[00:09] <Unit193> "tee redirects only stdout"  that's why  2>&1 | tee
[00:32] <Unit193> xnox: Thanks.
[00:32] <Unit193> Now I'm scared to ask. :P
[02:34] <skellat> Okay, LP #1231978 bothers me greatly on my clean install of the daily.  We need to figure that one out soon.
[09:42] <brainwash> Unit193: yes, I guess this terminal gtk mneu issue requires some real debugging :(
[09:46] <Noskcaj10> brainwash, Can't you use xterm to help with debugging
[09:47] <brainwash> Noskcaj10: I did, using another terminal emulator to start xfce4-terminal freezes the session
[09:47] <brainwash> (if you trigger the bug)
[09:53] <Noskcaj10> brainwash, Some ideas for debugging: Test debian version, Test the xfce version, test older versions. It looks like it's something else rather than the terminal itself though
[09:54] <brainwash> right, thanks for the ideas :)
[09:56] <Noskcaj10> I've just added myself to the affects list
[09:57] <Noskcaj10> But if you can repeat it in a debian install or with the upstream tarball please file the bug there, it should speed up getting a fix
[10:00] <brainwash> yes, I will
[11:17] <brainwash> wow, first time I see the update notifier applet in saucy
[11:18] <brainwash> does a bug report for all the hidden gtk3 indicators exist?
[11:21] <brainwash> besides, it's almost unbelievable, how often apport gets triggered, it's like every app wants to segfault once in a while
[11:29] <baizon> well, the update notifier isnt showing up for me :(
[11:29] <baizon> not for me
[11:38] <brainwash> it did for me, to tell me that I have an outdated package
[11:38] <brainwash> because I downgraded xfce4-terminal
[16:28] <skellat> Well, looking ahead to the upcoming LTS cycle...this bit of auto-removal news relative to Testing should be interesting: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2013/09/msg00006.html
[16:28] <skellat> Nothing Xfce-related is listed so far
[16:46] <brainwash> regarding bug 1232027 , shouldn't the missing package be included asap?
[19:16] <skellat> micahg: If we're still able to do so, I think we can go ahead and remove pidgin-microblog from the archive since it has been orphaned upstream in Debian.
[19:16] <skellat> I proposed merges to get it out of our seed and Lubuntu's due to this: #712102
[19:16] <skellat> Pardon me, Debian Bug #712102
[19:16] <skellat> And now Debian Bug #724983 says it is orphaned
[19:17] <skellat> It looks like no further action on it is going to happen
[19:17] <skellat> :-(
[21:17] <kristal> Soo gnomers are playing with wayland and kde is getting there... how/when is xfce getting/going wayland?
[21:17] <ochosi> after the gtk3 transition, which is after the 4.12 release
[21:18] <ochosi> so it'll be a while
[21:18] <brainwash> in like 2 years
[21:18] <kristal> Oh my, LXDE is going to beat you.
[21:18] <ochosi> it's not a contest though
[21:19] <knome> no, not by any means
[21:19] <brainwash> feel free to help porting Xfce to gtk3
[21:19] <kristal> It's for feature phallus waving :P
[21:19] <knome> !language | kristal 
[21:19] <kristal> Wow, I didn't get the language warning for that work on a Christian irc.
[21:20] <knome> that's not a contest either.
[21:21] <kristal> Well if it were, you won.  You guys porting the piles of gtk2 stuff to gtk3 or jsut rewriting a lot? I haven't looked into how modular things are.
[21:21] <brainwash> ochosi: new release of gvfs https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gvfs/1.18.1-0ubuntu2
[21:21] <kristal> LXDE guys are RWing into Qt because they're soo tied into their current stuff.
[21:22] <ochosi> brainwash: the changelog doesn't suggest our problem got tackled. but at least now you have a guy to talk to (seb128)
[21:22] <ochosi> kristal: things are really modular in xfce, so you can port component-by-component
[21:23] <kristal> Qt is superior to GTK in some ways, but they way Qt uses C++ is a nightmare,  the custom memory system alone deserves it's own book.
[21:23] <ochosi> and the main libraries already compile against gtk2 and gtk3, so anyone can start hacking on it
[21:23] <brainwash> ochosi: guess I'll inform him in #ubuntu-devel
[21:23] <ochosi> brainwash: yup, good call
[21:24] <ochosi> brainwash: i'm in there, but if you need support, lemme know
[21:24] <kristal> ochosi: I'd play with it but I'm currently playing with SDL for Qt5 and GTK3.
[21:25] <ochosi> kristal: that's a shame, xfce could really use more contributors
[21:25] <kristal> ochosi: If RazorQt and LXDE could join forces, I don't see why XFCE can't eat another project.
[21:26] <kristal> Really bowls down to how stubborn the lead devs to both projects are...
[21:26] <knome> can't eat what project?
[21:26] <kristal> knome: Any project that's gtk2 going gtk3 could simply work with xfce and become an xfce fork.
[21:27] <kristal> LXDE was going to do that but went with RazorQt devs because they decided to go Qt instead of GTK.
[21:27] <ochosi> i don't know of any gtk2 DE going gtk3 tbh
[21:27] <knome> right, but wouldn't that be the same as just the other people help porting xfce to gtk3?
[21:27] <ali1234> can't think of any myself
[21:28] <ali1234> i just heard about gnome-flashback today
[21:28] <ochosi> hmyeah
[21:28] <ochosi> not sure that'll be helpful
[21:28] <ali1234> they say they're going to port metacity to gtk3
[21:28] <knome> i don't think there is anything that is enough like xfce
[21:28] <ali1234> that's just mutter though. seriously, the code is like 99% copy pasted
[21:28] <ochosi> yeah, porting metacity is weird
[21:29] <ochosi> ali1234: btw, have you considered getting your hands dirty on some xfce project yet?
[21:29] <ali1234> like what?
[21:29] <kristal> Just have to post an official message of unity and love, mail DEs that are still active but short on manpower, even if they're not gtk2.
[21:29] <ali1234> i prefer to find bugs and let someone else fix them
[21:29] <ochosi> ali1234: dunno, depends on what you use. ppl use xfce in very different ways
[21:30] <ochosi> hehe, doesn't everyone ;)
[21:30] <ali1234> i use thunar and terminal...?
[21:30] <ali1234> and panel
[21:30] <ali1234> and that's it
[21:30] <kristal> Too bad there's still no official Go packaging standard for Linux, then I could make Go software for FOSS projects...
[21:30] <knome> kristal, i don't know how that would be different from simply gathering more developers/contributors for xfce. am i missing something?
[21:31] <ali1234> i can;t honestly think of any other DEs that haven't already been mentioned except for e17
[21:31] <kristal> knome: Not much different, just having projects hook up as well.
[21:31]  * knome shrugs
[21:31] <knome> i suppose there is a reason why they are different projects to begin with
[21:32] <ali1234> and e17 is a one-man show pretty much
[21:32] <kristal> ROX is gtk2, kinda dead, maybe ask about them.
[21:32] <ochosi> kristal: anyway, if you meet motivated folk it'd be nice if you point them in xfce's direction (git.xfce.org)
[21:32] <ochosi> ali1234: same with xfce though (mostly) atm
[21:32] <kristal> ochosi: I have, but they went KDE instead. :0 
[21:32] <ali1234> i've never heard of ROX before
[21:33] <brainwash> you should head over to #xfce-dev
[21:33] <ochosi> kristal: thing is, usually people work on foss for fun or to scratch an itch, so "hooking up projects" isn't as easy as it sounds
[21:33] <ochosi> the ROX-filemanager?
[21:33] <kristal> ochosi: Ya it depends on the nature of the project.
[21:33] <kristal> ochosi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROX_Desktop
[21:35] <ochosi> yeah, but "hooking up" those two projects wouldn't add any dev-resources
[21:35] <ochosi> and still, people would wanna keep working on the stuff they're interested in
[21:35] <ochosi> and since it's open source, people read each other's sourcecode anyway...
[21:35] <kristal> ochosi: Where I work we basically contribute to another company's code and repackage it as our own... same concept. lol
[21:36] <ochosi> ali1234: you don't use xfwm4?
[21:36] <ali1234> yeah i use that i guess
[21:36] <ochosi> that could use some love...
[21:36] <ali1234> why?
[21:36] <ali1234> show me the bugs
[21:36] <ochosi> :)
[21:37] <brainwash> opengl compositing :)
[21:37] <ali1234> works for me
[21:37] <knome> ehm, probably not the highest priority bug :P
[21:37] <ali1234> much faster than compiz too
[21:38] <ochosi> well, many patches are rotting in bugzilla
[21:38] <ochosi> random example: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10184
[21:38] <ali1234> i don't understand how to use bugzilla
[21:39] <ali1234> it's the worst bug tracker ever :(
[21:39] <ali1234> you see a bug once and can never find it again because the search is useless
[21:39] <brainwash> does anyone run debian testing? we need to confirm bug 1231978
[21:39] <ali1234> why would you need to run debian testing to confirm that?
[21:40] <brainwash> too many questions
[21:40] <kristal> I have that bug in ubuntu 13.10
[21:40] <ochosi> ali1234: then there is a bug in xfwm4/X11 (since 12.10) that you can't use 1px window-borders anymore (it creates weird artifacts on the screen). our workaround was patching the themes. not too nice
[21:40] <ali1234> ah the window borders
[21:40] <ali1234> those need reworking
[21:40] <ochosi> ali1234: before i go into more, it just could use someone to look after
[21:40] <ochosi> ali1234: yeah, stuff like enhanced grab-area for resizing, etc.
[21:40] <ali1234> it should be possible to have 0px window borders and still resize windows
[21:41] <ochosi> exactly
[21:41] <ali1234> kde only got that like a month or two ago :(
[21:41] <ochosi> i'm not saying those are all critical bugs, but there are 200+ bugs in bugzilla for xfwm4
[21:41] <ochosi> some extremely long-standing
[21:42] <ochosi> (many of those are design decisions)
[21:42] <ali1234> how can i see all the bugs affecting xfwm4 in chronological order?
[21:42] <ochosi> but also a lot of more recent ones
[21:42] <ochosi> ali1234: is PM ok? that link is loooong
[21:42] <ali1234> ha
[21:42] <skellat> brainwash: I can confirm that it is not found in Debian Testing on armhf with thunar 1.6.3-1 and gvfs 1.16.3-1+b1 according to apt-cache policy
[21:43] <ali1234> one time someone told me the link for "how to see all bugs you've commented on or edited" - with the warning "don't use this often, it kills the server"
[21:43] <ali1234> and so bugzilla sucks
[21:43] <brainwash> skellat: gvfs 1.18 is causing the trouble
[21:44] <ochosi> ali1234: yeah, agreed to some extent... launchpad is quite awfully slow though and not much better
[21:45] <skellat> brainwash: Well, I've got on armhf what Debian has packaged.  Apparently Ubuntu has its own deltas.  See: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=gvfs
[21:45] <ochosi> ali1234: btw, the link i sent you was sorted by "date when bug was last changed/updated", i can also send you one sorted by when it was opened
[21:45] <kristal> bug 1231978 is a far reaching one... every gtk FM I have is affected.
[21:45] <ali1234> i can sort it by ID
[21:45] <ochosi> true, should be the same :)
[21:46] <brainwash> kristal: nautilus, nemo?
[21:46] <kristal> brainwash: PCManFM, Nemo, Thunar... I'll try some more in a few mins.
[21:46] <brainwash> so Nemo is affected?
[21:46] <kristal> 3 FMs, surely not a coincidence, there's a pretty nasty underlying bug.
[21:47] <kristal> brainwash: Definitely.
[21:47] <brainwash> nautilus and nemo work fine for me
[21:47] <ochosi> anyhoo, i'm off for now
[21:47] <ochosi> bbiab
[21:47] <kristal> brainwash:  With Nemo the FM completely hangs up sometimes, but not 100% of the time like with pcmanfm or thunar
[21:48] <brainwash> ochosi: cya
[21:48] <ochosi> cya brainwash 
[21:48] <brainwash> skellat: want to file a bug report upstream? bugzilla.gnome.org
[21:49] <kristal> brainwash: right click trash in nemo instead of left click, that seems to do the trick
[21:49] <brainwash> kristal: I'll try it
[21:50] <ali1234> i can't reproduce that bug about setting the clock back
[21:52] <brainwash> kristal: negative, nemo does not crash or lock up
[21:52] <kristal> brainwash: Just found an interesting quirk... after you crash and close... the next time you try you can't crash it again until you restart
[21:52] <brainwash> kristal: yes, I can confirm that (I think)
[21:53] <brainwash> maybe there is some randomness involved
[21:53] <kristal> What a bugger of a bug, it's not very consistent.
[21:53] <kristal> I can confirm it's not consistent on any FM, but PCManFM seems to get it the worst.
[21:54] <brainwash> delete some file and hover over the trash icon on the desktop (xfdesktop)
[21:54] <kristal> Nemo the best, Thunar in the middle... kde's fm seems fine so far
[21:54] <kristal> I wonder if fedora 20 has this issue...
[21:55] <brainwash> want to freeze your session? open xterm and start xfce4-terminal, not navigate to Menu Bar > Terminal > Set Encoding
[21:55] <brainwash> s/not/now/
[21:56] <ali1234> i just LOVE it when people CAPITALIZE random words IN bug REPORTS
[21:56] <Noskcaj> brainwash, If you do it xfce4terminal to xfce4-terminal it doesn't freeze the session
[21:56] <brainwash> I know, both instances simply vanish
[21:56] <kristal> me? let me swap back to xfce, i was playing with lxde... in lxde your desktop wallpaper disappears when the FM crashes, i kid you not.
[21:57] <Noskcaj> ali1234, You get used to it, as well as random swearing and saying that something else is better
[21:57] <brainwash> because pcmanfm handles the desktop
[21:57] <kristal> brainwash: Ah, that makes sense then.
[21:58] <ali1234> i don't mind ranting as long as it is well written
[21:59] <skellat> brainwash: The thing is, after the last apt-get dist-upgrade, the problem stopped on my Saucy Salamander partition.  Then again, there's no longer an option to send something to trash or view trash in Thunar but instead an 'rm -f' sort of menu item.
[22:00] <skellat> And I wasn't watching to see which packages changed
[22:01] <brainwash> skellat: a new release of gvfs has been pushed into proposed 2-3 hours ago
[22:01] <brainwash> only fixing a non-related bug
[22:02] <brainwash> skellat: wait, the trash is missing?
[22:02] <brainwash> did you remove gvfs eventually? :D
[22:03] <ali1234> speaking of "trash"
[22:03] <ali1234> the localization is all mixed up for me
[22:03] <kristal> So I installed trash-cli and this lets me view and empty trash without crashing the FM. :P
[22:03] <ali1234> sometimes it is wastebasket, sometimes it is rubbish bin
[22:04] <ali1234> and sometimes it is trash
[22:05] <brainwash> garbage can, waste container,..
[22:05] <skellat> brainwash: Nope, gvfs is still there...Trash is just no longer visible in thunar
[22:05] <brainwash> skellat: that's odd
[22:06] <skellat> Yep
[22:06]  * skellat heads to kitchen
[22:06] <kristal> Better having trash disabled until there's a proper fix...
[22:07] <brainwash> and why did ubuntu switch to gvfs 1.18 ahead of debian? :/
[22:08] <kristal> Probally for some feature or fix that affects canonical only.
[22:10] <kristal> hahaha, added trash applet think it'd have it's own little UI for emptying trash.. launches thunar... now have dead thunar
[22:10] <Noskcaj> The switch was probably so it was tested for the LTS
[22:10] <Noskcaj> btw, can we try and have a PPC release for 14.04?
[22:11] <kristal> A lot of 13.10 is intended for 14.04
[22:11] <knome> Noskcaj, where's the testers or the demand really?
[22:11] <kristal> ARM >>>>>>> PPC
[22:12] <kristal> China is looking for MIPS desktop OSes for their loongson platform, currently they use Debian.
[22:12] <Noskcaj> knome, there's not much demand. At least lubuntu will have a great PPC release then, and ubuntu might re-make it's image
[22:13] <knome> Noskcaj, why would we have a PPC release for 14.04 then and take the extra workload?
[22:13] <kristal> too bad sony killed otheros on the ps3, that would have propped up ppc demand
[22:13] <Noskcaj> kristal, yeah
[22:14] <kristal> PS4 and XboxOne are AMD APU, AMD64... I can't wait until one gets hacked and you can run Linux on it.
[22:14] <kristal> 8GB RAM, 8 weak cores, 1 pretty nice GPU
[22:14] <Noskcaj> :)
[22:14] <kristal> It'll be Xbox1 all over again.
[22:14] <Noskcaj> and linux gaming from the steam box
[22:14] <knome> can we take the non-devel talk to #xubuntu-offtopic? cheers.
[22:15] <Noskcaj> sure
[22:44] <kristal> Sorry to paster you about this, but I don't know if the feature exists. In window manger I don't see a keyboard shortcut to undecorate a window, is this not possible?