[00:58] <bluesabre> OvenWerks: do you have a suggestion for better functionality?
[00:58] <bluesabre> ochosi ^ see OvenWerks' note
[01:20] <skellat> I'm trying to improve the bug filed by Noskcaj as LP Bug #1228731 but can't remember what is the second bug that will be fixed if his sync happens
[01:20] <skellat> Still need to remove sponsors as we're at the point that release team has to approve
[01:21] <Unit193> Wouldn't you want to wait to see if 4.10.1 is released or what we're doing there?
[01:23] <skellat> I'm not passing on his bug either way
[01:23] <skellat> I'm just trying to clean it up
[01:24] <skellat> I'm nervous that he wants to sync something that just hit Sid a few hours ago though
[01:25] <skellat> Noskcaj gets whacked in the Patch Pilot reports for incomplete request bugs so I'm trying to figure out what the missing bits are.  Whether or not this is advisable I leave to micahg & mr_pouit.
[01:42] <Noskcaj> skellat, It fixes the "xfhelp4 is missing" bug and bug 1198746
[01:42] <Noskcaj> I'm going to wait for on of the two devs to be around before i look a squeeze of xfwm4
[01:42] <Noskcaj> I'm not quite sure why adding an extra space in the bug was necessary though 
[01:43] <skellat> Noskcaj: Okay, go back to LP Bug #1228731 and unsubscribe sponsors as it isn't time for them to be involved.  This goes to release team to sign off on.
[01:44] <skellat> There we go.
[01:44] <Noskcaj> I didn't thing this needed an FFe since it's bugfix only
[01:44] <skellat> We're at the point where copying things needs Release Team permission
[01:45] <Noskcaj> oops
[01:45] <skellat> Yeah, you're kinda cutting it close with this.
[01:45] <skellat> I just want to make sure you have it set up with the data others will need to review.
[01:46]  * smartboyhw didn't realize that even copying things need Release Team permission-.-
[01:46] <smartboyhw> (I mean right now)
[01:46] <smartboyhw> Isn't Beta 2 Freeze on Monday?
[01:46] <Noskcaj> yep
[01:46] <Noskcaj> Which i'll be away for ;(
[01:46] <smartboyhw> Noskcaj, ouch
[01:46] <skellat> It being the weekend, treat it as not being handled until Monday
[01:47] <skellat> You may well be told either "No" or "Wait and do an SRU after release"
[01:47] <Noskcaj> ok
[01:48] <skellat> As to squeeze, we already killed it as it depended upon HAL.  Does the Debian version still depend upon HAL?  Upstream also was fine with us killing it in our repository at this point.
[01:51] <skellat> Never mind, I just looked.  It depends on libthunar-vfs which is the HAL dependency which was killed in the repository and is not coming back.  Seeking a sync on squeeze would be a bad thing at this point.  See LP Bug #1221254.
[01:55] <Noskcaj> skellat, yeah, i'd forgot that till about 5 minutes ago
[01:55] <skellat> Noskcaj: It happens.  Don't worry about it.
[01:55] <Noskcaj> Hopefully the new squeeze will be out in time for 14.04
[01:55] <skellat> It'll need a bit of re-writing to shift to using gvfs instead of the old HAL stuff
[01:57] <Noskcaj> Do you think it's worth merging xfwm? It's a doc fix is the only part that really matters 
[01:58] <skellat> Changelog link?
[01:59] <skellat> Wait.
[01:59] <skellat> A doc fix is the only part that matters?
[01:59] <skellat> That freeze was Thursday.
[01:59] <skellat> We're done with docs for the Saucy Salamander cycle and really shouldn't be touching them again.
[02:01] <skellat> So if that's the only thing in the merge I wouldn't worry about it
[02:01] <skellat> We're at the point in the cycle of squashing bugs and polishing things to make a fabulous release
[02:12] <skellat> :-) I enjoy being wrong and being corrected by Scott Kitterman
[02:12] <bluesabre> :D
[02:12] <bluesabre> skellat wrong? where!? :D
[02:13]  * smartboyhw always gets corrected by ScottKL
[02:13] <smartboyhw> *ScottK
[02:16] <Noskcaj> bluesabre, the sync bug where he just wasted time ;)
[02:16] <Noskcaj> skellat, http://ftp-master.metadata.debian.org/changelogs/main/x/xfwm4/unstable_changelog 
[02:17] <Noskcaj> It actually allows the xfwm4 online docs to work
[02:17] <bluesabre> ah
[02:17] <skellat> Does it close an outstanding bug on LP anywhere?
[02:18] <bluesabre> I reported one at some point long long ago
[02:18] <bluesabre> (probably still open)
[02:19] <bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-screenshooter/+bug/1054407
[02:19] <bluesabre> related to that?
[02:19] <skellat> bluesabre: No, that's the other one we were talking about.  Now we're looking at Noskcaj's proposed xfwm4 merge.
[02:19] <bluesabre> ah, ok
[02:20] <bluesabre> I'll stop butting in :)
[02:20] <Unit193> bluesabre: Butt it's so fun! :P
[02:20] <Noskcaj> lol
[02:20] <bluesabre> :D
[02:20] <Noskcaj> the xfwm bug is http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=714026
[03:17] <OvenWerks> bluesabre: Sorry, been gone for a while. I think, if possible draw the backgrounds in reverse oder
[03:18] <OvenWerks> *order
[03:18] <OvenWerks> Draw screen 1 first then screen 2
[03:22] <OvenWerks> It is sort of a funny thing, because it only probably matters to most people the first time they login after which they put the screens side by side.... Just buggy systems Like the Intel Atom GPU seem to have the problem all the time. This may be the desktop or xfwm4 that does this anyway.
[03:24] <OvenWerks> Ga, I must be half asleep. Two lines up should be screen 1 then screen 0
[03:32] <OvenWerks> Not something to worry about for 13.10 though
[03:55] <bluesabre> OvenWerks, thanks for reporting it, I'll look into possibly doing that
[03:56] <bluesabre> Noskcaj: I've fixed executable-not-elf-or-script for whenever I do the next catfish release.  Thanks for the tip :)
[03:56] <Noskcaj> yay
[03:57] <Noskcaj> Why do you have the makefile instead of setup.py?
[04:02] <OvenWerks> bluesabre: I have such a broken gpu for testing :P
[07:37] <ochosi> brainwash: yes, it's only visually broken and i have the patch almost ready here locally (for Greybird)
[09:20] <knome> morning elfy 
[09:22] <knome> channel: which of you are able to do testing for beta 2?
[09:23] <Noskcaj> knome, not me, sorry. My family is going on holidays
[09:24] <knome> Noskcaj, okay, have fun
[09:24] <Noskcaj> knome, I won't. Can you have a look at bug 1228731 and the new debian version of xfwm4?
[09:26] <knome> that bug seems to be fine (just find an uploader now)
[09:26] <knome> and what about xfwm4?
[09:27] <Noskcaj> There's been a release that fixes http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=714026
[09:27] <knome> i don't know if we want to pull in new versions at this point if they aren't going to fix release-critical bugs because they are prone to new bugs
[09:27] <Noskcaj> both of these are bugless and fix things that it would be bad to release with
[09:27] <Noskcaj> *new bug-less
[09:28] <knome> well you can't promise that, nobod can
[09:29] <elfy> knome: morning and I'll be doing some testing 
[09:30] <knome> i'm fine with both, if you take care of getting them uploaded and responsibility for looking after fixes *if* they break something
[09:30] <knome> Noskcaj, ^
[09:30] <knome> elfy, heh, i expected you to ;)
[09:31] <elfy> :)
[09:31] <Noskcaj> knome, of course. I'll still wait for micahg or mr_pouit to check xfwm4
[09:31] <knome> Noskcaj, lionel probably isn't around to do that, and micah will be awfully busy anyway, so it might not happen, at least before b2
[09:39] <knome> i'm off for now. see you
[09:41] <Noskcaj> bye
[10:21] <elfy> ochosi: you seen the more or less unreadable 'rulers' in abiword ?
[10:24] <brainwash> elfy: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/abiword/+bug/1031137
[10:25] <brainwash> and this strange black border, or is it supposed to be black?
[10:28] <brainwash> looks wrong to me, but I never really use abiword, just randomly opened it yesterday (test installation)
[10:29] <Noskcaj> i just opened abiword, that's new and very ugly
[10:58] <elfy> brainwash: yea - saw that bug and we were talking about it yesterday - then I wandered off into real life and forgot about it :)
[12:27] <brainwash> elfy: xubuntu should move to libreoffice (maybe only pick writer and calc)
[13:03] <elfy> brainwash: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-November/008541.html
[13:04] <elfy> pretty sure it's raised it's head more recently on the m/l too
[13:04] <elfy> personally I use LO - but I see no reason to move to it - if I want to use it I can 
[13:05] <elfy> I use gedit more often than mousepad
[13:05] <elfy> I only use gmusicbrowser to test during cycle
[13:05] <elfy> I never use gigolo 
[13:06] <elfy> I never use catfish
[13:06] <elfy> :)
[13:34] <brainwash> elfy: so the major concern was, that it will break the 700mb cd format limit
[13:35] <brainwash> besides that, LO was (is?) considered to be bloated
[13:35] <bluesabre> the other part is that LO doesn't actually use gtk
[13:36] <bluesabre> but with how bad abiword is, I will happily support a push for LO
[13:36] <brainwash> neither does firefox, or?
[13:36] <bluesabre> true
[13:37] <bluesabre> yeah, we don't have great complaints against it other than its size
[13:37] <bluesabre> which we don't care about as much either anymore
[13:37] <brainwash> and it does work without having java installed, it's optional
[13:39] <bluesabre> gotta go, bbl
[13:39] <brainwash> cya
[13:51] <elfy> brainwash: not sure what the outcome was/has been since tbh
[13:51] <brainwash> elfy: plenty of time to reconsider this change for 14.04 :)
[13:53] <elfy> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-users/2013-June/005589.html
[13:53] <elfy> I knew I'd seen it all recently
[13:55] <brainwash> oh, it really is a never ending story
[13:55] <elfy> yep
[13:58] <elfy> unfortunately the only arguments I've seen for moving to it are 
[13:58] <elfy> 1 - I use it
[13:59] <elfy> 2 - we've got more space
[13:59] <elfy> neither of which are good reasons imho
[14:02] <brainwash> 3 - it's LO
[14:02] <elfy> well I don't count that as an argument :)
[14:06] <brainwash> so back to the black border / almost invisible ruler issue
[14:07] <elfy> which I assume is theme based issue
[14:07] <brainwash> can you check different themes?
[14:07] <elfy> I did check with the default installed themes - not good in any of the dark ones
[14:09] <brainwash> this is almost a show-stopper :/
[14:11] <elfy> can read it in high contrast and raleigh/ can justjust about see it in bluebird,greybird andorion, can;t see it in numix
[14:11] <elfy> whoops
[14:12] <elfy> not sure what that was about 
[14:14] <brainwash> do you think, that this should be fixed before final release? currently it looks like nobody really cares about this visual glitch
[14:15] <elfy> I do - but I can't fix it 
[14:15] <elfy> and it's sunday afternoon - others might too - but they might be away :)
[14:16] <brainwash> but maybe it's not fixable, due to some gtk shenanigans in abiword
[14:16] <brainwash> yea true
[14:16] <elfy> maybe so - I can't answer that question - hence the comment to simon earlier
[14:17] <elfy> I'd assume bluesabre knows if it is or isn't
[14:19] <brainwash> should we add details about the ruler issue to the existing bug report? maybe even add shimmer-themes to the list of affected packages
[14:20] <brainwash> bug 1031137
[14:20] <elfy> I'd not add shimmer-themes without double checking 
[14:21] <elfy> I'll make a note on the bug report for the moment 
[14:21] <brainwash> ok, thanks
[14:28] <brainwash> http://bugzilla.abisource.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13262
[14:30] <elfy> yep
[14:30] <elfy> thanks - no idea how to tie the lp bug with that
[14:31] <elfy> if that's been resolved/fixed why is it still in the abiword version we're using 
[14:35] <elfy> brainwash: I agree that releasing this as it is is not very good
[14:36] <brainwash> no sure, why it's still there
[14:37] <brainwash> maybe some theme tweaks are required
[17:00] <ochosi> brainwash, elfy: i have once before spent lotsa time to debug that silly abiword issue (yes, it's a long-standing issue), i tried to work with upstream to get it resolved
[17:00] <ochosi> but it's been a long time and i'm not sure it was ever resolved
[17:00] <ochosi> anyway, i can't really fix it in the theme i guess
[17:01] <ochosi> and at this point i'm not feeling like spending lotsa time to look into this issue again
[17:01] <elfy> ok thanks ochosi 
[17:01] <elfy> I sort of guessed it had been looked at previously but couldn't find ref to it 
[17:04] <ochosi> i can dig around tomorrow
[17:09] <brainwash> what a bummer :/
[17:11] <Unit193> elfy: Yeah, those aren't good reasons.  I'd think abiword breaking all the time and LO being much more compatible would be though. ;)
[17:15] <ochosi> we can have that discussion again for 14.04
[17:16] <ochosi> but someone should sum up the diffs in an app-comparison in a wiki page
[17:16] <Unit193> Do we have to? :P
[17:16] <ochosi> volunteers..?
[17:16] <ochosi> hehe, yeah, it would be good to take an informed decision
[17:16] <ochosi> otherwise it might end up very subjectively
[17:17] <Unit193> That's the main issue with the music manager. :P
[17:18] <elfy> refusing to get drawn into that one ... 
[17:19] <ochosi> Unit193: huhu, write an app comparison and let's have a discussion :>
[17:19] <Unit193> I'm with you, I'll do whatever I want, and others can do what they want.  I'm not sane anyway, so there's always that.
[17:23] <elfy> ochosi: I agree with that 
[17:23] <Unit193> find, grep, and nvlc or mocp being one, right? :P
[17:27] <Unit193> ochosi: Actually, what'd make sense is if the users of the applications write up the section for their favorite player, that way you get a bias that should about even out.
[17:28] <elfy> I think we're talking about abiword/LO not music players :)
[17:28] <brainwash> speaking of moc(p) it's not usable in saucy due to a seg fault in librcc
[17:30] <Unit193> Erm, crap.
[17:32] <brainwash> maybe a survey could help to determine, if the xubuntu users prefer LO over abiword/gnumeric
[17:32] <Unit193> popcon likes LO better.
[17:33] <Unit193> ( http://paste.openstack.org/show/29UMKCNaEqIaKeQIOLER )
[17:36] <Unit193> brainwash: You know the bug report?
[17:37] <elfy> Unit193: but is popcon ignoring other flavour installs of LO 
[17:38] <Unit193> Of course not.
[17:38] <elfy> then it's meaningless 
[17:38] <Unit193> For the most part, yeppers.
[17:39] <elfy> I'd say we need a comparison and perhaps something for people to yay/nay 
[17:39] <elfy> or have it at a meeting for people to yay/nay or ... 
[17:40] <Unit193> LP poll? :P
[17:42] <elfy> well - as I tend to leave abiword/gnumeric installed and install writer and calc - I'd be +0 whichever we did 
[17:42] <elfy> I think brainwash could do the comparison :)
[17:43] <Unit193> I purge 'em, if I'm not using them why have them?
[17:44] <elfy> well ... as they are only actually in a partition for about 4 months why bother doing anything with them 
[18:07] <knome> tbh, i don't think libreoffice is a real option for xubuntu
[18:09] <elfy> mmm - well I'm not sure abiword is either when you can't see the tab ruler in most of the defualt themes
[18:09] <Unit193> knome: I'm not saying I disagree, but why do you think that?
[18:11] <knome> elfy, sure, but that's a different issue altogether
[18:11] <elfy> :)
[18:12] <knome> libreoffice is a totally different beast
[18:13] <elfy> yep - I understand that 
[18:14] <knome> i would personally be fine with even lighter office apps than abiword and gnumeric
[18:14] <elfy> all I've been saying really is that people should set out the pros/cons somewhere 
[18:14] <knome> or, abiword mostly; i think gnumeric is fine in what it does
[18:14] <knome> abiword is not exactly like wordpad, which is around the level i'd be happy with
[18:14] <elfy> personally I'd be fine with none because I install calc and writer :)
[18:15] <knome> right, exactly
[18:15] <knome> when i need office apps, i need pretty specific stuff
[18:15] <knome> but i don't think i'm the normal user
[18:15] <knome> or the average, to that matter
[18:16] <knome> i think many need word processing here and there, and for that, abiword or something even lighter would work well
[18:16] <Unit193> knome: calligrawords or wordgrinder!
[18:16] <knome> as long as they are able to type and they can print the stuff out of the machine
[18:16] <knome> Unit193, well i'd like a typesetting set, so if you know where to get one cheaply... ;)
[18:17] <knome> i'm just saying that most people who say "abiword is not good/enough" are people who need word processing often
[18:17] <knome> and that's a completely valid point from their POV
[18:17] <knome> but then, most of our users probably don't (i don't mind if i'm proven wrong)
[18:17] <knome> and for them abiword is more than good
[18:18] <Unit193> Might want to wait for early T to talk about it?  I'd think the worst part isn't features, but "Why can't my friend open this?" or "Why can't I open this on another computer."
[18:19] <elfy> yep
[18:20] <knome> Unit193, that would be a better time to discuss it
[18:21] <knome> then again, not sure we want to make such a drastic move for an LTS, so the *ideal* time is after 14.04
[18:21] <knome> but it naturally won't hurt to discuss it earlier
[18:21] <elfy> I see what you did there :p
[18:21] <knome> i just hope it doesn't go the same route as before
[18:21] <knome> somebody says LO is awesome, abiword is crap
[18:21] <knome> 10 people say "yeah i use LO too"
[18:21] <knome> discussion dead.
[18:22] <elfy> insist there's something to discuss against perhaps 
[18:23] <knome> one of the problems is that people do not see that we are selecting a default set of applications, not the set of applications the vocal minority uses
[18:23] <knome> if we installed what i do, you'd get for example inkscape, which is useless for most
[18:23] <elfy> I know 
[18:24] <elfy> we'd not have gmb if I chose
[18:24] <knome> ;)
[18:24] <elfy> it goes on and on 
[18:24] <knome> yep
[18:24] <knome> with office stuff...
[18:25] <knome> i'm pretty sure must of us agree on the fact that libreoffice writer is better than abiword, if you want a full-fledged word processor
[18:25] <knome> tbh, there's not much agreeing because that comparison is a fact
[18:25] <elfy> lol
[18:25] <knome> however, many people seem to think that's a valid argument for including LO writer (and with that more of LO)
[18:26] <Unit193> Well, I'd personally like to drop USC out of depends for xubuntu-desktop and put it as recommends, like all the other non-required applications...
[18:26] <knome> which is where i disagree...
[18:26] <knome> Unit193, we should set up xubuntu-core
[18:26] <knome> Unit193, wouldn't that ultimately fix that issue?
[18:26] <knome> Unit193, but yeah, what you say is quite valid as well, since it's not only about the default set of apps installed
[18:26] <Unit193> http://unit193.tk/xubuntu.core  - http://unit193.tk/xubuntu.desktop and I don't think so.
[18:28] <knome> Unit193, looked again at .core, and it still looks sane
[18:28] <knome> Unit193, we really should work on this for T
[18:28] <Unit193> knome: Any questions/feedback?
[18:29] <Unit193> knome: Sounds good to me as well.  May have to put in a basic browser (elinks, w3m) to fill the requirement of www-browser. :/
[18:29] <knome> midori maybe?
[18:29] <knome> i know, kind of diverging, but...
[18:30] <Unit193> I know what I'd like, but heh.  That'd pull in webkit, additionally?
[18:31] <knome> Unit193, would you be fine with writing some brief argumentation for the logic of those choices generally in a wikipage, then also list the packages that should be recommends instead of depends?
[18:31] <knome> Unit193, i'm pretty sure skellat is interested in helping with this as well
[18:32] <Unit193> Eh, wiki. :/
[18:32] <knome> Unit193, ultimately, we should be able to turn that spec wikipage into work items on the tracker for T and implement them
[18:32] <knome> i know, but that's where we're building up on our specs...
[18:33] <knome> if you want, i won't stop you from working on it in a pad or so, and then just dumping it to a wiki when you think it's ready.
[18:33] <Unit193> Oh, also http://unit193.tk/lubuntu.core is there too, something to compare it to (which it doesn't really.)
[18:33] <knome> heh
[18:33] <knome> have other flavors pretty much leeched our artwork stuff for their own use?
[18:34] <knome> (not a problem, just interesting to see, because that implies other stuff is pretty... lousy)
[18:35] <Unit193> Hmm?
[18:35] <Unit193> They use the weird box thing.
[18:35] <knome> lightdm-gtk-greeter
[18:35] <knome> plymouth-theme-lubuntu-logo
[18:36] <knome> sounds awfully familiar
[18:36] <Unit193> Greeter, yeah.
[18:36] <knome> or is it just the names
[18:36] <knome> :P
[18:36] <knome> think xubuntu-docs should be depends of xubuntu-desktop
[18:37] <Unit193> I'd be fine with that, but not sure -core should mirror that?
[18:37] <knome> most probably not
[18:38] <knome> recommends at most.
[18:39]  * skellat notes that it is Sunday when he has two podcasts to produce and is behind on getting one scripted at the moment
[18:39] <knome> wondering if that means -core should ship another menu file, or something
[18:39] <knome> skellat, no problem, we didn't sign you up anything for today
[18:40] <knome> for anything?
[18:40] <knome> yeah, i'm a bit tired 
[18:41] <elfy> it's better to miss words - keeps us on our toes :)
[18:41] <knome> heh
[18:41] <knome> didn't miss, i just aligned them weirdly :P
[18:42] <knome> ...i think
[18:42] <elfy> two for's would have worked :)
[18:42] <knome> i should start typing finnish
[18:42] <knome> THAT'D keep you on your toes
[18:42] <elfy> that'll work ... 
[18:42] <Unit193> OK, so my goal is basically getting everything to a workable state without much additional effort, thus networkmanager would be in there, but since things like browsers change per person...  Though that means things like lightdm could drop to recommends, since there's other options.
[18:42] <knome> Unit193, for -core or -desktop?
[18:42] <Unit193> Core, of course.
[18:43] <knome> mh
[18:43] <Unit193> Different goal?
[18:43] <knome> -core not having any login manager in depends? eh... :)
[18:43] <knome> that sounds fair, but i'm wondering if it's sane to drop kind of essential GUI stuff out
[18:43] <Unit193> It's very workable, and since recommends are on by default you'd still get it.
[18:43] <knome> i mean, it's still xubuntu-core, not pure-xfce
[18:44] <knome> unless you install with mini, then with --no-install-recommends
[18:44] <knome> which is obviously and edge case, and you should know what you are doing, but...
[18:44] <knome> it's still xubuntu
[18:44] <knome> i suppose one thing that should define the xubuntu core package is the xubuntu looks
[18:44] <Unit193> Exactly.  I'd be fine with that staying as a dep, though.
[18:44] <knome> and lightdm is an integral part of that
[18:45] <Unit193> Yep, and that's why I'd leave artwork in there.
[18:45] <knome> i don't think firefox is an essential part of the xubuntu identity, for example
[18:45] <knome> (of course!)
[18:46] <Unit193> I'd hope not, even if I like it. :P
[18:46] <knome> maybe there should only be a browser in recommends for core
[18:46] <knome> that could be like midori
[18:46] <knome> or something else really light, but possibly still GUI
[18:47] <knome> the point is, users who do not know anything about building up a sane system will use -core, and if we don't hold their hands in some way, they wil get an awfully bad experience and quit.
[18:47] <knome> or mess up their systems
[18:47] <bluesabre> midori is actually an xfce project, right?
[18:47] <knome> and say xubuntu sucks becuase it broke their system
[18:47] <knome> bluesabre, yup
[18:48] <Unit193> knome: I understand that, and agree with most, but don't think it should be users that don't know what they're doing. :P
[18:48] <Unit193> Still waiting on http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=695874 or whatever the ITP is. :/
[18:48] <knome> Unit193, you're saying we shouldn't know what we're doing? ;)
[18:48] <Unit193> knome: I never do.
[18:49] <knome> wondering if the option to install -core should only be in debian-installer, not ubiquity.
[18:49] <knome> just wondering.
[18:49] <knome> maybe that'd keep out most of the "i know it all" -newbies
[18:50] <Unit193> knome: It'll be a mini.iso+tasksel/apt-get etc.
[18:50] <knome> Unit193, at some point there was discussion going on if that should be an option in ubiquitu
[18:51] <knome> *ubiquity
[18:51] <Unit193> Well, that wouldn't be all bad.
[18:51] <knome> that would make it accessible, and when i say "it", i mean "-core with recommends"
[18:51] <Unit193> skellat: You had a chance to check the WIP seed? :P
[18:51] <Unit193> Yep.
[18:51] <knome> but that'd mean we would have to make sure there is enough GUI stuff for the newbie to work it out.
[18:52] <Unit193> Eh, I'd have to resign if you want USC in it. :P
[18:52] <knome> heh
[18:52] <knome> no, i'm not saying that.
[18:52] <Unit193> (And I'm kidding.)
[18:52] <knome> in -core, i'd say synaptic is fine.
[18:52] <knome> (if it's supported at all)
[18:52] <knome> and tbh, we probably should look at adding synaptic in the seed again if it's still supported.
[18:52] <Unit193> Well, I'm not the most fine with that, but don't object strongly. :)
[18:53] <knome> at least as a recommend, so basically to the default installation
[18:53] <Unit193> -desktop I'd like that idea, but that's just another preference.
[18:53] <knome> that wouldn't mean we could drop USC... unfortunately
[18:53] <knome> so maybe that'd be a bad idea
[18:54] <knome> people who want synaptic can install it anyway
[18:54] <Unit193> That was the general idea, yes.
[18:54] <knome> and many have just learned to use apt-get anywa
[18:54] <knome> *anyway
[18:54] <Unit193> knome: Mica doesn't want to drop USC unless you get another paid option.
[18:54] <knome> either literally learned or changing habits
[18:54] <knome> paid?
[18:55] <Unit193> (I use synaptic just to check origins.)  Things you buy from Canonical, or at least I think that's the biggest thing (behind maintainer maybe) LSC.
[18:55] <knome> aha
[18:56] <knome> yeah, while i don't need that stuff myself, i kind of agree
[18:58] <Unit193> OK, so should I go through the reasoning here now? :P
[18:58] <knome> i need to go for an hour in 5, but if you want to... as long as it's on a wikipage sometime before next year :P
[19:00] <knome> ok, i'm off, see you in an hour or so
[19:34] <Unit193> knome: OK, I have something basic, but it may not be something anyone can understand. :P
[19:35]  * elfy is more likely to understand something basic :p
[19:35] <Unit193> Not like this you aren't: http://piratepad.net/LHmJgCBW6V
[19:38] <elfy> yes I can :)
[19:38] <Unit193> Wooo!  Awesome.
[19:38] <elfy> update-manager - do people use this?  I'd assume someone using this to install a basic kit is going to know what apt-get upgrade does ;)
[19:39] <Unit193> Yeah, I know I never need it, and it's been the cause of some problems in #x before.  I'm in favor of dropping.  Thanks for the feedback!
[19:41] <elfy> you want people to make notes on the pad?
[19:43] <Unit193> Didn't think about it, just my way of avoiding the wiki for now.  Might be a good idea, but I did just comment out update-manager. :)
[19:44] <elfy> well I'd leave it on there - just leave disparaging comments :p
[19:48] <Unit193> Think I did that for half the stuff anyway. :P
[19:49] <elfy> :)
[19:52] <brainwash> drop whoopsie?! :/
[19:54] <Unit193> As part of a -core metapackage, not -desktop.
[19:55] <brainwash> yea, I understand
[19:55] <Unit193> And not been done.
[19:55] <brainwash> I removed most of those packages anyway
[19:58] <Unit193> Hrm, an idea was to add synaptic to recommends, but that may be more of a preference thing.
[19:58] <brainwash> Thunar depends on desktop-file-utils
[20:00] <elfy> well I always add synaptic :)
[20:01] <ali1234> software-properties-gtk is the only gui way to install proprietary drivers - it's pretty important
[20:01] <Unit193> Yep.
[20:01] <Unit193> brainwash: Yes, so having it listed is somewhat double tasking.
[20:02] <Unit193> Well, you can install drivers other ways...
[20:02] <ali1234> yeah, by going to command line and running jockey-cli with a series of cryptic arguments
[20:03] <ali1234> i don't think anyone does that unless their system is so broken X won't start
[20:03] <elfy> and again someone likely to be installing -core is going to be more likely to know what they're doing anyway imo
[20:03] <ali1234> be careful with that argument
[20:04] <elfy> I'm never careful 
[20:04] <ali1234> you might as well say that if they know what they're doing they can just install all the packages manually, and drop -core entirely
[20:04] <elfy> we can all go home then in that case :)
[20:04] <Unit193> Well, it's easy to install software-properties-gtk, but as xubuntu-default-settings has a desktop file for the settings manager to it, may want to leave it.
[20:07] <brainwash> what about the infamous catfish search app?
[20:07] <Unit193> Not required IMO, but it's nice for those that use it.
[20:08] <brainwash> does it still require the zeitgeist backend?
[20:09] <Unit193> Nope, been fixed.
[20:09] <brainwash> took them like 1 year to fix it :)
[20:11] <Unit193> Too late, been purged a long time, I use locate and find. :D
[20:12] <Unit193> elfy: Oh, do you actually use it (often)?
[20:13] <elfy> use what?
[20:13] <elfy> Unit193: ^^
[20:14] <Unit193> Synaptic.
[20:14] <elfy> yep
[20:14] <elfy> I always use it - can't be bothered to fiddle with apt-get unless I know the package name and haven't got time to wait for USC
[20:15] <Unit193> Might be worth adding if removing the only other installed GUI package manager, but preference again?   Same with gdebi?
[20:15] <elfy> it is a personal preference imo
[20:16] <elfy> yea - I have that kciking about as well
[20:17] <elfy> but if we need to keep USC re comments of micah then perhaps synaptic should be like other things people install for preference
[20:17] <Unit193> Ah, desktop stuff.  Yeah, I just want to drop it to a recommend.
[20:18] <elfy> synaptic?
[20:18] <Unit193> USC, currently xubuntu-desktop depends on it.
[20:19] <Unit193> brainwash: Any more input?  Or am I just totally off my rocker?
[20:19] <elfy> Unit193: I think that USC is likely to be on of those things we should have 
[20:24] <Unit193> knome: The themes section is actually following with the seed theme section.  "Other" contains xubuntu-artwork thoughts.
[20:24] <brainwash> Unit193: is the general idea to establish a Xubuntu light edition (ubuntu minimal + xubuntu core)?
[20:24] <knome> aha
[20:25] <Unit193> brainwash: Yes, very minimal install but one that actually basically works OOTB (thus, networkmanager.)
[20:25] <knome> minimal but usable on a daily installation
[20:26] <knome> if somebody wants something even lighter, they probably want a weird enough installation that's best to do manually
[20:27] <brainwash> mmh, that made me think of xubuntu cli edition
[20:28] <knome> that wouldn't be xubuntu...
[20:28] <brainwash> xubuntu logo inside the terminal
[20:29] <Unit193> Like archey does, only blue.
[20:29] <knome> no, i don't think that's still xubuntu
[20:29] <Unit193> (Kidding.)
[20:30] <knome> (i know)
[20:31] <brainwash> so, who would benefit from the -core installation? wouldn't it split the community?
[20:32] <knome> people who would install other default apps anyway
[20:32] <Unit193> For use with the mini.iso.
[20:32] <brainwash> everyone does
[20:32] <knome> the point is to make -core still be xubuntu, to avoid not being xubuntu or splitting the community
[20:32] <brainwash> "everyone"
[20:33] <knome> it's dangerous to go the generalisation route...
[20:33] <Unit193> I don't think the tech board rules metapackages?  Anywho, thanks and I'll read more when I get back. :)
[20:34] <Unit193> That is to say, don't think they do for things like apport/-core.
[20:34] <knome> hmph, no idea
[20:34] <knome> if it's installable via ubiquity, they might
[20:40] <elfy> knome: is the idea/hope to be working on this so it's available for 14.04?
[20:40] <knome> elfy, yep
[20:41] <elfy> ok - and for the moment we are assuming that a default xubuntu standard thing is the same as now for 
[20:41] <elfy> 14.04
[20:41] <elfy> I guess
[20:41] <knome> well we have to assume something, right? :)
[20:41] <elfy> yep
[20:41] <elfy> I'm just starting to think about what I want to do with testing for T 
[20:42] <knome> :)
[20:42] <knome> automated testing
[20:42] <knome> ;)
[20:42] <elfy> don't mind the sands shifting a bit under my feet as long as we don't get a landslide is all :)
[20:42] <elfy> yep - it's foremost in my head now 
[20:42] <knome> nobody's hoping that
[20:43] <elfy> indeed :)
[20:44] <elfy> knome: did you see this one? http://pad.ubuntu.com/duYDbHFs7s
[20:44] <knome> nope, not yet
[20:44] <elfy> mmk
[20:44] <knome> agreed with the last point
[20:45] <knome> we definitely should try to cut down to one test
[20:45] <knome> or maybe two
[20:45] <knome> post-installation
[20:45] <knome> and hardware stuff
[20:45] <knome> like printers, scanners...
[20:45] <elfy> ok - makes sense - will look at that 
[20:45] <knome> could be easier to track possibly hardware-related issues and software issues separated
[20:45] <elfy> yep
[20:45] <knome> let me know if you need help with it at any point
[20:46] <elfy> I'll work on it - get to a point I'm happy and then you can look and we can go from there - does that make sense?
[20:46] <knome> yep, that sounds good
[20:46] <elfy> k
[21:00] <OvenWerks> knome: with regards to the LO discusion. ubuntustudio uses an installer that lets studio put an installer in say the office menu that has just office apps in it. We use it for one because we don't ship LO (or abiword for that matter). I am willing to change it to be more generic if it would help
[21:01] <knome> OvenWerks, i know you do - and thanks
[21:01] <knome> OvenWerks, not sure if that's something we want to do since we ship *some* office apps already, but we'll see
[21:01] <OvenWerks> It is easy to configure to have whatever you want in a menu.
[21:02] <knome> yep, i get that
[21:02] <OvenWerks> The next version does not show things already installed
[21:02] <knome> :)
[21:02] <elfy> knome: I'd certainly like to see the option discussed 
[21:03] <knome> that doesn't remove other packages though
[21:03] <OvenWerks> no
[21:03] <knome> (and i don't think it should)
[21:03] <OvenWerks> It is just that we can't ship "everything"
[21:03] <elfy> knome: I don't remove the defaults either - but then my install's tend to not last longer than 4 months anyway 
[21:04] <elfy> anyway - night all 
[21:04] <knome> i can imagine many people installing LO wanting to remove abiword/gnumeric though
[21:05] <knome> night elfy :)
[21:05] <elfy> knome: those people can do so - personally I'm not worried about a few bytes of space
[21:05] <knome> heh, yeah
[21:06] <knome> but then people can also do that with UCS/synaptic and no menu entry ;)
[21:06] <elfy> but if LO was default and I wanted abiword/gnumeric - I'd be wanting to remove LO
[21:06] <knome> sure
[21:07] <elfy> yea - this is one of those discussions that it's hard to have here as we're more likely to know what we want to do 
[21:07] <elfy> what we NEED to do is provide a sane default 
[21:07] <OvenWerks> The main problem with installing LO that I have had, is that the default *.doc opener remains abiword... which has confused my wife.
[21:07] <elfy> OvenWerks: I noticed that too 
[21:07] <knome> OvenWerks, that's naturally fixable, but yeah, i can see that confusing people
[21:08] <OvenWerks> My wife sends gets file from windows computers a lot
[21:08] <elfy> I fix it the first time I remember - what I've not managed to do is remember earlier ;)
[21:08] <OvenWerks> :)
[21:10] <elfy> anyway - sofa beckons - cya 
[21:45] <knome> i'm off to bed as well
[21:45] <knome> i'll be back in 12 hours or sth
[21:45] <knome> o/