[12:51] <eagles0513875> hey all
[12:51] <eagles0513875> hey belkinsa
[12:51] <eagles0513875> hey phillw
[12:52] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: are you around as I am responding to your emails lol
[12:54] <belkinsa> Not really, but I will in 5 minutes.
[12:55] <eagles0513875> ok lol belkinsa ping me when you are available
[12:58] <belkinsa> Okay, ready to help you.
[13:00] <belkinsa> eagles0513875: Do you have a LP account set up?
[13:00] <eagles0513875> yes already logged in with the single sign on :)
[13:00] <eagles0513875> logged in on both wiki and lp
[13:00] <belkinsa> Okay.
[13:00] <belkinsa> Go to this page wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles0513875
[13:01] <belkinsa> What does it give you?
[13:02] <eagles0513875> hold on
[13:03] <eagles0513875> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles051387 it gives me template options
[13:03] <belkinsa> Do create new page for that  one.
[13:04] <eagles0513875> waht do i call it
[13:04] <belkinsa> It's already named http://spacepestremoval.com/comic/hurry/
[13:04] <belkinsa> eagles0513875*
[13:04] <eagles0513875> ?
[13:04] <belkinsa> I forgot what was last copied
[13:05] <eagles0513875> lol
[13:05] <eagles0513875> not sure what that comic has to do with anythign but lol
[13:05] <eagles0513875> hey mhall119 :)
[13:05] <belkinsa> When you create a new page, you specify the name of the page via url of the page and then you make a new page that way.
[13:05] <belkinsa> You can do this for the sandbox wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles0513875/sandbox
[13:06] <belkinsa> But for the user info page , you can use this template: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MembershipTemplate
[13:06] <belkinsa> And an example of one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/belkinsa
[13:07] <eagles0513875> ok i create a new template page?
[13:07] <belkinsa> No.
[13:07] <eagles0513875> im lost
[13:07] <eagles0513875> so i am already in my sandbox page?
[13:07] <belkinsa> Give me a minute
[13:07] <belkinsa> No really, you need to finish creating it
[13:08] <belkinsa> It says this, "This page does not exist yet. You can create a new empty page, or use one of the page templates" and under that it has a link "create a new page" <--- click that and it will take you the editor.
[13:08] <eagles0513875> ok then what?
[13:09] <belkinsa> Do you get this message in  the editor text box, "Describe eagles0513875/sandbox here."?
[13:10] <eagles0513875> yes
[13:10] <eagles0513875> Describe eagles051387 here.
[13:10] <belkinsa> Now it's up to you if you want to edit the page now or you can just save it and edit it later.
[13:11] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: if you are up for it it would be great to have a page on the wiki about how to do this cuz im sure that would be great for others who want to contribute to have available
[13:11] <belkinsa> That's what I will do.
[13:12] <belkinsa> Also, I think that topic on having a final draft of the guide for us wasn't talked about in the meeting.
[13:12] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: how do i edit it now?
[13:14] <eagles0513875> what wiki infrastructure are they using in terms of software?
[13:14] <belkinsa> Under the "Ubuntu Wiki" banner, there is a white banner that says, " Edit|Info|Subscribe|Attachments|<username>|Logout|Help".
[13:14] <belkinsa> MoinMoin wiki.
[13:14] <belkinsa> http://moinmo.in/
[13:15] <belkinsa> Do you see that white banner?
[13:17] <eagles0513875> ;interesting :)
[13:17] <eagles0513875> i managed to figure out the title :)
[13:18] <belkinsa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpContents This could help but I agree, it would be better if there was user friendly guide.
[13:18] <belkinsa> This is for you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnPageCreation
[13:19] <eagles0513875> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles051387 :D
[13:19] <eagles0513875> thats a start
[13:19] <belkinsa> It is.  But are you planning to make a about you wiki page if you aiming for a Ubuntu Membership?
[13:21] <eagles0513875> oh
[13:21] <eagles0513875> wait im confused
[13:21] <eagles0513875> lol
[13:21] <eagles0513875> where do we start doing the documentation  work for the community wiki
[13:21] <eagles0513875> that is what im after
[13:21] <eagles0513875> or would you recommend I create an about me wiki page?
[13:22] <belkinsa> It's up to you though if you want an Ubuntu Membership.  Info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
[13:22] <belkinsa> It's not really but it's sometimes useful.
[13:22] <eagles0513875> ok
[13:22]  * belkinsa is planning to get mine
[13:23] <belkinsa> Also, I feel like your work will be a great help for the community if it all works out.
[13:24] <eagles0513875> ok I will work on my about me :)
[13:25] <belkinsa> It's up to you though, I'm not making you to do it.
[13:27] <belkinsa> But if you need a sandbox page you can always do wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles0513875/sandbox
[13:32] <eagles0513875> ty :)
[13:32] <belkinsa> Not a problem.
[13:32] <belkinsa> I started work on a wiki page called "SandboxPages" and it will act like the guide for this topic.
[13:33] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: its not linking my wiki page to my launchpad profile
[13:33] <eagles0513875> should it?
[13:34] <belkinsa> It can, if you add the link to the page itself but usually this tells you it SandboxPages (last edited 2013-10-25 08:31:40 by belkinsa) and this on the bottom of the page.  But if you want your wiki page to true to your username on LP, you should do so.
[13:35] <belkinsa> That was an example about the last edited message.
[13:35] <eagles0513875> im talking about the about me wiki page
[13:35] <belkinsa> Add the LP account (page) link to the page yourself.
[13:36] <eagles0513875> add it in launch pad or the other way round
[13:36] <belkinsa> [[https://launchpad.net/~eagles051387|My LP Page]]
[13:36] <belkinsa> No, on wiki page
[13:37] <belkinsa> Something like that.
[13:38] <eagles0513875> ahh ok
[13:38] <belkinsa> There is a temple (showed you the link already) to follow.
[13:40] <eagles0513875> the membership link
[13:40] <belkinsa> No
[13:40] <belkinsa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MembershipTemplate
[13:41] <belkinsa> You can do edit, copy and paste that on your page, and cancel the editing of THAT page.
[13:41] <belkinsa> That = as in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MembershipTemplate
[13:41] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: you know what i am noticing that we have no documentation on how to setup and configure launch pad now that
[13:42] <belkinsa> What?  Creating a user info page?
[13:42] <eagles0513875> no
[13:42] <eagles0513875> community page
[13:43] <belkinsa> As in a new page for a new topic?
[13:43] <eagles0513875> yes
[13:43] <eagles0513875> i can take that up if need be
[13:43] <eagles0513875> one step at a time
[13:44] <eagles0513875> does the community doc's have same deadlines as official docs
[13:44] <belkinsa> Good point.  I was thinking about writing that page myself, but if you want to start, you can.
[13:44] <belkinsa> I think not, but I'm not sure.
[13:44] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: reason i can take it up as my main focus is ubuntu server
[13:44] <eagles0513875> and i have a server to test on
[13:46] <belkinsa> That cool.
[13:46] <belkinsa> Anyways, I need to go.  When you have that page done, want to send it off to me so i can look at it?
[13:47] <eagles0513875> sure thing ill link you to the about me wiki page :)
[13:47] <belkinsa> Thanks.  You can do it via e-mail or PM.
[13:47] <belkinsa> See ya!
[13:47] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: ill see what i do
[14:53] <bkerensa> belkinsa: ello
[16:18] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: i will work on the wiki once i get to work
[18:55] <belkinsa> bkerensa: Hey there, you missed me though, I had to go class.  Did you me need me?
[19:33] <eagles0513875> hey littlegirl belkinsa pleia2
[19:33] <eagles0513875> mhall119:  as well :D and balloons
[19:33] <littlegirl> Hey there. (:
[19:33] <pleia2> morning
[19:33] <eagles0513875> how ar eyou littlegirl :)
[19:33] <eagles0513875> night here :D
[19:33] <balloons> howdy eagles0513875
[19:33] <littlegirl> Pretty good. You?
[19:34] <eagles0513875> not bad here at work after a web development course :D
[19:34] <eagles0513875> and im loving web development atm
[19:34] <eagles0513875> starting to work on a site for my gf's father even though he has not approved the quote yet im getting a jump start on it
[19:37] <eagles0513875> how are you pleia2
[19:42] <eagles0513875> balloons: :) how are things in the land of canonical administration
[19:43] <eagles0513875> server admin that is
[19:44] <balloons> eagles0513875, ?
[19:44] <eagles0513875> arent you a canonical server admin
[19:47] <balloons> eagles0513875, no
[19:47] <eagles0513875> oh my bad
[19:47] <balloons> :-) I work with the quality community
[19:47] <eagles0513875> ahh
[19:47] <eagles0513875> ok sry for the confusion
[19:47] <balloons> we do fun stuff like testing
[19:47] <eagles0513875> im getting my hands dirty starting to document some things that i have setup in community documentation
[19:48] <eagles0513875> with postfix + dovecot single domain setup as well as postfix dovecot mysql with virtual users and domain setup and postfix admin
[19:48] <pleia2> eagles0513875: good good, busy friday :)
[19:49] <eagles0513875> ya same here pleia2
[19:49] <eagles0513875> went from web development course came stright to work
[19:49] <eagles0513875> 6 more days until i go on a short vacation
[19:52] <eagles0513875> im getting excited pleia2
[19:55] <pleia2> I'm going to Hong Kong in a week, but it's not a vacation
[20:35] <eagles0513875> pleia2: im off to dublin for a short suprise vacation with my gf and her family for her bday
[20:37] <pleia2> eagles0513875: very nice, I love dublin :)
[20:37] <eagles0513875> will be my first time to go
[20:37] <eagles0513875> and im taking my camera :)
[20:38]  * pleia2 took lots of pictures http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/sets/72157625081321357/
[20:39] <eagles0513875> lol
[20:39] <pleia2> pro tip: don't do the guinness and the jameson tour right after each other :)
[20:39] <eagles0513875> pleia2: seeing your pics is making me more excited
[20:39] <eagles0513875> and why not
[20:39] <pleia2> drunk
[20:39] <pleia2> hehe
[20:40] <eagles0513875> haha how many did you drink
[20:40] <pleia2> well I had a couple guinesses on the guinness tour, then I got to be one of the lucky three selected for a tasting on the jameson tour
[20:40] <pleia2> so 4 shots there
[20:40] <pleia2> I also didn't eat much that day, so that doesn't help
[20:42] <eagles0513875> no it doesnt lol
[20:42] <eagles0513875> now back to web programming i go
[20:42] <eagles0513875> started a web development course and its really kool tbh
[20:47] <eagles0513875> pleia2: is tom davies in here?
[20:47] <eagles0513875> d smythies i mean
[20:49] <pleia2> eagles0513875: when he is here, he's dsmythies, but I think he reads the logs
[20:49] <eagles0513875> gotcha :)
[20:49] <eagles0513875> thanks for the heads up
[20:49] <eagles0513875> im working on a wiki page so i can become a member.
[20:52] <littlegirl> Hey there, godbyk, are you at your keyboard?
[20:57] <eagles0513875> littlegirl: hes a godbyk hes everywhere
[20:58] <littlegirl> hehe
[20:59] <littlegirl> I'm kind of stuck. I'm really motivated to do the docs right now (and that's not always the case) and I'm waiting to hear from him whether he's okay with the reformatting I'm doing of the layout of the docs before I continue doing more of them. I hope he's like Doug and comes in here and reads the logs. (:
[21:03] <godbyk> littlegirl: I'm here now.
[21:03] <godbyk> Just getting caught up on reading the channel backlog..
[21:03] <godbyk> Let me pull down your latest changes and take a look real quick.
[21:04] <littlegirl> godbyk: Oh, cool. Listen, can you grab any of the .page files that start with the letter a and see if you're cool with what I did to them - especially if you compare them with the GNOME versions of them in whatever you're using to diff them?
[21:04] <godbyk> littlegirl: Have you been using xmllint or some other tool to do the indentation and wrapping?
[21:04] <godbyk> Will do!
[21:04] <littlegirl> godbyk: Nope - my fingers are doing all the work. (:
[21:04] <godbyk> littlegirl: Wow!
[21:06] <littlegirl> godbyk: I can undo anything I did, and I'd rather know from you before I keep going. Right now I've got the pages that say, "Merge GNOME updates" in the spreadsheet marked in red in my personal file to let me know that I shouldn't do those yet until you've got them merged (because you'll probably have an easier time comparing them before I change their layout). The rest I intend to do, if that's okay with you. (:
[21:06]  * littlegirl types like the wind.
[21:06] <littlegirl> I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the fastest typist in the world. (:
[21:07] <eagles0513875> littlegirl: how many words per min
[21:07] <eagles0513875> i do about 60 if not faster now since the last time i checked
[21:07]  * eagles0513875 stays swearing at this web coding im doing
[21:07] <littlegirl> 130
[21:08] <eagles0513875> damn girl
[21:08] <eagles0513875> might wanna stock up on some shoes you probably burn through that rubber so fast at the speeds you travel :p
[21:08] <littlegirl> Yeah, and that's with proper punctuation, spelling, and (hopefully) grammar, and it's also removing any errors as they happen by quickly backspacing. (:
[21:09] <eagles0513875> littlegirl: what documentation are you working on the community stuff?
[21:10] <littlegirl> eagles0513875: The core documentation: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trusty
[21:10] <eagles0513875> kool :)
[21:11] <eagles0513875> im probably going to join the server guide team
[21:11] <godbyk> littlegirl: Did you rearrange the credit, link, desc, and revision tags?
[21:11] <eagles0513875> seeing as I am doign alot of technical setups :) would be great im sure to expand the documentation
[21:11] <littlegirl> I was working on the Kubuntu documentation, but they got away from bzr and Launchpad and are doing stuff in Trello and the wiki, which isn't really my type of thing, so I came over here to the Ubuntu team to see what needed doing. (:
[21:12] <eagles0513875> me im a kde user
[21:12] <eagles0513875> i cant stand unity or gnome for that matter :X
[21:12]  * eagles0513875 goes to run and hide
[21:12] <littlegirl> godbyk: Yep, I alphabetized them (except for link tags, which need to be in the order given, because they are generally alphabetized when viewed in Yelp or whatever).
[21:12] <littlegirl> eagles0513875: Me neither. I use Kubuntu. But you can still help Ubuntu and maybe run it in a VM. (:
[21:13] <godbyk> littlegirl: It looks like the GNOME docs use the order (link, revision, desc, credit) fairly consistently.
[21:13] <littlegirl> godbyk: I checked with the Mallard documentation and it says the info element can contain the other elements in any order, so I hope that was okay.
[21:13] <godbyk> So we should probably use that order, too, so it's easier to compare them and merge them.
[21:13] <littlegirl> godbyk: Oh, would you rather I use that instead? I can fix the ones I did. (:
[21:14] <godbyk> They can be in any order. It's not a problem for Mallard per se. It just makes it more difficult to compare GNOME and Ubuntu Docs line-by-line when some of the lines are shuffled in a different order.
[21:14] <eagles0513875> littlegirl: agreed speaking of i need to install kvm on here
[21:14] <eagles0513875> going to use that as my virtualization platform of choice :)
[21:15] <godbyk> Also, I think the only lines that get wrapped in the <info> block are long <desc> paragraphs.
[21:15] <godbyk> It appears all the others are kept on a one-tag-per-line basis.
[21:15] <littlegirl> godbyk: Okay, not a problem. I copied and pasted the order you just listed into my little personal file and will change the ones I did to that and do the rest in that order from now on. (:
[21:15] <littlegirl> godbyk: Sometimes the revision elements are long, too.
[21:16] <littlegirl> godbyk: Do you know who adds the revision pkversion elements? Those seem to use a different version number (like 0.1 or 0.2 or 0.3) instead of the Ubuntu release version numbers.
[21:16] <godbyk> littlegirl: I just grepped all the <revision> tags in the GNOME docs and they're all one-liners.  One <revision> per line.
[21:17] <godbyk> littlegirl: I suspect we inherited most of those from the GNOME docs.
[21:17] <littlegirl> godbyk: Yep, they're one line, but they're longer than 80 characters, and I'm hard-wrapping the text, and some of them have to be hard-wrapped. (:
[21:17] <littlegirl> godbyk: Not all of them - just some. (:
[21:17] <godbyk> Ah, well, we'll have to break the 80-column limit, then, I guess.
[21:17] <godbyk> (I've never much cared for the 80-column limit, but that's just my personal preference.)
[21:18] <littlegirl> godbyk: Do you have a number in mind?
[21:18] <littlegirl> godbyk: It's what the GNOME docs seem to use (except when someone edited a file and added some text and didn't wrap it), so I started using it. (:
[21:18] <godbyk> littlegirl: Well, they are wrapping paragraphs. I'll see if they have a consistent line limit there. But the revision tags are never wrapped (in the GNOME docs, at least).
[21:19]  * littlegirl thinks the GNOME team needs to let her at their documentation. (:
[21:20] <godbyk> littlegirl: Ha! They might just let you!
[21:20] <littlegirl> godbyk: My personal preference would be to not hard-wrap anything, but different diff programs (and emails, if you have yourself set to be notified of changes) wrap at seventy some-odd characters per line, so even eighty is breaking that limit.
[21:21] <godbyk> littlegirl: You might look at the xmllint and xmlindent programs. The benefit of using those (with decent settings) is that it (1) automates most of the work so you don't have to hand-edit all the files, and (2) means I can run the GNOME docs through the same program with the same settings to make it easy to compare Ubuntu and GNOME docs.
[21:22] <littlegirl> godbyk: The problem is that the layout of the docs isn't consistent throughout. Sometimes everything is nicely indented and wrapped, and other times multiple tags will be on one line (like </p></item><item><p>, and I'm not sure xmllint could look for those and fix them, could it?
[21:23] <littlegirl> I'm thinking some of this stuff needs literal surgery, and it's only going to be possible to do it manually. The rest could probably be automated. (:
[21:23] <godbyk> littlegirl: xmllint can do things like ensure one tag per line with nested indentation and the like.
[21:24] <littlegirl> godbyk: Ooooh, nice! Do you know how to do it?
[21:24] <godbyk> But you're right that those programs can't do everything automatically.
[21:24] <godbyk> So we'll still have to do some things by hand.
[21:24] <littlegirl> Maybe we could run it and then babysit it afterward to make sure it got everything right, and fix anything it didn't. (:
[21:26] <godbyk> littlegirl: You could try "xmllint --format mypage.page"
[21:26] <godbyk> xmllint has a ton of options you can play with.
[21:26] <godbyk> I'd probably try to find some that are relatively close to those used in the GNOME docs.
[21:26] <godbyk> And if none of the built-in style features work, we could always whip up our own formatting script to do things just the way we like. :-)
[21:27] <littlegirl> If we find one that works well, can't we run it on both to make them the same, for comparison's sake?
[21:27] <godbyk> littlegirl: Yeah, that's my thinking.
[21:28] <godbyk> littlegirl: Then even if the Ubuntu and GNOME docs are formatted slightly differently, we can just run the GNOME docs through our formatter to make them look like ours and then do the comparison after that.
[21:28] <littlegirl> godbyk: Okay, I'll read up on xmllint and play around with it and see what I can come up with. (:
[21:28] <littlegirl> godbyk:
[21:28] <godbyk> There's also xmlindent. I'm not sure if it has more or fewer formatting options.
[21:28] <littlegirl> Great! Then even if there's a new version later, the same thing can be done. (:
[21:29] <godbyk> Yep!
[21:29] <littlegirl> I don't have that. It's not a default program?
[21:29] <godbyk> And I can easily update my crosscheck.sh script to format the Ubuntu and GNOME docs through xmllint or whatever before loading the results into meld for comparison.
[21:29]  * godbyk likes shell scripts
[21:29]  * godbyk is lazy
[21:29] <littlegirl> Same here, but not the lazy part. I just love scripts. (:
[21:30] <godbyk> littlegirl: Looks like there's an xmlindent package that I have installed.
[21:30] <littlegirl> Now would this be a formal script that gets added to the repository so anyone can run it, or is this something you and I are working on unofficially?
[21:30]  * littlegirl always likes to know her parameters (:
[21:30] <littlegirl> I'll have to install it and check it out if xmllint doesn't do what I want. (:
[21:31] <godbyk> littlegirl: I can certainly add it to the repository.
[21:31] <godbyk> Right now it's just a one-line script.
[21:31] <godbyk> It just runs this:  meld $1 ~/git/gnome-user-docs/gnome-help/C/$1
[21:31] <littlegirl> I have yet to try it. (:
[21:31] <godbyk> where $1 is the filename I want to compare.
[21:31] <godbyk> Saves me from typing the the path to the gnome docs all the time.
[21:32]  * littlegirl immediately steals the meld command
[21:32] <littlegirl> I had no idea you could run Meld from the command line. (:
[21:32] <godbyk> meld is great for diffing files. I recommend it.
[21:32] <littlegirl> Oh, I use it, but I use the GUI and browse to the files manually. I had no idea I could type them in (which I much prefer). (:
[21:32] <godbyk> Ah, gotcha.
[21:33] <belkinsa> All, was the draft of how to contribute talked about during the meeting?
[21:34] <godbyk> belkinsa: Not in any detail. Only that we should create one.
[21:34] <pleia2> I owe an email to the list about basic contributing to trusty
[21:35] <belkinsa> or any release.
[21:35] <littlegirl> Are you guys talking about contributing to the wiki?
[21:35] <pleia2> well, the idea is for every release and call for participation we send out an email with the basics
[21:35] <pleia2> so my email will specificially reference trusty in this case
[21:36] <belkinsa> Because I feel like we talked about many ways to use resources to write and check wiki pages on the list.
[21:36] <belkinsa> Oh, right, duh.
[21:36] <pleia2> that way we don't have people reading an "it's open!" and then have to dig through docs to figure out how to do something
[21:36] <belkinsa> Wiki pages and official docs.
[21:36] <pleia2> I'm referring to the shipped documentation, not wiki
[21:36] <littlegirl> godbyk: I ran the xmllint --format pagename.page command and am not completely satisfied with the results. I'll have to look whether there's a way to tweak it. (:
[21:36] <belkinsa> Oh, then never mind.
[21:37] <littlegirl> pleia2: Ah, okay. Well, if you need any help with the How To Use Bazaar or make changes to the repository files or commit and push them, I'd be happy to collaborate. (:
[21:38] <godbyk> littlegirl: There are a bunch of command-line options you can explore. See xmlline --help.
[21:38] <belkinsa> pleia2, mind if I work on  a guide for the wiki?
[21:38] <godbyk> littlegirl: xmlindent --help has some options, too.
[21:38] <belkinsa> Or at least to add to the one we have.
[21:38] <littlegirl> godbyk: Yep, I'm already in the man page and will check the --help afterward. If I can "bully" it into behaving the way I like, I'll be one happy camper. (:
[21:38] <pleia2> belkinsa: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki
[21:39] <pleia2> belkinsa: if there are docs missing from those pages, please do work to improve them :)
[21:39] <godbyk> littlegirl: But if none of those work the way we want, we can whip up our own script to do the formatting the way we want. XML is pretty easy to work with.
[21:39] <belkinsa> Gotcha.
[21:39] <littlegirl> godbyk: Yeah, that's true. Okay, I'm game. (:
[21:39] <pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide should have most details though
[21:39] <godbyk> littlegirl: I think those existing scripts may not work quite like we want because they probably don't have a way to say 'wrap <p> tags but not <revision> tags', for instance.
[21:39] <belkinsa> It's more of how one can contribute to the wiki that is missing.
[21:40] <belkinsa> Oh, there's the guide that I needed!
[21:40] <littlegirl> godbyk: Well, it's occurring to me that even if they don't, at least if we ran that one simple command (without even inventing another) on all the files, at least they'd all be consistent in their presentation (unless it screws up something in any of them, but we'll be babysitting). (:
[21:42] <littlegirl> I wrote this a while ago, and although it's for Kubuntu, it gives an idea of the kind of stuff I can write: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/SystemDocumentation
[21:42] <pleia2> belkinsa: that WikiGuide page is linked twice on the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki - maybe you can figure out a way to improve its visiblity on that page?
[21:42] <pleia2> belkinsa: I've seen these pages way, way too many times, my brain is useless :)
[21:43] <belkinsa> I can and there is also some other things I want to bring up.  For example Sandbox pages is one.
[21:43] <littlegirl> Sorry, that should have been directed to pleia2.
[21:43] <pleia2> "of course the link is there and there, it's always been there!"
[21:43] <godbyk> littlegirl: True. As long as the elements stay in the same order, the indentation and wrapping and whatnot don't matter too much.
[21:43] <pleia2> littlegirl: yeah, we re-wrote this last cycle: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide
[21:43] <littlegirl> godbyk: And even if we don't love it, it's a baseline from which everything else can fall into place. (:
[21:44] <belkinsa> pleia2: Couldn't there be a ref to the guide right on the home page of wiki.ubuntu.com?
[21:44] <godbyk> littlegirl: Yeah. :)
[21:44] <littlegirl> pleia2: Ah, so you already have it in Ubuntu. (:
[21:44] <pleia2> belkinsa: no, wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community/ are different things
[21:45] <belkinsa> No- as in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/.
[21:45] <pleia2> belkinsa: we don't want references to how to get involved with help.ubuntu.com/community/ on the main wiki.ubuntu.com page, it would confuse people :\
[21:45] <littlegirl> godbyk: Well, let me have a bit of a play with xmllint and see if I can't make it dance. If not, then we can go ahead and use the basic command as our baseline for everything, and just have that as a very small script that we let users know about in the repository for any future edits or additions. (:
[21:45] <belkinsa> I was thinking under Get Involved heading.
[21:45] <belkinsa> But you maybe right.
[21:46] <littlegirl> pleia2: I feel very strongly that wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com are badly named and really, really, really should be renamed.
[21:46] <pleia2> belkinsa: I don't think it's fair to give a link to the docs team stuff there, there are dozens of teams within ubuntu
[21:46]  * littlegirl throws another really onto the pile for good measure
[21:46] <pleia2> littlegirl: indeed, it confuses everyone, but it's a bit too late to change things
[21:46] <littlegirl> pleia2: Hopefully it's not too late. I've been using Kubuntu for years, and I'm still confused to this day and have to look it up because I can't remember it. It's even worse for newbies. (:
[21:47] <pleia2> help.ubuntu.com/community should probably be docs.ubuntu.com as it's own wiki
[21:47] <belkinsa> +1
[21:47] <pleia2> but changing that now would be super painful, and I don't think we have the resources to do it (community + canonical IS resources)
[21:48] <littlegirl> pleia2: That's a shame. Hopefully they're at least talking about it and dusting it off at meetings from time to time so that maybe at some point it will get done. (:
[21:58] <shaunm> littlegirl: I guarantee the gnome docs team would let you at their documentation
[21:58] <shaunm> (responding to stuff said earlier)
[21:58] <littlegirl> shaunm: They might hesitate if they knew I use KDE, though. (:
[21:59] <shaunm> to clarify things: the order of any child elements of info, including link elements, does not matter (except in very rare corner cases that you should strive to avoid)
[21:59] <godbyk> shaunm: They only matter to me when I'm comparing the Ubuntu docs that we've inherited from the GNOME docs.
[22:00] <littlegirl> shaunm: I'm under the impression, though, that link elements display in the order they're placed in the document, though, right? In which case, if it's a matter of whether they display in alphabetical order in the raw document or whether they do so in the displayed document, the displayed document would trump, I think). (:
[22:00] <littlegirl> Yeah, and I'm trying not to make the comparisons too rough for godbyk when I do all this "violent" stuff to the docs. (:
[22:00] <shaunm> they are displayed alphabetical by their title. the order the link elements come in doesn't affect anything
[22:01] <littlegirl> If you look at all the .page files that start with a, they're all very pretty in their raw state, now. (:
[22:01] <littlegirl> shaunm: Oh, you just made me very happy. Then I could go through and alphabetize them in their raw state, too. (:
[22:02] <littlegirl> I literally like Mallard and Bzr so much that I'm thinking of using Mallard for my personal documents since I already use Bzr, and they fit so nicely together. (:
[22:02] <shaunm> I suppose the order of the link elements might make a difference if you link to two pages that have the same title. that's one of those very rare corner cases I mentioned that you should strive to avoid :)
[22:02] <shaunm> \o/
[22:02] <littlegirl> shaunm: True. (:
[22:02] <littlegirl> LOL, let me guess. You're a Mallard developer?
[22:03] <shaunm> yes, guilty
[22:04] <littlegirl> shaunm: Nice work! I like it better than DocBook! (:
[22:04] <shaunm> get KDE to switch ;)
[22:05] <godbyk> shaunm: I skimmed through your MEP about the <info> element the other day. I don't have any objections to it. Have there been a lot of requests for that sort of extension?
[22:05] <littlegirl> I wish I could. They've gone off of the repository entirely with the main body of the documentation and have it on the wiki. I'm *not* a wiki person, so I've kind of stopped helping out for the most part, although I still contribute sometimes. (:
[22:06] <shaunm> godbyk: it comes up occasionally
[22:07] <shaunm> or rather, something comes up that would be handled by it, like doing alt titles on expanders on figures
[22:07] <godbyk> shaunm: One idea that I had that would be helpful is to be able to add a package attribute to the revision element so you could specify that a page/section/whatever of documentation corresponds to a particular version of a package/application.
[22:07] <godbyk> Then I could run a script to find outdated documentation by comparing the documented package versions against the current package version.
[22:09] <godbyk> shaunm: Oh, and on another topic.. my earlier question about the comment block placement (i.e., it doesn't work at the end of a page). Is there anything in the documentation that explains why it's currently disallowed?
[22:20] <shaunm> godbyk: that's what pkgversion is for. 'yelp-check status' even lets you filter based on it
[22:21] <shaunm> as for comment blocks, basically you can't put any blocks after sections, mostly because it's difficult to come up with a sensible rendering for it. the same limitation exists in docbook
[22:22] <littlegirl> shaunm: There are many documents that have two revision elements inside the info element. I realize you can have as many as you like. What I'm wondering, though, is that some are revision version and others are revision pkgversion version, and the ones with pkgversion version have a different version number in them. Do you know who adds that element and whether it's important to preserve or update those versions?
[22:22] <shaunm> and not being able to put blocks in general (e.g. paragraphs) after sections never seems to bother people, but there have been a surprisingly large number of requests for comments after sections
[22:24] <littlegirl> shaunm: To embellish that a bit, the ones with revision version use the Ubuntu release number as their version. The ones with revision pkgversion version use 0.1 or 0.2 or 0.3 and I'm not sure what those represent.
[22:24] <godbyk> shaunm: Yeah, I found a few GNOME docs that had comments after sections. I may submit an MEP for that since it shouldn't impact rendering adversely.
[22:24] <shaunm> my guess is you're seeing version numbers inherited from gnome
[22:25] <shaunm> and gnome earlier on was very sloppy about how it used them
[22:25] <godbyk> shaunm: Per the pkgversion attribute, while it specifies the version, it doesn't specify the package *name*.
[22:26] <godbyk> Though I suppose if pkgversion is never used by yelp, etc., then I could use a packagename-version string for the pkgversion attribute.
[22:26] <littlegirl> So godbyk, can we get rid of those versions from the docs and just add the pkgversion attribute to the revision element and only have one revision element per document?
[22:26] <littlegirl> Some developer might want to know which package version a document is for, so keeping those is probably a good idea even if Yelp doesn't use them.
[22:26] <godbyk> littlegirl: Well, having the GNOME revision elements is handy as we don't always want the latest GNOME docs (since Ubuntu lags behind a bit).
[22:27] <littlegirl> godbyk: Ah, okay, that makes sense. (:
[22:34] <littlegirl> godbyk: I don't see any way to customize what xmllint does to a file, so we can just decide to use it as is or get people to install something else (not recommended) or write something ourselves. Which is most appealing to you?
[22:35] <godbyk> Hmm.. well, writing something ourselves shouldn't be too onerous. I could probably whip up a Python script pretty quickly.
[22:35] <godbyk> The benefit of having our own script is that we can customize the formatting to our exacting standards. :)
[22:35] <littlegirl> We should be able to help with it. My son and I are learning Python, and we're newbs, but already know a surprising amount. (:
[22:35] <godbyk> Ah, cool. We'll you're welcome to take first crack at it if you like.
[22:35]  * littlegirl can be kind of exacting at times (:
[22:36] <godbyk> You could also have the script handle the updating of the version numbers and status info.
[22:36] <godbyk> Might save you even more typing!
[22:36] <littlegirl> LOL
[22:37] <littlegirl> Anything we write might be a bit clunky and need some polishing, though, since we're still very definitely newbs. (:
[22:37] <godbyk> No problem. I don't write enough Python to be particularly good at it, either.
[22:38] <littlegirl> godbyk: If there's one that does version number and status updates, it should probably be a separate script full of sternly worded warnings. (:
[22:38] <littlegirl> godbyk: Oh, cool, then we can stumble through it together. (:
[22:38] <godbyk> That's true.