[07:02] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:08] <shauno> trying to navigate a phone menu in dutch :/  considering it's supposed to be one of the closest related languages to english, I haven't heard a single sound I recognise yet
[07:57] <StrangeNoises> so, anyone else getting this or know how to fix it?: On Saucy, using Firefox, Youtube audio is disabled and un-turn-onnable (shows speaker+X in the player) but other flash audio works just fine, eg: bbc news/iplayer
[08:06] <czajkows1i> aloha
[08:09] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[08:11] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy World Post Day! :-D
[08:11] <MooDoo> morning James bigcalm
[08:13] <JamesTait> Hey MooDoo, bigcalm! :)
[08:22] <SuperMatt> morning all
[08:26] <Myrtti> czajkowski: ping
[08:27] <MooDoo> morning SuperMatt czajkowski Myrtti
[08:27] <Myrtti> MooDoo: moin
[08:27]  * DJones emails JamesTait a Happy world post day card
[08:28] <SuperMatt> would it be all right if I fell asleep here?
[08:29] <MooDoo> SuperMatt: yes
[08:29] <SuperMatt> awesome
[08:30] <SuperMatt> nobody tell my boss, ok?
[08:31] <czajkowski> Myrtti: pong
[08:34] <JamesTait> DJones, aw, thanks. :)
[09:25] <Myrtti> I can't make head or tails of DVLA website
[09:32] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[09:43] <BigRedS_> Good Morning!
[09:43] <MooDoo> morning
[09:48] <SuperMatt> morning morning morning
[09:48] <SuperMatt> there's a lot of morninging going on today
[09:51] <Laney> that wednesday feeling
[09:52] <brobostigon> morning BigRedS and MooDoo and SuperMatt
[09:52] <SuperMatt> what we need is some crunchies for that friday feeling
[09:52] <SuperMatt> except I don't want chocolate because I've lost 4lbs this week
[09:54] <brobostigon> and i cant have milk chocolate due to my diary allergies.
[09:54] <SuperMatt> I have problems with diaries too
[09:54] <SuperMatt> people keep stealing them and mocking me for having feelings
[09:55] <MooDoo> SuperMatt: shall we just put you down now ;)
[09:55] <SuperMatt> go ahead :(
[09:56] <MooDoo> SuperMatt: come on dude I was teasing, keep ya chin up :)
[09:57] <phillipshum> there's always soya
[09:57] <davmor2> Morning all
[09:57] <MooDoo> morning davmor2
[09:58] <davmor2> Morning MooDoo how's life treatin ya
[09:58] <MooDoo> davmor2: thanks, it's going ok at the moment
[09:59] <czajkowski> ALOHA
[09:59]  * czajkowski tickles davmor2 
[09:59] <davmor2> MooDoo: make the scary woman go away
[10:00] <davmor2> czajkowski: Now knowing I'm not ticklish what the hell is the point in that ;)
[10:01] <bigcalm> It's affectionate
[10:01] <davmor2> czajkowski: how's life?
[10:01] <czajkowski> better than scowling!
[10:01] <czajkowski> davmor2: busy and good
[10:01] <czajkowski> paris and munich this weekend
[10:01] <davmor2> bigcalm: more like harassment :D
[10:02] <bigcalm> em: ping
[10:02] <davmor2> czajkowski: I don't believe you :P  you can't be in those two places at the same time
[10:02] <czajkowski> back for a week then off to italy,
[10:02] <czajkowski> then ireland for a week and NYC, Toronto to see my godson then I'm back to collect Bash :)
[10:04] <bigcalm> Thought you had Bash already
[10:04] <bigcalm> He looks cute
[10:04] <MooDoo> davmor2: it can't be czajkowski you're talking about, she's wonderful :)
[10:04] <brobostigon> any suggestions for a combined imap/smtp server ?
[10:05] <bigcalm> gmail
[10:06]  * bigcalm hides
[10:07] <davmor2> brobostigon: postfix
[10:07] <brobostigon> davmor2: i am just researching that one.
[10:07] <davmor2> brobostigon: look at the server guide it lists a couple
[10:08] <davmor2> brobostigon: tell you how to install them and gives you a whole bunch of links to more docs
[10:08] <brobostigon> thank you davmor2
[10:09] <MooDoo> brobostigon: what about simbra isn't that one too?
[10:10] <brobostigon> MooDoo: thats a new one to me.
[10:10] <MooDoo> http://www.zimbra.com/
[10:10] <davmor2> brobostigon: https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/email-services.html dovecot is the bit that makes the imap retrieval easy
[10:10] <davmor2> MooDoo: I was gonna say Zimbra :)
[10:10] <brobostigon> davmor2: i just :)
[10:11] <brobostigon> let me look.
[10:11] <mgdm> I use Postfix for SMTP and Dovecot for IMAP, which is pretty easy to set up on Ubuntu
[10:11] <mgdm> Zimbra is a bit... heavier :-)
[10:12] <davmor2> zimbra is basically an outlook replacement isn't it
[10:12] <MooDoo> it's a complete solution not just a client.
[10:13] <bigcalm> A complete server iirc
[10:13] <bigcalm> In the same vein as mythbuntu
[10:15] <davmor2> mgdm: when you say a bit heavier, is that like comparing a mouse and an elephant and saying the elephant is a bit heavier?
[10:16] <mgdm> davmor2: yeah, except the elephant grew up on Jupiter, so it's a lot more dense than it would be if it came from Earth...
[10:17] <davmor2> MooDoo: yeah I meant it was all the services and a web frontend that replicates what you get in outlook there is a client for it too I think so you can have the full mock outlook experience :)
[10:18] <brobostigon> citadel seems packaged and in the repos, unlike zimbra.
[10:18] <awilkins> I can mock Outlook without installing a server
[10:18] <awilkins> But the sad part is that it's still better than Thunderbird
[10:19] <davmor2> awilkins: I preferred evolution but everyone else seemed to have issues with it :(
[10:20] <awilkins> You'd think that Thunderbird + GMail would be a killer combo
[10:20] <awilkins> But it still doesn't work properly
[10:20] <awilkins> Things like searching for mail and you get double hits for everything
[10:22] <BigRedS> I've just switched to Tbird last week
[10:22] <BigRedS> the search in general is a bit odd, just for normal imap accounts
[10:24] <davmor2> I still hate that fact that if I want to have the same setup on more than one machine I have to copy a folder of multiple GB over instead of the setting of a few hundred MB  and then to top it off it ignores the fact that you have a folder full of email and proceeds to down load them all again grrrrrrr
[10:25] <BigRedS> there is no imap client that does imap properly
[10:25] <BigRedS> imap isn't designed for downloading entire mailboxes, it's supposed to cache recent mail
[10:27] <davmor2> BigRedS: evolution handled it better Not ideally but certainly better
[10:30] <BigRedS> Did it still insist on pretending to be a pop client and download your entire mailbox?
[10:30] <BigRedS> Actually, webmail clients get IMAP right
[10:31] <BigRedS> Hah, though with my new graphical mail client I can't get used to that highlighted envelope meaning "Unread mail or unread jabber"
[10:32] <BigRedS> given the huge width of that bar (my entire screen) it seems a bit daft to use one icon for both...
[10:34] <davmor2> BigRedS: Claws is ugly but handles mail pretty well, it's search is kinda sucky but no worse than others.  Also it's much much lighter
[10:50] <BigRedS> davmor2: it still downloads all the mail doesn't it?
[10:51] <BigRedS> I used claws for a while before mutt; the choice seemed to be between claws being a bit crashy and really clunky, and thunderbird being a memory hog
[10:56] <davmor2> BigRedS: I can't remember to be honest.  I know it meant I had a usable netbook.  Rather than 2 days of waiting on thunderbird to download all of my mail
[10:59] <davmor2> popey: you need to play more jamestown, I'd forgotten what a fun game it was :D
[11:00] <popey> heh
[11:02] <davmor2> bigcalm: you too ^
[11:02] <bigcalm> Humm?
[11:06] <davmor2> bigcalm: honestly it's an old style scrolling kill fest, just lets you let off steam and puts a smile on your face :)
[11:06] <bigcalm> Ah
[11:06] <bigcalm> Ah, a pay for game
[11:06] <MooDoo> davmor2: daley thompsons decathalon also does that, keyboard bashing :)
[11:07] <bigcalm> Will wait for it to appear in a humble bundle
[11:07] <bigcalm> Or steam
[11:07] <davmor2> bigcalm: I thought it was in a bundle
[11:08] <davmor2> bigcalm: have a look
[11:08] <bigcalm> davmor2: I guess not a bundle I bought
[11:08] <davmor2> bigcalm: that was why I pointed you at it :)
[11:08] <bigcalm> Oh, tell a lie
[11:08] <davmor2> bigcalm: I think it was a bonus game
[11:08] <bigcalm> I do have it :D
[11:09] <bigcalm> I always pay above the average and so get the bonus games
[11:10] <bigcalm> Does humble bundle no longer link to the USC?
[11:11] <davmor2> bigcalm: that last one didn't as they gave us no notice on it
[11:11] <bigcalm> I also don't see a link to getting steam keys
[11:12]  * bigcalm scratches his head
[11:13] <bigcalm> Ah, I was looking in the wrong place
[11:13] <bigcalm> Such links are via the bundle pages rather than the overall library
[11:17] <bigcalm> I see that Jamestown is not available via Steam for Linux
[11:18] <mgdm> What about Jaynestown?
[11:21] <bigcalm> davmor2: http://discworld.cuth.eu/dump/jamestown_usc_terms.png
[11:21] <davmor2> bigcalm: have you thought about a job in qa :D
[11:22] <bigcalm> davmor2: jog on :P
[11:22] <davmor2> haha
[11:22] <davmor2> bigcalm: no idea why that hasn't shown up it should of
[11:30] <Myrtti> I wish I could throw money at this problem and it would go away... meh
[11:31] <davmor2> Myrtti: you can you just need someone insane enough to take on the problem for the money :D
[11:31] <Myrtti> yeah, I suppose
[11:32] <Myrtti> I don't have that much personal funds to put on it though, I'd just want someone to take the mantle and I can offer some compensation for this one issue I have, or rather wishlist item
[11:32] <Myrtti> and yes I've already passive-agressively complained about this on Google+ and Linkedin
[11:33] <MooDoo> bigcalm: would you really want davmor2 as a boss? ;)
[11:33] <Myrtti> zoink
[11:36] <davmor2> MooDoo: I don't wanna be a boss all they do is paperwork and meetings, no time to break stuff then
[11:41] <MooDoo> davmor2: but you get to delagate stuff, it's fun.
[11:42] <davmor2> MooDoo: no in QA the fun is in the breaking erm testing I mean testing honest popey
[11:42] <davmor2> :D
[11:43] <MooDoo> davmor2: be careful, you'll end up on UUKPC, so davmor2 tell us what you broke this time ;)
[11:43] <davmor2> MooDoo: the answer is always the same.  Life the universe and everything
[11:44] <MooDoo> 42?
[11:48] <davmor2> MooDoo: yeah I hate that number you can do far to much to it
[13:13] <AlanBell> bug 181727
[13:18] <MooDoo> join #fedora-meeting
[13:18] <MooDoo> oops ;)
[13:19] <davmor2> MooDoo: traitor ;)
[13:19] <SuperMatt> why would you do that?
[13:19] <MooDoo> sorry my bad, ignore it
[13:19] <MooDoo> davmor2: and :p to you
[13:21] <SuperMatt> has it been decided if 14.04 will track gnome 3.8 for 14.04 or if it will go to 3.10?
[13:21] <davmor2> MooDoo: I couldn't resist :D
[13:22] <MooDoo> davmor2: I know I know :p
[13:22] <popey> tsk tsk tsk
[13:22]  * MooDoo hangs head in shame.....must think before I type
[13:25]  * SuperMatt notes there are a lot of "tiger" suggestions for the 14.04 codename, but I have a feeling that won't be picked, because then it steps on the feet of OSX (despite OSX having named their new version Mavericks"
[13:25] <SuperMatt> )
[13:27] <davmor2> SuperMatt: I still want Teenage_mutant_ninja Turtles
[13:27] <SuperMatt> Turtle would imply slowness
[13:28] <SuperMatt> although a turtle could also be considered stable...
[13:28] <ali1234> i am still angry about jackalope not being a real animal
[13:28] <ali1234> i mean where does it stop
[13:28] <ali1234> next it will be plants
[13:28] <SuperMatt> well... there really aren't that many J animals
[13:29] <ali1234> there are loads
[13:30] <SuperMatt> yes, you're right
[13:30] <SuperMatt> I'm being silly :(
[13:30] <mgdm> jiraffe! :P
[13:31] <SuperMatt> offt
[13:31] <SuperMatt> *p
[13:31] <bigcalm> Jeffrey the corn snake
[13:31] <popey> Tribbles!
[13:32] <ali1234> yesterday i learned that turtles are like sharks in that they have been around for ages in a pretty much unchanged state
[13:33] <ali1234> 22Ma for turtles but 44Ma for shark
[13:33] <ali1234> s
[13:49] <Bastian1_> hello
[13:54] <davmor2> popey: troublesome tribbles
[14:00] <popey> exactly
[14:08] <AlanBell> ali1234: horseshoe crabs 450Ma
[14:09] <brobostigon> am i dim, or is/are postfix/exim almost impossible to setup.
[14:13] <directhex> brobostigon, depend on how complex your setup is
[14:14] <brobostigon> it isnt complex at all, imap was a doddle. all i am trying to achieve is to get smtp to have some authentication, really. so only certain people can send email through it.
[14:26] <mgdm> brobostigon: what are you using for SMTP?
[14:27] <brobostigon> mgdm: i have tried both exim and postfix, get the same result on both upto now, i am now reading through exim's logs,
[14:28] <mgdm> brobostigon: Ah. I know how to do it on Postfix.
[14:28] <brobostigon> mgdm: ok, i will reinstall postfix, then.
[14:31] <brobostigon> mgdm: ok, fire away, what do i do, please.
[14:47] <mgdm> brobostigon: one sec
[14:47] <brobostigon> mgdm: thank you.
[14:48] <mgdm> brobostigon: https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/serverguide/postfix.html#postfix-smtp-authentication
[14:48] <mgdm> brobostigon: that's how I did it
[14:48] <mgdm> (the entire page is worth a read, btu that's the specific bit I did)
[14:48] <brobostigon> mgdm: ok, i think i have already read and followed that, let me try it again.
[14:48] <mgdm> brobostigon: if you get stuck let me know, I'll see if I can help
[14:49] <brobostigon> mgdm: ok, thank you.
[14:59] <Madam1> hey darren you there?
[15:27] <brobostigon> mgdm: ok, that section in dovecot.conf it mentions doesnt exist.
[15:27] <mgdm> brobostigon: can you pastebin what you have just now?
[15:28] <brobostigon> mgdm: in dovecot.conf ?
[15:29] <mgdm> brobostigon: aye
[15:29] <brobostigon> mgdm: http://paste.debian.net/54360/
[15:30] <mgdm> brobostigon: are there any more conf files in /etc/dovecot?
[15:31] <brobostigon> ls
[15:31] <brobostigon> conf.d        dovecot-db.conf.ext        dovecot.pem           private
[15:31] <brobostigon> dovecot.conf  dovecot-dict-sql.conf.ext  dovecot-sql.conf.ext  README
[15:32] <mgdm> oh, fun
[15:32] <brobostigon> why?
[15:32] <mgdm> erm. it might be in one of the others?
[15:32] <mgdm> they've split all the files up since I've last looked
[15:32] <brobostigon> what am i looking for?
[15:34] <shauno> I have most of those on mine too, they're pure comment.  the only files actually being referenced should be an include conf.d/* in dovecot.conf
[15:34] <mgdm> any reference to 'auth default'
[15:34] <brobostigon> mgdm: ok, let me look.
[15:49] <brobostigon> mgdm: it seems the new server guide describes those file seperations.
[15:50] <mgdm> brobostigon: ah, cool
[15:51] <brobostigon> and it still wont work, :(
[16:13] <popey> directhex: OMG! Cook, Serve, Delicious looks awesome!
[16:13] <popey> Are those keyboard shortcuts to do stuff?
[16:15] <JohnRobert> hello
[16:18] <directhex> popey, i guess
[16:21] <popey> hello JohnRobert
[16:28] <davmor2> JohnRobert: hello
[16:43] <directhex> Mad Catz ship their own Ouya alternative for £220. Or about £80 more than a PS3 or a 360.
[16:45] <popey> WHO!?
[16:45] <popey> oh, mojo
[16:45] <ali1234> you can get a ps3 for £130?
[16:46] <directhex> i did some averaging. a 360 is £130, a ps3 is £150
[19:57] <Laney> YAY new bottle of sriracha
[20:01] <bigcalm> Good evening peeps :)
[20:01] <brobostigon> evening bigcalm
[20:02] <bigcalm> What's happening, brobostigon ?
[20:02] <brobostigon> sitting infront of the tv, with a bottle of red and biscuits.
[20:06] <bigcalm> Funtastic
[20:06] <SuperEngineer> brobostigon: sitting in front of the bottle of red with a tv with biscuits on top.
[20:07] <brobostigon> lol
[20:09] <bigcalm> I have a glass of red and a laptop to keep me sane while Hayley watching Strictly It Takes 2
[20:14] <brobostigon> thats works, :)
[20:15] <mgdm> hmmm, glass of red
[20:15] <mgdm> brobostigon: how'd you get on with postfix?
[20:16] <brobostigon> mgdm: still wont work, no errors or anything, just cant get any smtp capable client to connect to it, without error.
[20:16] <brobostigon> no errors server side.
[20:16] <mgdm> brobostigon: oh :(
[20:17] <brobostigon> so i dont really know how to procede.
[20:17] <mgdm> hmm.
[20:18] <brobostigon> anything i can pastebin or such, that might help?
[20:18] <mgdm> well, I'm not at work any more, so I'm less distracted :-)
[20:18] <mgdm> try /etc/postfix/main.cf for starters?
[20:19] <brobostigon> one second,
[20:19] <brobostigon> mgdm: http://paste.debian.net/54540/
[20:20] <mgdm> brobostigon: can you do 'netstat -plnt' and pastebin that too?
[20:21] <brobostigon> mgdm: one minute.
[20:21] <brobostigon> can i pipe that output into pastebinit?
[20:22] <mgdm> worth a shot, yes - actually, run it under sudo
[20:22] <brobostigon> netstat -plnt > pastebinit ?
[20:22] <mgdm> sudo netstat -plnt | pastebinit
[20:22] <mgdm> (that won't run pastebinit under sudo)
[20:22] <brobostigon> ok, one second.
[20:22] <brobostigon> sudo su ?
[20:22] <brobostigon> then run it.
[20:22] <mgdm> no, just paste what i wrote
[20:23] <mgdm> it'll work
[20:23] <brobostigon> ok,
[20:23] <brobostigon> http://paste.debian.net/54543/
[20:24] <mgdm> right, so the master process is running, and listening on 0.0.0.0:25 - can you connect to it with telnet? (telnet your.host.name 25) - you should get some text
[20:24] <brobostigon> yes, that connects.
[20:25] <mgdm> odd
[20:26] <brobostigon> agreed, from what i read, it should work.
[20:26] <mgdm> I'm afraid I'm stuck, without access to the machine
[20:27] <brobostigon> any ideas what i can check myself?
[20:27] <mgdm> there's a handy tool called 'swaks'
[20:27] <mgdm> maybe see if it's apt-gettable
[20:28] <brobostigon> yes, i already installed that.
[20:28] <mgdm> does it work?
[20:29] <brobostigon> not done any tests using that yet.
[20:29] <mgdm> worth a bash
[20:30] <brobostigon> ok, let me try.
[20:34] <brobostigon> ok, an email sent, using swaks to my gmail worked.
[20:45] <brobostigon> that worked aswell, sending an email to postfix using swaks from my other vps.
[20:46] <mgdm> ah ha±
[21:50] <brobostigon> woop, working, yay.
[21:59] <mgdm> brobostigon: woo
[22:00] <brobostigon> mgdm: i found out, the mailbox dovecot was refferring to was wrong, ie changed to /var/mail/%u  , i still havent got smtp authentication to work.
[22:00] <mgdm> hmmm.
[22:00] <mgdm> what happens when you try...?
[22:02] <brobostigon> let me try, with which security etc client side?
[22:05] <brobostigon> i get the followinf error, "(megative smtp reply: 454 4.7.0 tls not available due to local problem)"
[22:15] <diddledan> brobostigon: that means the ssl isn't configured right - maybe it can't read (permissions) the certificate or key
[22:15] <brobostigon> diddledan: ok, how do i fix it? please.
[22:16] <diddledan> o_o
[22:17] <bigcalm> Self signed cert?
[22:17] <bigcalm> Maybe it doesn't like it?
[22:17] <mgdm> nah, self-signed works fine
[22:19] <diddledan> brobostigon: you need to check the permissions on /etc/ssl/certs/smtpd.crt and /etc/ssl/private/smtpd.key
[22:20] <brobostigon> diddledan: which permission do they need to be?
[22:21] <diddledan> I don't recall whether postfix starts the ssl stuff under root account, see, so it may need to be owned by postfix
[22:21] <mgdm> I think it does use root, because my certs are shared by dovecot and postfix
[22:22] <brobostigon> ok, so i just change them to be owned by root ?
[22:25] <diddledan> brobostigon: what are the permissions on the smtpd.key file?
[22:25] <brobostigon> one moment.
[22:25] <diddledan> afaict they need to be either 400 or 600
[22:26] <diddledan> or at a pinch 440 or 640
[22:29] <diddledan> there should be an error message suggesting what the problem is related to in /var/log/something_maybe_mail.log?
[22:30] <brobostigon> thats just where i am searching through.
[22:31] <diddledan> if not in there, then mail.err
[22:33] <Azelphur> What's the most open and cross platform / easily available compression method?
[22:33] <Azelphur> probably zip?
[22:33] <mgdm> open? doubt it
[22:33] <Azelphur> isn't zip open?
[22:33] <mgdm> tar/gzip would take the cake there, I guess
[22:33] <popey> gzip
[22:33] <mgdm> I didn't think so
[22:33] <diddledan> there is no open and cross platform
[22:33] <Azelphur> I see
[22:33] <popey> lies
[22:34] <mgdm> I thought it had been reverse-engineered
[22:34] <popey> tar and gzip exist in basically everything
[22:34] <diddledan> windows can't do gzip out of the box
[22:34] <popey> he didnt say OOTB
[22:34] <Azelphur> yea, doesn't need to be OOTB
[22:34] <popey> self extracting lharc!
[22:34] <diddledan> in that case then, yes gzip potentially with tar
[22:34] <popey> :D
[22:34] <popey> or arj!
[22:35] <diddledan> eww
[22:35] <diddledan> those are esoteric
[22:35]  * popey remembers a 3.5" floppy disk he had 20 years ago with every compression tool on
[22:35] <Azelphur> the goal being that I'd basically ship the thing that did the unzipping
[22:35] <Azelphur> so, it doesn't matter, so long as I can bundle it with my thing
[22:35] <popey> i was not being serious diddledan ☻
[22:35] <popey> SAP tried to make a cross platform compression tool
[22:36] <popey> well, they kinda succeeded
[22:36] <popey> because there wasn't one at the time
[22:36] <popey> .CAR files.. later .SAR files
[22:36] <popey> and they made their own tool, sapcar.
[22:36] <mgdm> i suppose it's indicative that people haven't heard of them :-)
[22:36] <diddledan> microsoft .cab files ftw! :-p
[22:37] <popey> only used by SAP for distributing their own patches (which are huge, so need compression)
[22:37] <popey> and we used to have to get them from an ftp server in germany
[22:37] <diddledan> had to be germany
[22:37] <popey> 147.204.2.5 ☻
[22:37] <diddledan> you remember that?!
[22:37] <popey> an IP that sticks in my mind
[22:37] <popey> ya
[22:38] <popey> same IP was in use for years
[22:38] <mgdm> I still remember Madasafish's DNS servers from my very first job, as dialup tech support
[22:38] <diddledan> I have enough trouble remembering current IPs
[22:38] <mgdm> 212.38.173.11 and 212.38.173.12
[22:38] <Azelphur> diddledan: pfft
[22:38] <Azelphur> diddledan: I'm a diagnosed Aspy, I have numeric sequences that are like a hundred digit long I can recall.
[22:39] <diddledan> Azelphur: that could be quite handy
[22:39] <Azelphur> I do it sometimes to freak people out
[22:39] <mgdm> thing is, I can't remember the production web server IPs that I deal with every day of the week for the last 3.5yrs
[22:39] <Azelphur> diddledan: *shrug* I haven't found a use beyond party trick
[22:39] <diddledan> Azelphur: and party tricks aren't handy? :-p
[22:39] <Azelphur> well, true :)
[22:39] <Azelphur> I just write it down on something (my phone or something) hand the phone away, and then recite the number that's on the screen, without looking at it
[22:39] <diddledan> what you want is to memorise a whole party's credit card numbers :-p
[22:40] <Azelphur> freaks people out :D
[22:40] <popey> you need to go to more parties
[22:40] <popey> clearly
[22:40] <Azelphur> haha