[11:52] <elfy> Bug 1231978 
[11:52] <elfy> that's an annoyance 
[11:55] <brainwash> pcmanfm is also affected according to the bug reporter
[11:56] <brainwash> time to boot my test machine..
[12:22] <ochosi> elfy: can't confirm that on my install
[12:23] <ochosi> browsing trash seems fine here
[12:29] <brainwash> ochosi: default packages including gvfs?
[12:29] <brainwash> but wait, would the trash even exist without the gvfs backend.. :D
[12:32] <brainwash> ochosi: xfce4-appfinder starts delayed due to the known dbus timeout, still don't know why it started to behave like this out of nowhere
[12:44] <ochosi> brainwash: yeah, me neither. quite odd. wondering whether other 13.10 users will confirm it
[12:49] <GridCube> confirm what?
[12:50] <GridCube> i have a vbox to test if you need 
[12:53] <ochosi> delay when starting up appfinder
[12:56] <GridCube> thats the alt-f2 thingy right?
[12:56] <elfy> going to do a new vm now - will check the thunar and appfinders with that too
[12:57] <brainwash> ochosi: it did start normally after installing Xubuntu daily, then few days later after bloating the system with almost every DE the appfinder takes some time to actually start (even on a fresh boot)
[12:57] <brainwash> alt+f2 or via xfce4-appfinder
[12:58] <brainwash> elfy: is the thunar trash issue reproducible after the first lock/crash?
[12:59] <GridCube> i don't see any delay in xfrun4
[13:00] <elfy> mmm so you can't delete things you create in a live session then 
[13:01] <elfy> brainwash: yep - it is reproducible 
[13:02] <elfy> and now ubiquity crashes
[13:02] <brainwash> ubuntu lost its stability...
[13:04]  * elfy too
[13:05] <brainwash> ochosi: so I noticed that the transition from the greeter screen to the actual desktop isn't smooth when compositing is enabled (default), it's like this: greeter background -> grey background caused by the compositor -> then xfdesktop starts and sets the desktop wallpaper
[13:06] <elfy> mmm - so odd behaviour with thunar in live session made ubiquity have a paddy
[13:06] <elfy> reboot and it's ok
[13:06] <brainwash> ochosi: known issue I guess, but it should be addressed
[13:07] <brainwash> elfy: can you test pcmanfm also?
[13:07] <elfy> why would I do that? 
[13:08] <brainwash> so we can add it to the list of affected packages
[13:08] <brainwash> and even gvfs
[13:08] <elfy> mmm - well I'm actually only interested in default xubuntu packages 
[13:08] <brainwash> gvfs is a default package
[13:09] <brainwash> and it's responsible for the trash interaction
[13:10] <elfy> won't let me delete to trash - lets me completely deletee
[13:11] <elfy> rebooting it 
[13:11] <brainwash> the gvfs packages have been updated just very recently 2013-09-27 
[13:12] <brainwash> "New upstream bug fix release."
[13:13] <brainwash> so you might need to apply updates before testing the issue
[13:15] <elfy> locally it's up to date
[13:16] <elfy> the iso I booted from for vm is today's
[13:20] <brainwash> ok
[13:26] <elfy> well all the errors at least tell me the same thing :)
[13:30] <elfy> brainwash: so - after thunar has failed to do it's thing and creating an empty file with pcmanfm
[13:31] <elfy> trying to start install/delete said file/open a screenshot all gets this error - just with different window titlebars 
[13:31] <elfy> http://imagebin.org/272188
[13:33] <brainwash> :/
[13:34] <brainwash> well, I can confirm that thunar locks
[13:36] <elfy> won't even let me add the screenshots to the bug report in f/fox either lol 
[13:39] <elfy> bug 1232453
[13:40] <elfy> ochosi: however before all that went on - appfinder was working fine and quickly from either AltF2 or panel
[13:55] <elfy> back later
[13:55] <elfy> hi TheDrums 
[13:55] <elfy> ToZ even 
[13:56] <ToZ> hi elfy 
[15:04] <baizon> ok, all bugs fixed :)
[18:54] <brainwash> bug 1231978 needs to be resolved asap
[21:03] <ochosi> brainwash: not that easy to address the transition to desktop, possibly it'd have to be some kind of "effect" like blending over that gives everything time to load. or a patch in the session-manager to only display stuff as soon as everything is loaded (could also look weird, going from black to everything...)
[21:06] <brainwash> ochosi: maybe just setting the root background after login (before everything loads) could work
[21:06] <ochosi> yeah, so greeter > black screen > desktop?
[21:06] <brainwash> use the user background
[21:07] <ochosi> that means loading xfdesktop
[21:07] <ochosi> otherwise it's a bit of a duplication imo
[21:07] <ochosi> xfdesktop should be lean enough to load reasonably fast
[21:08] <brainwash> yes, it is, but xfdesktop starts after everything else (it looks like it does)
[21:08] <brainwash> I'll just file a bug report
[21:08] <ochosi> then that should be addressed in the session-manager imo
[21:08] <brainwash> and we will see
[21:09] <brainwash> this thunar/xfdesktop/pcmanfm trash issue is bothering me
[21:09] <ochosi> couldn't reproduce it
[21:09] <ochosi> maybe i'm missing some updates..?
[21:09] <ochosi> it started to appear very recently only, right?
[21:10] <brainwash> bug report is just 1 day old
[21:10] <brainwash> and there was a gvfs update too
[21:10] <ochosi> ok i'll monitor my incoming updates
[21:10] <brainwash> nautilus/nemo are not affected
[21:10] <ochosi> well it's *very* possible that it's gvfs related if it doesn't just affect thunar
[21:11] <ochosi> :/
[21:11] <Unit193> apt-listchanges?
[21:11] <pjotr> I just installed Xubuntu Saucy beta 2. What I really missed was Gparted in the live session. Can Gparted be added again?
[21:11] <brainwash> maybe it something different, the window locks -> no more interaction other then window manager stuff is possible
[21:11] <ochosi> the changelog says "* New upstream bug fix release."
[21:11] <ochosi> fun
[21:12] <brainwash> BUT it still displays changes to the trash folder if you use a second instance of thunar and delete some more files
[21:14] <brainwash> pjotr: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/saucy/beta-2/xubuntu-13.10-beta2-desktop-amd64.manifest
[21:14] <brainwash> gparted0.16.1-1
[21:15] <brainwash> so it should be there, technically
[21:15] <pjotr> brainwash: well, I couldn't find it....
[21:15] <ochosi> it's in the settings-manager
[21:15] <brainwash> settings manager?
[21:15] <brainwash> or via alt+F2
[21:16] <brainwash> ochosi: and I noticed, that since the slowness of appfinder started xfseetingsd is also acting strange
[21:17] <brainwash> not reacting to key presses (keyboard shortcuts) or theme changes
[21:17] <pjotr> OK, I'll check settings manager. However: "system" or even "accessories" seems a more logical place in the menu
[21:17] <ochosi> pjotr: yep, iirc there was a bugreport for that
[21:19] <pjotr> brb
[21:19] <brainwash> ochosi: so try to delete a file, maybe two, the right-click on the trash icon and empty it
[21:20] <ochosi> guess i
[21:20] <ochosi> 'd have to restart
[21:20] <ochosi> can do that after finishing the wayland 1.3 presentation
[21:20] <brainwash> I skipped most of the presentation
[21:20] <brainwash> (boring)
[21:21] <ochosi> yeah, i've seen a few of those already
[21:25] <brainwash> so the gvfs "bug fix" update is most likely the culprit
[21:27] <pjotr> brainwash: Gparted was in Settings Manager allright.... thanks for pointing it out
[21:28] <pjotr> nevertheless: can you help moving it to System or Accessories? Much more intuitive locations.
[21:30] <brainwash> gnome disks utility also shows up in the settings manager
[21:30] <brainwash> many system apps actually do
[21:31] <pjotr> not a very fortunate design decision, in my opinion....
[21:32] <brainwash> well, you should consider filing a bug report
[21:32] <Unit193> That's by design, if you look at the excludes in /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/menus/xfce-applications.menu
[21:32] <Unit193> Was changed a little back.
[21:34] <ochosi> k, i'll reboot now and then we'll see about the thunar trash bug
[21:34] <ochosi> brb
[21:35] <pjotr> Unit193: upstream at xfce or downstream at xubuntu?
[21:35] <Unit193> Xubuntu.
[21:36] <ochosi> brainwash: hmpf, confirmed :/
[21:36] <ochosi> brainwash: did you check the logs already?
[21:37] <brainwash> uhm, yea
[21:37] <ochosi> which ones so far?
[21:37] <brainwash> don't want to boot my test machine now
[21:37] <brainwash> ~/.cache/upstart
[21:37] <brainwash> the xfce session one
[21:38] <brainwash> uhm, we have to confront pitti with this issue :D
[21:38] <ochosi> well, you go ahead
[21:38] <ochosi> you were already successful in getting poettering on the red telephone :)
[21:39] <ochosi> hm, pitti has been away for more than a day
[21:39] <ochosi> so maybe subscribe him to the bugreport?
[21:39] <pjotr> I noticed during install of beta 2, that the Xubuntu ubiquity slideshow didn't use my recently updated Dutch translations. Will this be remedied before final release?
[21:40] <brainwash> ochosi: yes, and add a comment about your findings
[21:40] <brainwash> bug 1231978
[21:43] <ochosi> can't delete a file
[21:43] <ochosi> :/
[21:43] <ochosi> well and i can't downgrade gvfs anymore
[21:43] <brainwash> commandline and navigate to ~/.local/share/Trash/
[21:44] <ochosi> yeah sure
[21:44] <ochosi> btw, why pitti? did he upload that version of gfvs?
[21:44] <brainwash> between, does subscribing the package maintainer help?
[21:44] <ochosi> yeah, it can't hurt
[21:45] <ochosi> they might receive the bugmail anyway though
[21:45] <ochosi> as soon as a new bug is reported
[21:45] <ochosi> but giving this one some extra attention might be good
[21:45] <brainwash> I guess he is one of the package maintainers
[21:45] <brainwash> hehe :)
[21:49] <brainwash> ochosi: did you already check the apt cache for the previous gvfs packages?
[21:49] <brainwash> in case you want to reinstall them
[21:52] <ochosi> apt-cache madison only gives me the faulty version
[21:52] <ochosi> which sucks a bit cause i'd love to be able to downgrade to confirm once and for all that it's gvfs's fault
[21:52] <ochosi> (even though i'm rather convinced already)
[21:52] <Unit193> And in /var/cache/apt/archives/ ?
[21:53] <ochosi> true, there it is...
[21:53] <ochosi> thanks Unit193 
[21:54] <Unit193> Unless you autoclean a lot. >_>
[21:54] <ochosi> brb
[21:56] <ochosi> ok, confirmed that it's the gvfs upgrade
[21:56] <brainwash> yes, I meant apt's cache location
[21:57] <Unit193> brainwash: I read you right. :)
[21:58] <brainwash> well, now we simply wait for a fix
[21:58] <ochosi> well, if he had said "have you already checked cache apt"... :}
[21:59] <ochosi> yeah i guess
[21:59] <ochosi> it's a bit out of our hands now
[21:59] <Unit193> I think enough is breaking for saucy very late. :/
[22:02] <ochosi> i agree, although it's a bit "business as usual" already
[22:02] <ochosi> i've seen enough releases where i thought a few weeks prior to the release "i'll definitely recommend my friends not to upgrade"
[22:02] <ochosi> and then (mostly) things turned out fine
[22:02] <ochosi> (that is not to say that this doesn't seriously suck as a general routine)
[22:03] <brainwash> it's not that bad currently
[22:03] <brainwash> xfce is still at 4.10-ish
[22:03] <brainwash> but this gtk3 indicator mess... oh boy
[22:04] <Unit193> I'm actually waiting to see what happens there before I upgrade, it's pretty much what's holding me back.
[22:06]  * skellat is being cowardly and has his laptop stuck on the LTS for now
[22:08] <Unit193> Well, I think it's going to complain if I try to upgrade with the held packages from precise again. :P
[22:13] <bluesabre> alrighty, I might actually be able to be productive now
[22:13] <Unit193> Woo! \o/
[22:14] <bluesabre> :D
[22:15] <ochosi> ahoi bluesabre 
[22:16] <bluesabre> hey ochosi
[22:19]  * bluesabre wonders what to work on first
[22:22] <ochosi> hard to say :)
[22:22] <ochosi> what's on your agenda?
[22:22] <bluesabre> I think I might add to your plugin failure detection
[22:23] <bluesabre> which does work, so kudos
[22:23] <ochosi> nice
[22:23] <ochosi> well it's good that it works, but it doesn't catch all the calls i think
[22:24] <ochosi> it could/should be more thorough, although it only seems relevant with the current (packaging?) issue
[22:24] <bluesabre> yeah
[22:24] <bluesabre> I might hack on the packaging tonight/tomorrow and see if I can figure anything out
[22:24] <ochosi> packaging means mostly panel+indicators, right?
[22:24] <bluesabre> that too
[22:25] <ochosi> ah, you meant parole packaging
[22:27] <ochosi> i think i could start on a todo-list for the greeter
[22:27] <ochosi> could you link me to your dokuwiki again?
[22:27] <bluesabre> smdavis.us/doku
[22:27] <bluesabre> that would be a good idea
[22:34] <ochosi> here it goes: V
[22:34] <ochosi> http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=greeter-roadmap
[22:34] <ochosi> brainwash: if you wanna take a look ^
[22:34] <ochosi> (you can also add stuff if you want or fix stuff from the list ;)
[22:35] <brainwash> bookmarked
[22:39]  * bluesabre considers making a bug markup button for his wiki
[22:39] <bluesabre> s/button/plugin