[07:31]  * mungbean clocks in 
[07:31] <MartijnVdS> Good morning mungbean
[07:36] <mungbean> hello
[07:36] <mungbean> just feeding the sprog. tasty banana porridge
[07:38] <mungbean> reading the kickstarter page for raspi scrren ...looks good
[07:38] <MartijnVdS> speaking of the raspi
[07:38] <MartijnVdS> I need to get mine out again and make it useful
[07:39] <mungbean> i have an idea :P
[07:40] <mungbean> run as a dashboard server http://shopify.github.io/dashing/ collecting metrics and important house info
[07:46] <diplo_> Morning all
[08:18] <dwatkins> I like the example names, 'convergence' etc.
[08:18] <dwatkins> Not sure how you'd put a number on that, I think someone was poking a bit of fun at management-types.
[08:28] <TheOpenSourcerer> \o/
[08:31] <Myrtti> there's no ubuntu themed mobile phone cover thingie for Galaxy Nexuses?
[08:31] <Myrtti> boot
[08:31] <Myrtti> boo
[08:31] <Myrtti> I bet there's plenty of them getting Ubuntu into them this week
[08:55] <dwatkins> moar tea!
[08:58] <mungbean> i think i've peaked for the day already at about 8am
[08:59] <popey> I was still asleep at 8am
[08:59] <mungbean> teething baby slept fine last night but my body woke me up and 3,5, then 6, so i gave wifey a "lay in"
[09:00]  * TheOpenSourcerer has been working since 7am. But off to a beer festival later :-D
[09:04] <Myrtti> \o/ sent feedback to shop.ubuntu.com and already got a reply (that they're forwarding it to relevant department :-/) \o/
[09:07] <popey> https://www.play-i.com/
[09:07] <popey> interesting
[09:08] <mungbean> nice toy for rich people
[09:09] <dwatkins> I give them about a week before they fall apart in the hands of a child.
[09:11] <ali12341> i don't see what programming robots has to do with computer literacy
[09:14] <BigRedS> ali12341: didn't you hear? Teaching kids to program would solve all the problems with our education system
[09:15] <ali12341> these "education" robots haven't changed in 20 years
[09:15] <popey> Big Trak!
[09:15] <ali12341> yes, big trak
[09:15] <ali12341> remember the advert where the kid "programs" it to deliver an apple to his dad?
[09:16] <mungbean> big trak was like logo the turtle
[09:16] <ali12341> how did the apple get into the big trak? it doesn't have a grabber, and you don't usually store apples on the floor
[09:16] <popey> Quick! Phone the ASA!
[09:17] <mungbean> and i never saw evil knievel bike ever do that jump irl
[09:17] <mungbean> only in the ads did it ever work
[09:19] <ali12341> maybe that's the point though
[09:19] <ali12341> maybe learning what computers can't do is more important than learning what they can do
[09:20]  * mungbean strokes his chin
[09:20] <dwatkins> I have a Big Trak with a thing to hold a drink can, same thing - you have to put the can in it.
[09:20] <BigRedS> Learning what they can't do is supposed to come 14 hours into trying to make them do that, though
[09:20] <BigRedS> else you don't really remember the limitation
[09:20] <ali12341> yes
[09:21] <mungbean> i got to use a big trak once, ever
[09:21] <mungbean> and it was in a school classroom
[09:21] <ali12341> yeah same here
[09:22] <mungbean> they took me out for "special lessons" once a week (allegedly for the brightest kids). i never realised what was happening at the time, why me and 6 other kids had to have lessons in the portkabin, but i later discovered that the rest of the class got to play with big trak every week while i was in the portakabin
[09:23] <mungbean> what a swindle
[09:24] <mungbean> meanwhile in the special lesson i was berated by a lady for drawing my o the "wrong" way, because i am left handed. i still do it that way, its the right way for me
[09:24]  * mungbean gets off the psychiatrists couch
[09:26] <SuperMatt> what's the state of bluray in 13.10?
[09:26] <ali12341> reading or writing?
[09:26] <mungbean> have they replaced bluray yet?
[09:26] <mungbean> hoping to skip ..
[09:27] <SuperMatt> watching
[09:28] <popey> yes, we have replaced bluray with streaming video and not getting to keep and play the content
[09:29] <mungbean> \o/ ...oh /o\
[09:29] <directhex> playing (most) blu-ray rips is fine. i don't know if you can play direct from disc on arbitrary discs yet
[09:29] <directhex> not without a static key decryption database downloaded from the wobbletubes
[09:29] <directhex> and BD+ is also a thing
[09:30] <Myrtti> I note Google Play now has the Chromecast app available for Britons, even if the device isn't sold there
[09:30] <mungbean> :S
[09:30] <ali12341> writing is still not properly supported because wodim sucks
[09:30] <ali12341> you have to download and compile cdrecord which works properly
[09:30] <Myrtti> it's £40 in Amazon now, which is about 20quid less it was few weeks ago
[09:31] <mungbean> what, for the app?
[09:31] <Myrtti> no, for the device
[09:31] <mungbean> phew
[09:31] <Myrtti> app is free
[09:33] <popey> i have a chromecast on the way
[09:33] <ali12341> how do i inform dch of my email address so it stops using al@desktop.local when i edit a changelog?
[09:33] <popey> DEBEMAIL=popey@ubuntu.com
[09:33] <popey> DEBFULLNAME=Alan Pope
[09:33] <popey> set them
[09:33] <ali12341> thanks
[09:33] <popey> np
[09:34] <Myrtti> is there any sane way of automating a jboss thingie install? in Ubuntu specifically and main rpm/deb distros in general
[09:35] <Myrtti> I was first thinking of OBS but maybe Juju/Chef would do better?
[09:36] <ali12341> well... OBS is for building packages
[09:37] <Myrtti> yes, well I suspect there's people who are resistant to the seirene call of Chef/Juju
[09:37] <Myrtti> so it might not be out of place to give packages too
[09:38] <Myrtti> s/seirene/siren/
[09:38] <ali12341> i don't like installing things that can't be uninstalled
[09:38] <ali12341> but OBS does not give you anything special
[09:38] <ali12341> you still package it the normal way. OBS just builds it
[09:41] <ali12341> 9 hour queue for PPA builds... jeez
[09:45] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Friday and happy Authors' Day! :-D
[10:08] <MartijnVdS> happy mailman day, JamesTait
[10:08] <dwatkins> I thought it was poets, not authors today...
[10:09] <JamesTait> MartijnVdS, again?!?  I'm sure my mailman doesn't visit that often....
[10:09] <JamesTait> dwatkins, I think that'd be P.O.E.T.S day, wouldn't it? ;)
[10:10] <JamesTait> (And no, I won't be doing, since I started so late this morning.)
[10:16] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:22] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:22] <JamesTait> Morning davmor2, brobostigon! o/
[10:23] <brobostigon> morning JamesTait
[10:23] <davmor2> JamesTait: morning dude I thought I'd throw your day out for a change :)
[10:23] <Myrtti> now I feel silly, I can't wait to get the new phone so I can put Ubuntu on this one
[10:24] <JamesTait> davmor2, my day's already out - the kids are off school and I'm having to do Minetest maintenance before work this week. ;)
[10:25] <davmor2> JamesTait: haha
[10:25] <JamesTait> Plus this morning I had to take the Hallowe'en decorations down.
[10:43] <mungbean> http://londonist.com/2013/10/fly-through-17th-century-london.php
[10:44] <mungbean> i'd play that game
[10:45] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: "You start a fire. The city burns down."
[10:45] <MartijnVdS> </17th century>
[10:45] <mungbean> you were hit by a gruel
[10:46] <MartijnVdS> "You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all different"
[10:46] <mungbean> you caught the plague. you die. everybody dies
[10:47] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: http://dftba.com/product/14z/Everything-Is-Dead-T-Shirt
[10:54] <dwatkins> NORTH
[10:56] <brobostigon> nw
[10:56] <dwatkins> You can't go north-west from here.
[10:57] <MartijnVdS> ah, you're at the pole?
[10:58]  * mungbean remembers to go to the post office to send Azelphur's package
[10:58]  * popey wonders when his chromecast will arrive
[10:59]  * MartijnVdS finishes configuring his Nexus 5
[11:00] <arsen> ooh you have a nexus5?:o
[11:00] <MartijnVdS> yup :)
[11:00] <arsen> any good? :)
[11:00] <MartijnVdS> it's VERY slick & fast
[11:01] <Myrtti> MartijnVdS: that was quick
[11:01] <Myrtti> how'd you get it so fast?
[11:01] <arsen> still sat on my iphone 4s :/
[11:01] <MartijnVdS> Myrtti: Ordered at a store that offered overnight shipping for orders before 20:00
[11:01] <MartijnVdS> Myrtti: and ordered it around 19:30
[11:01] <Myrtti> yeah, that would explain it
[11:01] <arsen> annoyingly tied into the apple way of doing things, but i cant say i'm any more keen to move to android than i am to get a new iphone - and i'm really excited by any of the new i-devices.
[11:02] <Myrtti> I'm not sure what I think of my last night now
[11:02] <arsen> sorry - i'm NOT really excited by any new apple devices.
[11:02] <arsen> maybe the age of exciting new hardware has passed.
[11:02] <Myrtti> on one hand I got to see Benedict twerk his bum and saw both him and Jonny Lee doing excellent theatre
[11:03] <Myrtti> on the other I missed out on Nexus 5 being here next week
[11:03] <dwatkins> don't let a Nexus completely lose its charge, you have to reset it to get it to boot up again.
[11:03] <dwatkins> at least that's the case with the Nexus 7 I have.
[11:04] <arsen> stuff like that ^ is what puts me off moving to android phones :<
[11:04] <Myrtti> what do you mean with "completely"
[11:05] <Myrtti> I've ran out of battery on mine several times and have never needed to reset it because of that
[11:05] <brobostigon> because it theory, it should shut down, before it completly drains.
[11:05] <brobostigon> not had that issue with my nexus7 either.
[11:07] <dwatkins> Perhaps it's only this particular model, the original nexus 7.
[11:07] <Myrtti> that's what I have
[11:08] <dwatkins> maybe it's only certain firmware version[s]
[11:08] <popey> same for nexus 4
[11:08] <brobostigon> i have the 2012 8gb model.
[11:08] <popey> but depends what you mean by "reset"
[11:08] <dwatkins> https://support.google.com/nexus/answer/2668668?hl=en
[11:08] <popey> yeah
[11:08] <popey> we see that a lot with Nexus 4's
[11:12] <MartijnVdS> I'm too paranoid to drain my batteries
[11:12] <MartijnVdS> If it goes down to 50% it's a special day
[11:13] <arsen> doesn't that kill the battery memory?
[11:14] <popey> no
[11:14] <mungbean> MartijnVdS: what was your old phone?
[11:15] <MartijnVdS> galaxy nexus
[11:26] <Myrtti> doing a backup of my GN now
[11:32] <mungbean> argh still getting PPI voice call spam
[11:35] <brobostigon> every so often, we get the one where they claim to be from "microshaft support" and that they found a virus on a computer they have no access to. i tend to like to lead them on. and waste there merry time.
[11:37] <bashrc> that's an old scam now
[11:38] <dwatkins> I'd like to have a virtual machine ready for them if they call me, and put a bunch of files in it as a honeypot. I might even consider infecting some PDFs with stuff which phones home so I can see where they are or pass details on to the authorities of the relevant country for fraud.
[11:39] <brobostigon> bashrc: agreed, and thousands i hear about, fall for it.
[11:40] <bashrc> social engineering is alarmingly easy to do
[11:41] <brobostigon> like the I-god phenomena.
[11:41] <penguin42> the what?
[11:42] <brobostigon> the apple religeon.
[11:42] <penguin42> oh
[11:43] <brobostigon> it was last year, they did tests on apple fans, and there brains actually did interpret it like a religeon.
[11:44] <mungbean> i don't understand the first day queueing thing
[11:44] <mungbean> crowd mentality
[11:45] <brobostigon> thats an aspect of that same phenomena.
[11:45] <mungbean> then again i don't understand hipsters
[11:45] <mungbean> went to a gig in shoreditch where all the hipsters were hiding
[11:46] <mungbean> it was hilarious
[11:46] <mungbean> all of them identical
[11:46] <mungbean> if a tree falls in a forest and nobody hears it, will a hipster buy the soundtrack?
[11:46] <brobostigon> lol
[11:47] <penguin42> mungbean: No, he'll use it as a backing track for a slow motion video
[11:51] <popey> the first day queuing isn't new or only apple, it's just more prevalent now, and seen more because they have retail stores and social media lauds/mocks it
[11:52]  * popey notes how many people beat a door down to the google play store to get a nexus 5 yesterday
[11:52] <popey> exact same thing
[11:52] <popey> just more comfy
[11:52] <mungbean> i don't know why you people would camp out for anything
[11:52] <marxjohnson> when i think of first day queing the first thing that springs to mind is Windows 95 rather than apple stuff
[11:52] <mungbean> sorry the you crept in
[11:54] <mungbean> i think of the star wars fans ep 1 queueing 2 months in advance, and the film was rubbish
[12:01] <penguin42> yeh it's just being part of a culture
[12:01] <popey> ya
[12:02] <penguin42> which reminds me, I wonder how cheap Nexus 4's are now
[12:02] <popey> Strange though that star wars fans are called "fans" yet iphone users are called "sheep"
[12:02] <popey> says more about the observer than the observed
[12:03] <penguin42> popey: I suppose there is a bit of a difference of going and everyone spending #5 to watch a film and spending #500 pound
[12:03] <popey> so even less so
[12:04] <popey> people who are willing to throw away a fiver could be called sheep
[12:04] <mungbean> i think because among non technical friends , most just repeat the same mantra they have heard
[12:04] <popey> people who are committed enough to spend 500 quid.. ??
[12:04] <mungbean> most can't afford it either
[12:04] <popey> that happens for everything
[12:04] <popey> "Fox News: Fair and balanced"
[12:04] <penguin42> popey: Mind you, I'm just tight so....
[12:04] <popey> an American actually said that to me once.
[12:04] <mungbean> i only see it for phones among acquaintances
[12:04] <popey> open your eyes ☻
[12:05] <mungbean> although a nigerian friend came to UK and asked what paper to read , he was told "the sun is good for news"
[12:05] <mungbean> so he read the sun for 3 years without considering what else was there
[12:05] <penguin42> ouch
[12:05] <popey> kids buying 1D tickets
[12:05] <popey> car enthusiasts sticking to one make/model
[12:05] <popey> etc
[12:05] <popey> deriding other peoples choices
[12:05] <mungbean> " among acquaintances       "
[12:05] <popey> "Ewww, you bought a volvo"
[12:05] <popey> etc
[12:06] <popey> I still don't believe it ☻
[12:06] <mungbean> i only see unsolicited advice like that from my acquaintances re phones
[12:06] <mungbean> solicited advice is fine
[12:06] <penguin42> CeX seem to be selling a 'Google Nexus 4 16GB, Non Working' for 127
[12:06] <mungbean> e.g. which dentist to go to etc
[12:06] <popey> people like validation of their own purchases
[12:07] <penguin42> popey: I think pricey tech purchases are status symbols as well though that's not true of cheap things like flocking to see the same film
[12:07] <popey> spoken like a true tightass ☻
[12:07] <penguin42> nod
[12:08] <penguin42> popey: It's especially true among kids though, it's the same as expensive clothes etc
[12:08] <popey> exactly
[12:08] <popey> ergo: "sheep" applies to more than phones, and not just apple
[12:09] <penguin42> popey: Yeh agreed
[12:09] <popey> nobody ever says "android sheep"
[12:09] <penguin42> popey: But different from the star-wars fans
[12:09] <popey> yet it's the widest (arguably) used platform, and has people stabbing F5 to get in on the first day
[12:09] <gordonjcp> why are you calling people sheep?
[12:09] <MartijnVdS> Googly Sheep!
[12:09] <gordonjcp> is it because they're all doing the same thing?
[12:10] <popey> I'm not.
[12:10] <gordonjcp> because, whoever coined the term "sheep" in that context has evidently not tried to get sheep to do anything
[12:10] <popey> hah
[12:10] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Ah yeh you see that's the difference, I'm an android fan - but I buy a cheapo phone not the latest
[12:11] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: the latest is pretty cheap compared to the competition
[12:11] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: it's less than half the price of the top-of-the-line iphone
[12:11] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: I'd point out when I said cheap I meant I spent #80 on a ZTE device
[12:11] <MartijnVdS> ah, well, yes :)
[12:11] <MartijnVdS> Cheap++
[12:11] <popey> there's a reason it's cheaper ☻
[12:11]  * penguin42 can have a tightness battle with the cheapest
[12:12] <popey> LG don't make any premium phones do they?
[12:12] <popey> FSVO "premium"
[12:12] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: Nexus 5 ;)
[12:12] <MartijnVdS> uh popey
[12:13] <penguin42> popey: Well there are the LG Optimus phones that are pretty neat - but they don't have the following of Google/Samsung/Apple
[12:15] <penguin42> popey: And the google and samsung ones do have the advantage of being hackable more; I mean if you were buying to run Ubuntu Touch, Cyanogen builds or half a dozen other things you'd probably want the Nexus?
[12:16] <penguin42> anyway, disappears to meet a friend
[13:15] <MartijnVdS> cool! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goOa3DGezUA
[14:12] <arsen> cool MartijnVdS
[14:12] <arsen> interesting.
[14:14] <mungbean> clicks "watch later"
[14:20]  * dwatkins clicks "like" to save it to his twitter video list
[14:24] <arsen> what's a twitter video list? :o
[14:27] <dwatkins> arsen: you can configure youtube to tweet a link to a video when you click "like", so I have it linked to an account I use purely to list the videos I've liked.
[14:27] <dwatkins> "dom_links" if you're curious
[14:27] <arsen> interesting. thanks.
[14:28] <dwatkins> I do something similar with bit.ly and URLs of sites I find interesting.
[14:34] <arsen> cool, i guess i tend to just.. watch stuff or read it immediately so no real need to store it. sometimes stuff i know i'll want to see again later or in the distant future, i'll just paste in irc and use irclogs xD
[14:36] <dwatkins> I'm not bothered about storing it up for future consuption, although sometimes it's useful to go back, I just like sharing things for people to see
[14:36] <arsen> gotcha. i guess i'd just tweet it, or facebook it if it's not too techy :)
[14:36] <dwatkins> that's pretty much what I do, yeah.
[14:37] <arsen> though if i did everything i think people would be annoyed by the sheer amount of content i consume on a daily basis, heh.
[14:55] <dwatkins> yeah, I shared a link to my twitter accounts in case anyone wants to follow them, so I don't spam facebook with them.
[14:55] <dwatkins> I also share a couple things on facebook that I think people might find useful, of course.
[14:57] <arsen> like knights in shining armor we scour the web for interesting informatino for our friends.
[15:02] <dwatkins> oh I don't do much scouring, I just read various subreddits ;)
[15:39] <mungbean> whoah http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-24771483
[15:40] <popey> that'll make for a fun friday
[15:40] <MartijnVdS> *long
[15:41] <mungbean> my sis came to visit today, sh e might have to stay over
[15:42] <dwatkins> oh my
[15:43] <Seeker`> mungbean: where are you?
[15:44] <mungbean> live near j25
[15:44]  * MartijnVdS re-programs the targeting system of the missiles
[15:44] <mungbean> you got a direct hit on the lorry
[15:45] <Seeker`> mungbean: ah, yes. She won't be going anywhere fast then :P
[15:45]  * Seeker` is near J20
[15:45] <mungbean> also means all the roads get screwed
[15:45] <mungbean> divert ont a406 and a10 etc
[15:45] <MartijnVdS> I've actually been there 8-)
[15:46] <MartijnVdS> (I have a receipt from South Mimms services)
[15:50] <ali12341> oh good... libdbusmenu simply won't build in a ppa, even if you upload it with only trivial changes (ie bump the changelog and nothing else)
[15:50] <MartijnVdS> ftbfs \o/
[15:57] <mungbean> lorry driver was arrested
[15:57] <mungbean> dangerous driving
[16:02] <davmor2> mungbean: dangerous driving, shed load, reckless endangerment, damages and depending on Alcohol/drug blood test under the influence as a minimum I would imagine
[16:03] <davmor2> mungbean: difference between a normal driver and a professional one
[16:03] <ali12341> bug 1247162
[16:04] <mungbean> to flatten the central res and wipe out 2 carriageways, i wonder what happens
[16:04] <mungbean> happened
[16:04] <mungbean> swerve to avoid something?
[16:04] <Seeker`> mungbean: fell asleep at the wheel maybe
[16:04] <mungbean> also that
[16:04] <davmor2> Wow I have a responsive system again
[16:04] <MartijnVdS> low sun?
[16:05] <Seeker`> i can't imagine it is difficult to lose control of one of those things, and once they start skidding, they'll probably slide wherever they want to go
[16:05] <Seeker`> MartijnVdS: I doubt he would have been arrested for a low sun?
[16:05] <marxjohnson> ali12341: Thanks for looking in to that issue!
[16:05] <MartijnVdS> Seeker`: low sun might have just been one factor
[16:05] <mungbean> there has been no sun today
[16:06] <davmor2> Seeker`: it's really hard to lose control of one of those, the only time isn't is if the trailor is empty and there are strong cross winds
[16:06] <ali12341> marxjohnson: np. looks like i've opened a real can of worms though
[16:06] <Seeker`> davmor2: I mean if he fell asleep at the wheel or something, then tried to correct rapidly etc.
[16:06] <marxjohnson> ali12341: so I see :(
[16:08] <ali12341> marxjohnson: you can do a local build of libdbusmenu, it just doesn't work in a PPA for some reason
[16:08] <marxjohnson> that's odd
[16:09] <davmor2> Seeker`: you would still be on the right side of the road you would only likely crush a couple of cars if they were beside you
[16:09] <ali12341> http://askubuntu.com/q/369302/12435 <- if you do this, it works
[16:10] <marxjohnson> ali12341: At least I now know it's not a problem in my indicator
[16:21] <mungbean> i think thats the 50mph section on the m25
[17:53] <MartijnVdS> http://i.imgur.com/PgpxU1e.jpg
[18:19] <RaycisCharles> MartijnVdS do you know about Van Persie's toe injury?
[18:19] <RaycisCharles> Apparently he needed injections to play through the pain.
[18:22] <MartijnVdS> RaycisCharles: I know nothing about football
[18:25] <gordonjcp> two footballers are in the dressing room talking to the coach
[18:25] <MartijnVdS> RaycisCharles: except these: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Machinima/TheMiracleOfSwindonTown
[18:25] <gordonjcp> one says "Boss, before I go out there and play, I want a cortisone injection"
[18:25] <DJones> RaycisCharles: He's a pansyball player, he'd need medication before a haircut,
[18:25] <gordonjcp> the other footballer says, "yeah and if he's getting a new car, I want a new car too!"
[18:25] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: hahaha :)
[18:27] <DJones> gordonjcp: And the Rugby player just wets themselve laughing at them, disllocation? ok, carry on, concussion..Who do I tackle
[18:28]  * DJones points out that he's  biased, football is as much a sport as hairdressing is
[18:36] <MartijnVdS> DJones: check out that tvtropes link
[18:36] <MartijnVdS> DJones: and the associated youtube show
[18:36] <MartijnVdS> DJones: Football.. as narrated/played by an author :)
[20:07] <DJones> Sheesh, twitter is so informative "Roads are wet after rain" sent by a local police authority....Duh!
[20:07] <MartijnVdS> DJones: tweet back at them: "No shit, Sherlock"
[20:08] <DJones> I think the irony would be lost on the,
[20:08] <DJones> them
[20:09] <MartijnVdS> true
[20:09] <mezzapazza> 1v4n4
[20:37] <jgjones_> Good evening...
[20:37] <brobostigon> evening jgjones_
[20:38] <MartijnVdS> \o
[20:38] <jgjones_> I was wondering - on Windows one might use a memory dump or even access the SAM file in order to take passwords...where can I read to see how the password process works on Linux during login?
[20:39] <MartijnVdS> jgjones_: depends on how you log in
[20:39] <MartijnVdS> jgjones_: probably by looking at the source of the PAM libraries
[20:39] <MartijnVdS> everything uses that
[20:39] <jgjones_> Ah thanks I'll look at that.
[20:49] <diddledan> JGJones: at the most basic level a root-permissioned program (login for e.g.) will read the /etc/shadow file and compare the hashed version of the input password with the hash stored in that file. pam extends the process somewhat but at it's core it does the same.
[20:49] <diddledan> erm
[20:50] <diddledan> oh I did get the right nickname
[20:50] <JGJones> @diddledan That's sorta what I figured. What happens to the entered password - ie does it still live in the memory (ie can one obtain it via a memory dump)
[20:51] <JGJones> damn twitter
[20:51] <MartijnVdS> for a short while
[20:51] <MartijnVdS> probably
[20:51] <diddledan> no it doesn't remain in memory afaik
[20:51] <diddledan> there's no need for it to remain
[20:51] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: it's in memory while it's being checked
[20:51] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: yeah, but that's transient
[20:51] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: everything is transient :P
[20:52] <JGJones> yes there's no need - so does it just get flushed out or just the memory area marked as *not in use* and potentially readable ie via memory dump or whatever?
[20:52] <MartijnVdS> JGJones: you should probably check every PAM-using app to make sure
[20:52] <MartijnVdS> they probably wipe i
[20:52] <MartijnVdS> t
[20:53] <JGJones> OK thanks. It helps.
[20:54] <diddledan> surely a memory dump would require root permission and therefore your password is as good as taken anyway without requiring a memory dump because the attacker can brute-force the /etc/shadow file
[20:54] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: unless you dunk the machine in liquid nitrogen before powering it off, then reading VERY carefully
[20:55] <diddledan> yeah, but who has actually done that successfully in the wild (not in a lab)?
[20:56] <MartijnVdS> uhh
[20:56] <JGJones> diddledan: yeah I know - however am doing a security course and am learning about linux login process atm - obviously with a root access you don't need to do a memory dump, you might as well use a key logger instead, much easier.
[20:56] <diddledan> physical access to dunk it in nitrogen is physical access to be able to reboot into something that allows to read the /etc/shadow file and manipulate it
[20:57] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: true
[20:57] <MartijnVdS> JGJones: apt-get source libpam ;)
[20:58] <diddledan> the problem with using either keyloggers or memory dumps is that you have to sift through large data files - once you're root, the /etc/shadow file can be brute forced much easier than finding needle minus haystack
[20:59] <MartijnVdS> replacing libpam with a h4x0red copy is also easy then
[20:59] <diddledan> good point, MartijnVdS
[21:00] <JGJones> diddledan: you could just search a keylogger log for keywords - say look for http://hotmail.com and then just read the keypresses after this - ie username followed by a potential password
[21:02] <JGJones> brute-forcing a /etc/shadow might take a long time depending on what hashing method is used. Ubuntu for example use SHA512 don't they?
[21:02] <MartijnVdS> JGJones: it depends more on the password difficulty than on the used hashing algo, unfortunately
[21:03] <JGJones> Yeah that's true....I forgot about the recent arstechnia articles about cracking long passwords etc :)
[21:04] <JGJones> In a lab that we're learning in, we use randomly generated 8 character alphanumeric passwords so a bit difficult
[21:05] <MartijnVdS> easiest way to catch passwords is writing a PAM module, and getting root to add it to /etc/pam.d/*
[21:16] <mungbean> watching papillon, great film, why did i never see this before?
[21:18] <popey> heh, bitcoin getting mentioned on HIGNFY
[21:21] <diddledan> ooh, kitkat uses SELinux now
[21:21] <mgdm> expect it to randomly not work, then
[21:21] <mgdm> I mean, more so :P
[21:21] <diddledan> lol
[21:21] <popey> http://joke.popey.com/
[21:21] <MartijnVdS> 8-)
[21:22] <penguin42> diddledan: where did you see that?
[21:23] <MartijnVdS> popey: http://www.youtube.com/user/ScottBradleeLovesYa/videos?sort=dd&shelf_id=2&view=0
[21:23] <popey> jan wildebeat mentioned it on G+ earlier
[21:23] <diddledan> penguin42: http://www.android.com/versions/kit-kat-4-4/
[21:23] <penguin42> Ta
[21:23] <mgdm> MartijnVdS: that guy's great
[21:23] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: yeah, scary sometimes even
[21:24] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: "Lithium vs Titanium" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXBXllRcf_4
[21:24] <diddledan> penguin42: it's hidden at the bottom under the "even more features" reveal
[21:24] <mgdm> MartijnVdS: I got reminded of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYutmFPPK4 last night, they're also entertaining
[21:25] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: oh wow
[21:30] <penguin42> diddledan: http://developer.android.com/about/versions/kitkat.html  seems to have the more details
[21:33] <penguin42> diddledan: Seems to be a lot of stuff about improving memory stuff
[21:38] <diddledan> so, the question.. when do I get shiny kitkat on my nexus one?
[21:39] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: I guess you don't
[21:39] <diddledan> correction galaxy nexus (I was gonna say that originally)
[21:39] <MartijnVdS> you still don't ;)
[21:39] <MartijnVdS> wait for a Cyanogenmod version for it
[21:39] <diddledan> why not?
[21:39] <MartijnVdS> because Google isn't going to provide an official updat
[21:39] <MartijnVdS> e
[21:39] <diddledan> who says?
[21:40] <MartijnVdS> Google
[21:40] <penguin42> it does say on that page that it is supported on devices with 512MB RAM and up so it should be OK....
[21:41] <MartijnVdS> sure, but if they don't release an update, you're out of luck
[21:41] <MartijnVdS> unless you flash custom firmware
[21:41]  * penguin42 thought everyone did
[21:41] <diddledan> dangit
[21:42] <diddledan> engadget suggests it's down to texus instruments leaving mobile altogether
[21:42] <MartijnVdS> that could be part of the problem
[21:43] <diddledan> that really suckx
[21:43]  * MartijnVdS has a N5, doesn't see a problem
[21:43] <diddledan> lol
[21:51] <penguin42> diddledan: I'm not sure why that would make a big difference
[22:06] <diddledan> oops
[22:06] <diddledan> I accidentally just ordered a nexus5
[22:06] <MartijnVdS> "oops"
[22:06] <diddledan> damn you brain!
[22:07] <diddledan> it'll be here on monday supposedly
[22:07] <jpds> You just accidentally  a nexus5?
[22:08] <MartijnVdS> wow.. the built-in speakers are amazing!
[22:12] <popey> better than the n4?
[22:12] <popey> cant be worse
[22:12] <MartijnVdS> I don't know the N4 speakers
[22:12] <MartijnVdS> there are nice big speakers in the bottom of the phone
[22:12] <popey> shit
[22:12] <MartijnVdS> they're certainly much better than the Galaxy Nexus speakers
[22:14] <MartijnVdS> Hm... I like Google's Instant Mix algorithm
[22:14] <MartijnVdS> (a) it only uses songs I own, and (b) it actually produces a playlist I'd like to listen to