ali1234okay, i think it is in my PPA now00:12
ali1234or not- connection timed out when uploading :/00:14
skellatHere's the example cited in the wiki docs you're looking for: https://launchpad.net/bugs/17308200:19
ubottuUbuntu bug 173082 in gthumb (Ubuntu) "GThumb crashes everytime!!!" [Medium,Fix released]00:19
ali1234brb after rebooting router00:21
* skellat disappears for a while00:32
brainwashI'll test it tomorrow on my test machine00:36
brainwashand you should add a comment about your ppa and the updated package in the lp report00:37
ali1234let's see if it builds first00:38
brainwashI really should learn how to build and publish packages for a PPA00:40
ali1234it's quite easy00:41
ali1234the hardest part is modifying the package00:42
micahgali1234: you can copy the version from my PPA if it helps (for libxfce4ui-1, ppa:micahg/patch-test)00:42
brainwashthere was just no need for it yet, maybe I can fix something and publish an updated package for testing just like you :)00:43
* micahg is behind on backscroll00:43
brainwashusers-admin comes to mind >.<00:43
ali1234micahg: i looked at your xfce4-panel package, i don't understand what is going on with that at all... why it has no configure script?00:43
micahgI fixed most of it (it has no configure since I grabbed a git snapshot00:44
ali1234running autogen.sh before generating the orig.tar.gz doesn't work either, it makes loads of new files that aren't in the previous version00:44
micahgI have the packaging generating it00:44
micahgthe problem is I only got it working in a chroot, not a clean one00:44
micahgthat's why I haven't uploaded yet, been a bit busy with work, I can probably poke some tonight00:44
ali1234ah... so maybe there's some magic for autogen.sh to build a "release" type package?00:45
ali1234or .tgz rather00:45
micahgyeah, I got that part, the only issue is the the potfiles right now00:45
ali1234when i built it direct from git it was missing some dependencies00:47
ali1234something to do with gnome-doc00:47
micahgI fixed that00:47
micahgwell, added the needed dependencies00:47
ali1234i didn't notice any other problems... it would always tell me when running the autogen.sh anyway00:48
ali1234i never got weird cryptic build errors00:48
ali1234maybe adding the dependencies is not the solution - maybe it needs some special configuration so that it doesn't even try to do that stuff00:50
Noskcaj_micahg: Any progress on pkg-xubuntu team?02:44
Noskcaj_Does anyone want me to package the new gthumb? It so far seems pointless since debian doesn't want it and no one here seems to either02:45
Noskcaj_Also, can someone update the topic with something trusty related?02:47
skellatNoskcaj_: Why doesn't Debian want gthumb?  Low popcon score?02:47
skellatNoskcaj_: As to the topic, ask knome to fix it.02:47
micahgNoskcaj: no, been busy, on my list02:48
Noskcaj_skellat: I've not found anyone willing to upload, plus the gnome team says it's not gnome enough02:48
skellatNoskcaj_: How far is the packaged version diverging from what is released in the wild?02:49
micahgNoskcaj: we'll take it, but I just need a little time02:49
Noskcaj_skellat: i don't fully understand your question, but the current version is very outdated02:49
skellatNoskcaj_: It's been a weird day for me.  You caught my meaning, though.02:50
skellatNoskcaj_: It looks like the DM hasn't found an adopter to let Debian Bug #711827 get cleared up yet.  That's been open for five months now.02:52
ubottuDebian bug 711827 in wnpp "RFA: gthumb -- image viewer and browser" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/71182702:52
Unit193knome: Trusty Tahr schedule http://ubottu.com/y/trustysch  and the Xubuntu roadmap: http://ubottu.com/y/xubmap02:53
Unit193Reminder that there is a scheduled meeting tomorrow.03:39
skellatUnit193: 1500 UTC?03:42
Unit193"the next Xubuntu community meeting is at Thursday, October 24 at 15UTC on #xubuntu-devel on the Freenode IRC network."03:44
skellatIn other words...yes...03:46
Unit193brainwash: First time getting this on resume: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rb00k7spkdetgtf/failed.png06:23
astraljavaknome: Noskcaj: We got ours at Studio side (@ubuntustudio.org) just recently. I wasn't part of the organizing committee, so don't know the details.06:55
Noskcajthanks for the info astraljava 07:05
brainwashochosi: take a look at this http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=837508:09
elfygood lord - I forgot I had an account there08:10
elfyit didn't08:10
elfyLast visit: 2012-07-3008:10
Unit193It's a forum, so I don't. :D08:10
brainwashthat's our bug 123280408:11
ubottubug 1232804 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) "[compositing] improve login greeter -> desktop transition" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/123280408:11
brainwashUnit193: this resume problem is still a mystery.. the bug report gets spammed with comments about the fix to re-enable the network manager, no real debugging has been done yet08:14
brainwashand pitti is not affected :/08:14
Unit193Yeeeep.  Not really sure what I can do.08:15
brainwashubuntu's systemd-shim is most likely the culprit08:15
Unit193Yes, lets blame that. :D08:15
elfybrainwash: I found this morning that I was affected by another power manager thing - subscribed xubuntu to it08:15
elfysystemd-shim is fix on the way I Thought08:15
elfy   Status: New => Fix Committed08:15
elfyBut indeed logind is a rather08:16
elfycritical piece of infrastructure these days, so I lifted the recommends to a depends.08:16
brainwashdifferent bugs08:16
elfydidn't read much - not awake much either :)08:16
brainwashon the one hand it can be missing or it can be removed, on the other hand it could be the cause of the resume from suspend problem08:17
brainwashyea, I should have added systemd to the list of affected package earlier08:18
brainwashmmh, is bug 1116643 still around?08:20
ubottubug 1116643 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Power button mode "ask" does not work" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/111664308:20
astraljavabrainwash: That resume from suspend bug, networking doesn't work after, or is this another thing? I have it happen randomly. Sometimes works, but hard to give any numbers.08:22
brainwashyeah, it happens randomly, sometimes more frequently as reported by other users08:22
brainwashbug 18426208:23
ubottubug 184262 in gramps (Ubuntu) "gramps.py crashed with SIGSEGV in malloc()" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18426208:23
brainwashbug 118426208:23
ubottubug 1184262 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "[logind] stuck in PrepareForSleep, causing network and other services to not resume" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/118426208:23
brainwash^ this one08:23
elfybrainwash: yes - 1116643 is still around - it was definitely around at 7:30 am and then at 7:40 am - hence me me too'ing it and subscribing us :)08:24
elfyand hi astraljava 08:24
brainwashusually you could use the systemd cli tool to get some information about system jobs involved in this matter.. but ubuntu only uses a wrapper for systemd calls and does not ship this tool (it would be broken)08:26
brainwashelfy: so the power button does nothing at all or triggers the shutdown sequence immediately without asking the user (dialog)?08:30
astraljavaHi elfy.08:30
Unit193astraljava: Hello.08:31
astraljavaUnit193: Hello there, how's life?08:31
Unit193I don't even know... You?08:33
Unit193brainwash: I saved some random logs from last time, guessing of no use?08:37
brainwashUnit193: some? did you notice any suspicious warning or error message?08:38
astraljavaUnit193: It's very odd, but I refuse to complain. I've done enough of that in the past. *smirk*08:39
astraljavaAhh... too bad the timing of the meeting is unfortunate for me, got choir practice.08:40
Unit193brainwash: I pasted the one, and "b43-phy0: Loading firmware version 666.2 (2011-02-23 01:15:07)" seems odd only because I use b43. :P08:41
Unit193astraljava: Bad for me too.08:41
brainwashUnit193: ok, doesn't look that odd or suspicious. the whole thing _could_ be cause by the kernel, I read comments of other distros about a similar issue and reverting back 3.10 did help08:44
Unit193brainwash: Not exact kernel at least, maybe 3.11 in general.08:45
Unit193uname -r: 3.11-4.dmz.1-liquorix-68608:45
brainwashI did install 3.12 on my test machine, but it almost never fails to resume properly anyway (logind and network-manager)08:47
brainwashso I'm still waiting for it to fail08:47
brainwashbut same for my laptop with kernel 3.11... now that I'm monitoring everything it simply did not fail yet :/08:51
slickymastergood morning all08:54
brainwashali1234's patched xfce4-terminal package is now available for download, https://launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/+archive/xfce09:11
elfybrainwash: yep - press power button - shutdown commences with no 'ask' dialogue09:12
brainwashit fixes bug 1206739 and needs some testing09:12
ubottubug 1206739 in xfce4-terminal (Ubuntu) "xfce4-terminal crashed with SIGSEGV in magazine_chain_pop_head()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/120673909:12
brainwashelfy: right, that's systemd listening to the power button press09:13
brainwashedit /etc/systemd/logind.conf and add "HandlePowerKey=ignore"09:15
brainwashand test again09:16
elfybrainwash: so that successfully didn't make any difference :p09:20
brainwashtry again, but I'm sure changes to the config file are applies immediately09:21
elfyI did - restarted and had another go - no change09:21
brainwashcheck "gdbus introspect --system --dest org.freedesktop.login1 --object-path /org/freedesktop/login1 | grep HandlePowerKey"09:26
brainwashshould be set to ignore09:26
elfyreadonly s HandlePowerKey = 'ignore';09:27
elfywhy do we want it to ignore anyway - given that I've set power manager to ask?09:27
brainwashbecause 2 different programs are reacting to lid-close and power-button-press actions, systemd and xfce4-power-manager09:28
brainwashand xfce4-power-manager lacks the ability to inhibit systemd's actions as of now09:28
brainwashso now systemd got told to do nothing, but the system sill shuts down o.o09:29
brainwashyou could try to kill xfce4-power-manager and test again09:30
brainwashmake sure it does not get restarted by xfce4-session09:30
elfytrying a bit later - off again now 09:31
ochosislickymaster: yes, please report bugs in bugzilla09:56
slickymasterochosi: good morning09:56
slickymasterochosi: ok, will do. I think I'll have the command options page, in the staging site, ready in about an hour. Do you want me to ping you so you can take a look to see if I'm doing something wrong?09:57
ochosislickymaster: great! sure, do that09:58
slickymasterochosi: ok09:58
ochosibrainwash: yeah yeah, i understand it's an annoying issue, that session-loading transition ;)10:00
ochosialso, the problem with xfce4-power-manager is that it's currently not maintained and doesn't support systemd10:00
brainwashochosi: lightdm-gtk-greeter does set the root background and it remains after login, the question currently is, why is xfwm4 (the compositor) not able to copy it10:19
brainwashit only works if the root background gets set again by a tool like feh10:19
ochosihow did you check that the root bg remains set after login?=10:19
brainwashwell, you login and it is still visible10:20
brainwashbefore even xfdesktop shows up10:20
brainwash"/* Open a new connection so with Retain Permanent so the pixmap remains when the greeter quits */"10:21
ochosiright, that explains that10:22
brainwashcurrently I've added feh to xinitrc (before the xfce4-session)10:22
ochosibut as you said, that makes it odd that xfwm4 wouldn't be able to pick it up10:22
ochosimhm, same method as used in the greeter10:23
ochosithe only logical assumption (to me) is that there's something that scraps the root bg10:24
brainwashfeh does call XChangeProperty to change some properties10:27
brainwashand xfwm4 does XGetWindowProperty10:28
brainwashyeah, probably that10:29
brainwashI'll test that and report back10:30
ochosigreat, thanks!10:38
slickymasterochosi: unfortunately, and due to a work assignment, I haven't finished the command line page, but I'll get back to it after lunch. I just want you to take a look to what I've done so far in order to confirm if what I've done is what is intended10:48
slickymasterochosi: http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=command-line10:48
ochosislickymaster: looks good to me10:49
slickymasterochosi: ok, thanks. I'll pick up on it later on10:50
ochosislickymaster: and no stress ;) after all, you're a volunteer so we're happy you're helping us out10:50
slickymasterochosi: np :)10:50
ochosislickymaster: btw, there are a few small formatting differences to be ironed out10:51
ochosisee that as reference: http://docs.xfce.org/apps/terminal/command-line10:51
ochosi(well i guess you did, but if you need help with the formatting, lemme know)10:51
slickymasterochosi: yeah, I know. I'm not happy about the formatting either10:51
ochosibut no worries, that's a minor thing that can be taken care of in minutes10:52
slickymasterochosi: one of the things I'm struggling with is indentation10:52
ochosislickymaster: well there are standards you can use, i can show you the source of the terminal's page if you want10:53
ochosi(i guess as you only have read-only access you don't see the source)10:53
slickymasterochosi: no, I do manage to see the command line source10:54
ochosiok, then just use the same formatting they use there10:54
ochosiconsistency ftw10:54
slickymasterochosi: but are the standards used there applicable in dokuwiki? 10:55
ochosislickymaster: no, not for documentation purposes. the only standards that matter here for us is the rest of the xfce docs10:56
ochosiit should simply be in line with that so that users are not confused when checking the docs10:56
slickymasterochosi: I see10:57
ochosidespite it's name, dokuwiki isn't made for documentation purposes in this sense (afaik)10:58
ochosii see it simply as an easy-to-use wiki10:58
slickymasterochosi: dokuwiki is a bit scarce in what formatting options is concerned 10:58
ochosislickymaster: indeed, but as i said, don't worry bout that too much. as long as parole-docs are consistent with the rest of xfce, we're fine11:01
slickymasterochosi: ok, thanks11:01
ochosislickymaster: well thank you, and ttyl11:02
slickymasterknome: FYI https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/xubuntu-docs/xubuntu-docs/+merge/192413 related to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/124394611:03
ubottuUbuntu bug 1243946 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Duplication of the definite article "the" in the penultimate paragraph of the 'Welcome' section on the Index page" [Undecided,Fix committed]11:03
jjfrv8ochosi, sorry I wasn't around yesterday for the discussion on the Parole docs12:12
jjfrv8I had some questions and issues I wanted to run by you or bluesabre and I was hoping I could catch you guys today12:12
knomejjfrv8, we have a meeting at 15UTC, that is, in a little less than 3 hours :)12:13
jjfrv8Yeah, that's why I was hoping today would be a good day.12:13
jjfrv8I'll be there for the meeting12:14
knomeslickymaster, yep, i got notifications of that :)12:14
jjfrv8ochosi, a couple of the questions were on formatting...12:18
jjfrv8first, I think we might still be missing a plugin. I can't get Definition List to work on bluesabre's wiki12:19
jjfrv8second, I don't know how to get the Gtk and Xfwm themes installed that they want for the screenshots12:20
jjfrv8I don't know if that really matters, I think my screenshots look pretty much like theirs in the Terminal example12:21
jjfrv8but we'll need to standardize them among all of us who are working on Parole, no?12:21
=== brainwash_ is now known as brainwash
jjfrv8ochosi, the other issues are with the dev version of Parole12:23
jjfrv8I can't get it to work at all in vbox12:23
knomejjfrv8, what kind of errors do you have?12:23
jjfrv8it works for most things on my test hardware but I still have issues with playing dvds12:23
jjfrv8knome, I'll get the exact error for you in a sec, let me fire it up.12:24
jjfrv8knome, "GStreamer backend error" "Could not initialise Xv output"12:26
jjfrv8I get that when I try to play any kind of media12:26
knomethat's weird12:27
knomehave you installed xubuntu-restricted-extras?12:27
jjfrv8Oh yeah12:27
knometry that, and if that doesn't work, keep poking bluesabre 12:27
knomethat's out of my area of expertise12:27
jjfrv8mine too :)12:27
ochosihey jjfrv8 12:28
jjfrv8afternoon, ochosi 12:28
ochosiah, so you're in my tz :)12:28
ochosiso, your questions?12:28
jjfrv8no, but I know where you are :)12:29
ochosi :)12:29
ochosijjfrv8: so what questions did you have?12:30
jjfrv8Some about formatting, others about issues/bugs with Parole and how you want me to file/handle them12:32
jjfrv8did you seem my posts from a few minutes ago?12:32
ochosiyes, the dvd playback error12:32
ochosinot sure, that could be vbox related12:32
ochosiproblem is, i don't have any dvds here so i can't test anything12:33
jjfrv8and the formatting issues with the wiki?12:33
ochosiyeah, i'll check what plugin we need for that12:33
ochosiand inform bluesabre to put it in12:33
ochosilemme check the theme they use12:34
jjfrv8re the Definition Lists, not a biggie, but for indenting, now we have to use bullets, even if it's only one line12:34
ochosithe xfwm4 theme is fine12:34
ochosiwell, it will be there as soon as i copy the contents over to the xfce wiki12:35
ochosiwhich we can do as soon as your part is reviewed12:35
ochosiso i'd say stick to the same formatting markup as we wanna have in final12:35
ochosino matter if it looks a bit off now12:35
ochosiwhat packages did you install to get the gtk theme?12:36
jjfrv8you know what? I can't remember :(12:37
ochosino problem12:37
ochosii'll check what pkg you need12:38
ochosijjfrv8: you need the package gtk2-engines-xfce12:40
ochosithat also installs the gtk-themes12:40
ochosiso then we can stick to the rules of the xfce-docs (which i think is the easiest)12:41
ochosiand you got the icon-theme, right?12:41
jjfrv8No, I tried installing faenza, but that seemed to mess things up for some reason.12:42
jjfrv8i could be wrong, but I don't think icons will matter for screenshots in Parole, will they?12:42
ochosinot terribly12:43
jjfrv8I was using Greybird for Appearance, Default for the WM style and a custom highlight color in Theme Configuration12:44
jjfrv8I'll install the gtk2-engines-xfce package12:44
ochosiok great12:45
jjfrv8just as a watchout for the other guys, I found that if you need to replace a screenshot, it's a pain...12:46
jjfrv8you can't just upload another file and overwrite the previous one. It keeps using the first one you created.12:46
jjfrv8You have to rename the file and change the reference in the source code to the new name. :(12:47
ochosijjfrv8: are you sure?12:52
ochosii mean, are you sure it's not just your browser tricking you?12:53
ochositry ctrl+shift+r e.g. in firefox12:53
ochosithat clears the cache and reloads12:53
jjfrv8Ok, I'll double-check that. But I actually removed the reference to the screenshot in the code, saved and viewed, then added it back, saved again, and it still displayed the old file.12:54
knomeif things do not go as expected, i might be slightly late for the meeting, but i will be here.12:55
pleia2anyone about for the meeting?15:01
pleia2knome said he'd be slightly late15:02
elfyhey ho pleia2 - here comes piskie :)15:02
* ochosi is kinda around15:02
pleia28AM, boo15:03
knome#startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting15:03
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Oct 24 15:03:32 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.15:03
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired15:03
knome#topic Items carried on15:03
slickymasterit's the early bird whocatches the worm15:03
knome#subtopic Open action items from previous meetings15:03
knome#action knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week 15:03
meetingologyACTION: knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week15:03
GridCube:) thanks15:03
knome#info knome tries to have time for that latest next week15:04
knome#action skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so 15:04
meetingologyACTION: skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so15:04
knome#nick skellat15:04
GridCube#info GridCube will be ready whenever knome needs his asistance15:04
knomethat's it for the open action items15:04
GridCubeyes, i mean the desktop of the weeks thing15:04
knomelet's postpone the strategy document review for a bit, we have more news about it15:04
GridCubei tiped slow15:04
knome#subtopic Ideas for using the project money15:05
knome#info Discussion will continue on the mailing lists15:05
knome#topic Team updates15:05
GridCubei though we had agree to that already15:05
knomepartly, not wholly15:05
knomeok, everybody, is there any news?15:05
knome(remember to use #action and #info)15:05
knomei'm afk for 2mins15:05
GridCubei've been tracking the reviews for xubuntu around15:06
GridCubeand watching the responses on the main channel15:06
elfy#info  Planning for testing of LTS is moving on http://pad.ubuntu.com/SdHxBbkLTO15:06
GridCubemost reviews says that our desktop is "simple" and "minimalist"15:06
elfy# Some input from -team on various aspects of that is required15:06
elfy#info  Some input from -team on various aspects of that is required15:07
pleia2#info Published latest in "Xubuntu at" series: http://xubuntu.org/news/xubuntu-at-techs-for-a-cause-in-kansas-city/15:07
pleia2#info If anyone else knows of people using Xubuntu in the wild, please send them my way :)15:08
knomeelfy, looks good15:08
* elfy saw the draft of that - nice :)15:08
knomeGridCube, for me, that sounds like what we are after - cool! we should add those reviews to the press page15:08
knomeGridCube, if you have a list of them, can you send it to the -devel ML?15:08
knome#info knome has still one "Xubuntu at..." -series mail QIP15:08
knomeWIP too15:08
knome#action GridCube to send a list of Xubuntu reviews to the -devel mailing list15:09
meetingologyACTION: GridCube to send a list of Xubuntu reviews to the -devel mailing list15:09
GridCubeknome, there is a few people that complains about that though15:09
knomeGridCube, let's discuss that in the "wrap-up saucy" bit. remind me...15:09
knomeany other updates?15:09
elfy#info Elfy is half way through doing an QA Saucy roundup15:10
knomeelfy, you've kept yourself busy :)15:10
elfyon holiday apparently ... 15:10
pleia2knome: mention edits to strat guide?15:11
knomepleia2, i'll speak about that later :)15:11
elfyknome pleia2 - I want to make more use of the xubuntu.org page for getting QA information out there - so a roundup seems like a good place to start15:11
knomebut yeah, i could15:11
knome#info knome and pleia2 reviewed the strategy document a bit further...15:11
pleia2elfy: great, we all should make more use of it15:11
knomeelfy, definitely115:12
knome! too15:12
knome#topic Annoucements15:12
knomeas some of you acknowledge, this is my second and last term as the XPL within the extended term15:12
knomeso that it doesn't come as a surprise, and the project can plan accordingly, i'm announcing it will stay at my last for now; to put it differently, i'm not seeking for another extension15:13
elfysad but unexpected 15:13
elfyexpected ... 15:13
knomei will keep around though, for consulting and more, but i wish to focus on different things in the community for a change15:13
knomeand finally, i hope to get the community and the infrastructure in a good shape before i quit15:15
knomemy main goals for this cycle is to get at least one more contirbutor upload rights and to finalize the strategy document review so it can actually be helpful in the daily work15:15
knomeother goals include, but are not limited to finalizing long-term projects, like getting some new apps uploaded and making logging/locking/shutting down consistent15:16
GridCubesounds good15:17
knomeanyway, there seems to be another announcement in the wiki:15:17
knome#info skellat article about upgrading is in progress and can be found at lp:~skellat/+junk/UpgradingXubuntu 15:17
knomesince skellat isn't around, let's move on15:17
knome#topic New and emerging items15:17
knome#subtopic Strategy Document reviewing15:17
knomeso, as mentioned in the updates, me and pleia2 worked more with the SD15:18
pleia2it was boring, knome caught me off guard as I was wrapping up work15:18
knomeanyway, we were able to strip off all process-related stuff from the strategy document15:18
knomewhat this means?15:18
knomewell, the processes are now listed in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes15:18
knomethe goal is to make that separate from the strategy document and allow more flexibility and updating the process descriptions while we go15:19
pleia2and hopefully with the shortening of the strategy document it'll be easier for folks to actually read15:20
knomei also hope these could be more helpful for new contributors, specifically the release cycle process description15:20
knomeand that we could keep that updated, so when we start a new cycle, everybody knows what's going to happen15:20
knomeand yeah, to keep the strategy document shorter, and to the point15:20
knomechanging things in the strategy document shouldn't be easy, but after this last set of changes it *shouldn't* be easy.15:21
knomeerr, first shouldn't -> isn't15:22
knomebasically, the SD should only describe what our long-term goals and core ideals are15:22
* pleia2 nods15:22
knomedescribing how we plan a release isn't such a thing15:22
knome#action knome to make sure latest draft for the new SD is available for everybody before next week15:23
meetingologyACTION: knome to make sure latest draft for the new SD is available for everybody before next week15:23
GridCubei would like it very much if we could get people who develops xfce to join us to review the SD15:23
GridCubeif our goals and theirs dont collide its well 15:23
GridCubeits not good15:23
knomecan you shed some light why do you think it would be beneficial?15:23
knomeafter all, our SD says that something being xfce-related doesn't mean it should be automatically included in xubuntu, or by that nomination, be preferred over something else15:24
GridCubewell if they decide to go a road that we can not easily follow,or we decide to go a road that they dont wish to go (like just for example the mir issue) then we are going against the thing that makes us different15:24
GridCubeno ofcourse not15:25
knomeif they decide to do something we don't agree with, then we need to either rethink our mission or drop the component that is against our mission15:25
GridCubeas said, I, myself, think it would be nice to have someone upstream to review it and give their impressions15:26
GridCubejust that15:26
knomewhile xubuntu is ubuntu with xfce, i personally do not think xubuntu is "the xfce OS", or that we should without constructive criticism and thought follow the way they are leading15:27
ochosii'm wondering whether the SD isn15:27
knomei am not sure i see how it would be beneficial still15:28
ochosi't too xubuntu-specific and probably not too interesting for xfce devs15:28
GridCube(i'd like to think xubuntu is not just one more of the xfce distros outhere but a very important one, i might be wrong ofcourse)15:28
knomei'm pretty sure some of the xfce people disagree with some of our goals, or the means to reach them, or whether we have reached them or not15:28
GridCubeanyway, it was just a wish, lets move on15:28
knomei think i'm also with ochosi on being not-too-interesting for them :)15:29
GridCubei wouldnt hurt to ask15:29
knomei suppose we could forward the SD to their development list once the rewrite is done15:30
GridCubemmhm :)15:30
knome(this last rewrite didn't really change anything re: xfce, just internal procedures and stuff)15:30
GridCubei was thinking more about the whole gtk3 indicators issue15:31
knomethat's been discussed with them15:31
knomeand tbh, that's a non-SD related issue15:31
ochosiyeah, and that's more a roadmap item 15:31
GridCubebut again, lets move on15:31
knome(or it should be)15:31
knome#subtopic Developer communication and coordination in IRC15:31
knomeok, i just wanted to let you guys know that we *really* should use #xubuntu-devel for development discussion, not -offtopic15:32
knomeit keeps the development transparent and logged15:32
GridCubealright, sounds fair15:32
knome#info Use #xubuntu-devel for development discussions, not #xubuntu-offtopic (where you are of course encouraged to socialize with other developers)15:33
GridCubecan i note that we should not use -offtopic for devel things aswell15:33
knomewell that's what i said ;)15:33
GridCubeoh ahahaha i missreaded15:33
GridCubei swapped the channels15:33
knome#subtopic Translating the website, LP 79760015:34
ubottuLaunchpad bug 797600 in Xubuntu Website "Enable translations for the Xubuntu website" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/79760015:34
knomecan't remember who set this agenda item up, but15:34
GridCubeolbi probably15:34
knomeanyway, the relevant comment: https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website/+bug/797600/comments/615:35
knomepleia2, what do you think of that?15:35
* pleia2 reads15:35
knomewe would be able to do this without any translation plugins, and the text itself could be something that was useful for flyers and stuff as well.15:35
pleia2seems messy15:35
pleia2but possible15:35
knomenot really, as long as the languages are a subpage of a page15:36
knomethat's of course just one of the options15:36
knomei was thinking that would also help the burden for translators short- AND long-term15:36
ochosican't we handle the translations via launchpad?15:37
knomeochosi, website translations?15:37
ochosisomething like putting the source of xubuntu.org on lp15:37
knomethe problem is how to *handle* those translations15:37
knomebut that's another idea.15:37
ochosion the wordpress-side, you mean?15:37
knomei mean, even for this translate-one-page15:37
ochosiwell you're the wp-expert, i've never handled translateable installations ;)15:38
knomewe could create a simple plugin that loads a page and serves alternative languages from .po files15:38
knomebut that's somewhat fishy as well15:39
knomelet's see how i have time during the next cycle15:39
knomemaybe i might be able to finish off my translation plugin as well15:39
knome#subtopic Wrap up the Saucy cycle; things we did well, areas to improve, postponing blueprints to T, ... 15:40
knomeGridCube, people not liking xubuntu?15:40
knomeor thinking it's too simplistic...15:40
GridCubethe reviews i've seen are a bit dissapointed with us15:41
GridCubei understand that they have to show new shinny things and we dont provide that15:42
GridCubeand over that we even give away a desktop that has an obvious broken indicator issue15:42
knomeso what they are saying is that we didn't provide enough new features for them?15:42
ochosifrom what i read the broken sound-indicator is quite a bummer for most upgraders15:42
GridCubeknome, basically they say that there is no reason to install 13.10 whatsoever15:43
knomethe broken indicators situation sucks.15:43
GridCubejust wait for next LTS waht most of them say15:43
ochosiand there are some logind/suspend issues15:43
knomefrom my POV, we progressed more "behind the curtains" than in front of15:43
GridCubeknome, yes, i do understand that, im not saying not, as said they need to show new thingies to their readers15:44
GridCubethey could copy paste the review from 13.04 and it would still work15:44
brainwashwe have a new wallpaper, this is a major change!15:44
GridCubeyeah... 15:44
knomeheh, i read a review that said you can barely notice it unless you compare the two next to each other15:44
GridCubenot even a few wallapers to choose15:44
knomethat's highly subjective though15:45
brainwashthe average xubuntu/xfce user does not like fancy changes anyway, things should simply work15:45
GridCubeyeah well, also some said that basic xubuntu needs about 500mb of ram with nothing open15:45
pleia2speaking of reviews, can you pleia2: me when you find one? http://xubuntu.org/press/ doesn't have many at the moment15:45
knomebrainwash, that's a dangerous generalisation to make15:45
knomebrainwash, probably more true with xfce users, but i don't know about xubuntu users15:46
GridCubepleia2, i've been pasting some on -offtopic15:46
GridCubebut sure15:46
pleia2GridCube: I can't read full backlogs of that channel, so highlight here is appreciated15:46
GridCubemost of them did say that our system almost never crash and its fast15:47
knomepleia2, i understand, it's icky enough that most of us can't15:47
ochosisorry folks, gotta go, have a goo drest of a meeting15:47
knome1) we need to get the fixed indicator stack in the backports soon15:47
knome2) people want new features, but we didn't provide them those; we will with 14.0415:47
knomei think the indicator stack issue is one of the things where we could've done better15:48
knomereleasing with them was a decision taken, not an accident though15:48
* GridCube wasnt really involved to notice how broken that was15:48
elfyknome: not sure how - it was down to time for the few that could do anything 15:49
knomeit was known for a long time, but fixing it in a way or other wasn't trivial15:49
knomeelfy, i suppose we should've asked for more external support and/or generally just going for the gtk3 stack because we "need" that for 14.04 anyway15:50
elfypossibly - I don't know enough about the ramifications of that to comment :)15:50
knomeand a lot of that discussion could have happened earlier in the cycle, even/especially amongst those who couldn't do the final heavy lifting15:50
knomeand that might've given the people who were able to do the heavy lifting more time to do it15:51
knomeanyway, i think it was a good cycle community-wise15:51
elfyas far as I know it was being discussed in here almost as soon as it showed up15:51
knomeand as i said, more things seemed to happen behind the curtains than in front of15:51
elfyyea definitely15:52
knomeelfy, the gtk3 indicator stack was a possible direction at the beginning of the cycle, though at that point it wasn't as clear how broken the gtk2 indicators would've been (but maybe we would've found out...)15:52
knomeand - congrats to everybody who contributed15:53
GridCubethe overall status of xubuntu is impressive, if i can say, i mean besides the gtk3 indicators i dont think there is a single complain that is not subjetive15:53
knome13.10 is a good stepping stone for 14.04, which will be, i'm sure, the best xubuntu LTS out there15:53
elfyit's be tested - that's for sure :p15:53
knomethat too!15:53
knomethe agenda has a mention of postponing blueprints/work items for T, but we'll do that later15:54
knomeUnit193, you around?15:54
knome#subtopic Xubuntu Core (or xubuntu-core)15:54
knomei'm thinking we should carry on this item for the next meeting15:54
elfyI agree with that15:55
knome#subtopic Schedule next meeting15:55
GridCubeo/ 15:55
knomeGridCube, oi?15:55
GridCubei want to ask something for 14.0415:55
GridCubei've read on a review this; 15:56
GridCubexfce4-power-manager-plugins is not installed by default, and in 13.10 is now hidden under technical items in the software center.15:56
GridCubeThis means that the users who can't get their brightness buttons working have to know all of that as well as how to add the brightness manager to the panel to see it at all. That is unacceptable for a newbie to linux.15:56
knomei don't know enough of that to say this or that15:56
GridCubei've heard a lot of people comming to the channel to ask about brightness and this is the first time i've learned that xfce has a tool for it15:56
knomewe need to look at it15:56
GridCubei would like this to be investigated15:56
GridCube:) yes15:56
knomecan you add that to the roadmap page in the discussion?15:57
GridCubein lp¿15:57
GridCubeok yes15:57
knomeso, next week is the end of brainstorming15:57
knomewe should discuss the roadmap then, so let's schedule a meeting for next week15:57
knome#info Next Xubuntu community meeting: Thu, Oct 31st, 15UTC at #xubuntu-devel15:58
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Oct 24 15:58:44 2013 UTC.  15:58
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-10-24-15.03.moin.txt15:58
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-10-24-15.03.html15:58
knomei'll add the minutes in the wiki later today15:58
elfythanks knome 15:58
elfyand everyone else too :)15:58
GridCubedone knome 15:59
pleia2thanks knome 16:01
knomeok, i'm off again16:02
knomesee you later16:02
jjfrv8ochosi, I'll be back around 22UTC tonight and then back tomorrow around 12.16:03
jjfrv8I think Preferences is pretty much ready for review - except for one bug I have to discuss with bluesabre.16:04
jjfrv8I don't think I'm qualified to do the Introduction so the only one left is Usage. I can move onto that but don't want to conflict with efly or slickymaster 16:04
slickymasterjjfrv8: I'm wrapping up the Command-line Options, I think I'll have finished later on16:06
slickymasterjjfrv8: but I don't know if elfy is going to pick up on Usage or not16:07
elfyslickymaster: doubt it - or not any time soon - still catching up with myself16:21
slickymasterelfy: np. If jjfrv8 is unable to do it, I'll do it.16:23
elfyok - thanks :)16:23
slickymasterochosi: http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=command-line ready for review. Ping me if you want/think that there's any changes need to be done17:00
brainwashali1234: your terminal package works17:19
brainwashali1234: what's the deal with 1.2?17:20
ali1234brainwash: well, i uploaded it as ubuntu2 the first time17:25
ali1234then i rad you're not supposed to number it that way so i changed it to 1.117:25
ali1234but i didn't change it everywhere17:25
ali1234so then i deleted the 1.1 and tried to upload it again but fixed but this is not allowed17:25
ali1234so i had to bump it to 1.217:25
brainwashI see =S17:25
brainwashthe fix works, the package works, everything seems ok17:26
Unit193knome: Now that I've read backlog, pretty much yes. :P18:33
elfypleia2 knome - when you've got time can one of you look at the draft qa roundup I did for the blog18:55
=== elfy_ is now known as forestpiskie
Unit193andrzejr: I take it you haven't contacted the Ubuntu desktop team about actually releasing what's being used in Ubuntu as far as indicators?20:11
knomeandrzejr, we really want the gtk3 indicator stuff in 14.04, if you need any help with organizing anything, please ask us20:18
Unit193knome: Hello, I ponged but it was too late. :P20:19
knomeUnit193, yeah, np. was just wondering if you wanted to lead the discussion or not.20:20
Unit193Not really. :P20:20
knomewell clearly not, you hid until the meeting ended! :P20:22
Unit193It'd be nice if whoever does actually knew what they were talking about though.  So I still see it as something to install from the mini iso, is this wrong?  It changes how it's made if you use some sort of black magic to get it in Ubiquity.20:22
Unit193Found a good hiding place, what can I say?20:22
slickymastergood night all20:22
knomeheh. yeah.20:22
knomehey slickymaster 20:22
slickymasterhi knome 20:22
elfyknome: looks ok - but I'm not sure about a beer tasting of gooseberries20:40
Unit193knome: Please to speak about goals on that?20:55
Unit193knome: And one thing that'd help ^ is actually having Ubuntu *release* the NG indicator stuff, right now Ubuntu is basically rolling from git and hogging it to itself. :P20:57
andrzejrknome, any particular requests for the indicator plugin?21:00
knomeandrzejr, as long as it works...21:05
knomeandrzejr, i can't speak of the technical side, you should be in touch with ochosi, bluesabre and micahg on that21:06
xnoxUnit193: what's your question?21:08
andrzejrknome, ok21:08
elfyUnit193: I've got to say - I imagined the core being something to install via mini iso 21:08
Unit193xnox: Hmmm?  I had a couple questions, but wasn't trying to ping you (yet)21:09
xnoxUnit193: re: "It'd be nice if whoever does actually knew what they were talking about though.  So I still see it as something to install from the mini iso, is this wrong?  It changes how it's made if you use some sort of black magic to get it in Ubiquity."21:09
xnoxUnit193: i have highlights on "ubiquity"21:09
knomexnox, speaking about a "xubuntu-core" metapackage, but we're undecided yet.21:10
Unit193Yeah, figured that.  It's nothing yet, didn't mean to ping.  We're looking at a xubuntu-core thing and I'm not quit sure the target. :)21:10
andrzejrknome, the biggest problem at the moment is that the plugin depends on xfce4-panel from my private git branch. Nick promised to merge the changes but until it is done we should not assume the panel will support mixed gtk2 and gtk3 plugins.21:10
xnoxUnit193: installing from netboot, mini.iso, server.iso, desktop.iso is all valid methods. To be honest it doesn't matter how one installs. If one installs xubuntu-desktop, one gets xubuntu experience. One may need to adjust alternatives/themes if one installs multiple.21:10
Unit193xnox: The things I meant to ping you about, no chance of shipping a /usr/share/pixmaps/ubiquity.xpm and /usr/share/menu/ubiquity, right?21:10
knomeandrzejr, yep, we definitely need to be in touch with nick as well21:11
xnoxknome: "xubuntu-core" might make sense as a seed one includes, given that there are multiple flavours basing on top off xubuntu. E.g. common bits between Studio and Xubuntu can be placed into xubuntu-core, or "xfce-core"21:11
Unit193xnox: There really is a difference though, if you install using apt-get, you will pull in a ton of useless deps because you don't get the nice blacklist, so you rather have to install without recommends.21:11
xnoxknome: e.g. edubuntu has a few seeds - for core stuff, for server and desktop.21:11
knomexnox, that's not exactly what we are after, but... that's a valid point i suppose21:12
knomexnox, would be probably more like the edubuntu stuff, without thinking what ubuntu studio wants too much21:12
xnoxknome: Unit193: oh I see. So in edubuntu they have: edubuntu-desktop for the "core" stuff and then additional components via "edubuntu-desktop-physics", -math, -education, etc.... since not everyone would want everything.21:13
xnoxand then some e.g. install edubuntu + edubuntu-physics, or edubuntu & -whatever.21:14
knomexnox, a bit like that, but reverse; the usual installed component would be -desktop, and those who want a minimal installation could install just -core instead21:14
xnoxknome: boot edubuntu installer, it's quite different from other flavours. And let's one to add/remove components.21:14
knome(which would still ship a usable desktop, but with less stuff)21:14
knomexnox, yeah, i've seen that21:14
knomexnox, i believe that's what ubuntu studio wants actually21:15
xnoxknome: quite, so you might customize / fork edubuntu ubiquity plugin to select component & default to -desktop and optionally remove / fallback to -core only.21:15
xnoxknome: right, i might put them that way.21:15
knomethat, or the other option is that it's just a metapackage that's installable from the minimal iso, for those who know what they are doing.21:15
xnoxknome: if you do split -core and -desktop, a small tweak will be needed to make it "top-level" metapage and then e.g. netbook / minimal.iso can offer Xubuntu Core & Xubuntu Full.21:16
xnoxknome: right, that should be fine as well.21:16
knomethat's what we're pondering now21:16
xnoxknome: or we can even spin Core images which might even fit on a smaller CD / bussiness-card cd.21:17
xnoxknome: well you do need to start with splitting what's core and what's desktop. and then add it to seeds branch (but not -meta package) and look at the germinate output to see how big the difference is.21:17
xnoxAt that point, you might add it as a package in your -meta and then figure out if you want to ship it on images and how.21:18
knomexnox, yyyyep.21:18
xnoxCause e.g. if -core ends up being 100MB you might go for mini.iso, if it ends up 400MB you might would want to roll a desktop.iso21:18
knomewe most probably do not want another ISO21:19
knomeand i doubt -core would end up being 100MB either..21:19
Unit193Not in my tests, no. :/21:19
knomeor generally either21:19
xnoxok. then your -desktop will need to be a strict supper-set of core, or ship the extra packages that are in -core and not in -desktop on the cdrom pool/21:19
knomeafter all, we want to make it a usable desktop21:19
xnoxcause e.g. ubiquity livefs does _not_ have oem-config. it gets installed from the package pool on the cd when needed ;-)21:20
xnoxknome: i remember puppy-linux was a <<30MB usable graphical desktop.21:20
knomewell, the oem config didn't work for us when we last tested it, so... :P21:20
knomebut we share the ubuntu core. not possible...21:20
Unit193xnox: But yeah, any chance of getting /usr/share/pixmaps/ubiquity.xpm and /usr/share/menu/ubiquity in ubiquity-frontend-gtk or somesuch?21:21
xnoxknome: ok, that was just an example. E.g. ndiswrapper is a .deb in the cdrom package pool and is not actually installed by default, but it is available of the desktop CD.21:21
knomei mean, i wouldn't mind, but...21:21
xnoxUnit193: yeah easy, just do a merge proposal against lp:ubiquity21:21
xnoxUnit193: and i'll take it.21:21
knomeUnit193, \o/21:21
Unit193xnox: Fantastic!  Got a default image I can/should convert rather than ask ochosi for one? :P21:21
* xnox just assumes that nobody cares about .xpm & menu's anymore. If xubuntu does then fine.21:22
Unit193It generally slips my mind too, unless something breaks.21:22
xnoxUnit193: it should be the ubiquity.svg as it's in the branch and/or ubuntu-default theme. It's quite generic "instlaler" looking icon.21:22
Unit193(Trick is doing it without breaking something.)21:24
xnoxUnit193: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/trusty/humanity-icon-theme/trusty/view/head:/Humanity/apps/48/ubiquity.svg21:25
xnoxUnit193: that's ubiquity icon to use as source.21:26
Unit193Great, will do.21:26
xnoxUnit193: i think it might be in ubiqutiy source, it's best if you add debian/rules which takes ubiquity.svg and converts to .xmp at build time.21:26
Unit193./data/icons/32x32/apps/ubiquity.svg ?21:26
Unit193(I'd use 32 as Debian menu policy wants that.)21:27
xnoxUnit193: yeap /data/ubiquity.svg21:27
Unit193Right, my bad.21:27
xnoxUnit193: .svg is actually size indepenant, but xmp does need size specified.21:28
xnoxUnit193: 32x32 looks ugly =) so I tend to do bigger than that ;-)21:28
knomexpm too.21:28
Unit193xnox: Understandable, and I could technically do that, but I was going to just try and follow policy. :P21:29
Unit193xnox: Hrm, not sure how best to handle the menu file...  data/Makefile.am is designed for .desktop files and /usr/share/applications/  Icon is a simple imagemagick convert.21:48
xnoxUnit193: usually people just write menu file by hand21:50
xnoxUnit193: and it can be installed by debian/ubiquity-frontend-gtk.install21:50
xnoxUnit193: or better by dh_installmenu21:50
xnoxUnit193: see $ man dh_installmenu21:50
Unit193xnox: Ah, wasn't sure if you wanted the RELEASE var.21:51
xnoxUnit193: call it ubiquity without RELEASE for now.21:52
Unit193xnox: You mean Ubuntu? ;)21:52
xnoxUnit193: RELEASE substitution happens on cdimage during image build, and placed on the desktop.21:52
xnoxUnit193: and we are not putting menu file on the desktop.21:53
xnoxUnit193: use something genering like "Ubuntu Installer" or "Ubiquity Installer"21:53
Unit193xnox: And just to confirm, you don't want to install with 'ubiquity' and have ubiquity itself figure out gtk_ui or not?21:55
xnoxUnit193: huh, no. it needs to be installed as "ubiquity" menu item xmp in the "ubiquity-frontend-gtk" package.21:56
xnoxUnit193: we are not going to use menu items on kde, and it will need a different one anyhow.21:56
Unit193Man, there's not a good way to test this...22:14
NoskcajMy comments to the meeting: 1. I'll try and get motu or xubuntu-dev next month, assuming people think i'm ready. 2. Xubuntu is definately using too much memory, thunar, xchat and bluetooth are the ones i've seen. 3. We did well in saucy minus the indicator issue. We really need to fix that this month so we've got plenty of time to fix all that. 22:28
brainwashthe printer-applet uses much memory too22:29
brainwashand it's not even visible anymore, or?22:29
Noskcajbrainwash: Open the task manager and see how much blueman has. before i disabled it, it said 40mb and i had never used bluetooth22:31
brainwashit's not even installed anymore22:34
brainwashgot rid of it long long time ago22:34
Unit193xnox: Back from food, http://paste.openstack.org/show/49580/ look sane?  I can't build it so not as tested as I'd like, it may not be doing what I want.22:46
xnoxUnit193: why can you not build it?22:47
xnoxUnit193: no that looks wrong. build-depends are generated from a script in d-i/ folder something like "update-control" i think.22:48
xnox$ mk-sbuild trusty22:48
xnox$ change into it, apt-get source ubiquity22:48
xnoxapply patch and do a debuild22:48
* skellat is not amused he missed the meeting earlier today due to having to orchestrate getting an automobile fixed...and assumes it wasn't what was meant in "service orchestration" in those Juju talks...23:25
Unit193Well if we assume the [18:48:16] < xnox> Unit193: no that looks wrong. build-depends are generated from a script in d-i/ folder something like "update-control" i think.23:34
Unit193Bah, lag.  If we assume that works, this builds then.23:35

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