[05:50] <Noskcaj> Where's the logout bug? Someone reported a dupe at bug 1247337
[10:35] <brainwash> ali1234: https://launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/+archive/rand
[11:39] <bluesabre> slickymaster, jjfrv8; this channel is too long... where is the page with the theme definition on my wiki?
[11:46] <bluesabre> micahg: If you get a chance, could you approve this and merge it so we can fix two very simple bugs? https://code.launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/xubuntu-default-settings/b2_fixes
[11:47] <bluesabre> I've had the merge request available for it since beta 2
[12:11] <sadin> archlinux-offtopic
[12:12] <sadin> ugh woops to out of it this morning...
[12:44] <jjfrv8> bluesabre, you mean this one? http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=playground:sceenshot-stds
[12:44] <bluesabre> yes, thanks!
[12:44] <jjfrv8> welcome
[12:51] <ali1234> brainwash: yeah it doesn't build
[13:09] <jjfrv8> bluesabre, all the data on that page were current but my screenshots weren't. I just corrected that.
[13:11] <jjfrv8> I've also updated the screenshots on the pages I've been working on: http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=playground:playground
[13:33] <ochosi> jjfrv8: nice work!
[13:33] <ochosi> looks pretty
[13:35] <jjfrv8> ochosi, so you think I'm on the right track? It's not too basic and stating the obvious?
[13:36] <ochosi> no, to me this looks very god
[13:36] <ochosi> good
[13:36] <ochosi> :)
[13:36] <jjfrv8> cool
[13:37] <ochosi> indeed, if bluesabre is around while i am, we can discuss what parts we can copy over to docs.xfce and when
[13:38] <bluesabre> ochosi: with the exception of my screenshot on introduction, I think everything we've got so far is in great condition
[13:38] <jjfrv8> ok. I think the overview is pretty much done. I'm not sure yet how we will link to the menu pages that slickymaster has started...
[13:38] <jjfrv8> and I have yet to start on.
[13:39] <ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, i agree. that's why i thought we can start to migrate some pages even today if you want
[13:39] <ochosi> bluesabre: it's not like it has to be there in one go
[13:39] <bluesabre> true
[13:39] <bluesabre> I'd say go for it
[13:39] <ochosi> btw, i'm not sure we've changed the report-bugs link in 0.5
[13:39] <ochosi> cause we should probably do that
[13:40] <ochosi> and also change the help-link
[13:40] <bluesabre> right now I am starting to work on an mpris plugin
[13:40] <ochosi> might take a while for parole 0.6 to spread (mainly because of libxfce4ui)
[13:40] <ochosi> sweet!
[13:40] <ochosi> does the dbus-stuff we already have help?
[13:40] <bluesabre> not sure yet
[13:41] <bluesabre> but yeah, go ahead and start moving some of the docs over
[13:42] <ochosi> alright, i'll start with something easy (commandline-opts)
[13:43] <bluesabre> I'm jealous of totem's python plugin interface
[13:43] <ochosi> mmm, i figured :)
[13:44] <ochosi> jjfrv8: are you fine with me copying the prefs next or is there any blocker from your perspective?
[13:45] <jjfrv8> ochosi, nothing that I know of
[13:45] <elfy> afternoon 
[13:46] <jjfrv8> hey, elfy 
[13:46] <elfy> jjfrv8 - cracking job you and slick have done :)
[13:46] <jjfrv8> thanks :)
[13:46] <ochosi> elfy: +1
[13:47] <elfy> I hope you all read this bit of my mailng " Can the team please comment on the pads where applicable and here." :)
[13:51] <ochosi> jjfrv8: great, now since you've set everything up already at your end, would you mind re-taking the screenshot from the introduction page? then i could copy that one over as well
[13:51] <ochosi> and then only the usage page is missing, but that one seemed to be pretty ready as well, no? (despite being in the playground-section for no obvious reason :p)
[13:52] <bluesabre> ochosi: I added that screenshot, but anybody can replace it with anything
[13:52] <ochosi> ah
[13:53] <ochosi> hm, i like video-position for the screenshot a lot btw :)
[13:53] <jjfrv8> ochosi, I started with Usage in playground because I was waiting for a review before moving it.
[13:53] <ochosi> jjfrv8: alrighty. but this is really just the staging site, so feel free to play ;)
[13:53] <jjfrv8> alright, I'll move it over now.
[13:53] <ochosi> cool, thanks!
[13:54] <jjfrv8> I'll also see if I can reproduce bluesabre's opening screenshot and put that in.
[13:55] <ochosi> thanks, that's great
[13:55] <ochosi> it's looking a bit like we might get the docs moved over completely today \o/
[13:56] <jjfrv8> well, we're still missing some menu items. the ones I'm supposed to do :(
[13:56] <ochosi> ah, well no worries
[13:56] <ochosi> i'm even pretty happy with the status quo: http://docs.xfce.org/apps/parole/start
[13:57] <bluesabre> +1
[13:59] <ochosi> i still love our bug-page
[13:59] <ochosi> we should propose this layout to more xfce-components
[13:59] <ochosi> although few have such a clean bugzilla as parole :p
[14:02] <bluesabre> this is true
[14:03] <bluesabre> the mpris stuff seems like it might take a while
[14:04] <ochosi> bluesabre: well if it isn't straightforward we can also do something else before that
[14:04] <bluesabre> right
[14:04] <ochosi> i thought it would've been nice, cause it'd have qualified parole as a basic music player as well
[14:04] <bluesabre> I just thought it might be a bit more accessible :)
[14:04] <ochosi> in modern desktops
[14:04] <ochosi> yeah, that's certainly true
[14:04] <bluesabre> right, hence my interest in it.
[14:05] <ochosi> in fact, the xfce-deps are a bit of a bummer now
[14:05] <bluesabre> I'll see what I can do with it today
[14:05] <ochosi> cause xfce4.12 will delay the spread of 0.6
[14:05] <bluesabre> that just means more time to fix bugs and improve stability
[14:05] <ochosi> and it makes it harder to use parole in e.g. gnome3
[14:06] <ochosi> sure, true
[14:06] <bluesabre> and maybe crank some plugins out
[14:06] <ochosi> making parole youtube-enabled would be probably on top of my list
[14:07] <ochosi> but even using that grillo framework might be a lot of work
[14:07] <bluesabre> yeah
[14:08] <bluesabre> there might be an easier way
[14:08] <ochosi> an it's a source for another gazillion new bugs
[14:08] <bluesabre> might look into youtube-dl
[14:08] <ochosi> mhmmmm
[14:08] <bluesabre> http://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/
[14:08] <bluesabre> might be some handy info in there
[14:10] <ochosi> holy moly, that one has quite a few options
[14:10] <ochosi> seems like it's already quite complex
[14:10] <bluesabre> yeah, we might be able to convert some small part of that to get our stream url
[14:11] <ali1234> you can never make youtube work in a third party player
[14:11] <ali1234> at best it will work only for 30% of videos
[14:11] <ochosi> ali1234: minitube seems to do ok
[14:11] <ali1234> and after about two months it will stop working because they redesigned the website
[14:11] <bluesabre> still works pretty well for totem
[14:11] <ochosi> well true, a stable api is something else
[14:12] <ochosi> but we don't *have to* provide browsing of youtube in the player
[14:12] <bluesabre> all I'm interested in is pasting the youtube url in the open network location and it streaming something
[14:12] <ochosi> exactly
[14:21] <ochosi> holy moly, they say it works on youtube "and a few other sites", then look at this impressive list: https://github.com/rg3/youtube-dl/tree/master/youtube_dl/extractor
[14:29] <bluesabre> :D
[14:29] <bluesabre> btw ochosi, I saw that light-locker is now in trusty
[14:29] <ochosi> yup :)
[14:29] <bluesabre> I think there needs to be a minimal configuration tool for it
[14:29] <ochosi> and we finally managed to set up translation stuff
[14:29] <bluesabre> to enable/disable/set the timeout
[14:30] <ochosi> hm, not sure, usually you'd either have the timeout or not
[14:30] <bluesabre> It's all xset stuff, right?
[14:30] <ochosi> yup
[14:30] <bluesabre> should be easy to make a simple gui for that, even in C to ship as part of the light-locker package
[14:31] <ochosi> yeah
[14:31] <ochosi> i mean the timeout is just an addon to the xset stuff
[14:31] <bluesabre> just a thought, since ubuntu is very interested in using it, and so are we and possibly lubuntu
[14:32] <ochosi> yeah, i mean the thing is that even if we designed such an app, i'm not sure ubuntu wouldn't simply include a single checkbox or whatever in their powermanager-settings
[14:32] <bluesabre> ah
[14:32] <ochosi> i think a more integrated solution would be better
[14:32] <bluesabre> thats a good point
[14:33] <ochosi> so e.g. you could have a compile-time check in xfce4-powerman to see whether light-locker is there
[14:33] <ochosi> then just add a few settings
[14:33] <ochosi> a separate thingy could be an ok-fallback-solution though for people that don't use proper DEs
[14:34] <ochosi> what's more important, we've finally set up our translations in transifex.com, so it'll be easier for ppl to add/update the translations
[14:35] <bluesabre> sweet
[14:36] <bluesabre> actually, if you make a simple config for light-locker, the desktop entry could be set to OnlyShowIn=Xfce;LXDE etc
[14:37] <ochosi> sure
[14:37] <ochosi> but i think before we do that, it'd be nicer to get support into xfce4-powerman
[14:38] <ochosi> the main issue with that at the moment is anyway that lightdm would have to support the feature
[14:38] <ochosi> at the moment, the screen unblanks when light-locker starts the locking
[14:38] <ochosi> (because you get redirected to the unlock-screen)
[14:38] <ochosi> (and that spawns a new x-session, hence the dpms timeout is reset)
[14:39] <bluesabre> makes sense
[14:40] <ochosi> so lightdm would have to be called with some additional parameter or something to keep the screen blanked
[14:40] <bluesabre> but for that, wouldn't that be an ubuntu-specific patch for powerman since lightdm is not an xfce project?
[14:40] <ochosi> at least that'd be my approach
[14:40] <bluesabre> if ubuntu takes light-locker, they'll add that to lightdm for sure
[14:40] <ochosi> well hopefully
[14:41] <ochosi> not sure i got that, what ubuntu-specific patch do you mean?
[14:41] <bluesabre> ... and then break it for us potentially :)
[14:41] <ochosi> there'd not be a patch in the powermanager, but in lightdm
[14:41] <ochosi> and light-locker would keep its behavior as is
[14:41] <bluesabre> for xfce4-powerman to control light-locker timeout, enabled
[14:41] <ochosi> hence things should work on all distros shipping lightdm and light-locker
[14:41] <ochosi> xfce4-powerman would only control xset
[14:41] <ochosi> nothing else
[14:42] <ochosi> and probably the additional timeout, but that's over-the-top imo
[14:42] <bluesabre> oh!
[14:42] <bluesabre> hmmm
[14:42] <ochosi> 3-5secs should be fine from screen-blanking to screen-locking
[14:43] <ochosi> so, the way things work now:
[14:43] <ochosi> you set your "screensaver" with xset s $timeout
[14:44] <ochosi> then you start light-locker with the additional timeout parameter
[14:44] <ochosi> (as it is autostarted in the session, the distributor will usually set that one)
[14:44] <ochosi> and then after xset kicks in + light-locker-timeout, you get redirected to the login-screen
[14:45] <bluesabre> right
[14:45] <bluesabre> makes sense to me
[14:45] <ochosi> so all that needs to be added is for lightdm to keep the screen blanked in this case
[14:45] <bluesabre> awesome
[14:46] <ochosi> and an option in xfce4-powerman's UI to set the X-screensaver timeout
[14:47] <jjfrv8> bluesabre, ochosi, I've replaced the opening screenshot: http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=introduction
[14:47] <ochosi> jjfrv8: sweet! nice work
[14:47] <ochosi> i'll copy that over then
[14:47] <jjfrv8> the playback control bar turned light gray as soon as the video started playing, is that normal?
[14:47] <bluesabre> fantastic!
[14:47] <ochosi> yeah, it is
[14:48] <jjfrv8> ok, good.
[14:48] <ochosi> the bar should be transparent, but due to gstreamer, it isn't in windowed-mode
[14:48] <jjfrv8> ah
[14:48] <ochosi> so the transparency of the bar gets interpreted as being on a white background
[14:48] <ochosi> hence the brighter bg-color
[14:49] <ochosi> (the default screen has black bg, so the bg of the overlay is darker)
[14:51] <ochosi> jjfrv8: thanks a lot! done: http://docs.xfce.org/apps/parole/introduction
[14:52] <bluesabre> ochosi: on -offtopic, know what package he should report that bug for?
[14:52] <jjfrv8> :)
[14:52] <PhilDick> Morning ochosi
[14:53] <PhilDick> I just got my first xubuntu-devel mailing list digest, and it had like one request from an apparent outsider, and no other messages... is this correct or have I got something wrong?
[14:54] <ochosi> PhilDick: you can always check in the web-version of the ML archive
[14:54] <elfy> PhilDick: hi there - there's not been much on the list this week - the digest probably missed the long one I sent earlier :)
[14:54] <ochosi> PhilDick: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel
[14:54] <PhilDick> Good reminder thanks, just thought I'd shout out and be seen ;)
[14:54] <PhilDick> thanks for the quick link!
[14:56] <ochosi> bluesabre: problem is xfce4-powerman's lack of logind-support. not sure this'll get fixed in time before 14.04, so we'll be stuck with half-broken powermanagement
[14:57] <ochosi> don't think anyone in xfce-core will work on it
[14:58] <ochosi> not too many powerman-users there afaik
[15:06] <ochosi> jjfrv8: would you rather finish the usage page or shall i copy over what we have now?
[15:07] <ochosi> (totally up to you, i don't think either is a problem)
[15:07] <ochosi> jjfrv8: also, small feedback, i think instead of "
[15:07] <ochosi> "Removes all selections at once" it could be "Removes all items in the playlist at once."
[15:09] <ochosi> bluesabre: hm, we also need a part on keyboard-shortcuts in parole. would you rather put that in usage or on a separate page?
[15:10] <bluesabre> probably in usage
[15:10] <bluesabre> and should we mention in the docs where the auto-saved playlist is stored?
[15:10] <ochosi> yeah, probably a good idea
[15:11] <bluesabre> also document the right-click menu
[15:11] <ochosi> hmm, true
[15:11] <bluesabre> which I updated today
[15:11] <bluesabre> so be sure to pull the latest git
[15:11] <ochosi> you did? oh, haven't seen
[15:11] <bluesabre> I'll document the plugins
[15:13] <ochosi> cool
[15:17] <ochosi> noted the todo-stuff in your wiki, just not to forget it
[15:17] <bluesabre> thanks
[15:20] <jjfrv8> ochosi, good feedback. I made the change.
[15:20] <jjfrv8> I was going to do some more work on the Usage page...
[15:20] <jjfrv8> maybe try to link slickymaster's stuff into it...
[15:20] <jjfrv8> don't know how far I'll get today, though
[15:22] <jjfrv8> I was also thinking of putting in a section on kb shortcuts and will add bluesabre's suggestion about auto-saved location.
[15:22] <bluesabre> great!
[15:23] <jjfrv8> bluesabre, I will run updates. What should I look for with the right-click menu?
[15:24] <bluesabre> The order, previous should come before next track
[15:29] <jjfrv8> bluesabre, got the update but I don't think it changed. http://imagebin.org/275535
[15:31] <bluesabre> yeah, looks like the package hasn't rebuilt yet
[15:31] <bluesabre> I'll try to force it
[15:34] <bluesabre> ok, launchpad estimates the package should be rebuilt and available in around an hour
[15:35] <jjfrv8> sounds like lunchtime then :)
[15:36] <jjfrv8> bbiab
[15:43] <ochosi> jjfrv8: sweet! and bon appetit :)
[15:45] <ochosi> bluesabre: so you're still working on mpris2?
[15:45] <bluesabre> got distracted
[15:45] <ochosi> if you want, i can try to dig up some more example code, or something that's closer to what we need
[15:45] <bluesabre> :D
[15:45] <ochosi> hehe, nvm
[15:45] <bluesabre> I found some example code
[15:45] <bluesabre> inside of bluez
[15:46] <bluesabre> unfortunately, it seems to be registered as an active application with mpris, you have to use dbus-service
[15:46] <bluesabre> which makes for a lot of code
[15:47] <bluesabre> so I might put this off for now
[15:48] <ochosi> sure, no worries
[15:48] <ochosi> i added a plugin-part to the wiki
[15:48] <ochosi> is it as you'd expect?
[15:48] <ochosi> (staging site, ofc)
[15:48] <ochosi> alternatively we could have the plugins all on one page
[15:49] <bluesabre> I think it'd be best to have them on a single page
[15:49] <ochosi> yeah, with the amount of plugins we have now they can easily fit on one page
[15:49] <bluesabre> since they don't have many features
[15:51] <ochosi> ok, converted
[15:51] <bluesabre> think I might try to get some work done for menulibre now
[15:54] <ochosi> you mean the classical menu-editing stuff?
[15:54] <bluesabre> yeah
[15:54] <ochosi> wasn't that very messy and frustrating? :)
[15:55] <bluesabre> I've been doing a little bit at a time and thinking about how to best go about it
[15:55] <bluesabre> I think I've got a pretty clear idea of what to do now
[15:55] <ochosi> and UI wise?
[15:56] <bluesabre> for the classic view, I'm going for two panes
[15:56] <bluesabre> the left pane will be a folding applications view with DnD
[15:56] <bluesabre> the right pane will be the standard menulibre editor
[15:57] <bluesabre> just not the iconview
[15:57] <bluesabre> the modern view will stay the same
[15:57] <bluesabre> or I can get rid of the modern view and just go full-classic
[15:57] <bluesabre> since the editor is the good part
[15:58] <bluesabre> either way, the new design will make it a lot more modular
[15:58] <bluesabre> and easier to hack on
[15:58] <ochosi> folding applications?
[15:59] <ochosi> a listview with extenders?
[15:59] <bluesabre> a multi-level treeview
[15:59] <bluesabre> yeah, that
[15:59] <ochosi> for the categories?
[15:59] <bluesabre> yup
[15:59] <ochosi> i see
[15:59] <bluesabre> think xfce menu inside of a treeview
[16:00] <ochosi> sure sure
[16:00] <bluesabre> or combining the two panes from alacarte
[16:00] <ochosi> the extenders would show what? apps or just subfolders?
[16:00] <bluesabre> both
[16:00] <ochosi> so the right pane would only be in use for the details/editing
[16:00] <bluesabre> yes
[16:01] <ochosi> not bad, but imagine you have tons of apps
[16:01] <ochosi> the left side will get pretty... long
[16:01] <bluesabre> it will be completed folder by default, just showing the categories
[16:01] <bluesabre> and search will still work
[16:01] <bluesabre> s/folder/folded
[16:02] <ochosi> sure, i'm just imagining extending a category and ending up with a really long list :)
[16:02] <bluesabre> it could happen :)
[16:02] <ochosi> but otoh i don't think there's a much better way
[16:02] <bluesabre> and it does even with the xfce menu
[16:04] <bluesabre> I'll try to have something working this/next weekend
[16:07] <ochosi> wow, sounds nice
[16:08] <bluesabre> emphasis on try
[16:09] <ochosi> :)
[17:12] <ochosi> jjfrv8: i added in a placeholder for the kb-shortcuts, do you want me to keep the autosaved-playlist-location on the todo-list on the first page for you?
[17:13] <ochosi> anyway, if you don't need that reminder, just feel free to drop it from the frontpage :)
[17:14] <jjfrv8> ochosi, it's okay to leave the reminder there.
[17:14] <jjfrv8> I'm having some issues, though, with dokuwiki...
[17:14] <ochosi> yes?
[17:15] <jjfrv8> I was trying to figure out how to integrate all the menu pages...
[17:15] <jjfrv8> it seemed like it was going to create a very large single page but I could not figure out how to break it up...
[17:15] <jjfrv8> without creating sub-namespaces on the main wiki page...
[17:16] <ochosi> go ahead and create sub-namespaces
[17:16] <ochosi> i don't see any issues with that
[17:16] <jjfrv8> so I wanted to see if just the TOC on the top right of the page would be enough...
[17:16] <ochosi> e.g. parole:menu:*
[17:16] <jjfrv8> that's when I got into trouble with formatting
[17:17] <ochosi> i mean to the worst the TOC helps ppl to navigate
[17:18] <jjfrv8> just a sec, I'll show you what I mean
[17:19] <ochosi> sure, thanks
[17:19] <jjfrv8> as the TOC got longer, it pushed my first screenshot down the page and there was a big gap. So I pasted another image in without the "Figure"
[17:20] <jjfrv8> and now I any new text wants to flow around the screenshots. So here's my current workaround: http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=playground:playground
[17:23] <jjfrv8> why the first screenshot is not centered like the others, I don't know
[17:23] <ochosi> hmm strange
[17:24] <ochosi> looks like a bug in the dokuwiki theme
[17:24] <jjfrv8> Yeah, in bluesabre's intro page, the first line of text went under the screenshot just fine. It doesn't work that way in my page...
[17:24] <jjfrv8> it will flow around the first screenshot, unless I make it a "figure"
[17:25] <bluesabre> you have to tell the image to be centered
[17:25] <bluesabre> I don't remember how to at this point though
[17:25] <ochosi> you have to add spaces
[17:26] <ochosi> instead of {{wiki:usage-intro:intro-main-window-plain.png?nolink |}}
[17:26] <ochosi> use {{ wiki:usage-intro:intro-main-window-plain.png?nolink |}}
[17:26] <ochosi> the space after {{ means left-aligned, the one before |}} means right-aligned
[17:26] <ochosi> both together mean centered
[17:27] <ochosi> but i'm not sure that really solves your problem
[17:27] <jjfrv8> ooh, let me try that.
[17:27] <ochosi> problem is anyway that the TOC takes away some precious width for the first few paragraphs...
[17:28] <ochosi> ristretto worked around it by adding some text-only stuff on the top of the page: http://docs.xfce.org/apps/ristretto/preferences
[17:29] <jjfrv8> badda bing! I think that might just do it.
[17:29] <ochosi> cool
[17:30] <ochosi> although i have to admit the text in ristretto is a bit superfluous, duplicating the TOC :)
[17:31] <elfy> they perhaps had the same discussion - just had it first :)
[17:31] <ochosi> hehe, possible
[17:32] <elfy> shame you can't have to TOC 'floating' so it is always visible and the doc itself fits in the rest of the pane
[17:33] <jjfrv8> does this look all right? http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=playground:playground
[17:33] <jjfrv8> it repeats the main window shot but I thought it might be weird to show it with the highlights right off the bat anyway
[17:36] <ochosi> hm, yeah it's a bit repetetive
[17:36] <ochosi> as we have a very similar screenshot in "intro"
[17:36] <ochosi> i don't have a problem with showing the highlights directly, i think that is very nice and useful
[17:37] <ochosi> (but ideally that screener wouldn't be scaled down)
[17:37] <jjfrv8> okay, I can left-align it without using 'figure' and that should do it.
[17:38] <ochosi> righty, go ahead
[17:38] <ochosi> also, we can figure out these formatting issues when the page is kinda finished
[17:38] <ochosi> who knows, maybe more notes in the beginning will become necessary
[17:38] <jjfrv8> ok
[17:45] <jjfrv8> shall we leave it like this for now? http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=playground:playground
[17:46] <ochosi> jjfrv8: you can put the text "The three main parts..." above the screenshot, that might help with the alignment
[17:47] <ochosi> just replace "above" with "below" in the text ;)
[17:47] <jjfrv8> k
[17:47] <ochosi> oh, and you could actually link those 3 headlines to parts of the page
[17:48] <jjfrv8> !
[18:00] <ochosi> jjfrv8: alright, i think i gotta leave for tonight
[18:00] <ochosi> feel free to ping me whenever problems occur or when you've finished another part that i can copy over to docs.xfce
[18:00] <jjfrv8> I think I do too.  Thanks for your help. I might be able to finish enough to copy it over tomorrow.
[18:00] <ochosi> thanks again for your efforts, really great!
[18:01] <ochosi> sounds good
[18:01] <jjfrv8> will do.
[18:01] <ochosi> have a nice evening everyone
[19:40] <Noskcaj> Does anyone know why xubuntu-bugs is subscribed to convertall ?
[19:41] <elfy> I don't
[19:47] <Noskcaj> It would be a good thing to include in xubuntu, but since it's not, i don't see why -bugs is subscribed
[19:48] <elfy> the only idea I have is that it was done before I got mails re that bug
[19:48] <elfy> no idea what it even is 
[19:53] <Noskcaj> It's a really powerful unit converter, that i now maintain in debian
[19:54] <elfy> unit converter?
[19:54] <Noskcaj> e.g. meters to feet
[19:54] <elfy> oic 
[19:55] <elfy> I can't see any reason to have that in Xubuntu 
[19:55] <elfy> not sure why we'd be subscribed to it either, given what it is :)
[19:57] <elfy> Noskcaj: I can't even see how we're subscribed to it
[19:58] <elfy> nvm - yes I can lol - time to turn it off and go sit elsewhere ... 
[20:33] <Noskcaj> bluesabre, Why does the build.py for catfish import so many unused modules? is it just to check that all dependencies are installed?
[20:48] <PhilDick> I'm trying to get up-to-speed on testing for 14.04.  I'm looking here: http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/306/builds/55995/testcases, but I don't see any download instructions that describe what environment/setup I need to have in place before testing.  I know I'm newb, any advice appreciated.
[20:49] <PhilDick> I mean the link to "install instructions" links to a page with no apparent instructions...
[20:53] <Noskcaj> PhilDick, Are you trying to use a VM or install on actual hardware?
[20:54] <PhilDick> I could go down either path, I was thinking about setting up a new partition on my actual hardware
[20:54] <PhilDick> Easiest that gets me going is probably best
[20:55] <Noskcaj> How much RAM do you have?
[20:55] <PhilDick> I have older hardware currently, AMD X2 + 4Gb RAM
[20:55] <PhilDick> I've ran VirtualBox on this box on the past, was usable, but haven't used it lately
[20:56] <Noskcaj> for a VM, install the program testdrive-gtk. For real hardware, put the iso on a usb or dvd and install it with manual partitioning
[20:56] <PhilDick> Where do I find xubuntu 14.04 iso?
[20:58] <Noskcaj> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/20131102/ or in testdrive
[20:58] <PhilDick> Thank you.  I need to figure out testdrive more, but I might start with the iso for now... guess that changes daily though.
[20:58] <PhilDick> I'm just trying to keep at it for now, keep moving forward and take notes.
[21:18] <Noskcaj> bluesabre, I've made a start at pep8 conversion for catfish at lp:~noskcaj/catfish-search/pep8 . Would you like all changes in the one branch?
[21:48] <bluesabre> Noskcaj: Your awesomeness never ends, does it?
[21:48] <bluesabre> By all means, one branch would be fine.
[21:56] <Noskcaj> bluesabre, thanks, i should have all the pep8/flake8 fixes by the end of the day (australia time).
[21:56] <bluesabre> fantastic, thanks a lot!
[21:59] <bluesabre> in case you get excited, don't worry about doing that for menulibre yet, I'm currently rewriting it :)
[22:07] <ochosi> bluesabre: idea (menulibre): use the traditional view for normal editing, use the "new/current view" for search-results
[22:08] <brainwash> ochosi: just curious, wouldn't it be possible to fork gnome-screensaver and copy the interface of lightd-gtk-greeter?
[22:09] <brainwash> I still dislike the vt switching :(
[22:09] <ochosi> that was our initial idea before creating light-locker
[22:09] <ochosi> but it makes user-switching more cumbersome
[22:09] <ochosi> and the cleanest approach is to use lightdm
[22:09] <bluesabre> vt-switching has one very annoying drawback
[22:09] <bluesabre> audio
[22:10] <ochosi> (in fact we started out with that, a gnome-screensaver using the .ui file of the gtk-greeter)
[22:10] <brainwash> well, it would still use lightdm for this
[22:10] <brainwash> mmh
[22:10] <bluesabre> ochosi: not sure if that would be a good thing for menulibre or not, but I can definitely experiment with it :)
[22:11] <ochosi> bluesabre: well it's such a pity to see the current view going away... i really like it and think it's easy to use and simple
[22:12] <ochosi> bluesabre: all for editing the traditional menu, when we might switch to something like whiskermenu (which uses categories as well, not a fixed menu-file afaik)
[22:12] <ochosi> and then who else uses fixed menus like xfce/xubuntu does atm?
[22:13] <brainwash> lxde
[22:13] <bluesabre> oh, we don't use a single fixed file
[22:13] <bluesabre> if that was the case it would be easy
[22:13] <ochosi> brainwash: my hope is that the lightdm guys will figure out taking away the pain of vt-switching
[22:13] <ochosi> brainwash: e.g. with fading or some Mir-trick, who knows
[22:15] <brainwash> mir trick? xfce won't support mir any time soon
[22:15] <ochosi> i guess not, but maybe wayland will help
[22:16] <ochosi> anyway, stripping out the gnome-components isnt that hard, and you can pick up from a commit where we did that with light-locker and then implement the gtk-greeter UI ;)
[22:17] <brainwash> sounds interesting
[22:19] <brainwash> btw I was about to create a PPA for xfce4-panel with support gtk3 indicators, but gave up after like 1 minute.. "how the heck do I build the packages?!"
[22:19] <brainwash> :)
[22:20] <brainwash> local I assume, or?
[22:20] <ochosi> building locally should work fine with the instructions in the wiki
[22:21] <brainwash> and how do I upload the packages?
[22:21] <ochosi> dput?
[22:22] <brainwash> ok, looks like need to read some more tutorials
[22:22] <brainwash> I
[22:22] <brainwash> so far I've only uploaded the changes files and the packages have been built remotely
[22:23] <ochosi> that's the only way i've done it either
[22:23] <ochosi> micahg might know more about that
[22:24] <brainwash> still waiting for someone to create a PPA for the panel, but nothing so far, so why not try it myself :)
[22:25] <ochosi> yeah, sounds good
[22:26] <brainwash> btw bug 1205384
[22:26] <brainwash> still not fixed
[22:26] <ochosi> only way to fix it is by using gnome-screensaver or light-locker or something like that
[22:26] <brainwash> or switch back to xscreensaver
[22:28] <Noskcaj> brainwash, You need to use dput, with the target as your ppa and this input as a .changes file made by debuild -S
[22:32] <brainwash> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Saucy/Gtk3Indicators
[22:33] <brainwash> what about the dependencies?
[22:34] <Noskcaj> brainwash, Are they in the ubuntu repositories? (if so, just make them build-dependancies)
[22:35] <Noskcaj> If not, find a way to link PPAs or upload them
[22:35] <brainwash> most are, but newer versions are needed also
[22:35] <Noskcaj> Maybe upload the stuff from the pkg-xfce debian SVN?
[22:36] <Noskcaj> I don't really know, ask micahg or mr_pouit 
[22:36] <ali1234> micahg was trying to package the indicator stuff, but got problems
[22:36] <ali1234> the problem is mainly that we need to package from a random arbitrary git commit, not a real release
[22:36] <brainwash> maybe it's a bit too complicated for me at this point, started to learn how to build packages for a PPA just yesterday
[22:38] <ali1234> tweaking something that is already packaged is much easier
[22:39] <ochosi> actually the branch is mergeable
[22:39] <ochosi> i hope it will happen soon
[22:40] <ali1234> ochosi: i found the appindicator problem, and a couple more bugs in the process
[22:41] <ochosi> ali1234: right, so what's going on there?
[22:41] <ali1234> well it looks like some gtk3 changes got backported to gtk2, but the special case code in appindicator was not removed
[22:42] <ochosi> hmpf
[22:42] <ali1234> i asked tedg about it, but he couldn't remember anything useful
[22:42] <ochosi> lordy
[22:42] <ali1234> it's actually in libdbusmenu, not libappindicator
[22:42] <ochosi> so was he at least interesetd in the fix?
[22:42] <ali1234> hard to say. i only got a 1 line reply
[22:43] <ali1234> annoyingly, libdbusmenu cannot be built in a ppa because one of the tests fails only in a ppa - where you cannot get the log to find out why
[22:44] <ali1234> all this is reported on the relevant bugs, which have been met with stony silence
[22:44] <ochosi> email to ayatana ML?
[22:44] <ali1234> i guess so. that ML looks dead tbh... only a couple of posts per week
[22:45] <ali1234> last time i tried to post my message never got through the moderation queue
[22:46] <ochosi> there's a moderation queue even if you're subscribed?
[22:46] <ali1234> i don't think you can post at all if you're not subscribed
[22:46] <ochosi> hmm
[22:49] <brainwash> ochosi: bug 1247470
[22:49] <brainwash> looks like greybird
[22:49] <brainwash> see the attached screenshot
[22:52] <ali1234> i might just hit the "request merge" button on my libdbusmenu branch... at least then someone might look at it
[22:53] <ali1234> correction: the ayatana design list is now known as unity-design and hasn't had a post in over a month
[22:56] <ochosi> ali1234: yeah, try with a merge-request
[22:56] <ochosi> can't hurt
[22:57] <ochosi> but also be sure to ping someone about it
[22:58] <ochosi> brainwash: i'm not sure there's much i can do about it, ff isn't even gtk
[22:58] <ochosi> i've never seen this so far
[22:59] <brainwash> greybird is most likely not even the cause
[22:59] <brainwash> so ff is not gtk.. how do you theme it then? o.o
[23:00] <ochosi> firefox uses XUL and with some black magic it tries to resemble gtk
[23:00] <ochosi> but some stuff almost always looks different, like tabs
[23:01] <ochosi> not very noticeable, but also because i decided not to do anything crazy with greybird
[23:01] <ochosi> tooltips are always square
[23:01] <ochosi> and more stuff i guess
[23:02] <brainwash> maybe the next ff release will fix it
[23:02] <ochosi> that particular bug? yeah, maybe
[23:02] <ochosi> or are you referring to the UI changes in firefox that are coming up sometime later this year?
[23:03] <ochosi> (iirc i read something like that a while ago)
[23:03] <brainwash> the tooltip one
[23:07] <ochosi> night everyone
[23:07] <brainwash> ochosi: good night
[23:31] <ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-datetime/+bug/1228360 sounds like the same thing we've seen with xfce4-panel
[23:35] <PhilDick> If there's somewhere else I should ask, please point me there... #ubuntu-quality?
[23:36] <PhilDick> I'm trying to get testdrive-gtk working... 1) It has two identical looking entries for xubuntu Trusty Tahr 2) When I "launch" either one, nothing happens... is there an environment needed that the package doesn't check for?
[23:40] <ali1234> yeah #ubuntu-quality is your best bet
[23:40] <PhilDick> thx
[23:40] <ali1234> but there won't be anyone there on a saturday night
[23:40] <PhilDick> what kind of geeks are these??? ;)
[23:40] <ali1234> paid ones
[23:40] <PhilDick> LOL
[23:40] <ali1234> also, i have to day, we know plenty of bugs in xubuntu already
[23:40] <PhilDick> day = say?
[23:40] <ali1234> *say
[23:41] <PhilDick> I just want to get in the loop early so I'm able to get involved...
[23:41] <PhilDick> I think I can download an iso and point it at that...
[23:41] <ali1234> this is just my opinion, but i am not really impressed by the iso testing stuff. it appears to be just another step to make bug reporting harder
[23:42] <PhilDick> Yah, I'm a little ... challenged by the lack of a "just get started testing" howto
[23:42] <PhilDick> not giving up yet, but only have so much time...
[23:43] <skellat> ali1234: Make sure you attend the virtual session at Ubuntu Developer Summit in three weeks or so.  Bug Reporting & Quality Assurance will have a panel going on.
[23:44] <ali1234> skellat: i did all that SRU stuff
[23:44] <ali1234> i have no idea if i did it right though
[23:44] <skellat> Someone will comment on the bug if you didn't
[23:45] <skellat> The current vUDS-1311 panels list is here: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/all/
[23:45] <ali1234> i never know what to do at vUDS
[23:46] <skellat> ali1234: From the Xubuntu perspective, mostly observe
[23:46] <skellat> If you can chime in via IRC, try
[23:46] <skellat> But mostly observe
[23:46] <PhilDick> skellat, excellent, I was wondering about those workshops... I'll have to check the UTC it's going on at
[23:46] <ali1234> they're not workshops - we do do those though
[23:46] <ali1234> UDS is like planning meetings
[23:47] <PhilDick> I heard balloons say something about upcoming QA workshops
[23:47] <ali1234> yeah, that will probably be after UDS
[23:47] <Noskcaj> PhilDick, Yeah, we've got logs of old ones if you wanted a look
[23:48] <skellat> The more community-related matters that fall under LoCo Council's remit are being separated to a different summit if we manage to pull things together in time.  Tentatively that's supposed to be scheduled for November 23rd so that'll leave vUDS-1311 a lot more focused on tech & planning.
[23:48] <ali1234> lol, forking UDS?
[23:48] <skellat> ali1234: Yep
[23:48] <Noskcaj> The QA workshops might be different since phill has left most of ubuntu and we think good wiki pages and videos would be more useful
[23:49] <ali1234> lordy. things are getting weird
[23:49] <PhilDick> Noskcaj sounds useful, can you point me towards them? IRC logs I guess?
[23:50] <skellat> ali1234: It more comes down to a time factor.  For LoCo Council it is easier for the others to participate on the weekend.  The vUDS-1308 schedule was a little too jam packed so taking stuff that would be under our remit out should balance nicely.
[23:50] <ali1234> PhilDick: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
[23:50] <ali1234> skellat: i never really understood what the council does anyway
[23:50] <ali1234> except for "free PR"
[23:51] <skellat> ali1234: Equip, Advise, Mentor for local communities.  Help them keep going, intervene with Canonical if they need help, and otherwise serve as back-end support.
[23:52] <skellat> All of this being said, I'm probably going to have to give thought to Three Nights of Xubuntu appearing again
[23:52] <ali1234> but what do LoCos actually do?
[23:53] <Noskcaj> ali1234, translations, support, mirror hosting, installfests, release partys
[23:55] <skellat> To a certain extent, this session on testing the upgrade path from 12.04 to 14.04 makes me nervous: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21973/core-1311-lts-upgrade-testing/
[23:56] <PhilDick> thanks for the link ali1234. Also, I've moved to only running LTS's so I'm... wondering what makes you nervous?  I have to reboot to another partition, brb
[23:56] <ali1234> there's different types of LTS now too, with enablement or without...
[23:57] <skellat> Generally we don't have hardware enablement stacks in Xubuntu so that's not an issue
[23:57] <skellat> Ubuntu gets those but we don't
[23:57] <PhilDick> hmmm, tell me more when I come back...
[23:57] <ali1234> automated anything makes me nervous
[23:58] <ali1234> if the developer remembered to write a test, they probably remembered not to cause the bug in the first place