[00:16] <ali1234> hmmm!!!!!!
[00:16] <ali1234> init: job logrotate failed to stop
[00:16] <ali1234> that is the only one
[00:17] <ali1234> it's all starting to fit together
[00:17] <ali1234> so... let's see what happens if i wait a minute before logging out
[00:19] <ali1234> yeah... the delay is only 5 seconds if that logrotate is not running
[00:50] <ali1234> aaaaaaand... fixed
[00:58] <ali1234> urgh... this code doesn't even actually work
[01:19] <bluesabre> so... not fixed?
[01:26] <ali1234> well the delay is fixed
[01:26] <ali1234> no idea what side effects it would have though
[01:30] <ali1234> the quiesce code is really silly... it prints a list of "slow" jobs... but it doesn't do it after most of the jobs have stopped
[01:32] <ali1234> it has a routine that tries to figure out how long to wait, but it returns 5 seconds by default even if there are no jobs to wait for - that's half the problem
[01:36] <bluesabre> its pretty awesome that you've been able to crack down on this so much
[01:38] <Unit193> Which?  The lag or the indicators? :P
[01:39] <bluesabre> well, pretty much everything he's been working on :D
[02:05] <ali1234> :O
[02:06] <ali1234> ok the reason it always waits at least 5 seconds?
[02:06] <ali1234> it doesn't even send the shutdown request until the end of the wait period
[02:07] <ali1234> that's why there's a different result depending if you log out or shut down
[02:51] <ali1234> i think the logout bug is invalid, sorry
[02:52] <ali1234> the 5 second delay exists to catch any jobs that start after upstart told all jobs to stop
[02:52] <ali1234> it only happens on logout because in all other situations everything is going to get killed anyway
[02:53] <drc> so it's a feature not a bug...it does exactly what it's supposed to, just not what some people want?
[02:53] <ali1234> pretty much yes. that's what it looks like anyway
[02:54] <ali1234> i suspect ochosi found it particularly annoying cos he is logging in/out in under a minute repeatedly to test things
[02:54] <ali1234> in that case, the logrotate job will cause an extra 5 second delay - but only if you log out less than 1 minute after you logged in
[02:55] <ali1234> which, let's face it, is not usual user behaviour
[02:56]  * drc tries to remember the last time ochosi was described as normal....
[02:57] <ali1234> perhaps the logrotate script can be fixed to that the sleep it does can be interrupted
[02:57] <drc> and with that thought, off to bed
[03:01] <skellat> ali1234: How much of a regression do you think will be caused with our proposed simple fix?  Shall I add a comment to the bug that this may be something we end up addressing in Release Notes as a "Known Issue"?  Beta 2 Freeze is tomorrow FWIW.
[03:01] <ali1234> what fix is that?
[03:02] <skellat> LP Bug 1227212 where somebody was talking about commenting a line out
[03:02] <skellat> Though my memory may be faulty
[03:03] <ali1234> ah that... well, that means xubuntu does not use upstart to manage the session at all
[03:03] <ali1234> the thing is though, the 5 second delay is obviously there for a reason
[03:03] <skellat> Probably to let something gracefully quit
[03:03] <ali1234> no
[03:04] <ali1234> it's to prevent new processes starting after everything is told to quit
[03:04] <ali1234> at least that's what it looks like
[03:04] <skellat> Okay
[03:04] <ali1234> but the bottom line is either they delay is needed, in which case it's better to have it, or it's not needed and it should just be removed from upstart
[03:04] <skellat> That makes sense 
[03:05] <skellat> Have we had input from Steve Langasek yet?
[03:05] <ali1234> no
[03:05] <skellat> I had a root canal & major filling done today so it has been a Weird Wednesday for me
[03:06] <skellat> What time zone are you in?
[03:06] <skellat> As I know Steve Langasek is on the Pacific seaboard of the US so he may or may not still be up
[03:06] <ali1234> er... BST?
[03:07] <ali1234> it's 4am here
[03:07] <skellat> Ah
[03:07] <skellat> No worries
[03:07] <ali1234> anyway, the exact cause is pinpointed in my last comment
[03:07] <skellat> I'm stuck in the middle in Ohio
[03:07] <ali1234> any upstart dev should be able to confirm that the delay is really there for the reason i speculated
[03:08] <skellat> Okay
[03:09] <skellat> Well, we'll wait & see what he has to say then.
[03:10] <skellat> If we don't hear anything we may have to roll such into a Release Notes "Known Issue" for Beta 2.
[03:10] <ali1234> it's not even an issue
[03:10] <ali1234> it's only 5 seconds
[03:10] <ali1234> i think it's expected behaviour really
[03:11] <skellat> :-)
[03:12] <skellat> We'll let it marinate then and see what comes of it
[03:13] <ali1234> anyway, not using upstart means using something totally different with a whole other set of problems, so i wouldn't recommend that at all
[03:14] <skellat> Yeah, I've been watching the conflagration on the Debian side over systemd.  It hasn't been pretty
[03:18] <ali1234> bug 1190526
[03:19] <ali1234> hmm so the whole quiesce stuff was added in a big lump by james hunt in february and nobody else has ever touched it, so you might have to ask him what it's supposed to do
[03:23]  * Unit193 hopes they don't go systemd.
[03:26] <skellat> Unit193: That would be calling down death from above on our position
[03:26] <skellat> ali1234: I suppose so
[03:27] <skellat> EXCELLENT.  Steve Langasek just chimed in on the bug.
[03:27] <skellat> Importance shifted to High, Status is Triaged, and now assigned to James Hunt for resolution
[03:28] <ali1234> fair enough
[03:28] <skellat> Steve Langasek called it as the expected shutdown procedure is *not* happening in what you've described
[03:29] <ali1234> it still looks like it is by design, but the design is wrong :P
[03:29] <ali1234> but who knows
[03:30] <skellat> The biggest example of the design itself being wrong in the US in cards was the Ford Pinto.  Smack the gas tank of that thing in a collision & the car exploded into flames.  Otherwise it was a drivable car.
[03:30] <skellat> s/cards/cars/
[03:35]  * skellat wanders off
[05:48] <astraljava> Is there anything about the Xubuntu brand that I can see from a terminal?
[05:48]  * astraljava has forgotten loads of that sorta stuff.
[05:49] <astraljava> I know about lsb_release, but that only mentions the distribution, not about the flavor.
[05:59] <knome> astraljava, don't think so
[06:03] <knome> astraljava, is xubuntu-* installed?
[06:10] <Unit193> echo $DESKTOP_SESSION ? :P
[06:11] <Unit193> GDMSESSION too.
[06:11] <Unit193> XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP for XFCE
[06:21] <Unit193> knome: Oh, we ignoring OEM until T?
[06:25] <knome> Unit193, yeah, it doesn't work
[06:32] <ochosi> ali1234: congrats, you managed to wake the dogs with your debugging, looks like this is actually going to get fixed!
[06:33]  * knome knocks the wood
[06:33] <Unit193> or at least looked at.
[06:33] <knome> ow, that hit my head!
[06:33] <knome> ;)
[06:34] <knome> -documentation lacks upload, then it's ready
[06:34] <knome> -marketing can lag, no release-based
[06:34] <knome> -qa is ready
[06:34] <knome> -community can lag, no release-based
[06:34] <knome> -artwork needs wallpaper and upload, then ready
[06:34] <knome> -development needs uploads, then ready
[06:34] <knome> ^ status
[06:36] <knome> looks like we have made it again
[06:36] <knome> and only a handful of postponed items
[06:36] <Unit193> Sadly, several things getting postponed, yep.
[06:36] <astraljava> knome: I should think so, I installed from a daily a few days ago.
[06:36] <forestpiskie> ochosi: thanks :)
[06:37] <astraljava> knome: And what are you doing up at this hour anyway?!
[06:37] <knome> astraljava, ircing.
[06:37] <knome> and fixing kitchen table/chairs
[06:37] <knome> and stuff..
[06:37] <knome> ;)
[06:37] <knome> hangin' in the office
[06:37] <Unit193> astraljava: See above?  Also, head your /etc/apt/sources.list
[06:37] <knome> Unit193, the good things is that we have a lot of nice things almost prepared for 14.04
[06:38] <Unit193> Yep.
[06:38] <knome> Unit193, gtk3 indicators back, menulibre, mugshot, ...
[06:38] <Unit193> 4.12? ;)
[06:38] <Unit193> knome: Think he was happy with backports, no?
[06:38] <knome> maybe, but not likely
[06:40] <astraljava> Unit193: Okay, one moment, thanks!
[06:43] <astraljava> Unit193: Ok, thanks again!
[06:43] <elfy> hi astraljava 
[06:43] <Unit193> Of course, and howdy!
[06:57] <elfy> knome: qa would have bee ready ages ago if I'd stopped adding things to it :p
[06:57] <elfy> s/bee/been
[06:57] <knome> ;)
[06:57] <astraljava> Hi elfy!
[06:58] <elfy> shan't make that mistake again - will just use scraps of paper on my desk ... 
[06:58] <elfy> astraljava: how's things going - good I trsut
[06:58] <knome> elfy, haha, np
[06:58] <elfy> :)
[07:53] <Noskcaj> The new tumbler version is now in saucy. 
[07:55] <astraljava> elfy: Pretty well, thanks. Busy, but good. And how's life with you?
[08:09] <ochosi> Noskcaj: cool!
[09:15] <knome> yay, our new documentation is in saucy. jjfrv8, thanks! :)
[09:25] <Noskcaj> knome, Is there any chance i could get added to https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-team so time?
[09:25] <knome> "so" ?
[09:25]  * Noskcaj has ran out of things to do while hist pbuilder creates
[09:26] <knome> you're getting there. :)
[09:26] <Noskcaj> *some
[09:27] <knome> yep, don't worry about that
[09:27] <Noskcaj> yay, eventual success ;)
[09:28] <knome> looks like you're still finding your place in the community in general, which is fine
[09:28] <knome> btw, thanks with all the work on packages
[09:34] <knome> it looks to me that sponsored uploads are going to be handled if they are prepared well
[10:22] <lderan> woo for eventual success
[10:25] <knome> bluesabre, ping me when you get back.
[11:13] <brainwash> bluesabre: what a bummer, I should have checked the control file of xubuntu-default-settings more precisely, it states that "lightdm-gtk-greeter (>= 1.0.0-0ubuntu2)" is required, so adding "Provides: lightdm-gtk-greeter,.." to lightdm-gtk-greeter-gtk2 won't change anything, because of the version requirement
[11:13] <brainwash> a limitation of "Provides"
[11:49] <bluesabre> brainwash, ah, bummer
[11:49] <knome> oi bluesabre 
[11:50] <knome> bluesabre, apparently, the uploads by daniel have been related to *having a patch in the bug*, so maybe you'd like to do that for the shimmer-themes package as well
[11:52] <bluesabre> ah
[11:52] <bluesabre> ochosi: need some bugs :D
[12:00] <brainwash> bluesabre: do you think, that adding the gtk2 greeter package to the dependency list of xubuntu-default-settings might be an option to consider? so if one the gtk greeter packages is installed on the system, xubuntu-default-settings won't complain
[12:01] <brainwash> but maybe I'm the only one who still want to use the gtk2 greeter :)
[12:03] <bluesabre> brainwash: well, the gtk2 greeter is only available in that PPA, so I might be able to ship a daily xubuntu-default-settings in that PPA as well with a patch that removes the version check
[12:03] <knome> bbl
[12:03] <bluesabre> seeya knome
[12:04] <knome> bluesabre, btw, remember you scheduled a meeting @ 15UTC today ;)=
[12:04] <bluesabre> knome, I gave you an action item to reschedule or cancel said meeting ;)
[12:04] <brainwash> bluesabre: yes, good idea :)
[12:05] <knome> bluesabre, no, that's fine... if people show up, feel free to have the meeting
[12:05] <bluesabre> k, if I'm around :)
[12:05] <knome> btw, it looks like the beta freeze is postponed until monday, but other freezes (doc/ui) stand today
[12:05] <bluesabre> lame
[12:05] <knome> heh
[12:06] <knome> well, that does make sense (documentation team needs to know the UI is stable, has nothing to do with beta)
[12:06] <knome> (the non-existent documentation team, i know i know!)
[12:06] <knome> (for ubuntu, that is)
[12:06] <knome> ok, i'm off bugging you
[12:06] <knome> see you later!
[12:06] <knome> ->
[12:06] <bluesabre> yeah, just gotta hope mr_pouit or micahg appears
[12:07] <elfy> and the non-existent freezing things so that docs are out of date ... for ubuntu
[12:07] <elfy> cya knome 
[12:07] <bluesabre> hard to keep docs up-to-date when we are in between having indicators and not
[12:08] <elfy> indeed
[12:08] <elfy> but I wasn't talking about us :)
[12:08] <bluesabre> true
[12:08] <bluesabre> I expect at least one more api change following beta2 freeze
[12:09] <elfy> there's at least 4 weeks left for sabdfl to decide something just has to be released and start the argument up again :)
[12:10] <bluesabre> nah, I think he's content with what's being delivered this release
[12:10] <elfy> :)
[12:10] <bluesabre> the big changes come with 14.04 and unity8
[12:10] <elfy> I sort of take notice of that stuff - but tend to forget it all really quickly
[12:10] <ochosi> bluesabre: you could get in touch with someone to upload the themes-package...
[12:11] <bluesabre> ochosi: not quite sure who to ping, and I'm away from my laptop so I can't do anything if there's any additional work to do
[12:20] <elfy> final beta is next week isn't it? 
[12:21] <bluesabre> ?
[12:21] <bluesabre> yeah, beta2 is next week
[12:21] <bluesabre> freeze is monday
[12:21] <bluesabre> beta2 release is thursday (I believe)
[12:21] <bluesabre> UIF is today
[12:21] <elfy> just making sure before I make one last call for testing this cycle
[13:13] <brainwash> ochosi: not sure anymore, but you mentioned that the restart menu entry gone missing after first logout is a known issue. does a bug report already exist?
[13:14] <brainwash> ^ lightdm gtk greeter
[13:14] <ochosi> brainwash: https://bugs.launchpad.net/lightdm/+bug/1226509
[13:15] <brainwash> ochosi: thanks
[13:16] <ochosi> np
[13:17] <brainwash> but it works before login
[13:17] <brainwash> directly after boot up
[13:17] <ochosi> yeah, it's most likely not a greeter bug
[13:17] <ochosi> cause the greeter adds those menuitems conditionally
[13:18] <ochosi> depending on whether lightdm says that the system can_restart, can_hibernate, can_shutdown etc
[13:18] <ochosi> and the restart-item always used to be there, not sure what's happening with it now
[13:18] <ochosi> it needs some debugging, but that's no fun without a working --test-mode
[13:19] <brainwash> looks like a job for ali1234 and his awesome debugging skills :)
[13:20] <brainwash> way too much stuff involving lightdm did break
[13:22] <bluesabre> between lightdm updates and logind, we've been busy
[13:24] <bluesabre> ochosi, --test-mode didn't work with the power options anyway :)
[13:25] <ochosi> yeah, i think mir just really put the focus away from the desktop stuff
[13:28] <bluesabre> once its done, it will be better.  The converged unity8 will mean that those involved will be working on just one project instead of maintaining two
[13:28] <bluesabre> its just going to take a bit to get there
[13:29] <bluesabre> and I think Mir is showing good promise
[13:29] <bluesabre> I do wonder, what happens to X forwarding when Mir/Wayland are complete?
[13:30] <ochosi> iirc wayland has a solution for that
[13:30] <ochosi> that came up at one of the talks where i heard christan skagsgard
[13:31] <ochosi> eh, or what was his last name again? :)
[13:31] <ochosi> kristian hogsberg i guess
[13:31] <ochosi> høgsberg i to be exact
[13:33] <bluesabre> I know wayland has an html5 backend, dunno about the others
[13:35] <GridCube> gkt3 has an html5 backend called broadway, i dont know how that contributes to the discussion but its something i happen to know
[13:35] <GridCube> P:
[13:35] <ochosi> harhar
[13:35] <ochosi> nicely played
[14:11] <bluesabre> yay! https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/shimmer-themes/+bug/1227402
[15:05] <elfy> bluesabre: got the update themes - panel now looks better - but the sound indicator icon appears to have done a runner 
[15:06] <bluesabre> elfy, thats odd, didn't push an update to the icon theme
[15:06] <bluesabre> ochosi ^
[15:07] <elfy> bbl
[15:07] <ochosi> elfy: could you say that in more words?
[15:07] <ochosi> ok, obviously not :}
[15:07] <bluesabre> ochosi: icon is missing
[15:07] <bluesabre> I think is the extended translation
[15:07] <bluesabre> :D
[15:08] <ochosi> yeah, it seems to be a race condition
[15:08] <ochosi> it sometimes is there, sometimes isn't
[15:08] <ochosi> after a "xfce4-panel --restart" it always is there
[15:08] <ochosi> elfy: ^
[15:10] <elfy> ochosi: yep - that got it back - hadn't quite managed to wander off yet :)
[15:10] <ochosi> good to get that confirmed
[15:10] <ochosi> it's the only issue i get with the gtk3 indicators at the moment
[15:11] <elfy> not as good as it to see the only one of those indicators I actually ever use working again :p
[15:15] <elfy> ochosi bluesabre - one last thing before I do go for a while - with greybird the panel is black - same with all the supplied themes - except orion and raleigh - is that expected behaviour at the moment? 
[15:16] <ochosi> yeah, those are bright themes
[15:16] <ochosi> which is why i added a new meta-icon-theme for them (elementary-xfce-darkest)
[15:16] <elfy> is not greybird bright? 
[15:16] <ochosi> it's mixed
[15:16] <ochosi> dark panel, the rest bright
[15:17] <ochosi> e.g. ubuntu's radiance is also a bright theme
[15:17] <ochosi> bright panel, bright rest
[15:17] <elfy> ok - thanks - I understand 
[15:18] <ochosi> np
[15:24] <ali1234> i only get the missing sound icon on the first start up after a reboot so it might be some race condition in the indicator startup
[15:26] <ochosi> same here
[15:26] <brainwash> ochosi: https://bugs.launchpad.net/lightdm-gtk-greeter/+bug/1227735
[15:27] <ochosi> brainwash: yeah, got notified via email already ;)
[15:27] <ochosi> but thanks for the reminder
[15:27] <brainwash> :P
[15:28] <ali1234> when i log out the greeter says "unlock" - anyone else seen that?
[15:29] <ochosi> ali1234: that should've been fixed with a very recent greeter update
[15:33] <ochosi> bbl
[15:39] <ali1234> ochosi: yep, fixed now
[15:39] <slickymaster> elfy ochosi: regarding https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/shimmer-themes/+bug/1227402. I've updated shimmer-themes and restarted xfce4-panel and even though the audio icon is the panel, as I can hoover it, it's not visible
[15:39] <slickymaster> is in
[15:40] <elfy> slickymaster: try xfce4-panel --restart
[15:41] <elfy> had the same thing 
[15:41] <slickymaster> elfy: already done that to no avail
[15:41] <elfy> no idea then atm - not really here - sorry
[15:41] <slickymaster> it is there, but it's completely black. it's just a black square
[15:42] <slickymaster> elfy: np
[17:12] <Unit193> brainwash: No, wayland has a RDP backend.
[18:24] <Unit193> bluesabre: Dangit, I meant you...  Wayland has a RDP backend.
[18:28] <bluesabre> ah
[21:05] <Unit193> knome: You ever get a chance to take a peak at the -core meta mockup?
[21:06] <ochosi> Unit193: where would that be at?
[21:06] <Unit193> ochosi: Some pastebin a while back. :P
[21:06] <knome> Unit193, i did, but i've lost the url
[21:07] <Unit193> Ah, alright.
[21:08] <knome> as i said then, it looked like a sensible base
[21:09] <ochosi> it shouldn
[21:09] <ochosi> 't be too hard to create a sensible base at least
[21:09] <Unit193> Bleh, means I have to hold onto the file a little longer. :P
[21:09] <ochosi> well, we should really have a team meeting about that
[21:10] <Unit193> ochosi: Thinking at final beta might not be a good time, maybe brainstorm time?
[21:10] <ochosi> yeah
[21:10] <Unit193> Hrm, new XPL then, though, right?
[21:10] <ochosi> but the -core meta thingy, would you want that as a package?
[21:11] <ochosi> who knows
[21:11] <Unit193> Just tossed in with the seed, and boom it is.
[21:12] <knome> Unit193, i'm still serving the 14.04 cycle ;)
[21:12] <knome> at least...
[21:12] <Unit193> Ah, good.
[21:13] <ochosi> +1
[21:23] <ochosi> slickymaster: are you using the gtk3 indicators?
[21:24] <slickymaster> ochosi, yes
[21:25] <slickymaster> ochosi, I guessing you're asking because of the audio icon, right?
[21:25] <ochosi> yeah, just wanted to check
[21:26] <ochosi> it's kinda known, the indicator-sound icon
[21:27]  * ochosi still hopes ali1234 will be able to debug it...
[21:28] <slickymaster> ochosi, thing is, it's there. when i hoover my mouse pointer over it, I get the pop-up label indicating it and if I click it opens
[21:28] <ochosi> yeah
[21:29] <ochosi> it's just the icon that is not displayed
[21:30] <slickymaster> ochosi, let's hope it's solved before the end of this cycle
[21:32] <ochosi> well it's far from sure that it's going to get into 13.10
[21:34] <slickymaster> ochosi, yeah, so it seems, but never loosing our hope ;)
[21:34] <ochosi> indeed
[21:34] <Unit193> If not, then maybe backports.
[21:35] <ochosi> nice to see more people are testing this
[23:59] <ali1234> i can't reproduce it reliably