[18:21] <F014> godbyk: ping.
[18:23] <F014> godbyk: You there .. hi ?
[18:31] <F014> godbyk: I notice it seems hard , as of late  to get hold of the admins for Ubuntu Manual .. with weeks going by with no IRC presence   (as ppl aren't always easy to get hold of ).. Soo I'll just reiterate and shoot with my question ..
[18:31] <F014> godbyk: I wasn't sure how to check the Ubuntu manual logs to see if there was any changes to the Ru version .. any change last week ? .. as mentioned in my question 3 days ago .. [ http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/09/20/%23ubuntu-manual.html ]
[18:32] <godbyk> F014: I'm here.
[18:32] <F014> cool stuff .. hello.
[18:32] <godbyk> F014: What was your earlier question?  I may have been offline when you posed it.
[18:32] <F014> godbyk: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/09/20/%23ubuntu-manual.html
[18:33] <godbyk> F014: The 13.10 version of the manual isn't available for translation yet.
[18:34] <F014> is there any change in the last week to the 13.04 russian version of the manual ?
[18:34] <godbyk> F014: The manual should be available for translation about the same time Ubuntu 13.10 itself is released.
[18:34] <godbyk> Oh, 13.04?  Let me check.
[18:34] <F014> thank-you.
[18:35] <godbyk> It appears that the translation was last updated August 1.  <https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+translations>
[18:36] <F014> ok thank-you .. Just to be sure .. that was the last instance of translation for the 13.04 Russian version ?
[18:37] <godbyk> I assume so.  That's the date that Launchpad gives me, at least.
[18:37] <godbyk> Are you working on the Russian translation?
[18:38] <F014> ok thank-you .. I am not .. but I was told by a contributor that he had completed that language version of 13.04 .. guess not.
[18:39] <godbyk> Ah, okay.
[18:39] <godbyk> It looks like it's pretty close to being complete.
[18:39] <godbyk> The next steps are:
[18:39] <godbyk> 1. Finish translating all the text.
[18:40] <godbyk> 2. Proofread everything and fix any errors.
[18:40] <godbyk> 3. Take all the screenshots in Russian.
[18:40] <godbyk> 4. Email me to let me know it's ready to be published.
[18:40] <godbyk> 5. Wait for me to make some tweaks and publish it.
[18:41] <F014> got it. Thank-you once again .. & good luck with the project.
[18:42] <godbyk> No problem. Thanks for your interest!
[19:52] <F014> godbyk: you still there, I think I have a problem ...#
[19:54] <F014> godbyk:    ^ ??
[19:59] <F014> godbyk: QUESTION : Can you confirm that he has done this ?? And to what extent of the Russian version ??? [ chat: http://bit.ly/1dEp2dK ] |   _His_ profile : https://launchpad.net/~3530555-x/+karma
[20:34] <F014> godbyk: ping.
[20:34] <godbyk> F014: pong.
[20:35] <F014> can you see the above question ?
[20:35] <godbyk> yep
[20:35] <godbyk> I'm reading your links now
[20:35] <F014> np
[20:38] <godbyk> I see his suggestions listed.
[20:39] <godbyk> I think they're awaiting another Russian translator to approve/accept the suggestions.
[20:40] <godbyk> brb
[20:41] <F014> OK .. are you sure about that ? .. & Why is this not now listed under the "Needs review" column of the Russian line in https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+translations ??
[20:59] <godbyk> F014: When I click on the number in the 'needs review' review column, it takes me to this page: <https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+pots/ubuntu-manual/ru/+translate?show=new_suggestions>
[20:59] <godbyk> I see some translations when I search that page for 'Swerkl'.
[20:59] <F014> opening ..
[21:04] <F014> godbyk: I see no change .. I don't understand [ my screenshot of yur instructions : http://bit.ly/1aZTazh  ] .. Can you give me a screenshot of yours ? / or at least where I can see his work ?
[21:05] <godbyk> Sure.. one sec.
[21:07] <godbyk> http://imgur.com/po3py40
[21:07] <F014> opening .. thanks.
[21:08] <godbyk> That's from this page <https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+pots/ubuntu-manual/ru/+translate?show=new_suggestions>.
[21:09] <F014> Soo .. how much has he translated .. he originally said he did 770 words in total .. is this accurate ?
[21:10] <F014> & more importantly .. how many words are there needed to be 'put in Russian review' before this can be completely finished ?
[21:10] <godbyk> Hmm.. I'm not sure how to determine that. Sorry.
[21:11] <godbyk> There are 32 'strings' that still need to be reviews plus another 188 strings that need to be translated.
[21:11] <godbyk> A string can be an entire paragraph or a fraction of a sentence.
[21:11] <godbyk> You can view the untranslated strings at <https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+pots/ubuntu-manual/ru/+translate?show=untranslated>.
[21:11] <F014> Well, why doesn't the raring ubuntu manual show that his work is included in the 'Needs review' column  ??
[21:12] <godbyk> There are 32 strings that need to be reviewed. On the first page, he had translated three or four of those. I didn't check all of them.
[21:12] <godbyk> So it is showing his work.
[21:14] <F014> OK .. very good , but i need to know two things to get this completed .. 1stly a minor point .. Why does the 'Last Changed' column not show a newer date (including his work) .. and 2ndly ..
[21:15] <godbyk> I'm just guessing here.. but I think the 'last changed' column may be the date of the last reviewed translation. In other words, translations awaiting review don't affect the date.
[21:16] <F014> Do I have to go through the untranslated part piece by piece to let my Russian friends know what figure is left of the untranslated Russian words, in order to get this finished, or what ?
[21:17] <F014> I need figures .. of the untranslated words left to translate .. 'needing review' .. (?)
[21:17] <godbyk> There are two things that Russian translators can do to help along the process:
[21:17] <godbyk> 1. Translated the untranslated strings (available at <https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+pots/ubuntu-manual/ru/+translate?show=untranslated>).
[21:18] <godbyk> 2. Proofread the strings needing review (at <https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+pots/ubuntu-manual/ru/+translate?show=new_suggestions>).
[21:18] <godbyk> I don't have a word count for you. I can only tell you how many 'strings' are untranslated or need review.
[21:18] <godbyk> If you follow those two links, though, you can get an idea of how much text still needs to be translated.
[21:18] <F014> Ok . fair enough ..
[21:20] <F014> My first question (of the two) was more about why the 'Needs review' column has not changed in numeric terms ? even though, he says it is done ?
[21:21] <godbyk> I'm not sure.
[21:21] <godbyk> As far as I understand it, one translator submits a translation (which goes into the 'needs review' column) and then another verifies that translation (which removes it from that column).
[21:22] <godbyk> So he may have translated text and it's just waiting for another translator to come along and review it.
[21:23] <F014> godbyk: OK .. I understand the process, well,  by now .. But how do _I_ know the change has occurred via the Needs review column, if it has not changed ?
[21:25] <godbyk> Once the translations have been reviewed, the number in the 'needs review' column will drop.
[21:29] <F014> godbyk: What I am trying to say is : How does anyone know Swerkl has made _any_ changes (that need reviewed) via the Translation Status page , if the "Needs review" column has not 'gone up' when he submits / or as you say in yur instructions : "1. Translated the untranslated strings" , as I *see no change* in this column from two weeks ago.
[21:30] <godbyk> Ah, well, I assume the column count does go up.  And I see a few of his recent translations listed when I click on the number in that column.
[21:31] <godbyk> As far as how the translators know when someone's submitted a new translation: I don't know. I don't do much work on the translation side of things.
[21:31] <godbyk> But they can check the translations and see which strings are untranslated, which strings need review, etc. pretty easily.
[21:32] <godbyk> I imagine translators regularly check those things when they're working on translating a project.
[21:32] <godbyk> For a real answer, though, you'd have to contact the Russian translation team.
[21:32] <F014> Ok .. I _may_ well have to .. However ..
[21:33] <F014> When I click on the number (Needs review-"32") .. I see *no mention* of Swerkl in any of those logs ..
[21:35] <godbyk> When I click on the needs review '32', I see Swerkl's name on the third string (#372) with a date of 2013-09-20.
[21:38] <F014> godbyk: Well, why don't I see that , then ? [ http://bit.ly/1aZYse5 ]
[21:39] <godbyk> F014: Ah, it may be because you don't have permissions to review suggestions or add translations.
[21:40] <godbyk> I think you may have to be on the translation team or a project admin to do that.
[21:40] <godbyk> The screenshot I posted earlier shows how it appears to me: http://i.imgur.com/po3py40.png
[21:41] <godbyk> It's the same information as you can see, but it also shows me the suggested translations (that Swerkl provided) and a text box where I could enter a different translation.
[21:42] <F014> But why doesn't this reflect what is *really* happening - to us , average users ? I mean, isn't that what 'openess' is all about ? & how am I supposed to see results, like this ?
[21:42]  * F014 is baffled .. and needs to calm down.
[21:43] <godbyk> I'm not sure why they don't show you the translation awaiting review.
[21:43] <godbyk> My guess is that they don't show it to you because you can't review it anyway.
[21:44] <godbyk> They probably assume that giving you the statistics (number of untranslated/needs reviewed strings) is enough.
[21:45]  * F014 returns with cuppa tea ..
[21:48] <F014> OK .. I can live with your answer .. but one thing .. the "(number of .../needs reviewed strings)" has *not been updated at all .. which is off putting to someone checking whether there has been any suggestions submitted in any way. (As I keep saying .. there is no change to that column from two weeks ago).
[21:49] <godbyk> A couple possibilities I can think of to explain that:
[21:50] <godbyk> 1. The system is broken.
[21:50] <godbyk> 2. Someone has reviewed some strings and some new strings have been added.
[21:50] <godbyk> That is, if someone reviewed, say, 4 strings but then someone translated 4 more strings, the number would stay the same.
[21:51] <godbyk> To determine which case is true, you'd have to keep track of which strings need review.
[21:51] <F014> ok .. but the untranslated column has not changed either (?) Surely, that would change ?
[21:52]  * F014 drinks .. expecting the worst ...
[21:53] <godbyk> I would expect the untranslated column to drop, yes.
[21:54] <F014> ok .. but the untranslated column **has not** changed either .. in 2 weeks.
[21:54] <godbyk> That may be true. It would seem true given that the 'last changed' date is August 1.
[21:55] <godbyk> It looks like some of the strings in the 'untranslated' column have suggestions.
[21:55] <F014> Do you see my conundrum ?
[21:55] <godbyk> So apparently suggesting translations (i.e., those translations that haven't been reviewed yet) also count as 'untranslated'.
[21:56] <godbyk> So the 188 untranslated strings include the 32 'needs review' strings.
[21:56] <godbyk> If all of this is true, the only way for those numbers to drop (and for the date to change) is for translators to translate strings and approve those translations.
[21:57] <F014> OK .. So who should I forward this problem to .. or is there already a bug for this ?
[21:58]  * F014 want to progress the system .. for all users.
[21:58] <godbyk> Here's a screenshot of a string in the' untranslated' column that has suggestions awaiting review: <http://imgur.com/MOObzMp>
[21:58] <godbyk> You could file a bug against Launchpad. I think the translation system is also called 'Rosetta'.
[21:58] <godbyk> I don't know if a bug exists for this or not.
[21:58] <godbyk> I don't know if this is the intended behavior or not.
[22:01] <F014> It would be beneficial for others to see proposed behavior on the details page , at least , I think  .. https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+pots/ubuntu-manual/ru/+details
[22:03] <F014> i.e. just show show that you have 'made some change' etc .. it is rewarding to understand that.
[22:04] <godbyk> When I click on the Filter link next to Swerkl's name, I get this page <https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+pots/ubuntu-manual/ru/+filter?person=3530555-x>
[22:04] <F014> opening ..
[22:04] <godbyk> That shows all the translations he's done (along with the date).
[22:05] <godbyk> He's made 13 translations.
[22:05] <F014> godbyk: That's brilliant .. I see the same ...
[22:05] <godbyk> It looksl ike that list should include reviews translations, unreviewed suggestions, and rejected suggestions.
[22:05] <godbyk> So you can get a complete list of his contributions.
[22:05] <godbyk> Nice find!
[22:05] <godbyk> :)
[22:06] <F014> failt de complait ?
[22:07] <godbyk> heh
[22:08] <F014> .. I just meant is that us completed for this QnA ?
[22:08] <F014>  ... he has been a busy bee , hasn't he .
[22:08] <godbyk> Sure. Unless you had any other questions.
[22:09] <godbyk> Yeah, the translators do a *ton* of work!
[22:09] <godbyk> They're awesome!
[22:09] <F014> got half an hour to talk about the project (so far this year) ?
[22:11] <godbyk> I can chat a little bit, but I'll be in and out. I have some other work I have to get caught up on, too.
[22:12] <F014> ok .. I will try to talk just until 'quarter to' (the hour) .. as I'm not sure how late it is at your end ... (?) .. Here goes ...
[22:13] <F014> Ok .. So I think it was at a virtual UDS .. perhaps the first online google hangout one .. with Jono Bacomn and Elizabeth Crumbach (Xubuntu) .. in the community discussion I attended ..
[22:13] <F014> it was perhaps 4 or 5 or 6 months ago .. around then ..
[22:15] <F014> They mentioned the important notion that there was a grweat urgency to get a youtube video out there of how to translate the documents /documentation of the various Ubuntu projects ...
[22:15] <F014> ... including the one we've been talking about .. ubuntu-manual.
[22:15] <F014> As an admin ..
[22:16] <godbyk> Oh, cool. I must've missed that session. I'll have to chase down a recording.
[22:16] <F014> Has this cropt-up with you or your team , or has this discussion been furthered .. in a means to the end of creating a youtube video of how to contribute to the manual and basic doxcumentauion etc ?
[22:17] <F014> **documentation etc .. ?
[22:17] <godbyk> When we first started the project, we held some online classroom sessions.
[22:17]  * F014 thinks this is important.
[22:17] <godbyk> We haven't done anything lately, but perhaps we should.
[22:17] <F014> but has anyone contacted you about doing a youtube video ?
[22:18] <godbyk> I try to document most of our processes and procedures in our style guide. (The link to the style guide is in the channel topic.)
[22:18] <F014> **instructional youtube video             ..... ?
[22:18] <godbyk> Not to my knowledge.
[22:18]  * F014 senses a fail in communication somewhere          .....   'cos ..
[22:19] <F014> it was a very impotrtant *community* issue as I recall.
[22:19] <F014> i.e. how to get ppl to contribute .. who cannot normally , otherwise ,    ... code .
[22:20] <F014> ** contrib~ to the manual, that is.
[22:20] <godbyk> Yeah. I know that the manual and the docs team both always need new contributors.
[22:21] <godbyk> And I think both projects are good starting points for people who would like to contribute but don't know how to code (or aren't interested in coding).
[22:21]  * F014 believes it would help the project tremendously .. if this could be done       (youtube instructional video)            |....  your thoughts ?
[22:22] <godbyk> I think it's a fine idea.
[22:23] <godbyk> We've tried to document our processes and make getting started really easy, but sometimes it's easier to follow along with a video instead of just following written instructions.
[22:23] <F014> I concur , gladly.
[22:24] <F014> Can I say that I have spoken to you , when I raise my points at my/the weekly meeting with Jono ?  ..
[22:24] <F014> I'm sure he'd listen...
[22:25] <F014> as he made the suggestion himself , but has forgotten to follow this up                .
[22:25] <godbyk> About creating a tutorial/training video for getting started with the manual?  Sure.
[22:25] <F014> OK .. Are you the lead dev. for the manual side of things , then ?
[22:26] <godbyk> Sure, you could call me that. :)
[22:26]  * F014 smiles.
[22:28] <F014> I shall put it in an email asap.  and follow it up on Wednesday / Thursday when he does his weekly broadcast .. from the West Coast, then.
[22:28] <godbyk> Sounds good. Let me know how it goes.
[22:29] <F014> Will do . It's been a pleasure chatting to you , godbyk .
[22:29] <godbyk> Nice chatting with you, too, F014.
[22:30] <F014> Also, nice to see some action in the logs, too.
[22:30] <godbyk> Yeah, it gets pretty quiet around here sometimes. :)
[22:31]  * F014 gets disappeared. o/