartboyhw> libfoo1abi1 and libfoo2
[13:14]  * smartboyhw does not think there is any "handy" system
[13:15] <apachelogger> the library is still libfoo1abi1.so.1.0.0
[13:15] <smartboyhw> And break/conflict the former binary incompatible ones?
[13:15] <smartboyhw> (Of course, regenerating symbols for that:P)
[13:16] <apachelogger> as Riddell hinted, have a look at kde-workspace
[13:17] <smartboyhw> The X-Debian-ABI stuff? That isn't handy-.-
[13:17] <apachelogger> Oo
[13:17] <apachelogger> I'll disregard that comment there for your sake
[13:18] <smartboyhw> The best handy thing is that it can be automated, this needs manual editing (LOL)
[13:18] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: what does that field do?
[13:18] <apachelogger> Oo
[13:18]  * apachelogger sighs
[13:18] <apachelogger> x-debian-abi is actual automatic
[13:18] <shrinivasan_> friends
[13:18] <apachelogger> it will change cmake macros such that abiN is appended to the name
[13:18] <apachelogger> thus actually changing the soversion of the library
[13:19] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, it bumps the SOVERSION and VERSION
[13:19] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, don't provide the answer, I am typing it-.-
[13:19] <apachelogger> which is why then you can make the package libfoo1 into libfoo1abi1 namewise
[13:20] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: why do we have kdelibs5 in kde4?
[13:20] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, the SOVERSION become 5?
[13:21]  * smartboyhw condemns the package importer for not working on kdelibs
[13:21] <apachelogger> is that an answer or a question?
[13:21] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, answer.
[13:21]  * smartboyhw likes answering questions in question-style when he is uncertain:P
[13:21] <apachelogger> what causes the need for a soversion bump?
[13:22] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, big library change at an API level
[13:22] <apachelogger> define big please
[13:23] <mikhas> "need to recompile everything that depends on lib and probably also touch code"
[13:23] <apachelogger> not your question :P
[13:24] <smartboyhw> Uh hum
[13:24] <apachelogger> also not a good enough question :P
[13:24] <apachelogger> eh answer
[13:24] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: please give it a shot ;)
[13:25] <shrinivasan_> aaron mailed tht
[13:25] <shrinivasan_> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/KubuntuDocs/Installation
[13:25] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, I would rather say that the underlying changes are fundamental (maybe a new dependency e.g. qt4 -> qt5)
[13:25] <shrinivasan_> this docs to be improved
[13:25] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: nope
[13:25] <shrinivasan_> shall we work on as a part of global ubuntu jam
[13:25] <yofel> shrinivasan_: in ~half an hour please, smartboyhw should concentrate on the questions ;)
[13:26] <shrinivasan_> yofel: ok
[13:27] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, because it isn't compatible with previous versions?
[13:27] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: though to be fair, a change from qt4 to qt5 actually asks for a soversion bump, it just doesn't really answer the question ;)
[13:27] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, LOL
[13:27] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: yes, what is 'it'?
[13:27] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, the library
[13:27] <apachelogger> well, yes, but how does the library beocme incompatible?
[13:28] <apachelogger> (tip: the things listed in the symbols file are highly related to the answer ;))
[13:29] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: any ideas?
[13:29] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, I was tempted to copy things from wikipedia, but that would surely hurt my application-.-
[13:29] <apachelogger> *shrug*
[13:30] <apachelogger> copy away :P
[13:30] <apachelogger> if it's wrong it will hit you worse though :P
[13:31] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, ouch
[13:31] <apachelogger> it = the binary interface(s)
[13:31] <apachelogger> i.e. the symbols
[13:31] <smartboyhw> An API is usually related to a software library: the API describes and prescribes the expected behavior while the library is an actual implementation of this set of rules. A single API can have multiple implementations (or none, being abstract) in the form of different libraries that share the same programming interface. (From wiki)
[13:31] <apachelogger> for example removing an existing function void foo (); in public API would constitute a binary incompatible change
[13:32] <smartboyhw> So, when the implementation of the code goes into another way
[13:32] <apachelogger> when reading upstream (kde) docs you will often encouter BIC or BC respectively binary incompatible change and binary compatible
[13:32] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: many things can cause that
[13:32] <Riddell> smartboyhw: I rejected tomahawk originally because it had .dll files in it, what's wrong with those?
[13:32] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: next question ... can the binary compatibility of a librayr change without being reflected in the symbols file (removal/change of a line)?
[13:33] <smartboyhw> Riddell, I thought .dll files are Windows files -.-
[13:34] <Riddell> smartboyhw: yeah they weren't used by us but that's not a problem in itself
[13:35] <smartboyhw> Riddell, there is no way to link such dll files?
[13:36] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, no, as far as I can understand. SONAME and SOVERSION must match with the package descriptions
[13:36] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: btw, I think Riddell rejected the *source package*, i.e. the ddls were in the tar
[13:36] <Riddell> right
[13:37] <Riddell> what's wrong with having random binary files in the tar?
[13:37] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: and for your answer: http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Binary_Compatibility_Issues_With_C%2B%2B#The_Do.27s_and_Don.27ts see don'ts regarding virtual functions ... you can break binary compatibility through new virtual functions for example ;)
[13:39] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, alas, I misread, I thought you are talking about if there is anyway in the control file-.-
[13:39] <smartboyhw> My fault
[13:39] <smartboyhw> Riddell, they get regenerated at compile time?
[13:40] <smartboyhw> (Can't link easily)
[13:40] <Riddell> smartboyhw: no they don't (which is kindae the issue)
[13:41] <smartboyhw> Riddell, mmmmmm
[13:42] <smartboyhw> So, since they aren't regenerated
[13:43] <smartboyhw> You can't install them into the usr/ dirs
[13:43] <smartboyhw> (Since they will not show up during dh_install)
[13:43] <smartboyhw> End up flowing somewhere which is forbidden
[13:43] <smartboyhw> (That's my way of thinking it)
[13:43] <Riddell> we can't ship them at all, it's a licence question
[13:44] <apachelogger> (google:dfsg)
[13:44] <smartboyhw> Riddell, ew
[13:44] <smartboyhw> I thought you are asking it technically-.-
[13:44] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: when installing a new (i.e. not yet installed) package the maintainer script preinst is called with the argument "install" what happens immediately after that if it returns in error?
[13:44] <apachelogger> and that is a technical question :P
[13:45] <apachelogger> (you could also tell me where I would look to find out what happens in that case ;))
[13:47] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, a dpkg configure error shows up, and the package is held and will not be configured. To find out, look at the preinst script in /var/lib/dpkg/info/<package>.preinst
[13:47] <smartboyhw> (I hate --configure errors BTW)
[13:47] <apachelogger> *technically*
[13:47] <apachelogger> what happens *right after* it returns
[13:48] <apachelogger> example: preinst install created a file  /etc/foo and then returned
[13:48] <apachelogger> what happens to /etc/foo?
[13:49] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, /etc/foo stays in there
[13:50] <apachelogger> wrong, also technically the package is not held in not configured
[13:50] <apachelogger> preinst install is at the very beginning so it will be rolled back
[13:50] <apachelogger> immediately following preinst install with error is postrm abort-install
[13:50] <apachelogger> handy option for lookup: https://wiki.debian.org/MaintainerScripts
[13:51] <apachelogger> smartboyhw: tell us everything you know about debian/compat please
[13:52] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, debian/compat? It is used to restrict the debhelper compat level
[13:52] <apachelogger> what does that do?
[13:53] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, that tells the debhelper which version of build scripts should it use. For example, multiarch support (I mean for autoreconf) can only be used in 9. If you used 8, it will use the v8 scripts
[13:53] <smartboyhw> and should not enable multiarch
[13:53] <apachelogger> does that have practical implications?
[13:53] <apachelogger> say I use compat 3
[13:54] <apachelogger> what could possibly go wrong?
[13:54] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, as far as I know, 1-4 isn't supported-.-
[13:54] <smartboyhw> 5 or above is
[13:54] <apachelogger> what could possibly go wrong?
[13:55] <apachelogger> seeing as there is a compat system I do believe all versions are supported btw :P
[13:55] <apachelogger> otherwise a rant may be in order ;)
[13:55] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, in uploading terms, rejects
[13:55] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, look at man debhelper
[13:55] <apachelogger> no
[13:55] <apachelogger> in build terms
[13:55] <smartboyhw> It's deprecated, main
[13:55] <smartboyhw> *man
[13:56] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, in build terms, you mean if you downgrade a 9 package to 3 or what?
[13:56] <apachelogger> for example
[13:56] <smartboyhw> the overrides in debian/rules might not work
[13:57] <apachelogger> good enough
[13:57] <apachelogger> yofel: any questions?
[13:58] <Riddell> I'm in a quandry, I really want you to be in kubuntu-dev because you've been doing loads of useful stuff, but you've not answered many questions well today
[13:58] <yofel> sorry no, I just got a bunch of paperwork shoved at me at work that needs to be done in ~2.5h
[13:59]  * smartboyhw thinks the world is so broad, you can't expect him to memorize everything 
[13:59] <smartboyhw> I got study stuff to memorize here-.-
[14:00] <apachelogger> that's not expected of anyone but one should be able to look it up, i.e. know where to look
[14:00] <apachelogger> but to know that one has to first had the need to look it up originally, so I believe it's just a matter of a experience
[14:00] <yofel> I think I would say that you're missing experience, though I think you've acquired enough to not do anything really stupid anymore
[14:02] <smartboyhw> Experience builds up. It is a matter of whether you think I can be trusted to upload packages without (no or much) stupidness.
[14:03] <smartboyhw> I'm not that stupid as I am 8 months ago
[14:03] <apachelogger> fair enough, if you think you are up to it I'll give you my bonus question :P
[14:03] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, OK sure
[14:03] <apachelogger> Imagine, if you will... upstream releases new versions of Phonon, Phonon-GStreamer and Phonon-VLC two weeks before our release. Upstream urges us to include it in the release regardless as a considerable amount of high impact bugs were fixed. Unfortunately an equal amount of features was also added. All other Kubuntu developers are on vacation^Wmeeting in Munich and unreachable because Germany has terrible connectivity. You are the only one 
[14:03] <apachelogger> who could either accept or reject the new Phonons. What do you do? Why do you do it? How do you defend your decision to apachelogger who is known to respond rather badly to any reasoning that conflicts with his opinion?
[14:04] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, I would import the patches of all bugfixes into the package and release it. Just don't include the new features
[14:04] <apachelogger> do you think that will work?
[14:04] <Tm_T> smartboyhw: you'd cherrypick correct commits and ensure all is well?
[14:04] <smartboyhw> Tm_T, of course
[14:04] <Tm_T> brave soul we have there
[14:04] <apachelogger> -1
[14:04] <apachelogger> sorry
[14:05] <apachelogger> that was just about the only wrong answer one could give to that scenario
[14:05] <apachelogger> you never ever start cherry picking commits off an upstream feature release without even so much as talk to upstream
[14:05] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, who says I won't talk to upstream, first of all?
[14:06] <apachelogger> you
[14:06] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, no
[14:06] <apachelogger> "<smartboyhw> apachelogger, I would import the patches of all bugfixes into the package and release it. Just don't include the new features"
[14:06] <apachelogger> and I am not going to discuss this
[14:07] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, fine. Your choice.
[14:07] <smartboyhw> Riddell, yofel: So I'm guessing a -1 from you too?
[14:08]  * Riddell still pondering
[14:08] <smartboyhw> apachelogger, you see, the idea came from a discussion happening on #ubuntu-devel
[14:09] <smartboyhw> So, I was confused by the person I was talking with, I think
[14:09] <smartboyhw> An API is usually related to a software library: the API describes and prescribes the expected behavior while the library is an actual implementation of this set of rules. A single API can have multiple implementations (or none, being abstract) in the form of different libraries that share the same programming interface.
[14:09] <smartboyhw> Oops
[14:09] <smartboyhw> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/09/07/%23ubuntu-devel.html
[14:09] <smartboyhw> That's where I got the confusion...
[14:11]  * apachelogger counts weeks to release
[14:11] <apachelogger> yeah, that is not really anything like the scenario I presented
[14:11] <apachelogger> kubotu: make magic happen
[14:11] <apachelogger> kubotu: topic restore
[14:12] <Riddell> I think I'd +1 smartboyhw on condition he gets any non-trivial changes reviewed before upload, where the definition of non-trivial is tight but can become loser over time
[14:12] <jmux> apachelogger: man -L C 7 debhelper => COMPATIBILITY LEVELS
[14:12] <smartboyhw> Riddell, you need one more dev now, -.-
[14:13] <smartboyhw> (Two more)
[14:13] <Riddell> yofel: what do you think?
[14:13] <yofel> -1 no, but a really hesitant +1. You're getting better at an incredible rate, but I haven't seen many packages from you where I could really just sign an upload. Getting me to review something should be really only for ack, not looking whether the pieces you did so far are correct or not.
[14:14] <Riddell> yofel: mm so is that -1 or +1 ?
[14:14] <yofel> smartboyhw: on that topic, how does essentially having root permisions on user systems sound to you?
[14:15] <yofel> describe it in a single word ;)
[14:15] <smartboyhw> Single word?...............
[14:15] <yofel> just say how you feel about it emotionally
[14:15] <apachelogger> jmux: ^^ cheers
[14:15] <smartboyhw> yofel, useful?
[14:16]  * smartboyhw does not understand the question
[14:16] <Tm_T> I sense the answer yofel was looking for was "noooooooooo!!11"
[14:16] <yofel> well, how do you feel about it? happy, evil, scared, confused, ...?
[14:16] <yofel> Tm_T: that would've been one answer :P
[14:16]  * smartboyhw thinks that is a terrible Android rooting (law) question
[14:17] <apachelogger> Tm_T: the answer is omnomnom :P
[14:17] <smartboyhw> yofel, I won't feel scared, I feel that I need to be careful while using it.
[14:17] <yofel> ok, then I'll settle with +1
[14:18] <Riddell> hmm what are the voting rules for this again?
[14:18] <yofel> afaik at least +3, so we can continue this on the ML
[14:18] <smartboyhw> yofel, is it?
[14:19] <smartboyhw> That's different from Kubuntu Members I thought
[14:19]  * yofel doesn't remember there being a -1 when he was present so isn't sure
[14:19] <yofel> I think +3 as a summary of all votes makes sense
[14:19] <smartboyhw> So, let's see who wants to +1 me-.-
[14:20] <smartboyhw> (If shadeslayer says -1, then don't let me in)
[14:20] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer is one of my main package sponsors, after Riddell and yofel 
[14:21] <Riddell> ok we'll continue on the mailing list
[14:21] <Riddell> thanks for taking a second grilling smartboyhw, I know it's stressful
[14:21] <smartboyhw> Riddell, it is VERY stressful... (It's like Computer politics-.-)
[14:22] <Riddell> I've failed my driving test twice in the last few weeks, all very stressful
[14:22] <smartboyhw> Riddell, uh oh
[14:22] <Riddell> needless to say you're a great asset to the kubuntu team so we're keen to have you in
[14:22] <smartboyhw> Riddell, let's see who gets to pass our tests first:P
[14:22] <yofel> didn't you have a license already? or had to take the test again?
[14:22]  * yofel got his license on the 2nd try - ignored a red light on the first one -.-
[14:23] <smartboyhw> yofel, Oo
[14:23] <yofel> it was a really stressful day... I'll leave it at that
[14:23]  * Tm_T got his first driving license when he was 16 and passed both consecutive tests too, not easily but still
[14:24] <Riddell> yofel: minibus driving, like a car but harder
[14:24] <smartboyhw> Maxim: Don't apply for Kubuntu Developers until 1. You are strictly confident you can answer nothing and 2. You have no emotions on that day.
[14:24] <smartboyhw> s/nothing/everything/
[14:24] <kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "Maxim: Don't apply for Kubuntu Developers until 1. You are strictly confident you can answer everything and 2. You have no emotions on that day."
[14:24] <yofel> ah
[14:24] <smartboyhw> Which = impossible.
[14:26] <yofel> smartboyhw: erm, it's not quite like that. *Usually* people apply for dev once they have enough experience so other people encourage them to do so and are ready to give +1 anyway - then the meeting is just to clear up some questions left unanswered
[14:26] <yofel> you were a bit fast to apply IMO
[14:26] <smartboyhw> yofel, not my case-.-
[14:26] <smartboyhw> yofel, damnit, tell me beforehand-.-
[14:27] <smartboyhw> Then I will apply next year, and focus on SoK and schoolwork and SAT...
[14:27] <smartboyhw> Shouldn't have got myself into this cauldron bubble
[14:27]  * yofel remembers saying something months ago - but I guess that was quite a while back
[14:28] <yofel> I think you're doing great considering the time you've been here
[14:29] <yofel> it's just that some things are just a matter of experiencing some thing first hand - and that takes time
[14:32] <smartboyhw> So, let's continue on ML
[14:32] <smartboyhw> (Still can't get CyrilleB to respond on descriptions of Cauchy, BTW)
[14:38] <lordievader> Good afternoon.
[14:46] <Riddell> hi lordievader, been working on some docs stuff?
[14:48] <lordievader> Riddell: Jup, you can see the result here: http://griffioen.no-ip.org/Kubuntu/KubuntuDocs.html
[14:48] <shadeslayer> I'm sorry, did I miss the meeting?
[14:49] <yofel> you did
[14:49] <Riddell> shadeslayer: yeah but we still need another vote
[14:49] <shadeslayer> will read the logs in a bit
[14:49] <Riddell> lordievader: that's from a change in the script?
[14:50]  * shadeslayer overslept on account of being tired
[14:50] <lordievader> Riddell: The most dramatic change is downloading the css, but I made some changes here and there. See the email on the kubuntu-dev mailing list.
[14:54]  * smartboyhw faints at the requirements of top US universities-.- Why do we need SAT + TOEFL!?
[14:55] <yofel> what's that?
[14:57] <genii> If memory serves, it's some proficiency test of English
[14:57] <smartboyhw> yofel, SAT is a proficiency test for English + Maths (where English is very difficult for us, while Maths should be a piece of Cake)
[14:57] <smartboyhw> So why do we need TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language) !?
[14:58] <smartboyhw> (TOEFL's specific requirement for international applicants, BTW)
[14:59] <yofel> ah
[15:01] <smartboyhw> Here's the weird thing: Harvard and MIT does not require TOEFL, but Cornell and Cal Tech require it-.-
[15:02] <Riddell> your written english at least is first rate, why do you think it'll be difficult?
[15:05] <smartboyhw> Riddell, uh hum, it's reading comprehension that is difficult. And seriously, I looked at those full-mark compositions for writing, and I'm amazed.
[15:05] <lordievader> Riddell: Made a launchpad branch: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~oliviervdtoorn/+junk/kubuntu-docs-downloader
[15:05] <smartboyhw> lordievader, nice!~
[15:06] <lordievader> smartboyhw: Reading comprehension, I get the feeling you understand us perfectly. So that shouldn't be too hard. ;)
[15:06] <smartboyhw> UCLA's process is even more complicated-.-
[15:06] <smartboyhw> lordievader, it's not just that
[15:06] <smartboyhw> The words are very difficult for me
[15:06] <smartboyhw> Speaking of it, let me do the SAT question of the day
[15:15] <shadeslayer> Riddell: yofel I'm +1 with the additional condition that smartboyhw gets his uploads reviewed for a couple of weeks, he knows a fair amount to not make silly mistakes
[15:16] <smartboyhw> \o/
[15:17] <shadeslayer> smartboyhw: you need to learn more IMHO, but then that'll come with working on packages
[15:17] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer, I know
[15:17] <smartboyhw> Experience rolls with time
[15:17] <shadeslayer> right
[15:17]  * smartboyhw takes his new-learnt physics to calculate acceleration:P
[15:18] <smartboyhw> (Of the ball)
[15:18] <smartboyhw> Now it's -3 m-s
[15:18] <shadeslayer> yofel: Riddell and btw I think one of the source from 4.11.1 got rejected
[15:18] <shadeslayer> and now I can't remember which one it was
[15:18] <smartboyhw> Oops, -3 m -s(2)
[15:19] <shadeslayer> Riddell: mplayerthumbs_4.11.1-0ubuntu1_source.changes rejected	
[15:19] <shadeslayer> Riddell: could you please upload that?
[15:19] <shadeslayer> I'll add it to the supported seeds
[15:20] <shadeslayer> ah yes
[15:20] <shadeslayer> smartboyhw: I have a question, though it won't really affect my decision
[15:20] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer, please do
[15:20] <shadeslayer> smartboyhw: what's the supported seed :)
[15:20] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer, oh, that
[15:20] <smartboyhw> The supported system provides functionality not included by the base or desktop systems but which meets the following criteria:
[15:20] <smartboyhw> it is very widely used, people are committed to it.
[15:20] <smartboyhw> it is not architecturally insecure, it is thus easy for us to provide security fixes and updates.
[15:21] <smartboyhw> (LOL, copied from wiki:P)
[15:21] <shadeslayer> sure, but what does it mean from a package upload pov?
[15:22] <shadeslayer> which is of more practical use
[15:22] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer, you can upload it using the Kubuntu Developers ACL (in Kubuntu sense)
[15:22] <smartboyhw> If not, MOTU is needed to sponsor
[15:23] <shadeslayer> k
[15:23] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer, BTW why is mplayerthumbs rejected in the 1st place?
[15:24] <shadeslayer> smartboyhw: it's not in the seed
[15:24] <shadeslayer> or in the kubuntu packageset
[15:24] <shadeslayer> hence I don't have upload permissions for it
[15:24] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer, oh, that's why
[15:25] <shadeslayer> added to supported now
[15:25] <shadeslayer> okay off to apartment hunt now
[15:25] <shadeslayer> cya
[15:25] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer, cya
[15:49] <Riddell> bug 1220282 just as faffy as I had feared but job done :)
[15:50] <smartboyhw> Riddell, \o/
[15:57] <Riddell> “Kubuntu Developers” team "Howard Chan (smartboyhw) has been added as a member of this team."
[15:57] <smartboyhw> Riddell, thank you.
[15:57] <Riddell> smartboyhw: yay, welcome in :)
[15:57] <smartboyhw> Riddell, :)
[15:57] <Riddell> smartboyhw: but remember to get any non-trivial changes reviewed first
[15:58] <smartboyhw> Riddell, of course.
[15:58]  * smartboyhw doesn't want to be the one to be blamed
[16:00] <shadeslayer> Riddell: http://netrunner-mag.com/?p=3184
[16:01] <soee> smartboyhw, gratz :)
[16:01] <smartboyhw> soee, thx:)
[16:01] <shadeslayer> smartboyhw: congrats indeed
[16:01] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer, thanks:)
[16:02] <Riddell> "If you have friends and family you might want to expose to Linux, then Kubuntu will probably be the best overall choice."  sweet :)
[16:03] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer, nice post there
[16:04] <smartboyhw> Did you find a nice, cozy home?
[16:04] <smartboyhw> :P
[16:04] <shadeslayer> smartboyhw: trying to find one
[16:05] <shadeslayer> most of the places I've called up have said the room isn't available anymore
[16:05] <shadeslayer> but the last guy I called said it is still available
[16:05] <shadeslayer> will probably go and check it out tomorrow
[16:05] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer, oh
[16:05] <Riddell> shadeslayer: found any for me to use for a week in november?
[16:06] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer, BTW, your nick: Should it be read "shade|slayer" or "shades|layer"?
[16:06] <shadeslayer> Riddell: airbnb?
[16:06] <shadeslayer> smartboyhw: the former
[16:06] <shadeslayer> Riddell: I'm staying at a really nice place right now
[16:06] <shadeslayer> 15 EUR per night
[16:06] <shadeslayer> Riddell: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1435642
[16:07] <smartboyhw> Riddell, shadeslayer: dholbach is real quick: https://plus.google.com/107265043789873157543/posts/DRnrd5cQ8si
[16:08] <shadeslayer> yeah he is
[16:08] <EvilRoey> Hello all!  I want to hack on Konsole in the KDE 4.11 branch; what are the names of the KDE devel packages I need to install?
[16:09] <Riddell> EvilRoey: sudo apt-get build-dep konsole
[16:10] <EvilRoey> ok that's what I did
[16:10] <shadeslayer> Riddell: apartment is like 15 minutes walking from the office, but I wouldn't recommend it if you're a light sleeper
[16:10] <EvilRoey> shadeslayer suggested that to me
[16:10] <shadeslayer> Riddell: walls are a bit think, and you can hear the metro going underneath
[16:10] <shadeslayer> *thin even
[16:19] <Odur> Riddell: Yeah, I converted my wife from Windows user to Linux promotor just by installing Kubuntu :)
[16:20] <EvilRoey> :D
[16:20] <Riddell> excellent :)
[16:20] <EvilRoey> Riddell, shadeslayer, thanks! I've compiled Konsole now.
[16:21] <Riddell> EvilRoey: gonnae fix the bug where it copies all the spaces at the end of a line :)
[16:22] <EvilRoey> oh?
[16:22] <EvilRoey> I was going to make it auot-blur
[16:22] <EvilRoey> in the kpart, so that it would work both for konsole as well as yakuake
[16:22] <EvilRoey> *auto-blur
[16:22] <EvilRoey> oooh, motion blur during the Sliding Windows also sounds pretty cool
[16:22] <EvilRoey> come to think of it..
[16:49] <yofel> hm, why's python-kde4 held back here o.O
[16:52] <Riddell> yofel: the new one is still stuck on arm
[16:52] <Riddell> so it's in -proposed
[16:52] <Riddell> not sure why the current one would be held back but it's broken
[16:52] <yofel> nevermind
[16:53] <yofel> it's an issue with my pin setup so apt was confused (it was trying to install pykde from ninjas/raring on saucy)
[17:45] <shrinivasan_> hello all
[17:45] <shrinivasan_> how can i help with the documentation?
[17:45] <shrinivasan_> is there any thing undocumented?
[17:45] <shrinivasan_> so that i can write on that/
[17:49] <shrinivasan_> Riddell: ?
[17:58] <yofel> lordievader, valorie: you were working on the docs too right? could you point shrinivasan_ to something maybe?
[17:59] <shrinivasan_> thanks yofel
[17:59] <yofel> thank you for wanting to help with the docs :)
[18:04] <lordievader> shrinivasan_: Great, have you seen the trello board?
[18:06] <shrinivasan_> lordievader: checking it now
[18:08] <lordievader> shrinivasan_: You got a Launchpad/Ubuntu account?
[18:11] <shrinivasan_> lordievader: yes
[18:11] <shrinivasan_> i have
[18:11] <shrinivasan_> trello seems good
[18:12] <lordievader> Great, then you should be set. I'd say look through the pages and see if you can improve. Aron (ahoneybun) does the coordination for the most part.
[18:15] <shrinivasan_> fine
[18:15] <shrinivasan_> reading the trello cards
[18:16] <lordievader> Haven't seen ahoneybun in a while.
[18:16] <lordievader> :(
[18:21] <ronnoc> HI all
[18:22] <ronnoc> Anyone having issues with jockey-kde in Suacy?
[18:22] <ronnoc> *Saucy
[18:22] <shadeslayer> yeah, doesn't seem to work
[18:23] <lordievader> ronnoc: Python-apt is updated, functions that the jockey depends on are removed from the api.
[18:26] <ronnoc> shadeslayer: lordievader: Thanks for the update. I assume a fix will be forthcoming shortly. 
[19:18] <lordievader> ronnoc: I'm not so sure of a fix, I heard it was unmaintained.
[19:24] <ronnoc> lordievader: Is it a KDE-only issue, or does it affect Ubuntu as well?
[19:28] <lordievader> ronnoc: All of Ubuntu, I fixed "jockey-text -l" couple of days ago. But the rest of "jockey-text" seems to be broken too. And on top of that, jockey-kde seems to have a heap of its own problems :(
[19:32] <ronnoc> That's a sad situation to be sure. Hope i gets sorted out somehow or there will be a lot of confused users when 13.10 hits :/
[19:32] <ronnoc> brb need to reboot
[21:14] <Noskcaj> Where can i find the kde-tools symbols how-to page? It was the one way i was able to get symbols working
[21:16] <shadeslayer> Noskcaj: just google for "Debian kde working with symbols"
[21:19] <Noskcaj> thanks, i've found it
[21:20] <Noskcaj> shadeslayer, The guide works with all packages doesn't? not just kde
[21:33] <yofel> Noskcaj: anything c++
[21:33] <Noskcaj> yofel, thanks
[22:54] <valorie> hmmm, shrinivasan is gone already
[22:55] <valorie> congratulations to Howard!
[22:55] <valorie> oh, he's gone too
[22:55] <valorie> shees
[22:55] <valorie> h
[23:07] <soee> ;]