[02:43] <TheLordOfTime> if there's a bug in the apt manpage, does the Doc team handle fixing it, or should the person file a bug against the `apt` package and report the manpage issue?
[02:44] <TheLordOfTime> just curious, it's a question that popped up on Ask Ubuntu and i'm curious what would be preferred.
[17:14] <pleia2> bah, sorry for top-posting on the list, my brain is in work mode (and work people top post)
[17:15] <pleia2> email is hard :)
[17:15] <godbyk> pleia2: I'll forgive you... this time.
[17:15] <pleia2> hehe
[17:16] <pleia2> it's been a long wek
[17:16] <pleia2> week too
[17:16] <pleia2> weeeeeeeeek
[17:16] <pleia2> ^^ long
[17:16] <godbyk> I hear ya. It's been a long week here, too.
[17:16] <godbyk> I'll be out of town this next week at a conference (in San Diego).
[17:16] <godbyk> So I won't get much done then either.
[17:17] <pleia2> ooh, have fun
[17:18] <godbyk> I'm hoping it'll be fun. I generally enjoy conferences. If nothing else, it's a change of scenery. :)
[17:18] <pleia2> san diego should be nice this time of year
[17:19] <godbyk> You're in San Francisco, right?
[17:19] <pleia2> yep
[17:19] <pleia2> far away from san diego :)
[17:20] <godbyk> Cool. I had a conference in SF a few years ago that was a lot of fun. I enjoyed SF.  I haven't been to San Diego before.
[17:20] <pleia2> SF is my favorite place
[17:20] <pleia2> I've been to SD once, last year for a conference in December
[17:21] <pleia2> stayed a couple days longer to go to the zoo and wild animal park
[17:21] <godbyk> That sounds fun.
[17:21] <pleia2> it was amazing :)
[17:21] <godbyk> I have a conference in Orlando in December.
[17:21] <pleia2> I did disney during my last orlando conference
[17:21] <godbyk> It'll be a nice reprieve from the Iowa winter. :)
[17:22] <pleia2> see, when someone is paying for my flight, I go all out with add-on vacations :)
[17:22] <godbyk> I don't blame you! I'd take advantage of that, too, if I had the time.
[17:22]  * pleia2 nods
[17:22] <pleia2> time certainly can be an issue
[17:23] <pleia2> heading to the Sierra Nevada mountains this weekend for my birthday \o/
[17:23] <pleia2> driving up tonight
[17:23] <godbyk> Hopefully once I finish grad school, I'll have more time on my hands. :)
[17:23] <godbyk> Oh, well, happy birthday!
[17:23] <godbyk> My birthday was earlier this week.
[17:23] <pleia2> the plan had been hiking, but I'm on the tail end of a sprained ankle, so I think the plan now is fireplace and pool :)
[17:23] <pleia2> thanks, and happy birthday to you too!
[17:24] <pleia2> most popular time of year for birthdays
[17:24] <godbyk> Both plans sound great.
[17:24] <godbyk> Yeah, I can't imagine why that is. ;-)
[17:24] <pleia2> agreed, no disappointment here with change of plans
[17:24] <pleia2> hehe
[17:24] <godbyk> A couple of my siblings have birthdays this week, too.  Sept. 23, 25, and 26.
[17:25] <pleia2> hah
[17:25] <pleia2> nice planning, get all the kiddo birthdays done with at the same time ;)
[17:25] <godbyk> I have a young cousin (he's 5 now I think?) who shares my birthday. Last year at his party, we had a bit of a disagreement over who's birthday it was. :)
[17:25] <pleia2> hehe
[17:29] <godbyk> Something I'd like to pick your brain on sometime (probably after Ubuntu 13.10 is released) is how the docs team can work more closely with the designers and developers.
[17:29] <godbyk> I'd like the designers and developers to start alerting the docs team when they make changes that are likely to affect the docs.
[17:29] <godbyk> Or at least find a better way to keep track of changes.
[17:30] <godbyk> Having to review all the docs at each release is quite time-consuming and a nearly impossible task.
[17:31] <pleia2> yeah, I know bkerensa tried to do some of that this cycle for new features by pinging them about it but they were somewhat unresponsive
[17:31] <pleia2> need to figure out a better strategy I think
[17:31] <godbyk> Yeah. He was trying to sort out what should appear on the 'what's new' page, I think.
[17:32]  * pleia2 nods
[17:32] <godbyk> I'm hoping that we can coerce some people involved in key projects (e.g., Unity) to help keep us informed.
[17:33] <godbyk> Or figure out which mailing lists and IRC channels we should be eavesdropping on.
[17:34] <pleia2> yeah, that would be good
[17:35] <godbyk> The manual project has the same issue.
[17:36] <godbyk> On the plus side, I haven't noticed and freeze exception requests yet. So that's good.
[17:38] <pleia2> yeah :)
[17:54] <bkerensa> godbyk: The developers are not going to do that
[17:54] <bkerensa> I am a dev
[17:54] <bkerensa> and there are lots of others
[17:55] <bkerensa> and then there are Canonical devs and there is just no way with the amount of work that full time developers do that they can notify the doc team
[17:55] <godbyk> bkerensa: Do you have any other ideas of how the docs team can more easily keep up with changes?
[17:56] <godbyk> Are there any pertinent mailing lists of IRC channels that we should attend to?
[17:56] <bkerensa> godbyk: The ideal situation would be for someone from Jono's team or the Desktop Team to provide a summary of things they plan in the cycle
[17:56] <bkerensa> and then maybe a final summary just before freeze in case things are rushed in
[17:56] <godbyk> bkerensa: Yes, that would be a great help.
[17:56] <bkerensa> godbyk: sure ubuntu-devel, ubuntu-desktop,  releasename-changes
[17:57] <bkerensa> all good mailing lists to watch
[17:57] <godbyk> Currently, we're stuck reading each page of documentation and running through the procedures on that page to see if they still hold true in the newer version of Ubuntu. And that's quite time-consuming.
[17:57] <bkerensa> sure
[17:57] <bkerensa> and also another issue is Canonical carries deltas in some Gnome apps
[17:57] <bkerensa> they have customized some of them
[17:57] <bkerensa> so
[17:57] <bkerensa> when we import GNOME doc
[17:58] <bkerensa> features in GNOME may not exist in Ubuntu
[17:58] <bkerensa> and vice versa
[17:58] <bkerensa> some level of fragmentation
[17:58] <bkerensa> and I believe the gap will grow as Canonical continues to bake features they think are important to the end user
[17:58] <bkerensa> I know there was plans at one point to revamp network-manager
[17:59] <godbyk> Yeah, I've noticed that.
[17:59] <bkerensa> this is not unique to just GNOME
[17:59] <godbyk> What's the best way to discover those deltas?
[17:59] <bkerensa> Canonical also ships a non-Vanilla Firefox and Chromium by baking in stuff
[17:59] <bkerensa> godbyk: you have to just be a daily user of the development release
[17:59] <bkerensa> and notice changes
[18:00] <bkerensa> try to monitor the mailing lists I suppose
[18:00] <bkerensa> I think next cycle of doc will be a significant opportunity to get things even fresher then this release
[18:02] <godbyk> bkerensa: I agree. That's why I'd like to try to get these things in place so we don't have all these changes fall through the cracks.
[18:02] <bkerensa> godbyk: I think we just need to consider making a internal workflow for doc
[18:02] <bkerensa> regular health checks of pages
[18:02] <bkerensa> on certain dates and a todo list
[18:02] <godbyk> bkerensa: Agreed.
[18:02] <bkerensa> godbyk: I did tell you I plan to continue contributing to doc right?
[18:02] <godbyk> bkerensa: For example, track the upstream GNOME docs more closely so we're dealing with smaller deltas.
[18:03] <bkerensa> I guess pleia2 had not originally been clear on that but I do plan on staying at least another full cycle
[18:03] <godbyk> bkerensa: I wasn't sure. I knew you were stepping back from a lot of your other Ubuntu work, but wasn't sure if you were sticking around for docs.
[18:03] <bkerensa> yeah
[18:03] <godbyk> bkerensa: I'm glad to hear it, though!
[18:03] <bkerensa> I wanted to seem that I would be mostly unavailable as a go to person
[18:03] <bkerensa> I have too much on my plate right now to be a go to person ;)
[18:04] <godbyk> bkerensa: I also want to make sure we update our internal documentation. I think a lot of procedures are underdocumented or out of date.
[18:04] <bkerensa> godbyk: indeed we should plan to meet maybe in about two weeks
[18:04] <bkerensa> godbyk: I would like to get regular meetings back
[18:04] <pleia2> ++
[18:04] <godbyk> bkerensa: Regular meetings definitely help keep everyone on track.
[18:05] <godbyk> We discovered that with the manual team, too.
[18:05] <bkerensa> But like I said I cannot always drive them
[18:05] <bkerensa> other people need to step up and lead too
[18:05] <bkerensa> :)
[18:05] <godbyk> bkerensa: No problem. :)
[18:05] <bkerensa> maybe we could plan a certain day every month?
[18:05] <godbyk> Monthly meetings seem doable.
[18:06] <bkerensa> godbyk: Maybe you could e-mail the list and ask folks what day and time of the week usually works best for everyone when iit comes to availability?
[18:06] <bkerensa> and then we can just make it so
[18:06] <godbyk> bkerensa: Yeah, I'll try to get it set up.
[18:06] <bkerensa> cool
[18:06] <bkerensa> thanks for that
[18:06] <godbyk> We should try to have a meeting not long after Ubuntu 13.10 is released.
[18:07] <bkerensa> godbyk: your work has been amazing
[18:07] <bkerensa> jono: send this guy some swag ^
[18:07] <pleia2> godbyk rocks!
[18:07] <bkerensa> :P
[18:07] <godbyk> That'll give us a chance to assess how our work during the Saucy cycle went, what we could do better, etc. before everyone forgets.
[18:07] <pleia2> yeah
[18:07] <bkerensa> exactly
[18:07] <bkerensa> we could do a SWOT
[18:07] <godbyk> Then we can also work on outlining what we'd like to accomplish for 14.04.
[18:07]  * godbyk things bkerensa has taken too many management courses. ;-)
[18:07] <bkerensa> I have
[18:07] <bkerensa> :)
[18:07] <pleia2> lol
[18:08] <godbyk> But really, it is a good way to assess things.
[18:08] <pleia2> I don't even know what a SWOT is
[18:08]  * pleia2 googled
[18:08] <bkerensa> pleia2: you should have come to the Moz office
[18:08] <godbyk> strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats.
[18:08] <bkerensa> they were filling my mind with SWOT
[18:08] <pleia2> hehe
[18:08] <bkerensa> and "Team Building Excercises"
[18:08] <bkerensa> I feel like it was a Tony Robbins seminar
[18:08]  * godbyk has a degree in technology management, though he tries not to let people know that. ;-)
[18:09] <pleia2> bkerensa: hahah
[18:09] <pleia2> I am surprisingly productive given my relative lack of formal education about anything
[18:09] <pleia2> imagine if I was trained, I'd be killing it :)
[18:09] <godbyk> pleia2: I'm not sure said formal education is worth much. :)
[18:10] <godbyk> Especially with tech stuff.. it changes so fast that by the time they create a course about it, it's out of date.
[18:10] <bkerensa> pleia2: http://cdn.benjaminkerensa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/DSC_1829.jpg
[18:10] <bkerensa> thats Whoosh
[18:10] <bkerensa> http://improvencyclopedia.org/games/Whoosh.html
[18:10] <belkinsa> pleia2: Thanks for fixing the header on Ubuntu wiki home page.
[18:10] <bkerensa> well
[18:10] <bkerensa> Whoosh + T-Rex
[18:10] <bkerensa> :)
[18:11] <pleia2> belkinsa: I top-posted on that thread, my bad :) was in work mode and everyone at work uses outlook and top posts
[18:11] <belkinsa> Heh, it's cool.
[18:11] <pleia2> good golly, bkerensa and belkinsa in channel at once, my brain asplode
[18:11] <belkinsa> Yup.
[18:11] <belkinsa> :)
[18:12] <belkinsa> (I didn't even  notice that it was top-posted)
[18:12] <bkerensa> pleia2: lucky bkero is not here :)
[18:12] <pleia2> hehe
[18:12] <bkerensa> Benjamin Kero my arch open source nemesis
[18:12] <pleia2> plars is fun for me in -release
[18:13] <pleia2> I was once in a channel with a pleiades, that was also fun
[18:13] <pleia2> I have quite the fondness for that constellation
[18:14] <godbyk> And it's just a cool name.
[18:14] <pleia2> yeah :)
[18:15] <belkinsa> I'm off, see ya all.