[01:23] bluesabre, I had installed the ppa before I took those screenshots but I just got some updates tonight... [01:24] and now it looks like slickymaster's. http://imagebin.org/275317 [01:25] latest version on top. [01:37] i think i may have cracked this one [01:44] yup [01:47] congrats jjfrv8_ ! [01:48] Reminder about the Xubuntu Community meeting tomorrow at 1500UTC. [01:48] ali1234, that sounds promising [01:48] Unit193, knome; won't be able to make it [01:48] bluesabre: Nor will I. :) [01:50] bluesabre: it was indeed caused by that snippet of code i pasted above [01:51] i still don't know why, but I have it working again [01:51] updated the bug anyway [01:51] cool [01:51] well, HMMMMMMMMMMM............ isn't valid syntax ;) [01:51] that was my commentary [01:52] anyway, i have a theory for what has happened here, off to test it out [01:52] just messing :), good luck! [01:52] knome: Anything you think I had for the meeting feel free to carry. :P [02:10] so this is the fix http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/libdbusmenu/appindicatorfix/revision/462 [02:10] still no idea why this fixes it, as it is the gtk2 version of the library that isn't working - this change should not affect the gtk3 version [02:23] PPA with fix is waiting to build: https://launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/+archive/dbusmenu [09:33] dood morning all [09:34] good ^^ [09:50] Unit193, alllllright. [10:06] hello knome, what shall we do about the slideshow thing, anyone i can poke to find their opinions? [10:07] can you remind what slideshow are we talking about? [10:07] i can indeed [10:08] https://code.launchpad.net/~lderan/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/test/+merge/180747 [10:08] ah, that [10:08] umm, can you ask me again in two hours? :) [10:08] sure thing :P [10:08] ta [10:40] ali1234: "I DO NOT understand why this works" :D [13:06] slightly later then 2 hours but knome ping [14:54] brainwash: care to explain why bug #1231439 is related to shimmer-themes? [14:54] bug 1231439 in gnome-system-log (Ubuntu) "gnome-system-log crashed with SIGSEGV" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1231439 [14:59] ochosi: ... give me some time to actually write a comment :P [14:59] now check again [15:00] well, it's probably the gtk engine or? [15:01] is it not meeting time? [15:01] elfy: please confirm bug 1231439 :) [15:01] bug 1231439 in gnome-system-log (Ubuntu) "gnome-system-log crashed with SIGSEGV" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1231439 [15:02] brainwash: we're using the default engine, so it would mean it's a bug in gtk itself [15:02] elfy: i guess it is, question is, who is actually here for it [15:02] ochosi: it does not happen with the unity themes, or the ugly default xfce ones [15:02] or the default kde gtk theme [15:03] brainwash: well those do use different engines (xfce-engine and unico) [15:03] brainwash: not even got gnome-system-log installed [15:04] ochosi: so it happens with all the shimmer-themes, therefore I've added them to the affected packages list [15:04] brainwash: yeah, i understand. i'll see what we can do about it [15:04] ochosi: thanks :) [15:04] brainwash: can confirm that it doesn't do anything but crash [15:05] elfy: try a non shimmer-theme [15:05] ochosi: not many I guess :) [15:06] brainwash: works with high-contrast [15:08] elfy: thanks for confirming [15:09] welcome [15:10] did I miss the meeting? [15:11] oh, good, it's UTC based [15:12] no, you didn't [15:12] why wouldn't it be UTC based? :P [15:13] We're only 13 minutes late starting then [15:13] hmm, right [15:13] well noticed! [15:13] i still hate DST :( [15:14] so.... who's here for the meeting? :) [15:14] #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting [15:14] Meeting started Thu Oct 31 15:14:46 2013 UTC. The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [15:14] Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired [15:14] #topic Open action items from previous meeting [15:14] o/ [15:14] o/ [15:14] #action knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week [15:14] ACTION: knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week [15:14] still TBD [15:15] skellat, have you prepared a blog article about upgrading? :) [15:15] i came to lurk the meeting, hoping to get involved in 14.04 rollout/qa [15:15] PhilDick, welcome! [15:15] PhilDick, you should talk with elfy after the meeting is over [15:15] ok [15:15] knome: In light of a particular bug issue, it is best we put that action item on deep freeze [15:15] Bug 1208204 [15:15] bug 1208204 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "indicator-sound no longer functions with xfce4-indicator-plugin" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1208204 [15:15] ok, i'll just let it slip from the agenda [15:16] #topic Strategy Document reviewing [15:16] yeah, i've been too busy to get the new version out [15:16] #action knome will send the updated SD to lists later this week [15:16] ACTION: knome will send the updated SD to lists later this week [15:16] #topic Team updates [15:16] does anybody have updates since last week? [15:17] Tomorrow is the deadline for booking UDS sessions [15:17] nothing to update from me [15:18] let's bump the UDS discussion first after announcements. [15:18] any other updates? [15:19] nothing much from my side [15:19] #info nothing from docs [15:19] yeah, as expected, still quiet in the development front [15:19] well, there's some news in xfdesktop [15:19] aha, go ahead [15:19] belated here for the meeting [15:20] not sure that really belongs here, but in many of our reviews ppl complained about us not shipping a set of nice wallpapers by default [15:20] a few things have become easier with the new xfdesktop (4.11) [15:20] ochosi, oh great :) [15:20] there are builtin options to change wallpapers based on time [15:20] we do have the community wallpapers idea still WIP, and i think the LTS release is the perfect place to introduce that [15:20] so we could have a morning, noon, afternoon and evening variant of our wallpaper [15:21] yup, i agree [15:21] and the thing is that the new xfdesktop allows users to simply select a folder which contains wallpapers, which is much better than the current system of being able to only add single wallpapers to the list (which would disappear after logout) [15:21] so i hope we can get a 4.11 release into 14.04 [15:22] (as i don't expect xfce4.12 to land in time for 14.04) [15:22] ochosi: What's the timeline looking like for 4.12 upstream? [15:22] many fixes also went into the desktop, eric was quite active on it [15:22] skellat: it's unknown [15:23] ochosi: Okay [15:23] basically xfce has become a one-man show (especially wrt core-releases) [15:23] ochosi, i agree with trying to get the 4.11 release in. can you add that to the roadmap and specify the package we need and the reason? :) [15:23] so as long as NSchermer isn't around/active, nothing much is going to happen [15:23] hi guys, sorry for being late :( [15:23] hey slickymaster [15:23] knome: yeah, will try to quickly add that (the package is already in the 4.12ppa) [15:24] ochosi, cheers [15:24] so we can even ask ppl to test things *now* [15:24] excellent [15:24] and report issues if they exist (so far i've not experienced any extra bugs with the 4.11 version, and i've been using it for a while) [15:25] ochosi, I won't land 4.11 unless 4.12 is guaranteed to come behind it [15:25] #info xfdesktop 4.11 has some nice features; builtin support for wallpapers based on the time, support for selecting a specific directory where xfdesktop looks for wallpapers instead of the fixed system directory [15:25] micahg-work, i think we need to discuss that [15:25] I don't like the idea of dropping in pre-release versions unless necessary [15:25] we selected the pieces that look stable enough [15:25] micahg-work, landing stuff is fine from my point of view, as long as we test it thoroughly [15:25] yeah, so why not continue to do so? [15:26] knome, sorry, didn't mean to be snarky :) [15:26] (i mean, continue to land pieces that seem stable enough) [15:26] micahg-work, the list we dropped in for 13.10 was short because of the lack of time, not because components weren't stable enough [15:26] ochosi, because upgrade paths might become messy, as this is an LTS, I'd prefer to keep it as stable as sanely possible [15:27] if this were LTS+1 I'd have no problem dropping in the prereleases if they looked stable [15:27] I'd just rather not do it for the LTS unless we have no choice [15:27] as i said, i think we need to discuss what the policy re: including stuff is [15:27] micahg-work: i agree, in this case there's a migrate-patch: http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfdesktop/commit/?id=af240b063cd0678dc1739ffa28e93f1ff530bead [15:28] just saying, xfdesktop should take care of the transition by itself [15:28] ultimately, us dropping in some pieces of 4.11 can help xfce release 4.12 sooner. [15:28] +1 [15:28] and we should definitely be in touch with them about releasing 4.12 too [15:28] I wouldn't mind getting it packaged in a PPA, I'm just averse to throwing it in the archiv [15:29] well, it's already in a PPA ;) [15:29] my point is that if nobody is pushing stuff forward, we're going to stay quite frozen [15:29] if we knew 4.12 was being released in Jan or Feb, this wouldn't be an issue, but that was supposed to happen at the beginning of the year [15:30] yeah, as i said, the situation weighs more or less on NSchermer's shoulders [15:30] and there aren't many other contributors to -core [15:31] i could get in touch with him about a 4.12 release-date, but i'm very pessimistic about that [15:31] we should all sit down, with nick, and discuss about this openly [15:31] there are still things left to do for 4.12, and i fear many of these things would have to be done by him [15:31] We need to get that done before UDS anyhow as we need to have our features settled by then [15:32] simply because there aren't many other ppl around [15:32] with our and their concerns, the ways we can help them release sooner [15:32] skellat, yes and no... that's quite subjective :) [15:33] knome: Feature Definition Freeze supposedly falls the same week as UDS in the Trusty Tahr schedule [15:33] skellat, yes, i'm aware of that, but it's still so-so if we "really" need to have everything planned; we've slipped that times and times... [15:33] Okay [15:34] skellat, ...and nobody comes asking us what we're preparing, or need our list [15:34] Okay [15:34] yeah, i think these are things we can decide for ourselves [15:34] but ofc it's helpful if we have some kind of feature definition freeze (in theory) [15:34] of course! [15:35] there's still a week to go, and tbh, i think that's enough time for us to sit down and think what we want *even if 4.12 didn't land* [15:35] i mean it's not a huge list, and it's not something that's going to break the world. [15:36] knome: one more thing we could discuss is the current panel layout [15:36] ochosi, okay. [15:36] i'm mostly happy with the top-panel, but i'm wondering about the bottom panel [15:36] ochosi, bluesabre, micahg-work: can we set some date in the next 7 days to sit down and discuss? [15:36] Sunday is probably better for me [15:36] i mean i personally haven't used that one for ages and i'm really wondering how useful it is [15:36] otherwise, it'll be too late for all of you [15:36] i remove the bottom [15:36] sunday works for me, if it's late enough [15:37] hmm, sunday i'm travelling all day, but depends on the time [15:37] 22UTC? [15:37] ochosi, micahg-work: late enough? [15:37] sounds good to me [15:37] late enough or too late :) [15:37] ochosi: +1 to bottom panel and lderan I do as well [15:37] ochosi, propose. [15:37] i'll try to make it [15:37] well, that's late afternoon for me :) [15:38] ochosi, i can make it later... and earlier. [15:38] knome: ok, let me quickly check my train schedule [15:38] sure [15:38] elfy: +1 means drop the bottom panel or keep it in this context? [15:38] i remove bottom panel [15:38] i'm fine with dropping the panel [15:38] I'm fine with 22:00 UTC [15:39] micahg-work, let's wait for ochosi's train schedule confirmation :) [15:39] ochosi: I mean I never use it and in fact remove it [15:39] i think if we add e.g. whiskermenu by default (which i hope we will), it's easay enough to launch apps [15:39] easy [15:39] *coughs* :) [15:39] ok, thanks for the quick feedback [15:39] * ochosi adds it to the roadmap [15:39] ochosi, sun schedule? [15:39] knome: sure sure, just one sec... [15:40] I think the panel adds a nice touch, but if we can easily launch apps, it should be fine to remove [15:40] i don't know who actually use the panel [15:40] let's make sure we have docs on how to add it back for people [15:41] I use it to launch email/browser [15:41] it's somewhat hidden, and otoh, when it opens, it's a distraction [15:41] that's why i remove it [15:41] yeah, either add a real dock or drop that [15:41] (imo) [15:41] it's one of the first things I do on a new install - remove it, that is [15:41] knome: so i think it might work for me, let's make it 22utc [15:41] not sure if a real dock is any less distractive. [15:41] okay, 22 utc it is [15:42] dunno, i've been using plank for a while now and i enjoy it so far [15:42] #info Discussion about cherry-picking on Sunday, 3 November at 22UTC on #xubuntu-devel [15:42] #undo [15:42] Removing item from minutes: [15:42] keep in mind xfce/xubuntu users may be avoiding bells and whistles intentionally. otoh those here may not be representative of all xub users [15:42] it also fits xubuntu nicely, because it's lightweight etc [15:42] #info Discussion about cherry-picking Xfce 4.11 components (and related issues) on Sunday, 3 November at 22UTC on #xubuntu-devel [15:43] ochosi, i think we can discuss about the panel configuration at a later time, in a general meeting [15:43] knome: we could try to invite some xfce devs too.. [15:43] yep, we should. [15:43] #info ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting [15:43] err [15:43] #undo [15:43] Removing item from minutes: [15:43] i'll send a quick note to the xfdesktop-dev [15:43] * elfy will try to be there for that meeting so he can keep up with what he might need to think about [15:43] #action ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting [15:43] ACTION: ochosi and knome will try to invite some Xfce devs to the meeting [15:43] elfy, cheers :) we will naturally also make notes... [15:43] #topic Announcements [15:44] yep - not the same as following a discussion though at the time :) [15:44] #info Today is set as the last day of brainstorming for the Roadmap; the team shall approve blueprints next week [15:44] #info After approving, people have two weeks to finalize their specifications (where applicable) [15:45] any other announcements? [15:45] bbiab [15:45] ochosi, thanks for the announcement [15:45] * elfy has a pet peeve that could be an announcement [15:45] elfy, go ahead [15:46] does it need an # ? [15:46] elfy, #info please [15:47] #info - When I ask people on the -dev list for what's likely to come up that needs testing during the cycle - can they please answer. Because I will be doing so. [15:47] yep, we will :) [15:47] and we will also try to be in contact the other way; when we know something else/new needs testing, we will let you know [15:47] #info A meeting may be scheduled if circumstances warrant outside the regular team meeting schedule on creating the core seed [15:48] I'd rather know now that something is coming up in a few months - than then when otjher things are planned [15:48] elfy, sure. the meetings on sunday and next thurday when we approve things should give you a good idea what we are preparing to land to 14.04 images [15:48] will be going through the list of the gtk apps for autopilot testing and seeing which ones now launch without error that didn't before and update the wiki [15:49] lderan, #action lderan ... :) [15:49] #info During the next week I will be mailing -dev list re planning testing (cadence) [15:49] elfy, feel free to add that to the meeting schedule as well, if you want that discussed next thu [15:49] #action lderan to go through the gtk list to see which apps now work with autopilot [15:49] ACTION: lderan to go through the gtk list to see which apps now work with autopilot [15:49] * knome bows [15:49] lderan: can you keep in touch with me re that [15:49] will do [15:49] #topic New and emerging items [15:50] catfish works with it now which is prompting it [15:50] #subtopic Xubuntu Core: Do we offer it only as a metapackage or shall we make downloadable media avaiable as well? [15:50] knome: I suspect I will be working next thursday and missing - will leave copious notes [15:50] elfy, sure :) [15:50] I can speak to the subtopic briefly [15:50] this has been discussed quite a bit, and i think the current stance is "only a metapackage" [15:50] skellat, go ahead [15:50] would be nice as a netinstall or metapackage, I don't know that we need media unless we have the testers [15:50] i would like to avoid the extra image [15:51] another option is to make it selectable from the installer, as edubuntu does [15:51] i'm not against that, but if you make me choose, just a metapackage works. [15:51] Within the limits of the current approved generation options for installation, we can either generate an image or have a user go through mini.iso [15:52] as a potential new qa tester, easier is better.... i'm willing to learn whats required but easier may equal more testers. [15:52] I'd be +1 for whatever is easiest for us as a team to work with [15:52] If core is kept as a strict subset of regular xubuntu-desktop, though [15:52] skellat, ...and we can offer it as an option in the installer :) [15:52] yeah, that'd be really nice [15:52] knome: That would require some hacking on ubiquity to make it available as an option [15:53] skellat, sure, but that's completely in our reach, if we want to do that [15:53] and a whole lot of extra testing - do we really think that we'd get that? [15:53] With the way live cd images are generated [15:53] ... [15:53] I don't want to be having to do more tests on milestone days because we've not had sufficient turnout [15:53] core would have to be a strict subset and ubiquity would need additional rules on what to leave behind [15:53] elfy, a few more testcases. [15:53] skellat, yep. [15:54] skellat: ubiquity supports plugins, so one of xubuntu specific packages can just drop in one .py file as a plugin to fully customize ubiquity. thus actually you can do all of that without touching lp:ubiquity at all =) [15:54] knome: which is ok if you have more than ~20 testers [15:54] oh meeting [15:54] yep :) [15:54] Thank you xnox. We'll still need somebody to make the plugin, though. [15:54] elfy, i'm not disagreeing or pushing for the ubiquity stuff. just saying *it is possible if we want it* [15:54] even from the QA point of view. [15:55] yep - I understand what you're saying - just putting my pov across now :) [15:55] of course it's additional burden... but it's about the same as if we reintroduced the alternate images [15:55] skellat: knome: in terms of implementation - ubiquity is stupid and copies everything first, and then does removal. So xubuntu-desktop will be install first, and then you need to intelligently do an $ apt-get remove * step in essence. [15:55] The case behind core remains we give the bare basic subset of desktop, which should require fewer test cases, that installers can then customize as they see fit in lieu of what xubuntu-desktop provides. [15:56] skellat: it's not about what is IN a testcase - but that we rarely have enough people testing what we already have :) [15:56] elfy: True [15:56] skellat, we still need/want to test what's in the -desktop metapackage as well [15:56] Ideally the tests would overlap [15:56] sure :) [15:56] The same things would be covered [15:56] -core would just have fewer of them than -desktop [15:56] skellat, what's your take on the subject? what would you do? [15:57] From what xnox said about ubiquity, I'd generate a separate image [15:57] That way we don't have to deal with ubiquity having to remove things [15:57] that would mean quite many new testcases though [15:57] True [15:58] which i think isn't sustainable [15:58] My second choice would be fabulous documentation on the art of using mini.iso [15:58] okay [15:58] so you would try to avoid modifying ubiquity? :) [15:59] but mini ist a real option to poeple who want -core because they dont have a fast connection [15:59] The plugin could be done as xnox mentions above but then we'd have to worry about dependencies being broken during a remove and possibly creating dead installs [15:59] knome: skellat: alternative is to make the default liveimage xubuntu-core, and ship the rest of xubuntu-desktop in the /pool/ which is installed in-target "the slow way" (same as it was done by alternate image) [15:59] GridCube, that's not the only reason why people want -core [15:59] no, i didnt said it where [15:59] knome: skellat: but then "try xubuntu" would actually be "try xubuntu-core" [16:00] xnox, yeah, that's not what we want... whatever we end up doing, -desktop should be the default [16:00] so anyway, Unit193 has been setting up a list of packages we want for -core [16:00] knome: it can still be default, but there is an option to sacrafice the "livecd session" to be -core. [16:00] Personally, I'd rather generate and test one image well, than 2 images poorly [16:01] rather than argue about how we'll do it, let's see what it would consist instead, first [16:01] micahg-work, +1 [16:01] micahg-work: +1 [16:01] +1 [16:01] also thats why we droped alternate in the first time [16:01] As to GridCube's notion of needing a fast connection to download, we would get enough to bootstrap & apt-offline would be useful to grab the rest. That's why we seed it. [16:01] #action Unit193 to send a proposed list of packages for -core to ML [16:01] ACTION: Unit193 to send a proposed list of packages for -core to ML [16:01] i'd say that raising visibility of the need for testers and the howto on tester setup might be most impactful option. i'd describe what i found starting from xubuntu.org as subdued and scattered. [16:01] I'm fine with the metapackage and tasksel installation option, but let's leave it off the media, I think we have enough to test for the LTS, let's not add to that [16:02] PhilDick: yea - that's on the roadmap for QA actually [16:02] PhilDick, that's a different question, and i can't agree more; and it's on the roadmap/plans for 14.04; talk with elfy if you want to help :) [16:02] micahg-work, s/for the LTS/for any version/ :) [16:02] we can think about adding that for LTS+1 and if it's successful, we can produce a point release for those new images [16:02] i don't think it's important enough to warrant a new image [16:03] ultimately, it should be only installed by people who know what they are doing [16:03] knome, I'd say especially the LTS as we have to support this for 3 years, so we want to get it right, plus, this is what we point non-advanced users to as a rock solid platform [16:03] and that kind of people should be comfortable with the mini ISO [16:03] micahg-work, sure, but it's true enough for any release, we don't have dozens of testers anyway [16:04] anyway, we're agreeing; let's move on [16:04] #chair ochosi [16:04] Current chairs: knome ochosi [16:04] ochosi, the floor is yours [16:04] ok, first of all, thanks slickymaster and jjfrv8 on helping out with parole-docs [16:04] ochosi, #subtopic too, if you want to have #info #action [16:05] it's really a great help for bluesabre and me, so we can focus on fixing bugs [16:05] knome: sure [16:05] i think one way we can help both xfce and xubuntu is by improving the xfce docs [16:06] they're in dokuwiki format, which is easier to handle for newbies than docbook etc [16:07] #info ochosi thinks one way we can help both xfce and xubuntu is by improving the xfce docs [16:07] * knome facepalms [16:07] #undo [16:07] Removing item from minutes: [16:07] #subtopic Documentation [16:07] #info ochosi thinks one way we can help both xfce and xubuntu is by improving the xfce docs [16:08] ok ok :) [16:09] #info e.g. for parole-docs we set up a staging site for the docs, we can do the same for other xfce components [16:09] #info xfdesktop could use some updates, looking ahead at the changes of the 4.12 release [16:10] #info so feel free to get in touch with ochosi if you wanna help out with xfce docs [16:11] that includes jono_ at the redhat nat! [16:11] * knome hides [16:11] ;-) [16:11] ok, that's it from my side [16:11] anybody else has any issues? [16:12] o/ [16:12] i added a few topics to the roadmap [16:12] ok [16:12] thanks [16:12] well, two [16:12] we will be going through them this week, and deciding about them next thu [16:12] ok, if we find new ideas can we still add them to the roadmap? [16:13] feel free to; i'll add a subheader to separate things added after today though [16:14] alright [16:14] but no reason to not add new items; ultimately, we can use them for planning the U roadmap [16:14] what about the desktop of the week? [16:14] i will need to get to that some day [16:14] i've still been really busy; sorry about that :) [16:14] :/ that doesnt sound very promising [16:14] and :( [16:15] but alright :) i know its really low in the lists [16:15] tell that to my clients and real life :P [16:15] anything else? [16:15] do not worry [16:15] don't worry, i won't worry... and don't get that wrong, it's on the list and i will eventually get to it ;) [16:16] #subtopic Schedule next meeting [16:17] #info There is a non-regular meeting on Sunday, 3 November at 22UTC on #xubuntu-devel about picking Xfce 4.11 components (and related issues) [16:17] #info The next regular Xubuntu community meeting is on Thursday, 7 November at 15UTC on #xubuntu-devel [16:17] #endmeeting [16:17] Meeting ended Thu Oct 31 16:18:15 2013 UTC. [16:17] Minutes (wiki): http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-10-31-15.14.moin.txt [16:17] Minutes (html): http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-10-31-15.14.html [16:17] ta! [16:17] i'll put up the logs up later today [16:18] thanks knome [16:18] I may ask Unit193 to join me for an impromptu core meeting at some point in our local evening [16:19] skellat, sure! if you have any conclusions, send them to the list :) [16:19] bbl -> [16:21] lderan: PhilDick is kind of onboard for helping out with autopilot as well [16:27] awesome [16:29] he's mid USA I think - he's going to mail the -dev list [16:39] ah righteo [16:41]