[03:44]  * ball pokes around in the Ubuntu Software Centre for educational games.
[07:05] <popey> Morning ratfans.
[07:05] <arsen_> good morning.
[07:08] <MooDoo> popey: morning errol ;)
[07:08] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:25] <dwatkins> hiya
[07:25] <MooDoo> dwatkins: morning
[07:26] <jussi> popey: nice link about HP, thanks!
[07:26] <jussi> (for everyone else: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57606827-75/hp-no-longer-playing-by-microsoft-intel-rules-exec-says/ )
[07:27] <dwatkins> can't the BBC website be opened outside the UK?
[07:27] <dwatkins> I only ask because I was about to post the link to Facebook...
[07:27] <dwatkins> s/Facebook/Google Plus/
[07:29] <popey> dwatkins: depends
[07:29] <jussi> yes, it can
[07:30] <jussi> FINALLY, finally someone did what we have all be waiting for - made a laptop that charges via micro USB
[07:30] <popey> pfft
[07:30] <Myrtti> anyone want to get rid of their used Nexus4?
[07:30] <popey> worst idea ever
[07:30] <popey> micro USB is the dumbest connector on earth
[07:30] <Myrtti> (looking for a 'new' phone for my sister)
[07:31] <jussi> meh, mines not worth much anymore since the screen got broke
[07:31] <Myrtti> jussi: call up SCF Huolto and ask how much it would be to replace
[07:31] <jussi> popey: it still is the one used for my phone, so having one charger between the 2 is wonderful
[07:35] <jussi> Myrtti: I hope its nothing like what it will cost to get the note 2 one done (€150 :/ )
[07:36] <Myrtti> jussi: ... that's still cheaper than buying Nexus 4 from verkkokauppa.com
[07:36] <Myrtti> I know, because work just did that, for me, because their purchasing policy.
[07:37] <jussi> Myrtti: Im more off the mind to just keep using it - its only the lower part of the glass, so cosmetics
[07:37] <jussi> but, your are right, of course
[07:38] <Myrtti> and I'll probably talk about this purchasing policy idiocy until the day I die
[07:38] <Myrtti> because it is idiotic.
[07:38] <Myrtti> I know why it exists, but it's still idiotic.
[07:40] <dwatkins> Myrtti: they got you a note 2?
[07:42] <Myrtti> no, Nexus4
[07:42] <dwatkins> What's wrong with the Nexus 4?
[07:43] <Myrtti> the price?
[07:44] <Myrtti> it's 369 now, it was 399 last week
[07:44] <Myrtti> http://www.verkkokauppa.com/fi/product/20915/dmrxt/LG-Google-Nexus-4-Android-puhelin-8-GB-musta
[07:51]  * kecskebak is waiting to see if uupc episode 30 was in a vault in Ethiopia
[07:52]  * MooDoo was confused watching the live stream last night as I caught it halfway through, they must have been playing pre recorded stuff while I was watching them live lol
[07:59] <diplo> Morning all
[08:01] <arsen> as anyone used a chromebook? :o
[08:03] <arsen> or has anyone stuck ubuntu on one?:D
[08:05] <popey> MooDoo: yeah, we record interviews an hour ahead and slot them in while we have tea and cake
[08:15] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[08:23] <jussi> arsen: Ive used one, not stuck ubuntu on it. works ok.
[08:24] <arsen> i just like the pricepoint and the design of the pixel one :)
[08:24] <arsen> sell my useless ipad and get one :o
[08:25] <jussi> :D
[08:34] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Porridge Day! :-D
[08:35] <popey> I had porridge for brekkie!
[08:35] <SuperMatt> oh my, everything is all too happy this morning
[08:36] <jussi> oooh, so did I!
[08:38] <JamesTait> I wish I had.
[08:38] <JamesTait> The temperature seems to have dropped a few degrees since Monday.
[08:39] <JamesTait> Lovely and sunny and really cold.
[08:39] <SuperMatt> I hope it was high to begin with, otherwise you're about to die
[08:39] <SuperMatt> oh, I thought you meant your temperature
[08:40] <Myrtti> I still seem to be ok with poached eggs and tomato on toast for brekkie
[08:40] <Myrtti> I'm a bit surprised I'm still not bored of it
[08:42] <popey> i never usually have porridge but we got some by accident
[08:48] <phillipshum> by accident?
[08:53] <popey> ya
[08:54] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[08:59] <dwatkins> note to self: don't change the ssh port and restart the daemon without making sure you have an active login in case it fails to start
[08:59] <SuperMatt> oooooops
[09:00] <dwatkins> no biggie, I just can't talk to my machine at home until I get back - I can still check it's up via HTTP
[09:00] <SuperMatt> true
[09:01] <SuperMatt> I once restarted the a firewall and disconnected before I checked it had all come back up OK
[09:01] <SuperMatt> that was a bad idea
[09:01] <dwatkins> eek
[09:01] <SuperMatt> fortunately it was next door in the server room
[09:01] <SuperMatt> and it was 5.30, so no one in the office noticd
[09:01] <dwatkins> thankfully my irc/irssi session runs on a different machine which I don't have root access to
[09:26] <ali1234> apparently ubuntu kernel developers can't fix bugs unless you tell them exactly which commit causes the bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1021069/comments/17
[09:38] <brobostigon> oh yes, smtp authorisation fixed, woop.
[09:38] <bigcalm> brobostigon: well done
[09:39]  * brobostigon bows :D
[09:48] <brobostigon> next challange, :)
[10:01] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:04] <bigcalm> It was when I started work
[10:06] <brobostigon> morning davmor2
[10:08] <davmor2> bigcalm: still is morning and I've started work now
[10:12] <bigcalm> davmor2: I'll let you off
[10:32] <brobostigon> it is possible, inside dovecot to allow a single user to have more than one imap client connected ?
[10:36] <bigcalm> I keep updating Ingree on my phone and I keep forgetting to play it
[10:38] <popey> i haven't played that for months
[10:41] <brobostigon> last i played ingress was on monday, still have 10 odd invites.
[10:50] <bigcalm> brobostigon: then use them to invite odd people :)
[10:51] <brobostigon> bigcalm: i have asked people plenty of times, little to no interest.
[10:53] <popey> there are massive ingress communities on G+
[10:53] <popey> one near me goes out hacking all the time
[10:55] <MooDoo> ingress?
[10:55] <popey> the game
[10:55] <MooDoo> never heard of it
[10:55] <popey> i hear mozilla are doing a similar location based game
[10:55] <popey> to improve their wifi access point database
[10:55] <brobostigon> alternate motives.
[10:56] <popey> que?
[10:56] <brobostigon> the motive isnt just to create a cool game, but to improve said database aswell, hence alternate motives.
[10:57] <popey> same as google
[10:57] <popey> google just aren't open about it
[10:58] <brobostigon> how can it do that, when wifi is turned off, while running said game?
[10:58] <popey> it doesn't have to be off
[10:58] <brobostigon> just put in scan mode, fair point.
[11:06] <ali1234> surely the point of ingress is to get people used to the idea of leaving the GPS etc on all the time?
[11:14] <MooDoo> people aren't going to do that i'm guessing
[11:14] <ali1234> why?
[11:15] <popey> they do
[11:15] <popey> people leave gps on all the time for lots of things
[11:15] <MooDoo> must be just me then
[11:17] <TheOpenSourcerer> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/10/nhs_drops_oracle_for_riak/
[11:19] <MooDoo> that's good news TheOpenSourcerer :)
[11:20] <TheOpenSourcerer> That's quite an impressive deal...
[11:20] <TheOpenSourcerer> Encouraging.
[11:20] <MooDoo> it's a start :)
[11:21] <MooDoo> seems like ms is in decline in this country as a lot of people are discovering the joys of oopen source
[11:22] <ali1234> ms is a derailed train at this point
[11:23] <directhex> choo choo
[11:23] <MooDoo> ali1234: unless they do something radical and soon they might have issues lol
[11:23] <ali1234> directhex: every time you say that i think of the guy from intolerable cruelty
[11:24] <TheOpenSourcerer> They've been in terminal decline for sometime. It's going to be a slow and painful death. lol
[11:24] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: unless they do something radical to stop it...the only thing I can think of would be to give away their os for free ;)
[11:25] <TheOpenSourcerer> I don't think they can do anything really - apart from becoming a completely different company that is.
[11:26] <TheOpenSourcerer> They'll keep milking the cow(s) for many years yet but I don't see much chance of a turnaround.
[11:27] <ali1234> momentum is the thing keeping the going. it also prevents them from changing direction
[11:27] <MooDoo> they could just cut the cost of windows in half when windows 8.1 is released but that defeats the object of windows 8 lol
[11:27] <MooDoo> cost of windows 7 i meant
[11:29] <JamesTait> I thought they were reinventing themselves as a device and services company?
[11:32] <popey> Giving away the family silver doesn't make a lot of sense.
[11:32] <popey> Nobody wants it for one thing.
[11:32] <popey> See: Symbian.
[11:33] <ali1234> they never game away symbian
[11:33] <ali1234> *gave
[11:33] <ali1234> the open source release wasn't actually practically useful to anyone
[11:35] <JamesTait> popey, do you happen to know where http://geoip.ubuntu.com/lookup gets its data from? I'd like to submit a correction for my own IP range.
[11:47] <popey> JamesTait: nope
[11:48] <JamesTait> Being an "online service" you'd think that'd come under my remit, but I have no idea. :-/
[11:49] <jussi> JamesTait: so find out.... bwahhahahaahha :P
[11:49]  * jussi giggles manically
[11:49] <JamesTait> jussi, good idea! :-P
[11:50] <Myrtti> the atmosphere of love and friendship is palpable
[11:50] <popey> i did wonder why JamesTait asked me ☻
[11:51] <Myrtti> because you know - if not everything - everyone
[11:51] <JamesTait> popey, you brought it to my attention a couple of weeks ago - I had no idea it even existed before that. ;)
[11:51] <popey> ☻
[11:52] <diddledan> popey: aren't you God?
[11:53] <popey> I don't exist!?
[11:53] <diddledan> popey: after mark, aren't you the "face" of Ubuntu? :-p
[11:53] <popey> Nope.
[11:53] <diddledan> hehe
[11:53] <MooDoo> popey: you're not the messaih you're a very naughty boy
[11:54] <popey> thats jono's job
[11:56] <Myrtti> pft.
[12:08] <davmor2> JamesTait: it comes from the T'interwebz
[12:09] <JamesTait> davmor2, but where on t'interwebz?
[12:09] <davmor2> JamesTait: to the left of where you're looking.......no further left, further, keep going......
[12:10]  * JamesTait hears his neck crunch as his head rotates through 360 degrees.
[12:13] <MooDoo> JamesTait: don't turn your head
[12:15] <JamesTait> MooDoo, but then I just get dizzy.
[12:16] <MooDoo> JamesTait: you're getting old ;)
[12:16] <JamesTait> MooDoo, cold? You're not wrong! ;)
[12:16] <MooDoo> JamesTait: blind as well then ;)
[12:17] <jussi> MooDoo: JamesTait *is* old! (comparitively) - its the truth, I met him at UDS! :P :P
[12:17] <jussi> I think he is actually perhaps younger than me...  :P
[12:17] <MooDoo> jussi: what you're 50?
[12:17] <MooDoo> ;)
[12:18] <jussi> MooDoo: awwwwwwwww
[12:18] <JamesTait> jussi, blimey, that was... 2-and-a-half years ago?
[12:18]  * jussi hugs JamesTait
[12:18] <jussi> JamesTait: I cant remember which one it was *erk*
[12:18] <MooDoo> well you can still meet at uds, albeit virtually
[12:18] <JamesTait> jussi, you don't expect *me* to remember *that* far back, surely? :-P
[12:18] <jussi> pffft
[12:19] <jussi> JamesTait: you offered to work on bots.... iirc
[12:19] <JamesTait> jussi, and now you get to interact with the fruit of that labour. ;)
[12:19] <jussi> It was one of the US ones - perhaps orlando?
[12:20]  * diddledan petpet lubotu3 
[12:20] <jussi> JamesTait: waiiiitt.... you are a bot? I knew it!!! :P
[12:20] <JamesTait> jussi, I've only been to one UDS, in Budapest. ;)
[12:20] <jussi> JamesTait: then it was budapest... they all muddle into one for me...
[12:20] <JamesTait> I didn't even make it to any of the virtual ones so far.
[12:21] <JamesTait> *So far*
[12:21] <MooDoo> JamesTait: don't think i've been to any both in RL or virtual they were always in the states lol
[12:22] <MooDoo> roll on the LRL reunion hope that's in the uk lol
[12:26] <JamesTait> I make it lunch time.
[12:26] <JamesTait> Time for some nice, hot pie.
[13:10] <bigcalm> I know this isn't Ubuntu itself, but anybody know how one would get a more recent version of OpenSSL installed on a Debian6 server?
[13:11] <Laney> MMM PIE
[13:11] <mgdm> bigcalm: that sounds like a world of pain
[13:11] <bigcalm> mgdm: nice eh?
[13:11] <mgdm> bigcalm: you'd have to recompile OpenSSL and then all the things that link to it in order to get the new version
[13:11] <Laney> more recent than what?
[13:12] <Laney> stable has 1.0.1e which is the newest
[13:12] <mgdm> bigcalm: don't suppose you can just clone the production env?
[13:12] <bigcalm> Laney: Debian 6 uses OpenSSL 0.9.8o, Ubuntu 12.04 uses 1.0.1
[13:12] <Laney> oh 6
[13:12] <bigcalm> mgdm: I have cloned the production server. But I've been asked to try upgrading OpenSSL before using the new server
[13:13] <brobostigon> openssl 1.0.1e-3 in debian testing here.
[13:13] <Laney> well, there is a soname change from oldstable to stable
[13:13] <bigcalm> How would one go about using a new package on an old system? :)
[13:13] <Laney> so it is true that you would have to rebuild things, and if there are api changes then port to them
[13:13] <Laney> take stable package, see if it builds on oldstable
[13:14] <bigcalm> Actually build it rather than there being a .deb I could use?
[13:14] <Laney> I suppose somebody might have done it already
[13:15] <brobostigon> isnt there a backports repo ?
[13:15] <Laney> that only works if it has been backported
[13:15] <Laney> which openssl has not
[13:15] <brobostigon> ah, ok.
[13:16] <Laney> Generally you should be trying to move off oldstable though :-)
[13:16] <Laney> (he says IRCing from an oldstable server)
[13:17] <bigcalm> :D
[13:18] <bigcalm> I am more than happy to ditch the current test server and clone the production server
[13:18] <bigcalm> The cloud being useful for a change
[13:18] <BigRedS> that is the 'better' way to make a test server
[13:18] <ali1234> bigcalm: get the deb source (.dsc, .orig.tar.gz and .diff.gz), unpack it with dpkg-source -x, build it with fakeroot dpkg-buildpackage inside the unpacked directory
[13:18] <BigRedS> periodically reimport all the weirdities from production
[13:18] <bigcalm> The test server should mirror the production server anyway. It just happens to not have been set-up that way
[13:18] <ali1234> oh and "apt-get build-dep openssl"
[13:19] <bigcalm> ali1234: ta, look have a look
[13:19] <ali1234> it probably won't work :(
[13:20] <bigcalm> Ah :)
[13:20] <ali1234> but you never know
[13:20] <bigcalm> The less wasted time the better, but one doesn't know if time is wasted until later :D
[13:21] <bigcalm> Great - write a long message to my boss on Skype and he's not there!
[13:57] <bigcalm> Cat trod on my keyboard and made a terminal full screen
[13:57] <bigcalm> I have no idea how to get out of full screen mode
[13:57] <bigcalm> Ah, right click and leave fullscreen
[13:58] <bigcalm> Silly kitty
[14:08] <DJones> Man: /lastlog MooDoo
[14:09] <MooDoo> ?
[14:09] <DJones> MooDoo: Are you around for a pm?
[14:09] <MooDoo> DJones: am I in trouble?
[14:09] <DJones> Nah, just something I hope you can help with
[14:09] <MooDoo> DJones: yeah course then :D
[14:16]  * diplo has been installing XP on an old Shuttle PC.. oh my I had forgotten how bad/long it is/was to do that!
[14:19] <MooDoo> diplo: you're loving it
[14:25] <diplo> I started yesterday about 2pm, admittedly I've not been on top of doing it fully but so far I reckon 5/6+ hours of updates and I don't know how many reboots and finding a few drivers, and IE not loading a page because of being IE6 :P ( this was a MS site )
[14:25] <diplo> It's reminding not to do it again for sure!¬
[14:38] <shauno> heh, I think last time I tried, windowsupdate did that now (complains you're using IE6)
[14:52] <Laney> oh noes
[14:52] <Laney> my chair is now a sinker
[14:52]  * Laney types with his arms above his head
[14:56] <popey> i need to fix my chair
[14:56] <popey> should take it to the hackspace
[14:56] <Myrtti> I'm wondering how colossaly stupid I'd be if I'd pay for the Guardian Android subscription...
[14:57] <bigcalm> popey: the Aeron you bought 2nd hand?
[14:58] <popey> yes
[14:59] <bigcalm> Poop
[14:59] <bigcalm> Didn't have that long
[14:59] <bigcalm> What's wrong with it?
[14:59] <popey> it broke within a few weeks
[14:59] <popey> it doesn't lock
[14:59] <bigcalm> Yikes
[14:59] <popey> so it falls back
[14:59] <bigcalm> Yes, I can see that being a problem
[14:59] <bigcalm> Mine sometimes slips out of being locked. But that's quite rare
[15:07] <bigcalm> gitg is great for looking at git repos on my system. Anybody know if it can compare branches? Or if not, what could let me do so?
[15:09] <SuperMatt> when googling aida lovelace, try to remember her name is aida, not linda
[15:09] <SuperMatt> they're very difference people
[15:09] <SuperMatt> *ada
[15:10] <bigcalm> SuperMatt: hah, nice
[15:15] <diplo> heh, had to google them both didn't I :)
[15:16] <SuperMatt> hehehe
[15:17]  * bigcalm doesn't say which he had to google
[15:21] <diddledan> wasn't linda lovelace in "deep throat"?
[15:21] <bigcalm> !offtopic
[15:22] <bigcalm> Or, maybe
[15:22] <bigcalm> !ohmy
[15:22] <diplo> bah!
[15:22] <diplo> :)
[15:22] <bigcalm> !porn
[15:22] <bigcalm> Aww
[15:22] <diplo> I'd say this channel is 95% off topic anyhoo!
 Sorry, I don't know anything about 'porn'
[15:22] <diplo> hah
[15:23] <bigcalm> lubotu3 hasn't lived
[15:23] <diddledan> this channel isn't the main support channel so I don't see that it needs to remain on a specific topic
[15:24] <diddledan> afiac it's a social room for folk who like ubuntu and want to talk with likeminded individuals in and around uk time
[15:24] <bigcalm> Sure, but certain topics aren't really meant for all ages :)
[15:24] <diddledan> I didn't mention what "deep throat" was
[15:25] <AlanBell> its fine, but lets focus more on the Ada Lovelace side of things :)
[15:25] <diddledan> AlanBell: she had nice cogs
[15:25] <AlanBell> which is next tuesday I think
[15:26] <SuperMatt> the topic came about because I was naming a server "lovelace"
[15:26] <SuperMatt> so it was on point :P
[15:26] <diddledan> thankyou! :-p
[15:26] <AlanBell> nah, Babbage was the hardware engineer
[15:27] <diplo> Stopped naming servers with names like that now adays, mine are now rack1/location/use etc in abbreviated form
[15:27] <diplo> Much easier than having to think up a set of names
[15:27] <bigcalm> Indeed
[15:28] <diplo> We used to have screamer, howler and a few other names like that :P
[15:28] <bigcalm> Except when you have a "test" server, find out you need a new test server but the name has been taken and end up with "new-test"
[15:29] <Myrtti> ladybacon
[15:29] <shauno> anyone tried using a HF upconverter with one of these sdr dongles?  having a difficult (/expensive) time trying to find one that's actually worth using
[15:30] <SuperMatt> diplo: we picked quite a good theme: scientists and mathematicians
[15:30] <SuperMatt> got quite a lot to chose from
[15:30] <diddledan> my sister is done forking new processes
[15:30] <diddledan> I'm now an uncle to 1day-old chloe
[15:31] <Myrtti> not a zero-day?
[15:31] <diddledan> Myrtti: I missed the action
[15:38] <diddledan> tesco just emailed me to tell me about their hudl tablet
[15:39] <diddledan> so-called because it's teeny and everyone has to huddle around it to see the screen?
[15:43] <popey> wakka wakka wakka
[15:43] <popey> he's here all week
[15:44] <diddledan> :-D
[15:50] <bigcalm> I don't need a new tablet, I have my Xoom. Hayley uses it as well, but complains about it's speed at times. Do I buy her a hudl or will she prefer the 10" slow thing?
[15:50] <bigcalm> *ponder ponder*
[15:53] <diddledan> btw, lovelace day is tuesday

[16:12] <bigcalm> How does one reset the root password in mysql? Can it be done with a package reconfigure?
[16:15] <mgdm> bigcalm: you need to start it up with --skip-grants
[16:15] <mgdm> or --skip-grant-tables, I forget which
[16:17] <bigcalm> mgdm: ta, will try those
[18:05] <ali1234> those things were really rubbish
[18:06] <mgdm> which things?
[18:06] <ali1234> shuttle mini PCs
[18:06] <bigcalm> Apache weirdness when using a2ensite: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6219064/
[18:06] <ali1234> diplo^
[18:06] <ali1234> i'm surprised he found one that still works
[18:07] <mgdm> never had a shuttle, had similar things though, they worked fine
[18:07] <daftykins> i went through a fair Shuttle PC fad at the time :D
[18:07] <mgdm> forget the manufacturer now though
[18:07] <daftykins> back in Athlon XP time
[18:07] <ali1234> bigcalm: sites-available and sites-enabled are a bunch of symlinks
[18:07] <bigcalm> ali1234: indeed they are, but it doesn't explain why a2ensite is throwing that error
[18:07] <ali1234> bigcalm: your problem could be caused if the symlink and the target file name aren't the same
[18:08] <ali1234> so check what it actually links to
[18:08] <bigcalm> ali1234: there are currently no symlinks. That's what a2ensite does
[18:08] <bigcalm> The config files exist in sites-available
[18:09] <ali1234> wut
[18:09] <bigcalm> Aha, the a2ensite list was dropping the .conf from the file
[18:09] <bigcalm> Added it back and the command works
[18:09] <ali1234> so the bash completion is buggy?
[18:10] <bigcalm> If that's what a2ensite uses, then yes
[18:10] <ali1234> it's what generates the tab list
[18:10] <bigcalm> Odd that it drops the .conf
[18:11] <ali1234> if you run a2ensite with no argument it asks you to type one interactively
[18:11] <ali1234> and drops the .conf
[18:11] <ali1234> this looks like a bug anyway
[18:11] <ali1234> http://lists.debian.org/debian-apache/2013/06/msg00048.html
[18:12] <bigcalm> That's the inverse
[18:12] <bigcalm> Hehe
[18:12] <ali1234> yeah
[18:12] <ali1234> debian bug 711494
[18:14] <bigcalm> This is on the ubuntu server - cloned the production server
[18:14] <ali1234> maybe it got fixed twice in different places somehow
[18:14] <bigcalm> If that makes any difference to bug numbers
[18:14] <ali1234> ie worked around in ubuntu, then debian fixed it
[18:14] <bigcalm> Heh
[18:14] <bigcalm> Gotcha
[18:47] <BigRedS> I don't think I ever saw that in DEbian
[18:48] <BigRedS> Oh, that was in sid
[18:56] <daftykins> what do people running intel ivybridge systems with 13.04 need to do to fix their corrupted graphics? situations with horizontal lines all over the image that come and go.
[18:56] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: I have that on haswell. Reboot fixes it for a while for me :(
[18:57] <daftykins> ouch
[18:57] <daftykins> this guy says it comes and goes on a samsung 5 series laptop
[18:57] <MartijnVdS> oh, I have similar issues on ATi as well
[19:01] <ali1234> buy an nvidia card
[19:01] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: and get to repair a broken machine every other kernel upgrade? no thanks
[19:02] <ali1234> since when does ubuntu ever upgrade the kernel in-release?
[19:02] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: security
[19:02] <MartijnVdS> i.e. all the time
[19:02] <ali1234> backporting a security fix != upgrade
[19:02] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: it does sometimes lead to new ABI versions, which require recompiles
[19:02] <MartijnVdS> which break
[19:03] <ali1234> except that it doesn't - that has never happened in 5 years
[19:03] <daftykins> does that intel open source site provide a better driver for those situations, or no?
[19:03] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: better than the built-in ubuntu ones?
[19:04] <MartijnVdS> nah
[19:04] <daftykins> ah fair enough
[19:04] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: I tend to run the unstable release, which requires a lot more upgrading
[19:04] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: and fresh kernels, etc.
[19:04] <ali1234> well yeah
[19:04] <ali1234> you run +1, you get to fix it every week
[19:04] <daftykins> that's kind of a large caveat then :D
[19:04] <ali1234> nobody should be running +1
[19:05] <MartijnVdS> but then nobody would find bugs
[19:05] <ali1234> they should be demanding that ubuntu actually supports releases
[19:05] <ali1234> people find bugs in the release all the time
[19:05] <ali1234> but it turns out "support" doesn't really mean anything
[19:05] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: unless you pay
[19:05] <ali1234>  rather doubt even that makes a difference
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> also, security fixes
[19:06] <ali1234> you just get your own personal excuse-maker
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> cynical much? :)
[19:06] <ali1234> every day
[19:07] <daftykins> yeah it took several years to stop Guernsey and Jersey being set to use US keyboards in ubiquity
[19:07] <daftykins> i mean seriously
[19:08] <MartijnVdS> it took less than a week for L2TPv3 to be enabled in the saucy kernel
[19:11] <MartijnVdS> (thanks apw ;))
[19:52] <directhex> 70 games on sale on steam right now, 12 of them for linux
[20:01] <ikonia> directhex: the other day you commented that there is thunderbolt support on linux, any chance you've got a solid reference on that, support levels, kernel version etc, I can't see anything on 3.10.X kernel in the docs
[20:01] <directhex> mmm, i was going by a blog post a while back by greg k-h
[20:02] <ikonia> not to worry, just trying to get something "factual" as I see rumour and suggestions, but then I don't see anything actually in the kernel or the intel or thunderbolttechnology.net site
[20:26] <popey> directhex: anything worth having?
[20:28] <daftykins> popey: GTA Online with friends is great fun. we were all in choppers last night when i set the task of a race to parachute down to the end of 'Santa Monica pier' from max altitude
[20:28] <daftykins> :>
[20:31] <popey> hah
[20:35] <bigcalm> I do enjoy watching Hat Films play
[21:30] <aquarius> chrisccoulson, yo
[21:31] <chrisccoulson> aquarius, hi :)
[21:31] <aquarius> chrisccoulson, I lied, you were online, you're just not in any channels that I'm in ;)
[21:31] <chrisccoulson> ah, which channels are you in? i'm in quite a few ;)
[21:31] <aquarius> I checked #ubuntu-touch at least :)
[21:31] <chrisccoulson> oh, i'm not in there
[21:31] <chrisccoulson> lol
[21:32] <aquarius> anyway, wanna hear a bunch of random things that I would like web stuff (either in-browser or in a native app with a browser widget) to have? :)
[21:32] <chrisccoulson> i probably should be :)
[21:32] <chrisccoulson> sure :)
[21:32] <aquarius> you may say: I do not want to hear your list, my own list is quite large enough, thank you very much
[21:36] <aquarius> things I would like that I do not currently have, in no particular order. (1) an evergreen browser and browser widget. (Which Oxide will be. Having this one thing means everything else on this list is gravy. :)) (2) addJavaScriptObject from QML into the browser widget. (3) QML JavaScript being able to attach to, and fire, DOM events inside the browser widget as though it were being done by JS inside the widget. (4)
[21:36] <aquarius> ability to flip Chromium config switches from QML in a documented way. (Qt.webkit.experimental is not a documented way ;)) (5) ability to let in-widget code violate the same origin policy by flipping a QML switch. (Might be a special case of 4.) (6) WebRTC.
[21:37] <aquarius> I want a bunch of other stuff too, but the other stuff is mainly things I want the *browser* to be able to do, like "long-press a link and add it as a bookmark", which is not your project ;)
[21:39] <chrisccoulson> aquarius, for 2 and 3, we have user script support and a message passing API which we could build around to provide this type of functionality
[21:39] <aquarius> mm. not sure about message passing api.
[21:39] <aquarius> on the grounds that I can already bodge together qml-talks-to-in-browser-javascript by round-tripping json messages through document.title, etc
[21:40] <chrisccoulson> aquarius, essentially it would be based around a message passing API under the hood anyway, as that's the way the IPC works :)
[21:40] <aquarius> round-tripping messages through OxideObject.ChrisCoulsonMessagePasser is not a lot better ;)
[21:41] <aquarius> what I want is a lower-level thing: actually expose QML objects to JS and the reverse, by tying together the underlying JS engines rather than treating the Oxide widget as a magic black box with a tiny letterbox in it for messages.
[21:41] <aquarius> but perhaps it doesn't work like that :)
[21:41] <aquarius> I mean, if I embed CEF in an app of mine, I don't handle bookmarks by posting little messages back and forth, I don't think; there's a tighter integration than that.
[21:42] <aquarius> but perhaps I'm misunderstanding and that is in fact exactly how it works :)
[21:42] <chrisccoulson> yeah, that might be fairly difficult, whatever we do, there's an element of passing messages inbetween, as the 2 sides are in different processes
[21:42] <aquarius> I'd just like to be able to have QML pass messages to in-widget JS without doing, say, Oxide.executeScript("globalMessageReceiverFunction(" + JSON.stringify(params) + ")")
[21:43] <aquarius> which is horrid.
[21:43] <aquarius> I can wrap that up in a nice API at the top level, but it's a bodge and it ought to be nicer, in my opinion ;)
[21:43] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i'll have a think about that
[21:43] <aquarius> being able to attach to, and fire, DOM events would be ultrafab
[21:44] <aquarius> (attach to and fire them from QML, I mean)
[21:44] <chrisccoulson> yeah, that would be pretty neat
[21:44] <aquarius> so in QML I can do Oxide.DOM.document.querySelector('#whatever').addEventListener(qmlroot.handlerFunction)
[21:44] <aquarius> sortafing. :)
[21:45] <aquarius> and in widget JS I can just fire a custom event with custom data attached to it, and QML listens to that event.
[21:45] <aquarius> way nice. :)
[21:45] <chrisccoulson> yeah, that would be cool
[21:46] <chrisccoulson> remember though that API's on the embedder side need to be asynchronous
[21:46] <aquarius> that's why I think that running communication into and out of the widget should be via dom events.
[21:47] <chrisccoulson> it's certainly an interesting idea
[21:47] <aquarius> then to communicate out I just do: talkToQML = document.initEvent("embedderListener"); talkToQML.fire(custom_data)
[21:48] <aquarius> and to communicate *in*, I just do Oxide.DOM.document.embedderReceiver.fire(custom_data)
[21:48] <aquarius> or something
[21:48] <aquarius> <waves hands>
[21:48] <aquarius> but you see what I mean.
[21:48] <chrisccoulson> yeah :)
[21:48] <chrisccoulson> i'm going to create a mailing list for this btw
[21:48] <chrisccoulson> when i figure out who to poke about it
[21:49] <aquarius> it's all async, it's all event-driven, and as a free bonus I can have QML attach directly to, say, the touchstart event on some random DOM element, rather than having to listen in widget JS and then send a message out to QML and have QML listen for that message and then do the work.
[21:49] <aquarius> makes it possible to pretty much define your UI in HTML but have all the logic actually in QML, where it can do Privileged Things.
[21:50] <aquarius> I imagine it's a octagonal ballache, though, which is why no-one's done it.
[21:50] <aquarius> but addJavaScriptObject would be nice, at least ;-)
[21:50] <aquarius> and all the other stuff on the above list :)
[21:51] <chrisccoulson> i'll certainly keep it in mind. it might be worth opening bugs for specific features :)
[21:52] <aquarius> I may do, once you've got to the point of having the thing in existence a bit more
[21:52] <aquarius> also, PPA.
[21:52] <aquarius> you know it makes sense.
[21:52] <chrisccoulson> yeah :)
[21:52] <chrisccoulson> it's certainly quite a beast for people to build on their own, especially with it embedding chromium
[21:53] <aquarius> which is precisely why I have no intention whatsoever of building it myself
[21:53] <aquarius> building chromium is hell on legs :)
[21:53] <chrisccoulson> heh
[21:53] <chrisccoulson> this is why i have 16GB of RAM
[21:53] <aquarius> webrtc will need help from the embedder, right? at the very least you have to hook up the media stuff for camera and mic, which is on your list. But having dataconnections would be a lovely thing in an app, yes it would
[21:53] <aquarius> if you put 16GB of RAM in my laptop, 4GB of it would poke out through the lid ;)
[21:54] <chrisccoulson> yeah, webrtc is something that we get almost for free, other than the bits you mentioned (media device selection and device access permissions)
[21:54] <aquarius> sweet
[21:54] <aquarius> I can think of about 81 uses for that without even trying
[21:55] <chrisccoulson> brilliant :)
[21:55] <aquarius> real time serverless device-to-device communication, here I come
[21:55] <aquarius> that's close to impossible right now. webrtc is loveliness.
[22:23] <shauno> hm, G+ sent me an email suggesting that I might know myself, because we have quite a few friends in common
[23:59] <ball> Let it be known that I play a passable game of Frozen Bubble.