/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/09/29/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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AlanBell#startmeeting IRC team19:59
meetingologyMeeting started Sun Sep 29 19:59:43 2013 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.19:59
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired19:59
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic:
TheLordOfTimeo/19:59
phunyguyo/19:59
AlanBellhi all, thanks for popping along, here is the agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda20:00
topylio/20:00
IdleOneo/20:01
Pici20:01
Picioops, silly autocomplete20:01
topyli:)20:01
AlanBellheh, ok, so lets get started20:02
AlanBell#topic Review last meetings action items20:02
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AlanBellhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/IRCC/20130825 is the last minutes, and I had an action20:02
AlanBellwhich was to look into cloaks, and here is the results . . .20:02
AlanBellhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/6172733/20:02
AlanBellso that is people who are in the list of people we think we gave a cloak to, but who are not in ubuntumembers any more20:03
Picihmm20:03
AlanBelland I tweaked the script a bit to output IRC nicks as well as launchpad names20:03
AlanBellthere are 35 of them I think20:04
TheLordOfTime36 if i'm counting right.20:04
AlanBellsome may not be using the cloak now, some may have forgotten to press the renew button, some might need an unaffiliated cloak20:04
AlanBellyeah, could be 36, there were about that and I dealt with one, maybe there were 37 initially20:05
PiciThere are at least one or two on there that look like they might have forgotten to renew20:05
AlanBellso, from that list does anything leap out at people as hugely wrong, or some kind of issue we should be careful with?20:06
Piciwell, soren is on there, and I'm pretty sure hes still active.20:06
IdleOnesoren just expired this past week20:06
IdleOneprobably busy and forgot to click the button20:06
Piciuh, from the team?20:06
IdleOneyeah20:07
IdleOnethis week or last. I remember seeing the email20:07
PiciI almost thought you were using the other meaning of expired there for a second.20:07
PiciHospital work is rubbing off of me :/20:07
phunyguyhe is in here, but idle.20:07
AlanBell:)20:07
IdleOnePici: I would not have been so emotionless about it :)20:08
AlanBellthat is actually one reason I am throwing the list up here for review before trying to contact them individually20:08
IdleOneAlanBell: there is no way for you to get dates of when they membersips expired?20:08
IdleOnememberships*20:09
PiciThere should be, its just not being output.20:09
AlanBellhmm, no, not really (but you could)20:09
AlanBellI can't see expired memberships in ~ubuntumembers20:09
Myrttiwell, you can take Andre from the list of people to be contacted...20:09
IdleOneI think anyone who has been expired for 30+ days you could just go ahead and remove from the team. they can always be re-added later if/when they ask.20:09
Myrttin'est pas20:09
AlanBellhowever, I don't think it matters too much20:10
PiciMyrtti: ah. yes :(20:10
AlanBellit isn't about removing them from the team, it is removing the cloak20:10
IdleOneright20:10
AlanBelland we tend to ask if they want an unaffiliated one instead20:10
PiciMyrtti: thanks for catching that. :(20:10
MyrttiPici: well, since you mentioned the other meaning for "expired"...20:11
Piciyea. .. :/20:11
topyli:(20:11
phunyguy:(20:12
AlanBell:( indeed20:12
IdleOneWell this escalated quickly :(20:12
IdleOnealright, so yeah, contact people and ask if they want to renew membership or change cloak20:12
funkyHatHi people, sorry I'm late20:13
AlanBellso, we will process the list, contacting and removing cloaks as we go, and this is exactly why I wanted to wave the list about first for review20:13
AlanBellok, moving on20:13
topylihi funkyHat20:13
AlanBell#topic Open items in the IRCC tracker20:13
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IdleOnehello funkyHat20:14
AlanBellnow here we have screwed up slightly, there were a couple of very stale items in the tracker, it stopped emailing us when we did that silly thing where it was constantly raising tickets for every email that happened20:14
AlanBellI think the items that are there are no longer relevant but we need to be better at using the tracker if we are going to have it :/20:15
Piciagreed20:15
PiciWe should be more dilligent about manually putting items in there too.20:15
PriceyItems? I only see one. #887544 ?20:16
PiciI think we're talking about the private tracker.20:17
AlanBelldifferent tracker20:17
PriceySneaky.20:17
TheLordOfTimeheh20:17
topyliPricey: this is our secret tracker where we talk about you behind your back20:17
IdleOneunder your nose20:17
AlanBellyeah, it is an appeals tracker of sorts, private because it relates to specific people and wasn't considered suitable for launchpad bug process20:18
AlanBelllvmer and itoast are the nicks concerned in the issues20:19
AlanBelllvmer wasn't actually banned20:19
Piciif you don't remember them, its because they're stale... very stale.20:20
IdleOneif they concern me in any way just go ahead and drop them.20:21
AlanBellso, we will close them, check the tracker is working correctly and move on I think20:21
Piciheh20:21
IdleOneyou have my permission :)20:21
phunyguymine too...20:21
phunyguy;)20:21
PiciSo whats up next?20:21
AlanBell#topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council20:22
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic: Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
AlanBellnot got any bugs apart from the incomplete one, which is still a bit open20:22
topyliwe have one bug, which might as well be closed WONTFIX. no-one has come up with great ideas20:23
AlanBellI can't close it wontfix20:23
AlanBellopinion will have to do20:24
topylioh yes i'm confusing launchpad with bugzilla20:24
Pricey#887544 reads pretty silly to me. You can't aim to remove all bans within X days...20:24
AlanBellthere is a won't fix status, but I can't use it20:24
TheLordOfTimeAlanBell, bug supervisors for the community project need to set it20:24
TheLordOfTimelimitation of the LP bug tracker system20:25
AlanBellPricey: it was more that we didn't have any statistics on it, but agreed, it isn't a useful metric even if we could measure it20:25
AlanBell#topic Logging and the irclogs.ubuntu.com archive20:25
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic: Logging and the irclogs.ubuntu.com archive
AlanBellSo just to frame this discussion and set expectations a bit, someone raised an issue on the IRC discussions mailing list that they were concerned about conversations that they had in the past being available on the web and indexed by search engines.20:25
AlanBellthat conversation may be viewed here https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2013-September/thread.html20:25
AlanBellWe probably won't be deciding any specific actions today, but this is an opportunity to bring the conversation about IRC into the medium of IRC, and we can perhaps figure out if there are any proposals that are worth further discussion.20:25
AlanBellso, open to the floor, what do people think about this?20:25
TheLordOfTimeMy two-cents on the issue are that the person involved is far too concerned about their own privacy20:25
FuchsPeople are informed that the channel is publically logged20:26
PiciI'm not really sure why IRC logging is a problem when the Forum archives are preserved for posterity as well.20:26
AlanBelloh, also the whole "bug comments on launchpad" bit is out of scope for us20:26
Fuchsthere are lots of places both on the internet and in real life where you can't request that content is removed20:26
PriceyTheLordOfTime: That's not reasonable.20:26
TheLordOfTimeI've been on IRC here for a long while, and as Fuchs pointed out, there's notices that the channel is publicly logged.20:26
Fuchsif they have an issue with that, they shouldn't be on IRC.20:26
TheLordOfTimePricey, that's one of the points I think and you're right it is unreasonable.20:26
PiciI'm curious if the forums have their own policy about content removal.20:26
FuchsThe benefits of that  (people being able to find problems and their solutions via google and similar) are _way_ bigger than the downsides, so I'd say: keep logging as usual20:26
PriceyTheLordOfTime: No, I think you're being unreasonable to say they are "too concerned".20:26
TheLordOfTimePricey, equally unreasonable is the expectation of removal of their own items per request from the logs, and that the logs should be private.20:27
MyrttiI can't remember if I said it already somewhere, but as long as the joins/parts/quits/nicks with hostmasks are removed, it doesn't really matter20:27
TheLordOfTimePricey, then perhaps my wording was bad20:27
PiciMyrtti: I think you did.. somewhere.20:27
PiciI remember reading it at least ;)20:27
TheLordOfTimePricey, regardless, it's generally unreasonable, I think, that the channel's logs should be considered a medium for cyber-stalking per their arguments.20:27
Myrttianyone can use a random char generator to generate a nickname for themselves for each time they use IRC if they're concerned about the privacy of the logs20:27
AlanBellI think we would be prepared to edit the logs in exceptional circumstances (like someone Doxing a minor)20:27
TheLordOfTime(I can say the same about LP, but that's a discussion for elsewhere)20:27
FuchsI am not sure about the english forums, ubuntuusers.de definitely has the  "no, we won't" policy. We've been recently asked to remove content  (change the name of someone in every single posting it was mentioned), which was simply turned down.20:28
AlanBelland yes, we don't log joins/parts20:28
TheLordOfTimeAlanBell, I agree with you there, super exceptional circumstances are different.20:28
PiciAs much as we hate to admit it, there isn't much we could do if someone else wanted to publish their own chat logs of the channel.20:28
TheLordOfTimeAgreed, accordingly, I also believe that there's no expectation of privacy in a publicly-able-to-be-joined IRC channel.20:29
TheLordOfTimeif the channel were +i, and semi-private, that'd be a different story20:29
AlanBellone of the proposals was to put a robots.txt in place to encourage search engines to not index it, what do you think about that?20:29
Fuchsagainst it. As I wrote, the main reason of that _is_ that they are indexed,20:29
phunyguyeasily exploitable.20:29
PriceyAlanBell: I think you covered that well in your mail.20:29
PiciFuchs: +120:29
Fuchsso that people can find conversations, including support, to a given problem20:29
TheLordOfTimeFuchs: +1 here20:30
topyliindexing is why the logs are useful20:30
MyrttiI think it's actually an asset we publish the logs20:30
Myrttiit disincentives someone else publishing them20:30
FlannelEven if we decided to support the robots.txt, we'd need to get the support of *all* channels, including -devel, -meeting, and all the loco teams, because the logs are all together.20:30
topyliMyrtti: that's true also20:30
TheLordOfTimevalid point, Flannel.20:31
AlanBellFlannel: actually no, you can do wildcards in robots.txt20:31
PriceyDoes the ircc even have control over irclogs.ubuntu.com ?20:31
PiciNot directly.20:31
IdleOneHow many thousands of nicks are logged and indexed without issue? I think this topic has already been given way too much attention. I respect the concerns of the individual but I don't think we need to change how things are because of one individual.20:31
AlanBellso a single channel could be excluded, it is a slightly nonstandard syntax but google supports it20:31
TheLordOfTimeI'm going to agree with IdleOne's opinion 100%.  I'm not sure the arguments brought up in the ML by the individual are entirely supported by evidence...20:32
AlanBellPricey: I expect we could arrange for a robots.txt to be put in place or any other changes under discussion if we wanted to do so20:32
FlannelAlanBell: Just because google supports it doesn't mean everyone does.  And, to that point, means that a private mirror/index wouldn't either, so I think robots.txt is an ineffective solution to begin with, someone malicious can easily circumvent it.20:33
phunyguyindeed.  Everything you want to hide, in plain text, in a single file.20:33
PriceyAlanBell: Makes me find this amusing..20:33
topylii for one am greatly amused when i find my embarrassing mailing list and usenet contributions from the 90s when searching for stuff :)20:34
MyrttiI think it's hilarous20:34
Flannelphunyguy: Forget everything you want to hide, just wget all of #ubuntu.txt and grep yourself.  It's trivial.20:34
phunyguyindeed.20:34
phunyguy(I don't really know how the logs are set up, I just know what robots.txt is)20:34
Priceyphunyguy: irclogs.ubuntu.com20:34
PiciSo, unless the CC has a different take on things, I think we're all in a agreement here20:34
AlanBellit takes a while and is rather big (yes, I have wget'd quite a lot of it in the past)20:35
IdleOneyeah, topic closed.20:35
AlanBellyup, ok, thanks very much everyone, lets move on20:35
funkyHatYep20:35
AlanBell#topic Membership applications20:35
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic: Membership applications
AlanBellwe do have an application from phunyguy20:35
* phunyguy flexes20:35
AlanBellhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/phunyguy20:35
AlanBellhttps://launchpad.net/~robtongue20:35
AlanBellso, tell us about yourself phunyguy20:36
phunyguyWell I had been an Ubuntu user for quute a few years, starting in 2007.20:36
phunyguyOnly found IRC a couple years back, and never left.20:36
phunyguy(how in depth do I need to go?)20:37
phunyguyMarried, one kid, Systems Engineer at a local grocery chain...20:37
topyliyour wiki page has the story laid out pretty well20:37
IdleOneIRCC May I ask a question of phunyguy ?20:38
topylisure20:38
IdleOnephunyguy: Why do you want to be an Ubuntu member?20:38
funkyHatFor the shiny certificate, surely20:39
phunyguyIdleOne: because I feel like I am a contributor, and I really like just about everyone in here.  Would make me feel a bit more like I am part of the team.20:39
phunyguy(cheesy?)20:39
Fuchs(yes)20:39
phunyguy(sorry..)20:39
IdleOnelittle bit, but honest.20:39
phunyguyit's the truth though.20:39
phunyguyprobably brings some more respect, also, like me being there means something.20:40
phunyguyI am trying to earn it, and this would help.20:40
IdleOneSo I don't have a vote here but I am +1 for approval. I think phunyguy is an asset to the community, especially in the offtopic channel.20:40
phunyguyAlso I know this doesn't go hand in hand, but I would like to start contributing as a chanop at some point, when I get a little better at catalyzing.20:41
PriceyIdleOne: Is #ubuntu-offtopic really important for Ubuntu Membership through the IRC Team?20:41
AlanBellso, looking at the wiki and launchpad page, I see some contributions to ubuntu in terms of bug comments and suchlike20:42
topyliphunyguy: you chose to apply through the ircc instead of your local loco council. do you feel your contributions are mostly related to irc work?20:42
AlanBellI would like to see some testimonials, I think that area is lacking20:42
phunyguytopyli: yes, 90%20:42
IdleOnePricey: IMHO yes. The channel is not support oriented, but ubuntu isn't all about the tech stuff.20:42
phunyguyI do go into #ubuntu when I can, and help. Have been for a couple years now.20:43
AlanBellphunyguy: are you involved in your loco team at all?20:43
phunyguyAlanBell: no. :( All IRC so far.20:43
phunyguyI can change that...20:43
Fuchs<comment>  I think it's a shame that there aren't any testimonials, I certainly would have written one. I agree with IdleOne on the -offtopic point, and I'd support phunyguys application </comment>20:44
PiciIt looks like there are at least a few people here that would be willing to provide testimonials.20:44
IdleOnePricey: the offtopic channel needs more good people who care about the CoC and the guidelines to help maintain the community20:44
topylii agree with the importance of -ot. my own membership is mostly due to -ot work :)20:45
IdleOneIF it is necessary I'll copy paste what I said in here onto the wiki page, but I think the fact that I stayed awake for this meeting (usually my nap time) says something20:47
Pricey(Are there even enough IRCC'ers here?)20:48
funkyHatI think so20:48
PriceyWhoops yes sorry, just spotted teh 3rd)20:48
AlanBell#voters AlanBell Pici topyli funkyHat Tm_T20:49
meetingologyCurrent voters: AlanBell Pici Tm_T funkyHat topyli20:49
AlanBell#vote membership application for phunyguy20:49
meetingologyPlease vote on: membership application for phunyguy20:49
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)20:49
Pici+020:49
meetingology+0 received from Pici20:49
AlanBell+0 generally positive impression, but come back with testimonials, and maybe apply to be an op20:49
meetingology+0 generally positive impression, but come back with testimonials, and maybe apply to be an op received from AlanBell20:49
PriceyGrepping my logs I'm not sure I'd call #ubuntu activity consistent.20:50
PiciI echo  what AlanBell said.  I can't really give an approval with no testimonials.20:50
topyli-1 but definitely come back20:50
meetingology-1 but definitely come back received from topyli20:50
PiciMembership isn't a prerequesite for operator-ship (-hood?, thing?)20:51
phunyguyI know.... Maybe I should do that first then.20:51
funkyHat+0 likewise, but please do come back, and I agree that you should apply to be an op.20:51
meetingology+0 likewise, but please do come back, and I agree that you should apply to be an op. received from funkyHat20:51
AlanBell#endvote20:52
meetingologyVoting ended on: membership application for phunyguy20:52
meetingologyVotes for:0 Votes against:1 Abstentions:320:52
meetingologyMotion denied20:52
topyliawww i'm the bad guy20:52
* Pici pats topyli 20:52
phunyguynaah, it's all good.  Thanks for the opportunity20:52
AlanBellso not right now, phunyguy, sorry about that, but please do consider joining the operator team, you don't need to be an Ubuntu member to do that20:52
AlanBellphunyguy: https://launchpad.net/~irc-ubuntu-offtopic-ops20:52
AlanBellor one of the other channels20:52
phunyguyI will do that.20:52
PiciMany of us didn't become members until after being ops.20:52
PiciLike Myrtti and I.20:53
IdleOnesame here20:53
Piciand that IdleOne character.20:53
IdleOneI was an op first20:53
* phunyguy has never been an op anywhere20:53
IdleOnegood, you don't have bad habits from other places20:53
AlanBell:)20:53
AlanBellok, lets move on20:53
Myrttilet me send you a questionnaire, it assesses how mental case you are20:54
IdleOneclick that link.20:54
IdleOnelol20:54
Pici;)20:54
funkyHathehehe20:54
AlanBell#topic Any Other Business20:54
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC team Meeting | Current topic: Any Other Business
Myrttiif you are, your qualifications match20:54
phunyguydid, reading.20:54
AlanBellany other things people want to discuss at this time?20:54
TheLordOfTimeone tiny thing, just a comment really20:54
Picisure20:54
TheLordOfTimeAlanBell, i'd like to give ikonia a public congrats on coordinating with the ZNC service I provide, in making sure that users who abuse the services in the Ubuntu channels are reported accordingly20:55
AlanBell\o/20:55
TheLordOfTimei know it's a tiny thing but ikonia's a very good "role model" of what a good channel op is.  :)20:55
IdleOneyay for good processes and following them20:55
AlanBellyeah, I noticed some of that coordination going on20:55
Piciyay20:56
topyligreat20:56
TheLordOfTimejust wanted that to be on the public records.  :)20:56
AlanBelland conversly, it is great to have someone who provides a ZNC service working well with our team too20:56
TheLordOfTimeAlanBell, that's what ikonia said!  :D20:56
PiciAgreed.20:56
IdleOnekinda doesn't have a choice seeing how TheLordOfTime is an ubuntu member :P20:56
AlanBell:)20:57
AlanBellok, any other other busines?20:57
IdleOnebut we appreciate the service and the help you give us when we have issues20:57
PiciI have nothing.20:57
TheLordOfTimethanks, IdleOne :)20:57
phunyguyThanks everyone.20:57
AlanBell#endmeeting20:57
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Sun Sep 29 20:57:52 2013 UTC.20:57
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-09-29-19.59.moin.txt20:57
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-09-29-19.59.html20:57
AlanBellthanks all20:57
funkyHatThank you20:57
Picithanks everyone20:57
topylithanks!20:58

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