[00:14] <hallyn_> rbasak: the mangle inside the container did not seem to work
[00:15] <hallyn_> sarnold: you're an iptables pro.  do you know of a way to insert a rule only if the rule hasn't previously been inserted?
[00:20] <rbasak> hallyn_: I didn't actually try that myself. Did you reverse the mangle rule appropriately?
[00:28] <hallyn_> rbasak: it's possible i did not
[00:35] <hallyn_> rbasak: what would 'reverse appropriately' mean?  I only have one nic available there (eth0) and you cant do inbound mangle rules.
[00:35] <hallyn_> so all i did was s/lxcbr0/eth0/
[00:40] <sarnold> hallyn_: sorry, I'm no pro, I barely speak iptables.
[00:43] <rbasak> hallyn_: just to match on inbound instead of outbound. I didn't know you can't do inbound mangle rules. My iptables(8) says you can since 2.4.18?
[00:43] <hallyn_> drat.  ok, thanks.  i'll just make a judgement call then (soonish) on whether to parse iptables -L or use a file under /run.
[00:44] <rbasak> hallyn_: it's Medium/Low importance for me. The workaround is pretty trivial. The only pain was before I found the bug.
[00:45] <hallyn_> ok, prio changed, thanks.
[00:45] <rbasak> hallyn_: I figure that it's Debian that's (now) buggy since consensus seems to be that dhclient should be patched. So it feels better to me to patch the container if possible.
[00:46] <hallyn_> rbasak: on my saucy laptop:  iptables v1.4.18: Can't use -i with POSTROUTING
[00:46] <hallyn_> oh, heh
[00:46] <hallyn_> i misread
[00:48] <rbasak> hallyn_: in the container I'd guess something like: iptables -t mangle -A INPUT -i eth0 -p udp --dport bootpc -j CHECKSUM --checksum-fill
[00:48] <hallyn_> rbasak: i'm using iptables -t mangle -A PREROUTING -i eth0 -p udp --dport bootpc -j CHECKSUM --checksum-fill
[00:48] <hallyn_> (didn't work
[00:48] <hallyn_> INPUT doesn't either
[00:49] <rbasak> Oh, dport -> sport
[00:49] <rbasak> No, perhaps not
[00:49] <hallyn_> (sorry, flurry of kids arms and legs all around, my attention to detail is lacking0
[00:49] <rbasak> If it doesn't work then fair enough. I don't know enough about netfilter to know why
[00:51] <hallyn_> yeah still no go.  I think it has to do with the fact that eth0 doesn't exactly get routed, since it's bridged.  but not sure
[00:51] <hallyn_> (-j OUTPUT -o eth0 did not work either.  tried all the combos by now)
[00:52] <hallyn_> someone somewhere who understand this is chuckling at us right now
[00:53]  * hallyn_ out
[00:53] <sarnold> alexey? or harald?  :)
[00:53] <hallyn_> alexey for sure
[01:37] <xIlluzionx> Hi
[01:59] <pmatulis> hi
[02:03] <xgeek-cub> unstalling the ubuntu server ; the install process ask about host name
[02:03] <xgeek-cub> should i add the domain that i bought for my VPS here?
[02:30] <jotterbot1234> why can't I
[02:31] <jotterbot1234> tail -f /var/log/syslog
[02:31] <jotterbot1234> getting permission denied
[02:31] <jotterbot1234> but I have added myself to the adm group
[02:31] <jotterbot1234> with: sudo usermod -a -G adm <username>
[02:31] <jotterbot1234> what's the deal?
[02:32] <hallyn_> jotterbot1234: have you logged out and back in since then, or done newgrp adm?
[02:32] <jotterbot1234> hmm
[02:32] <jotterbot1234> I have rebooted one, let me see something.....
[02:32] <jotterbot1234> hallyn_: what does newgrp adm do?
[02:32] <jotterbot1234> the adm group already exists
[02:33] <hallyn_> jotterbot1234: check 'man newgrp(1)' - newgrp logs you into a new group
[02:35] <jotterbot1234> hallyn_: thanks, will do
[02:35] <hallyn_> np
[03:27] <xgeek-cub> i want to update my ubuntu server fully what commands should i issue?
[03:30] <mardraum> update the existing install or update to the latest version, eg 13.10 ?
[03:55] <xgeek-cub> mardraum: : http://askubuntu.com/questions/368848/upgrade-and-update-ubuntu-server
[04:00] <mardraum> xgeek-cub: apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade
[04:03] <xgeek-cub> mardraum: the dist-upgrade changes my version from 12.04 LTS???
[04:06] <mardraum> no
[04:06] <mardraum> that would be do-release-upgrade command
[04:10] <xgeek-cub> mardraum: reallysure??? iam doing it right now? going?
[04:10] <mardraum> pardon?
[04:10] <xgeek-cub> mardraum: i am confirming
[05:19] <babinlonston> hi all ,
[05:20] <babinlonston> I have a VPS from DigitalOcean , And now i need to send mail from my vps to some gmail email id or to some else how can i install and configure mail server in it to send out my vps
[05:23] <sarnold> babinlonston: cool :) https://www.digitalocean.com/community/articles/how-to-install-and-setup-postfix-on-ubuntu-12-04
[05:24] <babinlonston> sarnold: this not supported me to send out of vps , its sending mail only to the local users in VPS , and already i did it
[05:25] <sarnold> babinlonston: oh. bother. I guess I should have read beyond the headline.
[05:30] <sarnold> babinlonston: the bits here about spf and dkim might be helpful: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Postfix
[08:30] <babinlonston> I have a VPS and installed with Ubuntu 12.04 how can i setup ftp for the /var/www/ Directory , I cant give the logins of VPS to Developer so i need to setup a ftp
[08:33] <andol> babinlonston: Why on earth would you want to use FTP instead of something sane like ssh/sftp?
[08:35] <babinlonston> andol: what ever , just the developer need to access the /var/www/ directory using filezilla or any other client , i Don't want to provide him my credentials
[08:38] <esmic> hey
[08:38] <andol> babinlonston: Then you create an additional user, and give that user access to that folder.
[08:39] <andol> ...which is kind of what you would need to do with ftp too.
[08:39] <babinlonston> andol: ok
[08:39] <esmic> i have a question about ubuntu, and im bit newb
[08:40] <babinlonston> andol:  did i need to give the user with full permission 777
[08:45] <andol> babinlonston: 777 really isn't a permission you set on a user, but on a folder, which almost always is a bad idea. Instead you should change the user and/or group ownership, depening on what other users might too need to use that directly.
[08:50] <babinlonston> ok
[09:00] <Guest23822> hi, for ufw, I have put http://paste.ubuntu.com/6334657/ to before.rules, and then stop ufw and start ufw. it does not work. I can still access websites 80 ports directly in chrome browser. can anyone help? thanks.
[09:25] <xgeek-cub> hostname -F /etc/hostname  returns nothing but i have rockspacefn in the /etc/hostname
[10:41] <MrQuist> ZZzzzzz....
[11:07] <dzeko> What's the bast way to fully backup your server?
[11:16] <Patrickdk> take the drive out, and use it as a football for thanksgiving with your relatives
[11:16] <Patrickdk> !best
[11:18] <dzeko> ok, the what's is nowadays usually way to fully backup your ubuntu home server. What do you use?
[11:19] <Patrickdk> normally I'll just copy the vmdk file
[11:29] <dzeko> its not a virtual server, its just a old fashion remote dedicated server :)
[11:33] <Patrickdk> dzeko, generally, if you want that, two options, reboot into a backup cdrom or so
[11:33] <Patrickdk> or use lvm and take a snapshot
[11:34] <Patrickdk> personally, I never liked either, and stuck with just coping the data I needed, like /var /etc and sometimes other stuff
[11:45] <sgo11> hi, any squid expert here? My squid setup does not work and get Forwarding loop detected warning. Before setup http_port 3128 transparent and iptables, everything work fine. but after forward local 80 port to 3128. and run chrome in the same machine as squid, I met this issue. thanks.
[11:48] <bazhang> sgo11, try #squid yet?
[11:48] <sgo11> bazhang, nobody in #squid is awake. I kept asking this question in a whole day. nobody replied....
[12:15] <babinlonston> which operating hyperviosr we can install in a Dedicated server ? which is located in remote ?
[12:21] <patdk-wk_> babinlonston, any you want?
[12:22] <babinlonston> patdk-wk_:  yes we going to buy a Dedicated server , i need to know which hypervisor is good , and i need to install and  manage it from remote
[12:23] <patdk-wk_> heh? good?
[12:23] <patdk-wk_> you have several choices
[12:23] <patdk-wk_> vmware, hyperv, xen, kvm, maybe even virtualbox
[12:23] <babinlonston> patdk-wk_: i need it in Linux and want to be in open source
[12:49] <EvilPenguin> Hello is anyone here able to help with a DNS problem (BIND9)?
[12:50] <MrQuist> EvilPenguin, i might try, state your troubles.
[12:50] <EvilPenguin> Hello! :) The problem I'm having is that doing an nslookup doesnt give the server name but rather the ip address
[12:51] <EvilPenguin> e.g nslookup google.com will return server: (IP of DNS Server)
[12:51] <EvilPenguin> I rewrote the reverse lookup zone twice
[12:51] <EvilPenguin> restarted bind9 and incremented the serial and still the same problem
[12:52] <EvilPenguin> can show you screenshots of config files if you want
[12:58] <sgo11> bazhang, hi, the problem is fixed by adding "-m owner ! --uid-owner proxy" to iptables. found by MrQuist in askubuntu.com. The problem is caused because squid is forwarding traffic back to port 80. I use iptables to forward 80 to 3128. it forms a loop. thanks a lot for your time. just FYI.
[13:00] <MrQuist> ah, bye EvilPenguin
[14:29] <xgeek-cub> hello
[14:29] <bgardner> xgeek-cub: Hello
[14:30] <xgeek-cub> could I;or better said should I add dotdeb.org to my repos; in orther to install php-fpm?
[14:30] <xgeek-cub> is it a good practice?
[14:31] <remix_tj> xgeek-cub: why you need external repos? there is all you need in ubuntu's standard repositories
[14:32] <xgeek-cub> So no dodeb repository?
[14:32] <xgeek-cub> ok
[14:32] <jpds> xgeek-cub: No, it's not.
[14:33] <jpds> xgeek-cub: Those repos don't get any oversight from the security team - so you're on your own if there's a need security update.
[14:33] <xgeek-cub> oh yes; because they are 3rd party
[14:33] <bgardner> xgeek-cub: Yeah, don't do that.  You won't be happy with the outcome.
[14:33] <xgeek-cub> what about backport repository in ubuntu
[14:34] <xgeek-cub> bgardner : iwouldn't do that thanks
[14:35] <jpds> xgeek-cub: There's a large "N.B." comment above it in sources.list you might want to read.
[14:37] <xgeek-cub> jpds: idon't have the backport line in my repo at all
[14:37] <jpds> Well, it's just says: "please note that software in backports WILL NOT receive any review or updates from the Ubuntu security team."
[14:38] <xgeek-cub> jpds: so the same unhappy endding (outcome)
[14:39] <jpds> There's a php5-fpm package in the repo.
[14:39] <jpds> !info php5-fpm precise
[14:40] <patdk-wk> but he wanted php-fpm not php5-fpm
[14:42] <jpds> patdk-wk: Not the same thing?
[14:42] <jpds> Not that I've ever used it before.
[14:42] <patdk-wk> php-fpm is rhel naming
[14:42] <jpds> But: http://php-fpm.org/download/ --- "PHP-FPM is now included in PHP core as of PHP 5.3.3."
[14:43] <patdk-wk> :)
[14:43] <xgeek-cub> why when i am trying to ap-get install nginx-extra ; the package nginx-full wants to remove it self
[14:44] <xgeek-cub> jpds so no php-fm needed at all no apt-get install php-fpm .....
[14:44] <jpds> xgeek-cub: But you can: apt-get install php5-fpm.
[14:45] <xgeek-cub> jpds: why should i do that if it is already there?
[14:46] <jpds> I don't understand what it is you're trying to do then.
[14:47] <xgeek-cub> installing php mysql nginx andphpmyadmin
[14:47] <xgeek-cub> but installing nginx-extra removes the nginx that i just apt-get ed
[14:48] <jpds> xgeek-cub: Yes, see: apt-cache show nginx-extras and apt-cache show nginx-full.
[14:48] <jpds> -extras is -full AND more.
[15:13] <xgeek-cub> what is this package? php5-mysql!
[15:22] <ogra_> xgeek-cub, apt-cache show php5-mysql ... the Description should tell you
[16:14] <Patero-ng> I want to know how to find out how much left I have for my lease of my ip on ubuntu server 13.10
[16:20] <hazmat> hallyn_, have you seen this one .. https://github.com/dotcloud/docker/issues/2476
[16:20] <hazmat> several folks are having issues with lxc in 13.10 and docker
[16:23] <hallyn_> hazmat: no haven't seen it.  (don't use docker)
[16:23] <hallyn_> kirkland uses it...
[16:24] <hazmat> hallyn_, there's a couple rounds of comments on the mailing list and on #docker about the issue this morning
[16:25] <hallyn_> which mailing list
[16:25] <hallyn_> presumably they need to fix something in their configs - maybe add pstore to their container fstabs?
[16:25] <hallyn_> (that's not an lxc issue.  it's a mountal/kernel issue)
[16:26] <hazmat> hallyn_, docker user ml
[16:26] <hazmat> hallyn_, installing from lxc daily ppa seems to resolve for folks.
[16:26] <hallyn_> that's interesting
[16:27] <hallyn_> (that, on precise, is what i mostly use)
[16:29] <hazmat> smoser, hallyn_, incidentally that 3.8 hwe kernel thingy.. seems to have come from there docs on the topic.. http://docs.docker.io/en/latest/installation/ubuntulinux/ no reasoning behind it though
[16:29] <hallyn_> hazmat: only thing which should not work in 3.2 kernel that i can think of is lxc-attach <shrug>  it's a useful enough feature that hwe kernel may be worthwhile
[16:30]  * hallyn_ goes to see why his printer is not printing
[16:30] <hallyn_> "what am i paying you for!"
[16:30] <arcimboldo> hi all, I have a problem with OpenStack, it stopped starting instances, is someone able/willing to help me?
[16:31] <hazmat> hallyn_, ic, afaik there not using that, really  they only use lxc-start.
[16:33] <hallyn_> that's why i made my suggestion on the m-l :)  <shrug>
[17:05] <Underbyte> what exactly is installed when you select the "Virtual Machine Host" option in the Ubuntu Installation package selection dialog?
[17:16] <adam_g> smoser, around?
[17:19] <sarnold> Underbyte: here's a list of what it wanted to do on my laptop: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6336744/
[17:20] <Underbyte> okay, so it doesn't install as openstack?
[17:20] <Underbyte> *install openstack
[17:21] <sarnold> Underbyte: right
[18:22] <Underbyte> sarnold: so what does the 'ubuntu server cloud edition' do differently then? does it just include a package that it automatically installs? or is something a little more special going on here?
[18:25] <sarnold> Underbyte: sorry, I'm unfamiliar with that; I know we've got a variety of tarballs and iso images available for installing depending upon needs.. some can be quite small, made especially for VPS use in containers or similar..
[18:25] <Underbyte> http://www.ubuntu.com/cloud
[18:26] <sarnold> wow that page is all over the place :) hehe
[18:30] <photon> Which is the earliest ubuntu server version which contains apache httpd 2.4?
[18:30] <err-or> photon: what you mean with 'easy'?
[18:31] <photon> err-or: I didn't say easy, I said earliest :P
[18:31] <photon> as in, lowest version.
[18:31] <err-or> damn.
[18:31]  * err-or hides
[18:31] <sarnold> photon: saucy: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apache2
[18:32] <photon> so, Saucy Salamander
[18:32] <photon> Thank you
[18:33] <photon> any way to get the same for the G++ compiler? https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/saucy/+source/gcc is more or less a 404.
[18:35] <sarnold> photon: yeah, that's harder to track down; gcc uses versioned packages, gcc-4.8, gcc-4.7, gcc-4.6, gcc-4.5, gcc-4.4, gcc-4.3, gcc-4.1 are all in supported versions of ubuntu
[18:35] <photon> I'm wondering when 4.9 will be supported.
[18:36] <err-or> sarnold: any special kind of interest in that? else i would recommend gentoo or something else.. :)
[18:39] <sarnold> photon: it'll happen in the U series, if it happens. we set the toolchain to a fixed point before the series opens. see e.g. http://lwn.net/Articles/571330/
[18:39] <sarnold> err-or: I've spent enough of my life waiting for software to compile already :)
[18:40] <photon> sarnold: U series? Sorry, I'm not enough familiar with Ubuntu jargon ;)
[18:40] <err-or> sarnold: have fun with that :)
[18:41] <sarnold> photon: sorry -- whatever comes after 'trusty'  :)
[18:41] <photon> sarnold: oh, so you meant, it's already too late for trusty, but probably after that?
[18:41] <sarnold> photon: right
[18:41] <photon> thanks
[18:42] <photon> oh, U series, because U comes after T.
[18:42]  * photon is a bit slow today.
[19:02] <jrwren> really? I'm surprised it won't make trusty
[19:05] <sarnold> jrwren: we decide on toolchain before the dev series opens; I don't know how one version or another is chosen, I just trust that those who choose do a good job :) hehe
[19:10] <photon> g++ 4.9 implements C++11 regex. I've been waiting for this for years. :)
[19:10] <photon> (by which I mean, I'm happy if it comes with U. better late than never.
[19:15] <Arrick> hey all, I need to temporarily allow root to logon to a 12.04 terminal so I can p2v it onto our vmware host... how do I enable the root account to logon?
[19:19] <jrwren> yeah, 4.9 is a particularly excellent release. shame to wait a year to get it into std. but i'd imaging there will be a PPA for it
[19:19] <sarnold> Arrick: easiest is to just use sudo -s or su - from a console.. if you really must give root a password, you may via "passwd" once privs are elevated.
[19:20] <sarnold> jrwren: I assume part of it is just poor timing; moving to a new release of the toolchain for an LTS release might be a big jump. keeping 4.8 for trusty makes sense as saucy's experience can help knock free some harder-to-find bugs
[19:21] <jrwren> sarnold: understood.
[19:22] <Arrick> thanks sarnold I just have to enable it so the vmware p2v tool can run, it has to run as root on *nix.
[19:25] <sarnold> Arrick: and sudo p2v  doesn't work? o_O
[19:25] <Arrick> nope
[19:27] <sarnold> Arrick: crazy.
[19:28] <Arrick> yeah, its their proprietary tool
[19:40] <hazmat> hallyn_, not sure if this already reported.. on saucy.. i've got a juju container that's set to auto start, i rebooted, the container is up and running, but lxc-ls --fancy report  its as stopped
[19:41] <hazmat> as does lxc-info
[19:44] <hazmat> hmm.. but because its running and lxc doesn't know that. i can't stop or remove it
[19:44]  * hazmat unlinks the auto and reboots
[19:48] <hallyn_> hazmat: yes, it's known - probably fixed in -proposed
[19:48] <hallyn_> hazmat: meanwhile you can address it using 'lxc-list -P /var/lib/lxc_anon' and lxc-stop -P /var/lib/lxc_anon'
[20:03] <hazmat> hallyn_, thanks
[20:11] <alex88> hi guys, what's the preferred way to install php 5.5 on 12.04? dotdeb or ppa:ondrej/php5 ?
[20:34] <bgardner> alex88: We're here to help you with the standard versions that ship with Ubuntu - your question might have better luck over at ##php.
[20:34] <alex88> bgardner: I'm asking which you think is "safer"
[20:36] <photon> Ubuntu Server 13.10 installation hangs trying to retrieve file 1 of 2 (93%) in my VirtualBox instance. No CD or HDD activity for 15 minutes. What could be the cause?
[20:37] <bgardner> photon: Tried switching mirrors?
[20:37] <photon> Same happened first time I tried installing, there it hanged just after selecting the keyboard layout.
[20:37] <photon> bgardner: mirrors? oh, it's trying to download something I guess?
[20:37] <bgardner> photon: Or you mean the whole VM hangs, not just the download?
[20:37] <photon> how would I do that?
[20:37] <photon> VirtualBox itself works, the guest OS hangs.
[20:38] <bgardner> photon: Okay, then disregard my mirror comment, I doubt that's related.
[20:38] <photon> bgardner: are you sure? couldn't it be that it simply hangs because it can't fetch the file from the server?
[20:39] <photon> I'm thinking this is quite likely actually.
[20:39] <bgardner> photon: When you say 'hangs', do you mean you can no longer work with it at all?  Or is it just not finishing a download?
[20:40] <photon> well, it's the installation process. I see "Installing the system" and a progress bar that is stuck at 93%. Not sure which key combinations I can use to see if it's really the OS that crashed.
[20:41] <bgardner> photon: Alt-left and right to move between ttys - does that help?
[20:41] <photon> bgardner: yes, immediate reaction
[20:41] <bgardner> photon: Okay, so not dead just waiting forever for a transfer.  Good, that does help.  One moment
[20:42] <photon> bgardner: according to one tty, last action was 15 minutes ago... : unpacking linux headers
[20:44] <bgardner> photon: Go to vbox settings and "unplug" the network card for the VM for a minute and see how it responds.  Don't shut it down, just do Devices->Network Adapters->Adapter 0->Not Attached
[20:46] <photon> bgardner: doing that now.
[20:48] <photon> bgardner: no change.
[20:48] <bgardner> photon: Okay, then my research suggests either mirrors or ipv6 as possible culprits.  I haven't had this issue, but it may be instructive for you to explore one or both.
[20:49] <photon> bgardner: how do I change mirrors?
[20:50] <bgardner> photon: I knew that would be your next question, hang on never needed to do it before so I don't know the procedure off the top of my head.
[20:50] <photon> bgardner: sure, I'm glad for your help.
[20:52] <photon> bgardner: should it be able to install without any network cables attached?
[20:52] <bgardner> photon: Yes, and I was just about suggest you do that.
[20:53] <bgardner> photon: You can apt-get update && apt-get upgrade afterwards to get brought up to date.  But start with net disabled and just get installed from the CD.
[20:53] <photon> wow, just switched to another tty, and seeing a lot of debug and error messages now :/
[20:53] <bgardner> photon: Anything relevant?
[20:54] <photon> hard to tell, something about not being able to unmount /media, packages missing, mounting /dev/sda on /media failed, etc.
[20:55] <photon> and "anna: DEBUG: resolver (ext4-modules): package doesn't exist (ignored)"
[20:55] <photon> "error: couldn't load because of unsupported optional features (240)"
[20:56] <photon> for ext-4, that is ^
[20:56] <photon> sounds pretty messed up
[20:56] <photon> bgardner: ^
[20:57] <bgardner> photon: That's ... interesting.
[20:58] <photon> it hangs somewhere different each time I restart the VM.
[20:59] <bgardner> photon: If I were you I'd start checking components - test memory, HDD, etc.
[20:59] <bgardner> photon: Yeah, I know it's a VM - but something is wrong.
[20:59] <photon> I've been running a VM with Ubuntu Server 10.10 for days (years) now.
[20:59] <photon> worked flawlessly.
[21:00] <photon> the CD ISO is intact.
[21:00] <photon> I checked.
[21:01] <bgardner> photon: I hear you.  Or maybe someone else here is smarter than me and can offer help, but I'm not sure what to tell you.
[21:01] <photon> wow, now it even hangs when checking the CD for integrity?
[21:02] <photon> but the one tty console is still intact.
[21:04] <photon> bgardner: thanks for your effort so far.
[21:05] <bgardner> photon: Sorry I don't have more, and good luck with it.  I have to go but I might be on later.
[21:05] <photon> alright, thanks.
[21:51] <keithzg> So what could be preventing a computer from getting an IP? Suddenly today my officemate's *buntu tower has decided that "auto eth0" and "iface eth0 inet dhcp" isn't sufficient . . .
[21:58] <genii-o-lantern> keithzg: We are already trying to assist in #kubuntu :)
[22:00] <jamespage> zul, adam_g: we should look at this during 14.04
[22:00] <jamespage> https://github.com/pandemicsyn/swift-ring-master
[22:01] <jamespage> paravoid pointed me at it a few weeks ago when I was winging about how awkward ring management is is swift
[22:41] <zanzacar> I have been working with linux for a while and I was wondering about using sudo service to get statues and start/stop/restart thing vs other means?
[22:42] <zanzacar> Is there a best way to handle dealing with your services? I have always used service and never looked for anything else
[22:50] <sarnold> zanzacar: on ubuntu, services are managed via 'upstart' -- nearly everything you'd ever want to know about upstart is documented here: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/cookbook/
[22:50] <sarnold> zanzacar: I think you're probably going to be most interested in chapter 11, Cookbook and Best Practises
[22:55] <zanzacar> sarnold: thanks for getting back to me. Sometimes I never know where the next step in the path is.
[22:56] <sarnold> zanzacar: there is always something new to learn, isn't there? :)
[22:57] <zanzacar> There always is, its just a matter of finding out what it is. Thanks for the link I have some reading to do.