[21:50] <eagles0513875> phillw: hey :D belkinsa :D
[21:50] <eagles0513875> hey pleia2 :D
[21:50] <pleia2> :)
[21:50] <eagles0513875> oh look its Darkwing_ :D
[21:51] <eagles0513875> i feel quite at home here amongst friends :D
[21:51] <phillw> hi eagles0513875, hello again pleia2 :)
[21:52] <eagles0513875> i think im stuck here till 3 am :(
[21:52] <eagles0513875> and i have tons to do tomorrow
[21:53] <eagles0513875> pleia2: im wondering if there is one platform that the project as a whole could use
[21:53] <eagles0513875> i was thinking a form of a DMS (document management system) based on  CMIS
[21:54] <eagles0513875> question is would canonical sponsor a project that can be developed by the community?
[21:55] <pleia2> ok, off call
[21:55] <pleia2> so the way it would work is that a team member either puts up an instance themselves, and the doc team reviews it to see if it's suitable
[21:56] <pleia2> or one of us works with mhall119 or someone at Canonical to see about getting a test instance up in the Canonical datacenter after the code is reviewed by them (this takes a long time)
[21:56] <pleia2> now eventually we do need to work with canonical to get the code reviewed and approved anyway, but having someone personally set up one of these instnces would at least see if the doc community likes it before going through the hassle of involving canonical
[21:56] <eagles0513875> pleia2: maybe so but I think having a document management system would really help
[21:57] <mhall119> eagles0513875: yes, canonical often hosts community-developed or maintained projects
[21:57]  * pleia2 passes mhall119 a stiff drink
[21:57] <pleia2> mhall119: talking about sumo or similar again
[21:57] <mhall119> myself or balloons would be happy to work with you guys on it
[21:57] <eagles0513875> mhall119: what kind of restrictions would we be talking about in terms of a document management system if one were to be used as an alternative
[21:57] <mhall119> pleia2: ah, cool, any other options besides sumo?
[21:58] <eagles0513875> cuz i have tested a bit of alfresco but the core backend stuff is java based
[21:58] <eagles0513875> mhall119: there is alfresco which is really nice
[21:58] <pleia2> mhall119: eagles0513875 is the man with the ideas :) I shall leave you to it
[21:58] <mhall119> eagles0513875: the big thing these days is that we'd need a Juju charm to deploy it
[21:58] <eagles0513875> not really
[21:58] <mhall119> and ideally we'd use packages in the repositories
[21:58] <eagles0513875> let me show you something
[21:58] <eagles0513875> ahh ok :(
[21:59] <mhall119> but having a juju charm is the biggest thing, since our IS has switched to using cloud deployments
[21:59] <balloons> yes, a juju charm is the ticket in
[21:59] <eagles0513875> bah ok :-/
[21:59] <mhall119> eagles0513875: fortunately I've been learning how to make IS-approved charms recently, for the API website
[21:59] <balloons> is what your wanting not already charmed?
[21:59] <balloons> *you are wanting
[22:00] <eagles0513875> balloons: not sure
[22:00] <eagles0513875> never really started using juju sadly :(
[22:00] <eagles0513875> i know someone who works for canonical that does alot of that development
[22:00] <mhall119> eagles0513875: I'm happy to help when I can
[22:00] <eagles0513875> not sure if you guys would know him lol
[22:00] <mhall119> jcastro?
[22:00] <eagles0513875> no fwreade
[22:00] <eagles0513875> he is based here in malta where i am
[22:00] <mhall119> ah, I usually go bug jcastro or marcoceppi about juju things
[22:01] <balloons> +1 ^^
[22:01] <eagles0513875> well one perk with alfresco
[22:01] <eagles0513875> http://www.alfresco.com/products/community
[22:01] <eagles0513875> that is the community version
[22:01] <eagles0513875> is that it will help with even the versioning of screen shots
[22:01] <eagles0513875> as wlel it has a built in wiki and supports creation of multiple projects
[22:02] <mhall119> eagles0513875: whatever the docs team decides will work best, we will help you get it deployed
[22:02] <eagles0513875> in this case the doc team community and i dunno what else there is doc wise
[22:02] <balloons> btw, pleia2 did you decide on a meeting date / time?
[22:02] <eagles0513875> either there is that or we go through the headache of designing something from the ground up using libcmis
[22:02] <pleia2> balloons: no, brain is full
[22:02] <eagles0513875> mhall119: it seems like it shouldnt be to hard to make a charm and install alfresco
[22:02] <eagles0513875> its a bin download
[22:03] <pleia2> mhall119: so at this point everything is up in the air docs wise, we're not really sure where we are going, same old, merge desktop docs and manual, try out something like alfresco and migrate everything to it....
[22:03] <mhall119> cool
[22:03] <mhall119> pleia2: ack
[22:03] <pleia2> so initially alfresco needs to be deployed as a test bed so we can evaluate our options
[22:03] <mhall119> I looked into sumo about a year ago, and so did bkerensa and some others, but it was determined to be not suitable at the time
[22:03] <mhall119> otherwise I don't have any input on solutions
[22:03] <pleia2> bkerensa said it's better now, but still has deep mozilla roots that would need to be untangled to work for us
[22:04] <pleia2> which is obviously not optimal :)
[22:04] <belkinsa> Make sure you guys talk to the folks that deal with the management of  the community before doing this.
[22:04] <belkinsa> Just a reminder.
[22:04] <mhall119> when I looked, a lot of the mozilla integration was optional
[22:04] <eagles0513875> mhall119: the problem is wiht alfresco it uses java i believe in the core of it so you would need a rather beefy machine i think to run it sadly
[22:04] <pleia2> belkinsa: that's what we're doing right now and on the mailing list
[22:04] <eagles0513875> especially if its going to be slammed with alot of visitors
[22:04] <belkinsa> Of the Ubuntu-Doc team?
[22:04] <pleia2> belkinsa: yes, that's what this channel is for :)
[22:05] <pleia2> I asked everyone to join here so everyone can participate in the discussion
[22:05] <belkinsa> Right, right.
[22:05] <eagles0513875> mhall119: is it possible for now to request a test instance for alfresco
[22:05] <pleia2> we're not making any decisions today, just exploring options
[22:05] <belkinsa> The mailing list seems to have delays in delivery of the threads.
[22:05] <belkinsa> And I see.
[22:05] <mhall119> eagles0513875: I can create a test instance, but I'd have to manage it myself, I can't give out ssh access
[22:05] <eagles0513875> pleia2: i know that im just saying it woudl be great to let you guys have a look around alfresco
[22:05]  * balloons notes, which mailing list? 
[22:05] <balloons> I need to sub
[22:06] <pleia2> eagles0513875: *nods*
[22:06] <eagles0513875> mhall119: thats ok
[22:06] <pleia2> balloons: ubuntu-doc
[22:06] <balloons> ty
[22:06] <pleia2> mhall119: yeah, you can do it in your free time
[22:06] <mhall119> eagles0513875: so if you can give me a fool-proof set of instructions for deploying I can try it out
[22:06] <eagles0513875> mhall119: http://www.alfresco.com/products/community to download it :D its a bin installer so it shouldnt be hard to get installed on your system
[22:06] <mhall119> pleia2: yeah, it shouldn't take up all 5 seconds of my free time will it?
[22:06] <pleia2> :)
[22:06] <balloons> mhall119, only half
[22:06] <mhall119> eagles0513875: have you tried installing it on your local system?
[22:07] <eagles0513875> yes on mac lol
[22:07] <eagles0513875> and windows
[22:07] <mhall119> eagles0513875: how about on Ubuntu?
[22:07] <pleia2> eagles0513875: that's it, you're out :)
[22:07] <eagles0513875> i can fire up my test vps and give it a try
[22:07] <eagles0513875> :(
[22:07] <pleia2> just kidding!
[22:07] <eagles0513875> lol
[22:08] <mhall119> eagles0513875: if you can do that and let me know the process, I will try it on a test instance
[22:08] <mhall119> eagles0513875: I can give it a public IP too (as long as we have some available) so people can poke at the web interface
[22:08] <mhall119> eagles0513875: email me, mhall119@ubuntu.com after you've tried installing it on Ubuntu to let me know how to do it
[22:09] <eagles0513875> ya it has a public ip already
[22:09] <mhall119> what?
[22:09] <eagles0513875> its a linode vps hehe up in the uk conincidentally lol
[22:09] <eagles0513875> has a public ip already and ipv6 ip too
[22:09] <mhall119> ah, ok
[22:09] <eagles0513875> my email mhall119 is jaquilina@eagleeyet.net
[22:09]  * balloons notices https://github.com/loftuxab/alfresco-ubuntu-install
[22:10] <balloons> I'll bet you can turn that into a charm rather nicely
[22:10] <eagles0513875> who me
[22:11] <balloons> someone has already done a ton of work on the install process
[22:11] <eagles0513875> would a charm really be necessary if there is a binary installer already in place
[22:11] <eagles0513875> you can run the binary installer i know in text mode
[22:12] <mhall119> eagles0513875: yeah, a charmm is absolutely necessary if we want IS to deploy it to our servers
[22:12] <eagles0513875> ok
[22:13] <eagles0513875> will need to look into that tomorrow
[22:14] <eagles0513875> can you guys clarify something for me which is a bit offtopic in this channel
[22:15] <eagles0513875> how do charms work? and how does one code one
[22:15] <belkinsa> Does Alfresco have some comment system for users to ask questions for a community wiki page?  Or do we need something else for that if we go that way.
[22:15] <mhall119> eagles0513875: #juju can get you all the answers to charms you want, but basically they're a set of config files and scripts that let you easily install and wire-up multiple services on a variety of cloud providers
[22:16] <eagles0513875> can they be used as normal non cloud deployment scripts
[22:16] <mhall119> it can now, yes, jcastro can tell you all about that
[22:17] <belkinsa> I see, I was just thinking about having the community wiki like a blog which was your idea.
[22:17] <belkinsa> Then again, would that defeat the propose of Ask Ubuntu?
[22:18] <eagles0513875> mhall119: ill bug my friend fwreade :D who is in juju
[22:18] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: no
[22:18] <mhall119> eagles0513875: works for me
[22:18] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: my idea is based in a way off serverfault i believe
[22:19] <eagles0513875> like this http://serverfault.com/questions/544993/how-to-choose-the-virtual-host-apache-points-https-connections-to
[22:19] <eagles0513875> then again that is very much like a forum site
[22:19] <mhall119> eagles0513875: a big desire, at least last year, was having something that supports translations too
[22:19] <eagles0513875> humm
[22:20] <eagles0513875> how are translations currently done
[22:20] <eagles0513875> is pootle used?
[22:20] <mhall119> no idea what that is
[22:20] <eagles0513875> we need to be careful though cuz here we are going to end up trying to do too much and nothign gets done
[22:20] <eagles0513875> mhall119: http://pootle.translatehouse.org/
[22:20] <eagles0513875> the document foundation uses it and its very nice and easy to work with
[22:21] <eagles0513875> i think for now our main focus keeping in mind translations is the documentation
[22:21] <eagles0513875> btw when is vUDS
[22:22] <pleia2> nov 19-21
[22:22] <eagles0513875> pleia2: i think we need to coordinate a meeting on google hangouts or something
[22:22] <eagles0513875> man i dunno what im doing so far ahead
[22:22] <pleia2> haha
[22:22] <pleia2> I think our first step should be an IRC meeting :)
[22:22] <eagles0513875> i take things one day at a time
[22:22] <mhall119> eagles0513875: you can propose a meeting on the community track to discuss this
[22:22] <pleia2> with an agenda nd stuff
[22:22] <eagles0513875> pleia2: that works as well to start :)
[22:22]  * eagles0513875 goes to setup alfresco really quickly on my server then will worry about the charm related stuff later.
[22:23] <pleia2> I'll add to my list to set up a doodle poll and email the list about scheduling a meeting
[22:23] <eagles0513875> :)
[22:25] <eagles0513875> sry for adding more to your to do list pleia2
[22:25] <pleia2> hehe, it happens :)
[22:26] <belkinsa> eagles0513875 I see.
[22:26] <belkinsa> And uds.ubuntu.com is the link
[22:27] <belkinsa> pleia2 I agree, we need a meeting soon.
[22:27] <belkinsa> And thank you for taking the lead.
[22:27] <eagles0513875> mhall119: i wonder though is java something we would want to avoid in what we use?
[22:28] <pleia2> they already use jenkins, can't get much worse than that ;)
[22:28] <eagles0513875> well what i worry about is seeing as thats java if its hit really hard with users it will really eat up system resources
[22:29] <eagles0513875> mhall119: you guys should look into gerrit its very interesting and handy too to work with :D easy to push patches to it for review
[22:29] <mhall119> java should be fine, as long as it runs on openjdk
[22:30] <pleia2> gerrit <3
[22:31] <eagles0513875> that is a good question let me ask now about that mhall119 but i found documentation where i can create a charm in bash for deployment :D
[22:34] <eagles0513875> mhall119: we need to go a different route
[22:34] <eagles0513875> mhall119: alfresco works with open jdk but there are problems with it under heavy load :(
[22:34] <mhall119> :/
[22:34] <eagles0513875> mhall119: I am more then willing to develop something from scratch
[22:34] <eagles0513875> using libcmis
[22:35] <eagles0513875> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_Management_Interoperability_Services
[22:35] <eagles0513875> i mean that
[22:37] <eagles0513875> i need to hatch up another idea i think
[22:38] <eagles0513875> mhall119: any languages that should be avoided?
[22:38] <mhall119> whitespace
[22:38] <mhall119> :)
[22:38] <mhall119> python is generally preferred
[22:39] <mhall119> plus we have a lot of python devs around to recruit help from
[22:39] <eagles0513875> ok :)
[22:39] <eagles0513875> i was thinking django
[22:40] <eagles0513875> but i think we would need to port CMIS which is c++ :(
[22:40] <mhall119> django would make me happy :)
[22:40] <mhall119> we have a lot of django apps, so it would fit right in
[22:41] <eagles0513875> :)
[22:41] <eagles0513875> mhall119: how would one go about starting this project ?
[22:41] <mhall119> django-admin startproject
[22:42] <eagles0513875> mhall119: im saying in terms of canonical
[22:42] <eagles0513875> lol
[22:42] <mhall119> seriously though, the first step is to document your requirements, which means talking to the rest of your team and gathering requirements, then putting them into a wiki page
[22:42] <eagles0513875> ok
[22:42] <eagles0513875> pleia2: phillw belkinsa we need an urgent meeting :)
[22:43] <mhall119> eagles0513875: there isn't really anything non-standard that needs to be done for Canonical
[22:43] <eagles0513875> ok. but is bzr a must use
[22:43] <mhall119> yeah
[22:44] <belkinsa> Sure, need a channel made?
[22:44] <eagles0513875> channel made for what belkinsa
[22:44] <eagles0513875> we dont need to register one
[22:44] <eagles0513875> mhall119: ok who manages then the bzr branches etc
[22:45] <belkinsa> Why
[22:45] <eagles0513875> is another channel necessary
[22:46] <belkinsa> Maybe if it's private meeting
[22:46] <eagles0513875> then we might as well use skype lol
[22:46] <eagles0513875> one big chat room
[22:47] <eagles0513875> mhall119: last question my apologies for all the stupid questions
[22:47] <belkinsa> It's up to you though.
[22:47] <phillw> I send my apologies, but as previously mentioned my time for this is going to be very limited for the next 8 days. I do repeat that having these discussions in what is coming up to 'quiet time' for docs, thinking ahead for 14.04 and not going for the "But we've always done it this way" is a great thing.
[22:47] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: if you want to register one speak with pleia2
[22:47] <belkinsa> You don't need too.  You can just create one and leave to destroy it.
[22:48] <eagles0513875> phillw: i think at the rate things are going alfresco is out as it has issues under load with open jdk but its looking like developing a document management system from scratch
[22:48] <eagles0513875> which i think would be best for all documentation teams to keep track of revisions of documents etc
[22:48] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: exactly lol
[22:48] <phillw> pleia2: I apologise if my phrasing on my initial email seemed 'crass', but as you have seen; there was method in my madness :)
[22:49] <eagles0513875> mhall119: do you mind if i pm you i have a discussion on another note if you do not mind.
[22:49] <phillw> eagles0513875: as I mentioned, there was a system that mozilla used, but I have no idea how far forward that has progressed.
[22:50] <eagles0513875> does it do version control of documents images etc?
[22:50] <belkinsa> Maybe a later time, eagles, maybe via e-mail, just to three of us.
[22:50] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: ya that would be best i think
[22:57] <pleia2> belkinsa: we'll have the meeting in #ubuntu-meeting
[22:57] <pleia2> all meetings in the project are logged, we need to be transparent :)
[22:57] <belkinsa> Right, duh.
[22:58] <pleia2> plus not everyone will be able to make it (work, timezones, etc) so we'll need a way for them to catch up anyway
[22:59] <pleia2> phillw: thanks, just not the kind of phrasing we want on a team where a lot of great people have put in work, we're all trying here, please keep that in mind before you tell people they don't have their act together :)
[22:59] <pleia2> it's not the way we treat each other here
[22:59] <phillw> pleia2: I'll send an apology to  the team, just tied up with crazy incomming doc people and testers.
[23:00] <pleia2> phillw: thank you
[23:00] <eagles0513875> no offense to you guys im not much of a documentation writing guy
[23:00] <eagles0513875> ill gladly contribute technical stuff such as coding etc if need be.
[23:01] <belkinsa> Heh, it's cool.  I need to say the same about more for the outreach for the greater good.
[23:01] <eagles0513875> pleia2: at this point could we start with emails between us to get the requirements we need for this project?
[23:02] <pleia2> eagles0513875: go for it, I suggest doing it on the ubuntu-doc list in a new thread so everyone can chime in
[23:02] <pleia2> like Subject: Doc system requirements
[23:03] <eagles0513875> who is volunteering to take notes on the thread lol :p
[23:03] <belkinsa> I can if needed.
[23:03] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: ironically wanted to nominate you but i wasnt sure if you would have been to happy
[23:03]  * pleia2 back to lunch&work
[23:03] <eagles0513875> ok let me draft up the email and send it
[23:03] <eagles0513875> pleia2: to the doc's list correct.
[23:03] <belkinsa> Look, I love to do things for projects.
[23:04] <belkinsa> ;)
[23:04] <eagles0513875> ok next time ill nominate you
[23:04] <eagles0513875> so you have no right to get upset at me now
[23:04] <belkinsa> xD
[23:04] <belkinsa> I'm not.
[23:04] <eagles0513875> im saying in the future silly
[23:04] <belkinsa> I'm being good hearted.
[23:04] <eagles0513875> :D
[23:05] <eagles0513875> i am as well :)
[23:08] <eagles0513875> email sent belkinsa pleia2
[23:08] <belkinsa> Cool
[23:10] <eagles0513875> mhall119: question will canonical be willing to devote man power which they pay for to such an endeavour so to speak of developing a custom document management system?
[23:14] <mhall119> eagles0513875: to develop one, probably not
[23:14] <mhall119> we just don't have enough manpower to go around
[23:14] <eagles0513875> well that is another thing i was curious about as well
[23:19] <eagles0513875> mhall119: belkinsa pleia2 phillw will talk with you gusy tomorrow finishing up here at work
[23:19] <belkinsa> See ya
[23:26] <phillw> pleia2: sorry for the rather long reply following on from my apology, it was just a case of not spamming the mailing lists with ideas etc. I've had plenty of time to think and read the email threads that were started.
[23:26] <bkerensa> :)
[23:29] <pleia2> phillw: your email was great
[23:31] <belkinsa> +1