/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/10/21/#ubuntu-doc.txt

eagles0513875hey all :)09:41
pleia2meeting over in #ubuntu-meeting in 18 minutes18:42
godbykWe're just starting an ubuntu-docs meeting in #ubuntu-meeting now.19:00
eagles0513875_hey bkerensa  and pleia220:09
bkerensahello20:10
eagles0513875_bkerensa: is there an official doc's team?20:11
bkerensayes20:12
godbykeagles0513875: You can join the ubuntu-doc-contributors team: <https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-contributors>20:12
eagles0513875_ok perfect :)20:12
eagles0513875_pleia2: ^ you might be interested in that link too20:12
pleia2eagles0513875_: that's for folks who control the release process, not regular contributors20:13
pleia2regular contributors join subteams20:13
eagles0513875_talk about confusing20:13
pleia2it is20:13
bkerensattyl folks :)20:13
pleia2I didn't bother joining anything :)20:13
pleia2team structure is a discussion that should be had, but it's really not on my priority list since it's not blocking anything right now20:14
godbykpleia2: Agreed.20:14
eagles0513875_pleia2: i think it coudl potentially cause issues or slow down the work flow20:14
godbykHaving all these subteams is quite confusing, but not something that we can fix easily at the moment.20:15
godbykLet's wait to get 14.04 under our belts and then we can explore restructuring. :)20:15
pleia2eagles0513875_: yeah, if it does slow down the workflow it will become more of a priority (it hasn't yet)20:15
pleia2godbyk: +120:15
godbykeagles0513875: For the system documentation (which is different from the community wiki documentation), there are only a handful of people who can actually commit code to the bzr repository.20:15
godbykeagles0513875: Everyone else needs to email patches, file bug reports, or submit merge proposals for review.20:16
eagles0513875_that is an issue of having two different sets of documentation20:16
eagles0513875_tbh one woudl be better and that is the official and have it where people can post comments or questions about the documentation20:17
eagles0513875_such as stack exchange20:17
pleia2we have askubuntu.com on stack exchange20:17
pleia2reactive documentation :)20:18
eagles0513875_i think official documentation shoudl go to a format like that20:18
eagles0513875_that is the top notch way to do things20:18
pleia2unless you don't have internet access20:18
godbykpleia2: Then you hope you have a printed copy of the Ubuntu manual handy. ;-)20:18
pleia2godbyk: as I tend to!20:18
eagles0513875_you woudl still have the pdf version20:19
pleia2of ask ubuntu? :)20:19
eagles0513875_no of the official documentation20:19
eagles0513875_then people with questions about it can post on ask20:19
pleia2oh, you're saying the wiki should be replaced with askubuntu?20:19
pleia2not the official docs?20:19
eagles0513875_no no20:20
eagles0513875_if people dont have an internet connection they can still download the pdf's of official docs and post questions on the page of the official doc they have a question on20:20
eagles0513875_even post if they found an issue with something work arounds etc and all the posts are visible to everyone work arounds and all20:20
eagles0513875_saves people time20:20
eagles0513875_and money so to speka they just have to read through the comments20:20
godbykIdeally, the official docs would cover most of the needs of the Ubuntu users.20:21
godbykThen the community wiki docs would just fill in the gaps a bit.20:21
eagles0513875_why  not fill in the gaps with questions posted below the official documentation and answers20:22
godbykeagles0513875: Well, it would be better to take the questions and update the documentation to answer them.20:23
eagles0513875_what w eneed to do seeing the limited man power is consolidate20:23
godbykSo, for example, we should explore the top questions on AskUbuntu and the top wiki pages to ensure that the official docs address thise issues.20:23
godbykthose issues, rather.20:23
eagles0513875_agreed but why create more work20:23
eagles0513875_why not simplify things20:23
eagles0513875_cut out a step so to speak20:24
godbykYou mean just have people modify the docs directly?  (Just like the community wiki works currently?)20:24
eagles0513875_godbyk: no. comment below them and people respond there and point out errors if any etc there20:25
eagles0513875_my idea is based off stack exchange but responses below the official documentation pages.20:25
godbykThen if we updated the documentation to remove the error, we would need to delete the comment/question pertaining to it, right?20:25
eagles0513875_correct. but at least its on the same page20:26
eagles0513875_you dont need to open another page in a new tab20:26
godbykKind of like this: <http://us3.php.net/preg_match>?20:26
godbykWhere you have official documentation at the top and comments below it?20:26
eagles0513875_exactly20:26
godbykMy experience with that sort of system is that often many of the comments are outdated or incorrect. So someone has to moderate that somehow.20:28
godbykAnd at the moment, the docs team doesn't have the manpower to do that.20:28
eagles0513875_neither do we have the power to manage god knows how many resources either20:28
godbykIt may be something we can explore in the future though.20:28
eagles0513875_godbyk: sry for talking up a storm im so full of ideas20:29
godbykThat's true. That's why we have a small set of official documentation and leave the community wiki as a 'wild west' area where almost anything goes.20:29
godbykeagles0513875: No problem! I'm glad to see you're excited about helping out the documentation teams!20:29
eagles0513875_and last week and week before i was going through hell to complete a multiple domain mail setup postfix + dovecot + mysql for virtual users and domains turns out that in the community docs there was no mention of postfix-mysql package and dovecot-mysql package20:29
eagles0513875_took me a damn week to figure out those are what were causing this server not to work right20:30
godbykYeah, that can be a problem.20:30
eagles0513875_i cna contribute some new documentation too on the front of dovecot + postfix multiple domain setup20:30
godbykOftentimes, a great wiki page is written and then abandoned. No one comes along to update it for newer versions of Ubuntu.20:30
eagles0513875_:) can also contribute some other documentation I have up on my site as well which i need to get back online20:30
eagles0513875_god im in love with alfresco the little that i tested out with it20:31
godbykTo contribute directly on that topic, you can (1) edit the wiki pages yourself to fix the errors, and (2) file bugs and help update the server guide.20:31
eagles0513875_well ironically postfix + dovecot on the commuinty site works still but lots of warnings in the logs20:32
godbykWe're a bit stuck in our ways with the system documentation for the time being as we're riding on GNOME's coattails there.20:32
eagles0513875_we shouldnt20:32
eagles0513875_why should the community docs for server ride on the tail end of gnome20:32
eagles0513875_ for me my focus would be server side documentation on the community side of thigns20:32
godbykSince Ubuntu uses so much GNOME software, we can just copy over the GNOME documentation for the most part20:33
godbykThen we just add some extra bits about Unity and tweak a few things that are specific to Ubuntu/Unity.20:33
eagles0513875_godbyk: i doubt that applies for server20:33
godbykThe server does don't, that's true.20:33
godbykThe server docs don't rely on the GNOME docs at all.20:33
eagles0513875_that is where i woudl like to focus my efforts20:33
godbykI was speaking to the desktop docs. Sorry.20:33
godbykAh, okay.20:34
eagles0513875_as i use the LTS releases for my vps's that i have for my business20:34
godbykFor the server guide, they're using the Docbook markup language.20:34
eagles0513875_godbyk: right now im very tempted to roll my own distro20:34
godbykI *think* the server guide may have been based on some Debian docs at one point, but don't quite me on that. I don't now much about the server guide.20:35
godbykThat's quite an undertaking!20:35
balloonsohh, did I miss the meeting?20:36
eagles0513875_agreed i already have a desktop in mind. which i need to port apps from kde to it and remove the qt from them so to speak20:36
balloonsplease say no!20:36
eagles0513875_yes sadly :(20:36
mhall119no20:36
* mhall119 lies20:37
eagles0513875_haha20:37
balloonsargh... sorry everyone ;-(20:37
eagles0513875_its ok balloons i was in an dout as im at work20:37
eagles0513875_godbyk have you heard of enlightenment20:38
eagles0513875_its one zippy DE20:38
pleia2it was the first one I ever used when I started using linux in 200120:38
godbykballoons: I'm afraid so. You can read the minutes at <http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-19.01.html> and the transcript at <http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/10/21/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t19:00>, however.20:39
godbykeagles0513875: Yeah, I used E back in the late 90s for a while.20:39
eagles0513875_well im planning on rolling my own distro with that as the primary DE20:39
godbykCool.20:39
eagles0513875_but its lacking apps hence my work to port apps from kde20:39
eagles0513875_as well working on a super low cost post of sales system on ARM with just the software embedded on it20:40
godbykSounds like you're quite busy!20:40
eagles0513875_yep work part time like i am right now + freelance work as well20:40
eagles0513875_and looking for a full time job20:41
eagles0513875_which is proving a big challenge20:41
godbykI'm hiding in grad school until the economy comes back. ;-)20:42
eagles0513875_well im goign to start a masters next october20:42
eagles0513875_right now im takign some certification courses20:42
eagles0513875_php 2nd half of the course plus starting a web dev course to beef up my skills20:43
eagles0513875_have another job interview tomorrow and had one today20:43
pleia2godbyk: hehe20:43
eagles0513875_have a sample site to design20:44
eagles0513875_for this itnerview i had today and have to have it ready by next week20:44
eagles0513875_or before and im setting myself a deadline of friday20:45
eagles0513875_mhamhall119 hey are you there21:15
eagles0513875_mhall119: are you there ?21:15
eagles0513875_balloons you around?21:45
shaunmgodbyk: have you ever chatted with Jorge Castro?21:47
=== jono is now known as Guest78132
shaunmhe has some strong opinions on the interaction between askubuntu and the system docs21:48
shaunmsome day I might manage to get his Open Help presentation online21:48
littlegirlDid I miss the Ubuntu doc meeting?21:53
eagles0513875_littlegirl: yes21:53
eagles0513875_about two hrs late21:53
littlegirlBlast.21:53
eagles0513875_hehe im sure pleia2  has the minutes somewhere handy21:53
littlegirlOh, cool!21:53
eagles0513875_littlegirl:  you need to ask her21:53
littlegirlDid you attend?21:54
littlegirleagles0513875_: Will do, thanks. (:21:54
eagles0513875_yes granted i am at work21:54
eagles0513875_and runnign a bit behind21:54
littlegirlOh, sorry!21:54
eagles0513875_but i have a nice short 5 day vacation in 2 weeks time :)21:54
littlegirlWell, that's good. (:21:54
slickymasterlittlegirl, here you go http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/10/21/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t19:0021:54
eagles0513875_suprise trip to ireland with my gf's family for my gf's bday21:54
littlegirlI wish they didn't do UTC. It's very confusing. My UTC doesn't use the 24 hour clock. (:21:54
littlegirleagles0513875_: Oh, that sounds wonderful!21:55
littlegirlslickymaster: Thanks! I'll grab them. (:21:55
slickymasterlittlegirl, np21:55
eagles0513875_littlegirl: planning on taking my camera and taking lots of pics21:55
littlegirlI was so caught up in learning Python that I didn't even remember there was a meeting. Then I took a break and checked my email and there was the message saying there was a meeting, so I immediately came in here. (:21:55
eagles0513875_hey slickymaster21:56
slickymastereagles0513875, yes?21:56
littlegirleagles0513875_: I would, too. (:21:56
eagles0513875_littlegirl: better late then never21:56
eagles0513875_slickymaster: just saying hey :)21:56
slickymastereagles0513875, ok ;)21:56
littlegirlYeah, but darn, I wanted to actually attend - especially since I said I could.21:56
littlegirlslickymaster: Oh, pretty - it's in color! (:21:56
eagles0513875_hehe21:57
littlegirlWill that stay up for a while?21:57
slickymasterlittlegirl, we do need plenty of colors these days21:57
eagles0513875_now  at midnight i need to figure out how to integrate this form with some modified programming to get it to do what i need it to do.21:57
littlegirlslickymaster: Oh, I'm all about colors. (:21:57
slickymasterlittlegirl, :)21:57
eagles0513875_which i think is a bad idea21:58
littlegirleagles0513875_: That sounds like it may or may not be worse than the floating points we were just learning. (:21:58
eagles0513875_littlegirl: floating points arent that bad21:59
eagles0513875_if it means breaking an entire website or the plugin that is worse21:59
eagles0513875_as i really need to get this site completed.21:59
littlegirleagles0513875_: Oh, well I'll cross my fingers for you that you get it done. (:22:00
slickymasterlittlegirl, as I have you here, in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsSw0cKYcffNdFlFakF5M0VjR002UEVvakVPZGpydHc#gid=022:00
eagles0513875_thanks littlegirl  i hav ebene dragging it on a bit too long22:00
slickymasterthe pages mentioned on the first column, how do we manage to get their url?22:00
littlegirlslickymaster: Oh, hang on a sec... I can find that. They're on Launchpad. Getting the main link...22:01
slickymasterlittlegirl, take your time, please22:02
littlegirlslickymaster: Here is the main Launchpad link for the Saucy ones: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/saucy22:03
littlegirlslickymaster: You click the "Browse the code" link partway down the page to navigate through the directory.22:04
littlegirlslickymaster: Here is the Launchpad link for the Trusty ones: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trusty22:04
slickymasterlittlegirl, thank you so much, you spare me a few hours searching it22:04
littlegirlslickymaster: No problem - I'm glad to help! (:22:04
littlegirlslickymaster: If you want to change them, you don't do it there, though. Do you have them downloaded with Bazaar?22:04
slickymasterlittlegirl, yeah, I know. Not yet, I'm going to branch it in a moment22:06
littlegirlslickymaster: Another couple I find useful are Ubuntu branches of documentation (EVERYthing): https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc-project22:06
slickymasterlittlegirl, thanks for the heads-up22:06
littlegirlslickymaster: And this one is Ubuntu branches owned by Ubuntu documentation committers: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc22:07
littlegirlslickymaster: Any time. I just discovered the last two yesterday when I looked all over to try to edit the help.ubuntu.com pages and couldn't find it. (:22:08
littlegirlWith those last two there shouldn't be any of the Ubuntu code that can hide from you... I think. (:22:08
slickymasterlittlegirl, I can see how these last two can become handy22:08
slickymasterlittlegirl, there's enough for starters22:09
littlegirlslickymaster: Yeah, I find the whole thing very confusing and I don't know why it's not all in one place or all done the same way, but at least we can find it all, and usually find someone in here to ask if we can't figure it out. (:22:09
littlegirlMy approach is to walk up to leaky walls and stick bubblegum in them and then walk away. I don't always stick around, but I keep coming back to check on the wall from time to time. (:22:10
eagles0513875_ya littlegirl  its somethign i brought up earlier with godbyk22:10
eagles0513875_about having everythign in one place22:10
eagles0513875_i did bring up at the meeting of using a custom developed version of alfresco which is a proper document management system22:10
littlegirleagles0513875_: It would be nice. I don't know why they don't do it.22:11
eagles0513875_the problem is 14.04 is an LTS22:11
slickymasterlittlegirl, I think the reason relates to the difference between official documentation and wiki documentation22:11
eagles0513875_it would need time to be modified etc22:11
eagles0513875_and adapted to the needs of the projects but i twill make managing and versioning the documentation and even Images so muc heasier22:11
littlegirlslickymaster: Yeah, that's one of my pet peeves right there. I don't think they should be named that way. It's very confusing - especially for newbies, but even for those of us who have been using the 'buntus for quite some time. (:22:12
littlegirleagles0513875_: What's wrong with Bazaar?22:12
* littlegirl loooooves Bazaar22:12
* slickymaster also enjoy working with bzr22:12
eagles0513875_littlegirl: nothing but i understand version control such as bzr mercurial svn and git to be more for programming code then documentation etc22:13
eagles0513875_hence why im makign a push for alfresco22:13
eagles0513875_or if need be code somethign from scratch using libCMIS22:14
eagles0513875_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_Management_Interoperability_Services22:14
eagles0513875_preferably i would rather fork if need be alfresco and modify it for the needs of the ubuntu community and the projects as needed22:14
littlegirleagles0513875_: Oh, not at all. I version control all my documents and I'm a writer, so there are lots of words on this computer. (:22:15
eagles0513875_littlegirl: think of it this way22:16
eagles0513875_do you want to have the hassle of having to pull massive amounts of data to your computer22:16
eagles0513875_with alfresco it can be versioned and managed all on a web interface22:16
eagles0513875_no repositories no nothing22:16
littlegirleagles0513875_: Ah, well then you've made my mind up. I'm anti-cloud and all about keeping local copies of stuff, so I definitely want to pull the code. (:22:17
littlegirleagles0513875_: This is an example of why there are so many different ways of doing things in Ubuntu. We all like different stuff, and somebody on one team probably said, "Hey, why don't we do things THIS way?" and somebody else said, "Good idea!" and maybe the other teams didn't want to, so that team went in a different direction. (:22:19
eagles0513875_littlegirl: also its very feature packed22:19
eagles0513875_has individual bug trackers for each project22:19
eagles0513875_easy to manage tasks and delegate tasks22:19
eagles0513875_i think a working prototype should be setup first and tried out22:19
littlegirleagles0513875_: I'm sure it's very nice, but if it's online only and they used it, they would literally lose me as a contributor because that sort of thing isn't for me. (:22:20
eagles0513875_you can download the files obviously22:20
eagles0513875_littlegirl: wouldnt you have a piece of mind knowing your work is being backed up as well on the server in otherwords the document management system22:21
littlegirleagles0513875_: Sure, that part is very nice, although if I'm a good girl and push my local changes with Bazaar, it gets backed up as well. I just like the freedom I have when I grab the code and work with it locally, and it's especially useful for people who travel and aren't at a reliable WiFi connection, but have a local copy of the code they can work on. (:22:22
eagles0513875_littlegirl:  you can still do so with alfresco22:23
littlegirleagles0513875_: If it offers both, then it maybe definitely be a candidate. Then everyone can pick whether they want to work with local or remote copies of the files. (:22:23
eagles0513875_you can download individual files22:23
eagles0513875_i dunno fi something like bzr could be integrated into it22:23
slickymastereagles0513875, littlegirl, have a good morning, day, night (according to your timezone)22:24
littlegirleagles0513875_: Then you definitely might want to set up an example server and see if you can whet everyone's appetites.22:24
littlegirlslickymaster: You too, slickymaster!22:24
eagles0513875_littlegirl: ya im planning on it22:24
eagles0513875_was told by mhall i would need to create a juju charm to have it deployed.22:24
littlegirlI've used Subversion and Bazaar and would be willing to try out something new just for fun, and you never know - you might make a convert. (:22:25
eagles0513875_so i need to get that sorted out and then he can setup a test server on canonical cloud hardware22:25
eagles0513875_littlegirl:  :D22:25
eagles0513875_im thinking though might take advantage of the api and highly modify alfresco to meet everyones needs.22:25
eagles0513875_i potentially need as well to create a custom plugin which strips the mallard xml down to the text for the desktop docs22:25
littlegirlCan you use it as a personal versioning system on your computer independent of the internet if you want?22:26
eagles0513875_yes22:26
eagles0513875_the core of it is java so if you are going ot be the only one using it you can run it on your system locally22:26
littlegirleagles0513875_: Any script could probably do that - Bash or Python or whatever. (:22:26
eagles0513875_it uses tomcat and they have a binary installer for download on their site22:26
littlegirlYou have to install Java to use it?22:26
eagles0513875_yes22:27
eagles0513875_the core is written in java22:27
eagles0513875_im still debating if i should fork it and migrate it away from java22:27
eagles0513875_but then i would need to setup cross compilation to get it to work on windows and mac22:27
eagles0513875_http://www.alfresco.com/products/community if you are interested22:28
littlegirlThanks, but since it's Java I wouldn't want it anyway, but if you fork it, you never know where it might go. (:22:28
eagles0513875_agreed.22:29
eagles0513875_the problem is time for me i have so many projects already22:29
eagles0513875_littlegirl: would love to fork launchpad22:31
eagles0513875_lol22:31
eagles0513875_and improve on it as a bug tracker22:31
littlegirlI know the feeling. I'm learning Python, playing with a new program I discovered and will eventually be contributing to, occasionally contributing to Kubuntu and Ubuntu, and doing some crocheting and knitting on the side. (:22:31
eagles0513875_littlegirl: i really want to finish this embedded system low cost point of sales concept that I haver22:31
eagles0513875_i almost have a fully fledged working prototype.22:31
eagles0513875_i need to find funding.22:32
littlegirlThen you'll probably do it! (:22:32
eagles0513875_i hope so cuz i could start really bringing in the clients and really cause my business to take off22:34
eagles0513875_sigh22:38
eagles0513875_i could get or try to get EU funding for the project22:38
eagles0513875_the thing is i need to do a business plan22:38
littlegirlHeh, I've been reading the meeting minutes and only just realized that the first meeting isn't it. Apparently the doc team meeting is part-way down that page. (:22:40
eagles0513875_well im so bhored here at work im adding new potential connections on linked in22:40
eagles0513875_lol thank god littlegirl  you are around to keep me company22:40
littlegirlAw, I'm sorry it's so boring there! I'm not bored because I'm finally "at" the meeting. (:22:42
eagles0513875_littlegirl: nah i have lots of work other then the sitting around i have to do for this work but i dont feel like doing it22:43
littlegirleagles0513875_: You just showed up at the meeting. (:22:45
eagles0513875_hehe22:46
eagles0513875_:D22:46
eagles0513875_and i wouldnt shut up22:46
eagles0513875_at the end of it22:46
littlegirlWhat's an SRU?22:46
eagles0513875_good question22:47
eagles0513875_https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates littlegirl22:47
eagles0513875_SRU stable release updates22:47
littlegirleagles0513875_: Ah, thanks! (:22:47
* littlegirl thinks all abbreviations should be done away with22:48
eagles0513875_littlegirl: googled it :p22:48
littlegirlI like bkerensas idea of a weekly status message being sent out on the mailing list so everyone knows what's going on and what needs to be done. Very nice organization technique that would really work. (:22:51
eagles0513875_i agree there22:52
littlegirlI'm wondering why everyone uses Google docs or the Ubuntu wiki to keep track of work when Launchpad offers such a nice Blueprint system.22:53
eagles0513875_im moving away from google in general22:54
eagles0513875_emails are going to start going to my business email accouhnt22:55
belkinsalittlegirl, do you have the link to the logs of the meeting?23:01
belkinsaNever mind, phillw passed me thelink23:01
* eagles0513875_ pokes littlegirl with some balloons 23:03
littlegirlWhoops, sorry - I was away from keys: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/10/21/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t19:0023:06
littlegirlbelkinsa: It's about a third of the way down. (:23:07
belkinsaThanks.23:08
littlegirlWell, it's feeding time here, so I'm off. I converted the meeting minutes into a PDF so I can finish reading them later. See you later and have fun! (:23:52

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