[00:00] <Nothing_Much> Erm..
[00:01] <Nothing_Much> Well I guess I'm gonna need to figure that on my own.
[03:16] <AmEv> Any Tegra 2 porter assistans available?
[03:17] <AmEv> *assistants
[03:28] <Nothing_Much> AmEv, I don't think you'll find anybody here that talks :(
[03:28] <Nothing_Much> I'm still wondering how Ubuntu gets installed on an Arm device
[03:29] <AmEv> Tablet?
[03:29] <AmEv> I'm still trying to get it on my Toshiba Thrive.
[03:30] <AmEv> Found lots of guides, but every time I try applying it to the Thrive, all I get is..... About that much.
[03:31] <Nothing_Much> AmEv, It's not a tablet I'm looking to put Ubuntu on, it's a tiny PC like the Raspberry Pi.
[03:31] <Nothing_Much> But powerful
[03:31] <AmEv> Oh.....
[03:31] <AmEv> What model is it?
[03:31] <Nothing_Much> Odroid is what it's called
[03:31] <AmEv> OK.
[03:32] <AmEv> Is that a "zero" or an "O"?
[03:32] <Nothing_Much> an O as in oreo
[03:32] <AmEv> Never mind; found ti.
[03:32] <AmEv> *i
[03:33] <AmEv> *it
[03:33] <AmEv> http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/main.php right?
[03:35] <Nothing_Much_> What'd I miss?
[03:36] <AmEv> Still here. Think I found something.
[03:37] <AmEv> Which model do you specifically have, Nothing_Much_?
[03:38] <Nothing_Much> AmEv, I'm looking to get the U2 one
[03:38] <Nothing_Much> It's half the size of a credit card :O
[03:40] <AmEv> Heh. No kidding.
[03:41] <Nothing_Much> I really really need something like that, but I'd also like to know if there's a repository for Ubuntu's Arm build
[03:41] <Nothing_Much> I'd like to do some video editing, if possible.
[03:41] <Nothing_Much> With Kdenlive preferably.
[03:42] <AmEv> Did you take a look at http://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12 ?
[03:43] <Nothing_Much> AmEv, That looks outdated
[03:45] <AmEv> Well, I'm no ARM expert (obviously), but it looks like you might be able to update.
[03:45] <Nothing_Much> I've never heard of Linaro before
[03:45] <Nothing_Much> Lemme check it out
[03:45] <AmEv> Also, Kdenlive does have an ARM build. Can't attest to how good it is (let alone on ARM), though.
[03:46] <Nothing_Much> I'm really confused about it
[03:46] <Nothing_Much> It SHOULD be as easy as just installing on an x86 cpu!
[03:46] <AmEv> Welcome to the world of ARM.
[03:46] <AmEv> I also wish it was that easy, too.
[03:46] <AmEv> Though.
[03:47] <Nothing_Much> I'm open to trying something new
[03:47] <Nothing_Much> But c'mon, where's the instructions on the Ubuntu website?? D:
[03:48] <AmEv> Looks like the Ubuntu website doesn't have links; guess it's jsut the odroid link I posted.
[03:48] <infinity> If you want it to be as easy as x86, get the hundreds of ARM SoC/board vendors to get their kernels functional upstream.
[03:49] <infinity> Our userspace works fine on all of them, but we can't give you nice hassle-free installers without sane and functional kernels.
[03:50] <Nothing_Much> infinity, I'm not sure what you mean by that.
[03:50] <Nothing_Much> The hardware kernels or firmware?
[03:51] <AmEv> The kernel sources merged upstream, right?
[03:52] <Nothing_Much> I'm confused, what kernels?
[03:52] <infinity> Yes, that.  They need to get their patches merged upstream, and they need to make them function with the new generic/multiplatform world order.
[03:52] <infinity> Sadly, most vendors don't put much effort into that, and then just blame distros for being "lazy" and not maintaining 75 out-of-tree kernels.
[03:52] <AmEv> Well, prepare for literally hundreds of gnu_linux_<board>_defconfig.... haha
[03:52] <infinity> It's improving, though.  Slowly.
[03:53] <Nothing_Much> I'd give anything that I can afford to get rid of this heater right next to me :/
[03:53] <AmEv> Yeah... Still frustrated at the fact that Tegra foo support is spotty.
[03:53] <Nothing_Much> foo?
[03:53] <infinity> AmEv: Tegra's actually better than most now.  srwarren and friends have been putting a lot of effort in.
[03:53] <AmEv> Oh...
[03:53] <infinity> (which reminds me, I need to review a patch from him to debian-installer...)
[03:54] <AmEv> It's just that my Tegra 2 device has never booted anything other than Android.
[03:54] <Nothing_Much> Ugh, Android
[03:54] <Nothing_Much> I'd take iOS over that mess of an OS
[03:54] <AmEv> Heck, I couln't even get Ubuntu Touch to properly boot, either.
[03:54] <AmEv> (Toshiba Thrive, if you missed it at all).
[03:55] <Nothing_Much> I can't wait for Ubuntu Touch to come out though, on a phone I can buy.
[03:55] <AmEv> Got a kernel. Got a rootfs. Got a boot.img. Then got.... Stuck at "Toshiba" screen.
[03:55] <AmEv> Then got frustrated and walked away for several months.
[03:56] <Nothing_Much> Can I get a translation as to why there's so many different out of tree kernels for 1 CPU?
[03:56] <Nothing_Much> Or arch, I should say?
[03:56] <AmEv> Still, infinity, anything specific you know of that you can point me to, to help me out?
[03:57] <AmEv> Well, "arch" is short for "architecture". It's literally how the CPU is designed.
[03:57] <Nothing_Much> Exactly
[03:57] <Nothing_Much> So I would assume there shouldn't be more than 1 kernel for Arm... right? What am I missing?
[03:58] <AmEv> x86 uses what is known as "self-describing hardware".
[03:59] <AmEv> ARM, however, each and every piece of hardware *needs* to be explained in the kernel.
[04:00] <Nothing_Much> So.. why aren't the firmware devs giving out anything to the main kernel or the arm version of the Linux kernel?
[04:02] <AmEv> Most companies are just doing the bare minimum because they don't see the point in doing more with a product with "minimal market share".
[04:02] <AmEv> Plain english? "We're just plain lazy".
[04:02] <Nothing_Much> Wait, so Android has an installer easily?
[04:02] <infinity> Nothing_Much: ARM doesn't have a standard for device discovery (like openfirmware on PPC/Sparc, or ACPI on x86/ia64), so booting a "generic" kernel that could discover devices on the fly and function well wasn't an option.
[04:03] <infinity> Nothing_Much: That led to fragmentation as everyone just did their own thing in their own little playground to have kernels that could only boot on one very specific and narrow devic definition.
[04:03] <AmEv> Also, each and every device has very different GPIO pinouts. Even MOAR fragmentation.
[04:03] <infinity> Nothing_Much: We're fixing that with device tree and a slow consolodation of code back into the generic/multiplatform kernel, but it's slow going to fix an old unfriendly tree to play well with others.
[04:04] <AmEv> So, hopefully, in the future, we can get ARM kernels in the repos, right?
[04:04] <Nothing_Much> Oh please god make it so.
[04:04] <infinity> AmEv: The future is now? :P
[04:05] <infinity> AmEv: We *have* a generic kernel in the archive that boots several platforms.  What we don't have is dozens of platform-specific kernels.
[04:05] <AmEv> I thought it went "the past is history, the future is history, but right now is a gift; that's why it's called the 'present'"?
[04:06] <AmEv> *future is a mystery
[04:06] <AmEv> Still, that's one reason why manufacturers are required to push kernel sources, right?
[04:07] <infinity> They're required by the GPL to publish their sources if they give you a device with a Linux kernel binary on it, yes.  Not that that helps much when their source is some hacked up fork of a fork of a fork of a tree from three years ago, unless you want to spend countless man-months fixing up their stuff to work the Right Way.
[04:10] <AmEv> I'm still curious if there's a way to inject the ADB server into Android-to-native-Ubuntu devices.....
[04:10] <AmEv> If so, that would make debugging a crapton easier.
[04:13] <AmEv> Still, if any Tegra guru wants to give me pointers, I'm on XDA, same handle.
[04:14] <AmEv> (Not that you haven't given me any help at all right now, guys! Humor always is a GREAT help!)
[16:42] <Vanfanel> Hi, how can I add TIOMAP PPA to the apt repositories list in Ubuntu 13.04??