[07:16] <MooDoo> morning all
[08:05] <diplo> Morning all
[08:12] <Myrtti> morning
[08:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> Morning all.
[08:32] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yet another "inset"day... I don't remember these at all when I was at school.
[08:32] <popey> my code club school have one tomorrow.
[08:32] <popey> so no code club this week
[08:34] <diplo> Mine are both off as well TheOpenSourcerer, today and tomorrow
[08:34] <diplo> And 2 days at the end of the week before last
[08:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> gosh diplo that's mad!
[08:37] <diplo> Yep, had a rather heated arguement with a couple of teachers
[08:37] <TheOpenSourcerer> So they've basically had a 2 week half term
[08:37] <diplo> And we agreed to disagree in the end, yep!
[08:37] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[08:37] <diplo> They came back at me with well we work these hours and we do this and we do that.
[08:37] <popey> uhm
[08:38] <popey> they are at work on the inset days
[08:38] <diplo> I said funnily enough I work more hours than you for less pay and less holiday and I havent striked yet
[08:38] <popey> its not additional days off
[08:38] <diplo> But it's additional days off for me! Why not take them in the school holidays
[08:38] <popey> because thats their contracted holiday
[08:39] <popey> would you give up your family holiday and go back to work
[08:39] <diplo> Nope, not the whole lot, they don't have all the holidays off
[08:39] <popey> I didn't say all
[08:39] <AlanBell> #blameKennethBaker
[08:39] <diplo> But my point is, don't close the school. We don't close our offices because people need training.
[08:40] <popey> you probably have more redundancy than most schools
[08:40] <popey> don't you want your teachers trained?
[08:40] <ali1234> take your kids to work
[08:40] <ali1234> problem solved
[08:40] <popey> and if you aren't at your desk there aren't 20/30 people sat around doing nothing as a result (as is the case for school)
[08:41] <BigRedS> popey: there is a difference between "train the teachers when they aren't at school" and "don't train the teachers"
[08:41] <ali1234> yeah as if they would be "sat around doing nothing"
[08:41] <ali1234> more like starting a riot
[08:41] <BigRedS> much as I don't follow the bewilderment at inset days
[08:41] <popey> heh, true
[08:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> Anyone fancy a free Galaxy Tab (Think it's an old one but it's "free")... http://www.trefor.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Mailing_LONAP_EN.html
[08:41] <ali1234> it takes about 5 minutes of no teacher for a classroom full of kids to turn into lord of the flies
[08:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> You just have to visit every stand at a trade show.
[08:41] <BigRedS> ali1234: sounds like a valuable educational experience
[08:42] <BigRedS> TheOpenSourcerer: I can't help but wonder just how awful a show must be to make bribing people with a tablet viable
[08:43] <popey> heh
[08:43] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol - Smasung are sponsoring and it's their old tab. They've probably got millions sitting in a drawer somwhere.
[08:44]  * popey ponders breakfast
[08:45] <Myrtti> I'm wondering if today will be a mini-Christmas
[08:46] <Myrtti> I'm waiting for all kinds of deliveries, including socks, spices, phone cases, handkerchiefs, and phones.
[08:49]  * popey wonders where his 3doodler is
[08:50]  * xnox hates my local pub, walked up for a full english breakfast, but they are still closed =(
[08:51] <BigRedS> 'hate' seems rather strong for that...
[08:52] <Myrtti> popey: turns out someone has been participating in so many Kickstarter campaigns he's polluted our Avocado "Waiting to be delivered" list with them
[08:53] <popey> ☻
[09:28] <popey> Egg Banjo!
[09:28] <jussi> popey: sounds messy...?
[09:30] <mungbean> its always spooky when you accidentally click on an exe file in linux and wine just pops the application up
[09:30] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[09:31] <jussi> morning brobostigon
[09:31] <brobostigon> morning jussi
[09:31] <jussi> mungbean: brings back memories from1999 :P
[09:31] <bashrc> morning
[09:31] <brobostigon> morning bashrc
[09:33] <mungbean> what's the equivalent of kazam for windows? need to screencast a bug
[09:35] <popey> fraps
[09:36] <mungbean> thx
[09:36] <mungbean> i am proud to be a windows noob nowadsys
[09:36] <BigRedS> haha, I got a replacement board and graphics card for my windows pc over the weekend. Suddenyl realised I had no idea how to install the right drivers etc.
[09:37] <BigRedS> Not sure I'm *proud* of it but it's nice to not be able to fix most people's computers for them :)
[09:41] <mungbean> mud sticks
[09:41] <mungbean> and i have a wide family
[09:42] <mungbean> (they're not fat)
[09:46] <popey> mungbean: so you've exhausted all your distro & desktop swaps and the only option left was Windows?
[09:46] <mungbean> i had to test a bug reported by a user
[09:47] <mungbean> you may be surprised to hear this but...
[09:47] <mungbean> i've been happy on elementary for over a year
[09:47] <mungbean> my DE usage has gone from KDE->gnome2->every DE under the sun for 1 yr->elementary
[09:48] <mungbean> my home laptop is on unity for the missis
[09:49] <popey> phew
[09:49] <mungbean> at some point during the wandering years i've become an LTS man
[09:49] <mungbean> i think thats age + time available for tinkering
[09:50] <mungbean> elementary setup is v v similar to how i had gonem2 anyway
[09:51] <mungbean> popey: when learning git, was there a particular tutorial you followed?
[09:51] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Use Your Common Sense Day! :-D
[10:01] <BigRedS> so I don't need to for the rest of the year?
[10:02] <JamesTait> "The problem with common sense is it ain't that common."
[10:06] <jussi> JamesTait: isnt that day everyday?
[10:07] <popey> mungbean: the one Lorna Jane posted
[10:07] <JamesTait> jussi, I wish someone had told the rest of the world that. ;)
[10:07] <jussi> JamesTait: ++
[10:08] <popey> mungbean:
[10:08] <popey> bah
[10:08] <popey> http://teach.github.com/presentations/git-foundations.html#/
[10:09] <MooDoo> JamesTait: i've got non, does that mean my day can't be happy?
[10:09] <mungbean> cheers
[10:10] <JamesTait> MooDoo, you can be happy marvelling at the common sense of those around you. :-P
[10:10] <MooDoo> JamesTait: I work in tech support, there is non in here ;)
[10:11] <mungbean> i have a user who runs all of his appliactions from another server even though his own pc can run them fine. e.g. openoffice, xdvi, etc, etc, all X displayed
[10:11] <mungbean> this is the user who suffered serious stress when asked to change his password
[10:12] <BigRedS> it's not uncommon for users to carry on with what works even when there's an apparently technically better solution
[10:12] <mungbean> yeah, they all continued logging ont that server to run pine even though they could run pine on their own pc, a problem that went away in the 90s
[10:14] <Myrtti> stupid Parcelforce
[10:15] <BigRedS> mungbean: yeah, but did logging on to the server to run pine ever stop working?
[10:16] <BigRedS> I still apparently do things to solve long-solved problems simply because there's never been a particularly good reason to stop
[10:17] <BigRedS> I think that's the reasoning behind most of my annoyance at Ubunt or Unity
[10:19] <dubaco_1> hardware: asus k53u software: ubuntu 13.10 internet connection: virgin media 30 mbps breadband, recording an actual speed of 16.6289062 Mbps. why am i unable to streem a bbc iplayer radio programme then?
[10:19] <BigRedS> dubaco_1: what happens when you try?
[10:21] <dubaco_1> i can stream tv. no issue, no buffering... when i try radio it says i have insuffficient bandwidth
[10:22] <dubaco_1> i cant stream google play movies though
[10:25] <dubaco_1> i can listen to radiosveriges p3 no issues.
[10:27] <dubaco_1> BigRedS, *
[10:45] <BigRedS> sorry, ended up on the phone
[10:45] <BigRedS> dubaco_1: not that I can be particularly helpful; seems the BBC's just mis-estimating your bandwidth
[10:46] <BigRedS> which is weird; I use iplayer radio all the time and I don't think I've ever had that
[10:46] <BigRedS> a workaround would be to get_iplayer it, but without knowing the BBC's metrics it's going to be hard to tell what's wrong there
[10:50] <dubaco_1> get_iplayer wont work anymore
[10:51] <BigRedS> wont it? I used it the other day for telly stuff
[10:51] <BigRedS> not tried on radio for a while, though
[10:52] <popey> get_iplayer doesn't work for radio
[10:59] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:01] <BigRedS> when did that happen?
[11:03] <BigRedS> looks okay to me: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6358192/
[11:03] <popey> hmm, didnt for me
[11:03] <popey> odd
[11:04] <mungbean> ERROR: Failed to get version pid metadata from iplayer site
[11:05] <mungbean> BigRedS: that works for me too
[11:05] <mungbean> gonna try again
[11:06] <BigRedS> mungbean: that looked more like failure than "works for me too" :)
[11:06] <mungbean> i tried your command rather than my own
[11:06] <BigRedS> ohh
[11:06] <BigRedS> I haven't checked that the audio file works, though
[11:06] <mungbean> ./get_iplayer shaun --get
[11:07] <mungbean> yep, works
[11:07] <mungbean> v2.82
[11:07] <BigRedS> I've got 2.83-1 out of the 13.10 repos
[11:08] <mungbean> ooh look at you
[11:08] <mungbean> ;)
[11:11] <BigRedS> haha
[11:11] <BigRedS> gotta keep up-to-date with command-line means of watching the telly
[11:11] <mungbean> anyone want a free flight from brisbane to melbourne?
[11:11] <mungbean> 31 dec
[11:13] <mungbean> ordered by another mr mungbean who doesn't know his own email
[11:13] <mungbean> i can also change the flight :-|
[11:14] <BigRedS> haha
[11:15] <directhex> mungbean,  http://xkcd.com/1279/
[11:15] <mungbean> relevant++
[11:16] <mungbean> wish i'd realised this when i thought i was being clever by snatching m.mungbean rather than mungo.mungbean@gmail.com
[11:17]  * popey logs into his gmail account for the first time in a while
[11:17] <BigRedS> If I add a facebook account to Online Accounts does it do anything more than enable chat in Empathy? I'm trying to use Empathy but it doesn't seem to want tot talk to Facebook or Google via XMPP
[11:19] <directhex> BigRedS, google blocked external xmpp
[11:19] <directhex> BECAUSE FREEDOM
[11:19] <popey> ah look, a mail from a curtain company to someone called Alan Pope
[11:20] <BigRedS> directhex: external xmpp works in pidgin
[11:21] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[11:21] <BigRedS> directhex: oh, google the noun not google the verb
[11:21] <directhex> BigRedS, i mean you can't xmpp a google user from a non-google user
[11:21] <BigRedS> yeah, I'm a google user - I've always just plugged my google account details into pidgin
[11:22] <BigRedS> and then I get google talk in my IM client
[11:22] <directhex> also, google hangouts is not xmpp. google talk was
[11:22] <BigRedS> still is, it seems
[11:23] <BigRedS> This works in Pidgin on this machine, but not in Empathy, so I'm unconvinced the problem's at Google
[11:24] <Myrtti> the only thing that broke with gtalk <--> gtalk thing with the new Hangouts is that Empathy can't do the video call anymore
[11:24] <Myrtti> as far as I can tell
[11:24] <BigRedS> ah, do you have google working in empathy?
[11:25] <MooDoo> seems to work ok, although I don't have my laptop with me at the moment.
[11:25] <Myrtti> I can do chat with it to SO using Hanouts on his mobile
[11:25] <Myrtti> Hangouts, even
[11:26] <ali1234> empathy never could do video
[11:26] <ali1234> i mean it said it could, but it never actually worked
[11:27] <Myrtti> ali1234: oh ok, I must've dreamed it then.
[11:27] <BigRedS> MooDoo: ah, fair enough. Do you know if you configured it as an XMPP account or as a Google one?
[11:27] <davmor2> ali1234: it worked for me before now but it is ugly
[11:28] <BigRedS> I'm a bit concerned at Google or Facebook taking over other things that I don't want them to if I add them as an "Online Account" rather than as a jabber account
[11:29] <ali1234> the reason it does not work is because gtalk uses a proprietary codec
[11:29] <ali1234> empathy <-> empathy over gtalk works
[11:29] <ali1234> if the other person is using an official google clientm you cannot talk to them
[11:29] <BigRedS> bah.
[11:29] <davmor2> ali1234: ah yeah that would be why we were both testing empathy at the time :)
[11:30] <BigRedS> can empathy use whatever it is that pidgin uses?
[11:30] <ali1234> pidgin has the same problem
[11:30] <ali1234> and yes, it can use libpurple plugins
[11:30] <ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pidgin/+bug/735651 here is the bug i reported about this two and a half years ago
[11:31] <BigRedS> Oh, I'm not interested in video
[11:31] <BigRedS> all I want is textual xmpp
[11:32] <ali1234> works fine
[11:32] <BigRedS> mine doesn't
[11:32] <ali1234> well, empathy is probably broken
[11:32] <ali1234> it works fine in pidgin as an XMPP account
[11:32] <BigRedS> yeah, I don't doubt that. But I wonder how it's broken such that I can XMPP to work's jabber server but not to google's
[11:32] <BigRedS> yeah, and all of them work fine in pidgin
[11:33] <BigRedS> but the 'indicator' in the top bar is actually a menu button and the closest I can get to working indicators is the left bar
[11:33] <ali1234> no idea what you mean
[11:33] <BigRedS> bug 1243240
[11:34] <BigRedS> so, to get the feature whereby I can see unread emails and unread IMs as different things I need to use the icons on the left bar, I think. But Pidgin doesn't integrate into that
[11:34] <penguin42> ali1234: Very few of them work with each other, I was at a meeting where we tried to do video/audio conf with free tools and pretty much failed
[11:35] <BigRedS> I did find a howto, but just using Empathy appeared easier, especially since it's apparently the blessed IM app and so I assumed least-broken
[11:35] <ali1234> BigRedS: pidgin shows you unread emails as well as IMs anyway, so that's impossible
[11:36] <BigRedS> ali1234: what?
[11:36] <BigRedS> I've never known pidgin show me emails
[11:36] <ali1234> you probably don't have any email accounts added to it
[11:36]  * penguin42 has never noticed a way to add email to it
[11:36] <mungbean> pidgin stores a lot in clear text
[11:36] <BigRedS> oh, no. is it a mail reader?
[11:37] <ali1234> just add a XMPP account for gtalk. when you get gmail, pidgin tells you
[11:37] <mungbean> like your gmail chat passwords
[11:37] <ali1234> same with MSN/hotmail
[11:37] <BigRedS> ali1234: is there some bonus to that? I don't want my emails in my IM client
[11:37] <mungbean> notifications, not emails
[11:38] <BigRedS> my actual problem is that I want two icons - one of which tells me if I have unread email and another that tells me if I have unread IMs
[11:38] <ali1234> well the bonus is that i don't have to run thunderbird and let it download all 4GB of email just to get an alert when i've got a new mail, which i will read in a browser anyway because thunderbird is rubbish
[11:38] <mungbean> i used to use an app for that
[11:38] <BigRedS> mungbean: was it XFCE?
[11:38] <BigRedS> :)
[11:40] <mungbean> gmail-notifier
[11:40] <mungbean> was great, but ubuntu killed it
[11:40] <mungbean> s/unity/
[11:40] <davmor2> BigRedS: you can view the icons in the launcher for Unity
[11:41] <BigRedS> davmor2: is the launcher the thing on the left?
[11:41] <ali1234> it's one of the things n the left...
[11:41] <ali1234> mungbean: what happened to gmail-notifier?
[11:42] <BigRedS> the thing on the left with the icons in it? Where Thunderbird has a little number telling me the unread emails?
[11:42] <popey> "ubuntu killed it"
[11:42] <davmor2> BigRedS: Yes the icons have numbers in for mail and im
[11:42] <BigRedS> davmor2: pidgin doesn't have numbers in but empathy does
[11:42] <ali1234> because i just fixed a bug that killed most third party indicators in saucy...
[11:42] <mungbean> stopped working due to changes brought about by the systray
[11:42] <mungbean> author didn't update it
[11:42] <BigRedS> hence my trying empathy and noticing that it cannot XMPP to goofle
[11:42] <ali1234> god knows how that ever got past QA
[11:42] <BigRedS> *google
[11:43] <BigRedS> I think xfce might be the easier solution...
[11:43] <ali1234> "the desktop won't be neglected" they said...
[11:43] <davmor2> ali1234: QA only test the applications that supported by Ubuntu main possibly ie the one on the iso
[11:44] <popey> thats not entirely true
[11:44] <BigRedS> ali1234: the desktop isn't cloudy enough
[11:44] <popey> community qa people test all kinds of things
[11:46] <ali1234> yeah, unfortunately this bug was in a library
[11:46] <BigRedS> Hm. Online accounts appears to want access to all of my Google account. Is there some config somewhere to restrict it?
[11:46] <ali1234> so testing all the apps would never find it
[11:46] <ali1234> and especially automated testing
[11:47] <penguin42> ali1234: Testsuite against the library?
[11:47] <ali1234> also unfortunately, since it was in a library it broke a whole range of apps that use it
[11:47] <ali1234> yeah it has a testsuite - which doesn't work properly
[11:47] <ali1234> and doesn't actually test the thing that broke
[11:48] <penguin42> ah well that never helps :-)
[11:48] <mungbean> is it safe to send your bank account and sort code around clear text to friends and family?
[11:49] <davmor2> mungbean: no
[11:49] <BigRedS> i think it's possible to set up direct debits with those
[11:49] <BigRedS> with just those
[11:49] <penguin42> yeh it is - Jeremy Clarkson proved that the hard way
[11:49] <ali1234> not *just* those. you also need some fake ID and a forged signature
[11:50] <ali1234> but yeah, it's not safe
[11:50] <penguin42> mungbean: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7174760.stm
[11:50] <mungbean> a cheque has those details on
[11:50] <mungbean> and we give them out
[11:50] <penguin42> mungbean: Yes it's a hopeless system
[11:50] <ali1234> you're unlikely to have any problems
[11:50] <ali1234> they only did clarkson to make a point
[11:51] <mungbean> "The bank cannot find out who did this because of the Data Protection Act and they cannot stop it from happening again.??
[11:51] <mungbean> although somebody may have stoeln my birth cert from my mums house last year
[11:51] <AlanBell> it is a system that mostly works because it always has
[11:51] <mungbean> i did some epic shredding over the weekend
[11:52] <penguin42> mungbean: Yeh the system is just hopelessly broken, if you get some money coming into your account it's really difficult to track
[11:52] <mungbean> electronically?
[11:52] <penguin42> mungbean: Yeh, I had a problem where I couldn't tell where something came from and the bank was just hopeless
[11:53] <ali1234> i wish i had that problem
[11:54] <penguin42> ali1234: Unfortunately it wasn't significantly large
[11:55] <penguin42> one of them was I'd started a monthly dd to another bank, and checked with the source to see it had gone in; it showed money going out and one coming straight back in, and the source bank said they couldn't check whether the money that came back in was actually from what went out (it was the same amount)
[11:56] <mungbean> soudns wrong
[11:56] <penguin42> they wouldn't believe it until I ended up running between the banks and found they'd typo'd the destination account number
[11:56] <BigRedS> Haha, now I can't see how to get Thunderbird icon thingies in XFCE
[11:57] <ali1234> BigRedS: what version, and what do you mean by "thingies"?
[11:57] <BigRedS> Up in the top bar there used to be an icon that changed in appearence when I had unread messages
[11:57] <ali1234> there's two different kinds of those
[11:58] <ali1234> if you want the same one you had in unity, you need to be running 13.10 and you need to do this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Saucy/Gtk3Indicators
[11:58] <ali1234> if you want the other type, idk...
[11:58] <BigRedS> No, I specifically don't want Unity's one because I want one for IM and one for email
[11:59] <BigRedS> that's why I'm in XFCE
[11:59] <ali1234> well, xfce now uses indicators
[12:00] <ali1234> you can have the messaging indicator and also the pidgin notifier at the same time
[12:00] <BigRedS> ah right, so it's going to do whatever unity does?
[12:00] <ali1234> sort of, but it can also do the old way too
[12:00] <BigRedS> and the messaging indicator will include the pidgin stuff?
[12:00] <ali1234> yes
[12:00] <BigRedS> right
[12:00] <ali1234> if you can find a thunderbird notifier, you can use that instead
[12:00] <BigRedS> I might just find a 9.10 CD
[12:01] <ali1234> perhaps thunderbird-gnome-support
[12:01] <ali1234> i dunno why you want two icons
[12:01] <BigRedS> because I don't feel teh need to immediately respond to unread mail but I do to unread jabbers
[12:02] <BigRedS> I'm beginning to think that I'm quite peculiar in this sense, but for the fact that all the admin people here also complain about it
[12:02] <ali1234> i barely use the icon tbh
[12:02] <ali1234> i look for blue tabs in my chat window, or the "new emails" banner on the contacts list
[12:02] <penguin42> BigRedS: Do you not have your jabbers set to pop up a window?
[12:03] <BigRedS> penguin42: no, and I shudder to think how awfully that would work when I were on a different workspace
[12:03] <ali1234> anyway, if pidgin is more important, then just add a notification area and get a icon just for pidgin
[12:03] <BigRedS> ali1234: is that doable in unity?
[12:03] <ali1234> maybe. i think you can whitelist pidgin
[12:03] <ali1234> i dunno, i don't use it
[12:03] <BigRedS> it's not more important, it's just that the distinction is more important to me than a several-hundred pixel wide blankness at the top of my monitor
[12:03] <BigRedS> ah, cool. I'll have a fiddle...
[12:04] <ali1234> all incoming messages open a new tab for me in pidgin
[12:04] <ali1234> so i only ever have one window
[12:04] <BigRedS> yeah, but that requires that you look at the pidgin window
[12:04] <BigRedS> sometimes I'm working in a different window
[12:04] <penguin42> ali1234: I have multiple pidgin windows - it's actually why I like pidgin, persuading stuff to go into the 'right' window is more tricky
[12:04] <BigRedS> and I use multiple workspaces which unity seems to have decided is an afterthought
[12:04] <ali1234> there's the notification icon for that though
[12:05] <penguin42> BigRedS: It's less of an afterthought than gnome
[12:05] <BigRedS> yeah, is that what I'm going to go away and see if I cna work out how to add? Or is that the envelope?
[12:05] <ali1234> no
[12:05] <BigRedS> penguin42: not really. Gnome can at least manage "always on visible workspace"
[12:05] <ali1234> it's the speech buble with green circle thing
[12:05] <BigRedS> (or could last time I tried it)
[12:05] <ali1234> turns yellow when you have messages and higlights
[12:05] <BigRedS> ah! That's what I'm after! So, yeah, I need to work out how to add that to unity
[12:05] <ali1234> also turns yellow when you get an email, but i think you can turn that off
[12:06] <BigRedS> yeah, if pidgin doesn't know about emails I guess it wont do that anyway
[12:06] <ali1234> http://askubuntu.com/questions/30742/how-do-i-access-and-enable-more-icons-to-be-in-the-system-tray
[12:07] <ali1234> btw, it's all different depending what version you are on...
[12:07] <BigRedS> I don't have a 'panel' under unity
[12:07] <mungbean> there's a battle of air con vs radiators in here
[12:08] <BigRedS> oh! haha! Well, I shouldn't have really assumed otherwise
[12:08] <ali1234> the key has been moved in recent versions
[12:08] <ali1234> see the comments
[12:08] <BigRedS> "Do note that the system tray is entirely removed in 13.04 and newer and that older applications that still have not been ported need to be updated"
[12:08] <BigRedS> wonderful
[12:08] <ali1234> http://askubuntu.com/questions/67312/how-do-i-enable-the-pidgin-system-tray-icon
[12:09] <ali1234> ah yeah
[12:09] <ali1234> so
[12:09] <ali1234> xfce it is then
[12:10] <BigRedS> yeah, I was just coming to that conclusion
[12:11] <BigRedS> or fix empathy and get used to also losing 32px of screen width
[12:11] <BigRedS> (or do that thing I found somewhere to get pidgin to have numbers there).
[12:11] <BigRedS> either way it's pretty clear that it's not going to be 'fixed' as far as we're concerned
[12:11] <ali1234> you could probably prevent thunderbird from using the message menu at all
[12:12] <BigRedS> perhaps, but I'd like to see both
[12:12] <BigRedS> and I'm really not sure why this appears so hard to do. It's what everyone did 15 years ago
[12:13] <ali1234> because everything old is automatically worse than hitler
[12:13] <BigRedS> well, yeah
[12:13] <BigRedS> but sometimes I'd like to enable worse-than-hitler
[12:14] <AlanBell> if only they would bring back an option for spacebar heating
[12:14] <penguin42> AlanBell: Is that for warmth or punishment/notification
[12:14] <AlanBell> http://xkcd.com/1172/
[12:15] <BigRedS> haha
[12:17] <penguin42> nice
[12:18] <mungbean> there's an xkcd for everything, else dilbert
[12:18] <penguin42> yeh it's useful to check dilbert so it can tell you what will happen in the next meeting
[12:19] <BigRedS> right. So I need to hack together an application indicator. Is this a GTK thing or some other Ubuntu-only thing?
[12:19] <ali1234> https://plus.google.com/117474986382867317779/posts/9B1izdYHNwR
[12:19] <BigRedS> I wonder if Debian's XFCE will be more compliant
[12:19] <ali1234> ubuntu's xfce is largerly identical to the debian one
[12:20] <ali1234> making appindicators is pretty easy btw, after you patch the bug that makes it almost impossible in saucy :)
[12:20] <BigRedS> gargh.
[12:20] <BigRedS> I might just stop using computers
[12:22] <shauno> until you discover someone's ported netbsd to the slide rule.  there is no escape!
[12:23] <ali1234> xfce is gonna be really good in 14.04
[12:24] <BigRedS> ali1234: is there a patch for this bug that makes it almost impossible? If I can package that *and* whatever hack I produce this might work
[12:24] <ali1234> yes
[12:24] <ali1234> there's even a package
[12:24] <BigRedS> oh goody. what's the bug?
[12:24] <BigRedS> even better!
[12:24] <ali1234> bug 1203888
[12:24] <ali1234> you have to build the package yourself though, because it won't build in a ppa, because the tests are broken
[12:25] <ali1234> bug 1247162
[12:25] <BigRedS> ta!
[12:26] <ali1234> hopefully that patch will get SRU'd at some point
[12:27] <ali1234> you'll also find a nice minimal example of how to make an appindicator on that first bug
[12:27] <ali1234> as well as how to build the package
[12:28] <BigRedS> oh cool. I need to look busy for a bit but I'll have a read through that in a bit. Thanks!
[12:29] <ali1234> if you're doing this on xfce you will probably need to install the gtk3 indicators patches
[12:29] <ali1234> maybe not though, appindicator should work on both
[12:29] <BigRedS> nah, unity would be preferable since that's what everyone's already using
[12:29] <BigRedS> and, more importantly, what I'm already used toi
[12:29] <ali1234> i'm not...
[12:29] <BigRedS> no, everyone here
[12:29] <davmor2> BigRedS: by the way there is libnotify-pidgin not sure it that handles the counter on the icon if you prefer pidgin
[12:30] <penguin42> has German really got 4 different words for Walnut?
[12:30] <BigRedS> I only prefer pidgin because it works :)
[12:31] <davmor2> BigRedS: so if you install that have a play and see if you get notifications on the icon on the left :) might help you, might not :)
[12:31] <BigRedS> actually, yeah, everyone here can use empathy and have their launcher not autohide and that should solve the problem for them
[12:31] <penguin42> BigRedS: I just use pidgin in KDE, problem solved
[12:31] <BigRedS> davmor2: apparently I already have pidgin-libnotify installed
[12:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> Bloody hell: http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex60
[12:31] <ali1234> everyone install pidgin-festival, turn up the volume, and /join #ubuntu
[12:31] <TheOpenSourcerer>  i7-920 48GB Ram 2TB Storage = €59/m
[12:31] <BigRedS> penguin42: except the KDE bit :)
[12:32] <davmor2> BigRedS: Meh
[12:32] <ali1234> pidgin-libnotify just does the bubbles i think
[12:32] <penguin42> TheOpenSourcerer: Heck that's impressive with that much ram/storage
[12:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> They just cut the price from €69 and waived the set up fee.
[12:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> We have 5 servers with them now.
[12:33] <penguin42> TheOpenSourcerer: the 920 is pretty old, so I can imagine the system is quite cheap now, but the 48GB RAM and storage is a chunk
[12:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yeah sure.
[12:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> A newer model: http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/px70
[12:34] <penguin42> TheOpenSourcerer: My i7 is ~3-4 years old, it's the 860 rather than the 920 but they were similar ages
[12:35] <penguin42> TheOpenSourcerer: Do you think the i7-920 boxes have already been in use for a few years, and they've just thrown more ram/disk in them to resell them for another couple of years?
[12:35] <TheOpenSourcerer> we got one of these fairly recently: http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex40
[12:35] <TheOpenSourcerer> penguin42: Maybe. Who cares?
[12:35] <MartijnVdS> as long as they zeroed out the disks
[12:35] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[12:35] <penguin42> oh very nice
[12:36] <popey> hmm, my vps is ~200GBP/yr
[12:36] <popey> inc vat
[12:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> I still fail to work out how they make money - they are *so* much cheaper then anyone else.
[12:36] <penguin42> TheOpenSourcerer: Do you pay bandwidth as well?
[12:36] <MartijnVdS> I pay £10 +VAT/month for mine
[12:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[12:37] <TheOpenSourcerer> penguin42: They have 20TB/month
[12:37] <BigRedS> I always assumed they invested a fair whack in automation at the beginning and are slowly recouping that
[12:37] <TheOpenSourcerer> inc
[12:37] <penguin42> nice
[12:37] <TheOpenSourcerer> for each server
[12:37] <penguin42> TheOpenSourcerer: I just assume they make the money off the people paying to monitor them....
[12:38] <AlanBell> it makes the amazon/cloud/juju stuff comedy pricing really
[12:38] <TheOpenSourcerer> If you go over you get throttled but we never have come close and one server has ~ 15 VMs on it and several are CPanel server running > 40 websites and email etc.
[12:38] <ali1234> i was seeding the ubuntu isos on release day
[12:38] <ali1234> got through about 40GB in two days
[12:39] <shauno> I don't think amazon's pricing was ever that great, unless you actualy need the 'elastic' bit
[12:39] <ali1234> 20TB is just a silly amount of bandwidth
[12:39] <penguin42> the minimal costs on amazon are very low
[12:40] <AlanBell> no, but it gets sillier with juju as it needs vast numbers of VMs to do anything
[12:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> That's fine. 40G a day is what? 1.2TB per month :-)
[12:41] <ali1234> i wanted to put openstack on ours, but it turns out you need a minimum of three dedicated servers to run it
[12:41] <MartijnVdS> you do?
[12:42] <ali1234> yes. you have to have one server dedicated to making sure all the other servers are running
[12:42] <MartijnVdS> something to run VMs on, something to server disks off of, and ..?
[12:42] <AlanBell> it was 6 machines minimum when I looked, but I understand they cut it back somewhat
[12:42] <BigRedS> can it be convinced to run off a load of VMs?
[12:42] <penguin42> hetzner's small VM costs are about half the price of bytemark
[12:43] <ali1234> no. it's a system for running VMs... doesn't take nicely to being nested like that
[12:43] <ali1234> does anyone know how you make ipv6 work on hetzner?
[12:44] <penguin42> ali1234: Some VM stuff can nest, I have had kvm nest on 12.04, not managed it on anything newer - the nested ones are less efficient but nowhere near as bad as just emulating
[12:45] <BigRedS> yeah, vm-in-a-vm is never ideal, but it's been possible a few times
[12:45] <penguin42> I know there are people looking to make it work again
[12:46] <AlanBell> ali1234: as far as I know you just order an ipv6 /64 subnet through robot.your-server.de then start using it
[12:46] <ali1234> well supposedly we have one
[12:46] <ali1234> but nothing ever seems to use it
[12:46] <shauno> I Think kvm does nested-VT now?  I know vmware does, but I don't believe it's a default config in either
[12:46] <MartijnVdS> shauno: it does
[12:47] <MartijnVdS> but you have to explicitly enable it on the kvm command line
[12:48] <penguin42> shauno: It's done for a while, I've not had it work except on 12.04 - on saucy it hangs
[12:48] <AlanBell> https://github.com/mseknibilel/OpenStack-Grizzly-Install-Guide/blob/master/OpenStack_Grizzly_Install_Guide.rst seems you can now do openstack on one computer
[12:51] <ali1234> cool
[13:01] <mungbean> so how does the nonlinear development aspect fo git work?
[13:01] <penguin42> in what way?
[13:02] <SuperMatt> in a way that messes with your head
[13:02] <mungbean> does one person at the top manage all the commit request to make sure they don't break stuff?
[13:02] <SuperMatt> I'm never high enough for git
[13:02] <penguin42> mungbean: Different projects sort it out differently; one person/group of people doing pulls is the safest way
[13:02] <mungbean> if you branch off v1.0 and add stuff then you can only merge back into that version,right?
[13:03] <penguin42> mungbean: But you can rebase to a newer version
[13:03] <mungbean> https://www.atlassian.com/git/workflows#!workflow-gitflow
[13:03] <mungbean> looks scary
[13:04] <penguin42> mungbean: you can use it kind of like cvs/svn but you just gain more by doing fancier stuff (not that I've done that yet)
[13:05] <penguin42> mungbean: the trick is really that you can have your own branches/tags/checkins all locally without telling the server - and then you just push what you're interested in
[13:05] <ga73ric> ignaz
[13:05] <popey> Hello.
[13:05] <ga73ric> hello
[13:06] <penguin42> mungbean: so people tend to create branches/tags really often where on CVS they were expensive ops, and now you can have your own local branches/tags as well
[13:07] <mungbean> do they tend to merge them upstream?
[13:07] <penguin42> merge what?
[13:07] <mungbean> their features and chnages
[13:07] <mungbean> on their own branch
[13:07] <mungbean> ^on^from
[13:08] <penguin42> mungbean: Yeh on the big projects you need to keep the people who can commit a bit limited to stop chaos
[13:08] <penguin42> mungbean: but that's just the same as cvs/svn
[13:08] <mungbean> it confuses me
[13:08] <mungbean> there's a list of 50 commits waiting
[13:09] <penguin42> mungbean: Have you used any version control system?
[13:09] <mungbean> not distributed
[13:09] <penguin42> mungbean: OK, so what have you used?
[13:09] <mungbean> user A has a commit at 5 in the queue which the maintainer is commitnig. but user B's commit is based on code that A has removed. so how does that work
[13:10] <penguin42> mungbean: well you'll end up with a merge conflict that's going to need resolving somewhere
[13:10]  * TheOpenSourcerer is using git. But just as a faster and less crappy svn.
[13:10] <bigcalm> Which plugin do people here use to sync contacts between gmail and thunderbird?
[13:10] <popey> google.com
[13:10] <popey> ☻
[13:10]  * bigcalm kippers popey
[13:10] <popey> \o/ fish!
[13:11] <penguin42> popey: Are there any services to go behind the ubuntu phone to do services for it?
[13:11] <penguin42> mungbean: It's no real difference from svn/cvs in the sense if you get a conflict you still get a conflict
[13:11] <bigcalm> People that use Thunderbird & gmail/google apps: how do you sync contacts between client and server?
[13:11] <popey> penguin42: in english?
[13:11] <penguin42> popey: Where will the ubuntu phone get calendar/mail/mapping etc from?
[13:12] <popey> there's an app to sync contacts from google
[13:12] <popey> it could be extended to sync from other places no doubt
[13:13] <davmor2> bigcalm: open Software-center, search for thunderbird, open it and there is a gmail option for email.  For calendar I just grab the ics feed for the calendar and add it to a new online calendar
[13:13] <popey> http://popey.com/~alan/phablet/device-2013-10-24-132727.png
[13:13] <bigcalm> davmor2: already syncing email and calendar. You haven't read my question correctly :)
[13:14] <davmor2> bigcalm: ah sorry
[13:14] <bigcalm> davmor2: unless I don't understand your answer :)
[13:14] <penguin42> mungbean: What have you used before?
[13:15] <diplo> bigcalm: Congratulations! and I always had issues with gmail contacts and gave up in the end, went back to web :/
[13:15] <davmor2> bigcalm: I just use the contacts in thunderbird and don't sync :D
[13:15] <bigcalm> diplo: thanks :)
[13:15] <bigcalm> davmor2: consider that I use the same email accounts in multiple clients. Having the contacts available across them all would be helpful
[13:16] <davmor2> bigcalm: one of the things I hate about thunderbird amongst the many :D
[13:16] <mungbean> cvs and svn but not as part of a distributed project
[13:16] <davmor2> bigcalm: you can have a look at plugins and see if there is one for google contact sync :)
[13:17] <mungbean> i wondered how the maintainer handled all the commits and branches
[13:17] <penguin42> mungbean: OK, but have you worked with cvs/svn with multiple people ?
[13:17] <mungbean> yes but usually from a sysadmin POV (e.g. firewall scripts etc)
[13:17] <penguin42> mungbean: OK, so what happens if one of your other admins makes a change?
[13:17] <mungbean> writing code has been a matter of a clone and compile, or my own stuff, nobody else involved
[13:18] <mungbean> they would only checkout at last minute
[13:18] <mungbean> and make changes
[13:18] <bigcalm> Once I sort out google contact sync, I then need to figure out ms exchange contact sync
[13:18] <mungbean> there wouldn't be a queue of commits
[13:18] <penguin42> mungbean: OK, so it happens in CVS as well, if someone else had done a change when you did a cvs commit you'd get a conflict, you'd have to do a cvs update and sort stuff out
[13:19] <mungbean> as part of the kernel it must be a nightmare
[13:19] <penguin42> mungbean: Where someone is merging stuff they expect you to have given them something off a pretty recent version so the likelihood of conflicts is small, but they'll accept they'll have to do some minor conflict wrangling but probably won't do anything major
[13:20] <penguin42> mungbean: The kernel stuff is also multilevel - i.e. most of the stuff that goes into Linus comes from subsection maintainers who merge other peoples stuff together
[13:20] <penguin42> mungbean: So the stuff Linus gets from each one will at least hopefully be mostly contained in one area of the code base
[13:23] <penguin42> mungbean: There's also a thing called linux-next which is where a lot of the newer stuff goes and gets merged together and tested before getting thrown upto Linus
[13:24] <mungbean> no wonder gerg KH always ranting about people on g+
[13:33] <penguin42> mungbean: I think greg is one of the more careful in what he says :-)
[13:35] <penguin42> mungbean: But in a small project you might let any of a trusted few push to the head, and whenever they do they just have to sort out their own conflicts
[13:37] <mungbean> hmm i was just on a website that said if i knew my security question i could reset my password there and then (not send to my email address)
[13:37] <mungbean> that means my password is only as strong as my security word
[13:38] <mungbean> if it sent a link to your address it would at least require said person to have your inbox password too
[13:45] <popey> http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/4/5064278/blackberry-ceo-steps-down-as-company-secures-1-billion-funding-from
[13:45] <popey> oof
[13:51] <Azelphur> In my usual bitcoin dealings, I stumbled upon an absolutely hilarious story, one of my friends has started an illegal smuggling venture to get contraband into denmark...the contraband is...Marmite, It's illegal in denmark.
[13:51] <Azelphur> I sit here picturing dodgy guys in dark alleys "you got the stuff?"
[13:52] <BigRedS> oh yeah, that's a relatively recent change isn't it? I remember hearing about that
[13:52] <Azelphur> BigRedS: yea, haha
[13:52] <popey> hah
[13:52] <Azelphur> some people just gotta have their marmite clearly :)
[13:52] <BigRedS> something weird like it claiming to be healthy and therefore needing approval
[13:52] <popey> \o/ marmite hilight
[13:53] <mungbean> smuggle it as earwax
[13:53] <mungbean> would pass the sniff and taste test
[13:53] <Azelphur> rofl
[13:53] <mungbean> disclaimer: i quite like marmite
[13:53] <Azelphur> doesn't human waste set off all sorts of customs checks?
[13:54] <mungbean> i wouldn't know
[13:54] <popey> *waste*!?! How dare you!
[13:54] <Azelphur> xD
[13:54] <popey> My earwax is of the highest quality!
[13:54] <Azelphur> hahaha
[13:54] <Myrtti> ihihihiiiiii wheee
[13:55] <Azelphur> for his next venture, I suggested smuggling Kinder Surprise eggs into USA :)
[13:55] <mungbean> in your butt
[13:55] <mungbean> what have we here? smuggling drugs up your butt in kinder eggs? no, just childrens toys :-|
[13:56] <Azelphur> xD
[13:56] <mungbean> how many children have a mouth big enough to eat a chocolate kinder egg in one go, yellow egg and all?
[13:56] <mungbean> does that mean easter eggs with things inside aren't allowed too?
[13:57] <BigRedS> isn't haggis a commonly-smuggled foodstuff into the us?
[13:57] <BigRedS> 'cause lungs aren't deemed fit for human consumption. It's either into the US or into Canada, from the other
[13:57] <mungbean> maybe there's a niche in the market "i can't believe it's not haggis"
[13:57] <Azelphur> mungbean: yea, think so
[13:58] <Azelphur> this is what BTC will become. Who needs drugs when you can smuggle marmite and haggis?
[13:58] <Azelphur> XD
[14:00] <popey> mmmmm haggis
[14:01] <mungbean> never eaten haggis
[14:01] <mungbean> probabyl enver will
[14:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> Beans on toast with chillies :-D
[14:07] <popey> My wife refuses to eat black pudding. Silly rabbit.
[14:13] <davmor2> popey: A woman with obvious good taste, what the hell is she doing with you ;)
[14:15] <davmor2> popey: Black/Blood pudding is like marmite you either love it or hate it, I'm in the hate camp on both, and you are in the love camp for both I believe.  So I wonder if there is a correlation to draw there :D
[14:18] <Myrtti> I haven't liked any of the _British_ black pudding I've tried
[14:20] <popey> davmor2: how about haggis?
[14:21] <davmor2> popey: haggis has never really taken my fancy but I have a least tried Black puddin and marmite so I know I don't like them
[14:23] <popey> heh
[14:23] <popey> I will basically eat anything
[14:23] <popey> black pudding & haggis are a treat for me
[14:23] <mungbean> elvis probably said the same
[14:24] <mungbean> i have certain dietary restrictions :(
[14:32] <penguin42> mungbean: Same here, I stick to chocolate
[14:37] <mungbean> i think i have problems digesting fatty food
[14:38] <mungbean> currently writing doc for how to install vmware on a ibm server. if it were dell, it would be upload iso, boot and away you go
[14:38] <mungbean> its taken me most of the day to write the doc :S
[14:38] <diplo> I'm the only one who writes documentation in my office
[14:39] <diplo> And in the last 2 months we have either had people out on long term sick or left
[14:39] <diplo> And now it's really biting them in the a**e
[14:40] <mungbean> people who don't document are selfish
[14:41] <mungbean> and stupid if they ever wanna reproduce this again
[14:41] <mungbean> basically did one server, discovered as i went along, hence will document now, test on server 2 and tweak docs. server 3 will be slick, then we re-do server 1
[14:41] <diplo> Thing is for our company, they can't replace the staff.. nobody else writes in this language apart us as we now own it :/
[14:42] <mungbean> english?
[14:42] <diplo> Whereas I don't want to be stuck doing the same jobs over and over so document and point anyone who asks me at the docs so they can do it and learn
[14:42] <diplo> Simple - lots of goto's etc
[15:12] <daftykins> i liked hearing about a friends office, where they had a managed system before. then they got in-house IT, who had to search the network to even find out what they had to start
[15:14] <daftykins> :D
[15:14] <daftykins> still discovering systems months laster
[15:14] <daftykins> *later
[15:14] <MartijnVdS> that's always fun :)
[15:15] <diddledan> daftykins: that sounds like a fun game of hide-n-seek
[15:15] <diddledan> or lucky dip
[15:15] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: nmap :P
[15:16] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: at work we've lost a managed switch - it doesn't respond to any sort of network requests on it's supposed ip address - I've tried nmapping the subnet and still can't find it
[15:17] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: its IP/management interface is probably on a vlan then, maybe only available on a special port, or the trunk port
[15:18] <MartijnVdS> so management traffic isn't on the same network as the "user" data
[15:21] <daftykins> ^ :D
[15:22] <daftykins> manual perhaps? :)
[15:22] <daftykins> i've got a 24-port managed Netgear here, its' web-admin seems utterly shocking
[15:22] <daftykins> so unresponsive
[15:22] <diddledan> yeah ours is a  netgear tooo
[15:29] <penguin42> diddledan: When you say you 'lost' the switch, do you mean erm physically as well ?
[15:30] <SuperMatt> hey guys
[15:32] <MartijnVdS> \o SuperMatt
[15:32] <SuperMatt> I'm somewhat bored
[15:32] <SuperMatt> so I thought I'd camp out in here
[15:35] <diddledan> penguin42: it's in a remote colocation centre so we don't have direct access without booking and then driving several tens of miles
[15:37] <penguin42> ah yes
[15:38] <daftykins> heh
[15:50] <davmor2> SuperMatt: That's daft tents and the internet are not a good combination.  The tubes move and the cats don't like it.
[15:50] <SuperMatt> that is correct
[15:51] <SuperMatt> though if I got out my railgun, camping would be a lot of fun
[15:51] <diddledan> I tried camping once but my mince had gone off
[15:52] <SuperMatt> I...
[15:52] <SuperMatt> what?
[15:52] <mungbean> :-|
[15:53] <SuperMatt> I quite enjoy camping, truth be told
[15:54] <SuperMatt> maybe the next launch party should be in a field somewhere
[15:55] <davmor2> SuperMatt: http://www.camp-let.com/trailertents/premium/  we have one of these we really like camping in that :)
[15:55] <SuperMatt> ooh, swish
[15:56] <SuperMatt> I have a four man tent, but I've only ever had 2 people in it
[15:56] <SuperMatt> because why be uncomfortable?
[15:56] <SuperMatt> I like the outdoors, but I also like being snuggly
[15:56] <davmor2> SuperMatt: no it's danish not swish ;)
[15:56] <SuperMatt> *groan*
[15:58] <davmor2> SuperMatt: that is very snuggly with it's huge bed, bench settee, kitchen, toilet in the side annex, etc etc etc :)
[15:59] <mungbean> large online shop called me to verify why my billing address was different from my shipping address. they asked for the persons name and checked a database
[15:59] <mungbean> i guess because we share the same surname it was ok
[16:00] <mungbean> not sure what they do otherwise?
[16:00] <SuperMatt> davmor2: that's going a little too far, m'thinks ;)
[16:01] <diddledan> mungbean: I don't get it
[16:01] <diddledan> mungbean: you ordered something or someone is pretending to be you or?
[16:01] <davmor2> SuperMatt: it's just what's built into the trailer to be honest.  It's amazingly well thought out :)   Only takes about 10-15 minutes to get out of the rain when setting up too :)
[16:02] <SuperMatt> cool
[16:02] <SuperMatt> last time I went camping, we just avoided hail by seconds
[16:02] <SuperMatt> got the tent up and the heavens did their stuff
[16:03] <davmor2> SuperMatt: the only thing we care about is it being dry on the day we take it down, saves having to open it back up then :)
[16:03] <diddledan> davmor2: you could take it down the night before if it's going to rain on the day you leave :-p
[16:03] <mungbean> diddledan: i oredered something to be sent to my mums address
[16:03] <diddledan> mungbean: aah
[16:03] <mungbean> first time ordered
[16:04] <mungbean> they blocked the order and emailed me
[16:04] <mungbean> so i called and they checked my name against my address and my DOB
[16:04] <mungbean> and they checked the person lived at the other address
[16:04] <mungbean> then they asked the relation to me
[16:04] <mungbean> i.e. why are you sending to $OTHERADDRESS
[16:05] <diddledan> mungbean: did you tick the "this is a present" box? that might give them a clue why you're sending elsewhere :-p
[16:05] <davmor2> diddledan: no you just have to get it back up and dry it out within about 3 weeks before it start to have mildew attack it.  We've been really lucky though only had to do that once
[16:05] <diddledan> or was there no such box?
[16:05] <mungbean> no box, and only amazon don't care where it goes
[16:06] <diddledan> amazon ftw
[16:07] <davmor2> diddledan: we have left a site a day early but that was because there were thunderstorms forecast for that evening/night/following morning and that wouldn't of been fun to take it down in :)
[16:07] <diddledan> indeed
[16:08] <daftykins> i'm being a devil and upgrading a desktop in this property from lucid to 12.04.3 D:
[16:08] <daftykins> i'm curious how it'll go
[16:08] <mungbean> amazon was £6 more expensive and i don't get cashback via quidco :P
[16:08] <daftykins> Banshee will already have to be ditched as the music player
[16:08] <mungbean> banshee lol
[16:08] <daftykins> :D
[16:09] <daftykins> yeah it's a PC in a 'breakfast room' that occasionally plays music
[16:09] <daftykins> i've mostly seen it switched off however
[16:11] <BigRedS> haha, thunderbird's decided to download all mail in every folder on the mailserver at work
[16:12] <BigRedS> which is fine, I didn't want to send any mail for the next week anyway
[16:12] <mungbean> lo @ popey raccoon vid. dunno why its funny but it is
[16:12] <SuperMatt> have fun with your super high load for the next half hour o/
[16:12] <mungbean> my baby daughter doesn't let you scrape her chin with the spoon when feeding because when spoon goes near, mouth goes open = more mess
[16:12] <BigRedS> yeah, I just tried right-clicking to get to the subscribe menu and that took forty seconds
[16:13] <SuperMatt> haha
[16:13] <SuperMatt> poor thing
[16:14] <popey> ☻
[16:14] <mungbean> http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/4/5063760/we-try-the-steam-machine-valves-video-game-console-of-the-future
[16:20] <SuperMatt> I'm looking forward to getting my hands on one of those controllers
[16:21] <mungbean> looks like its made for men
[16:21] <SuperMatt> if valve had any sense, they're start releasing the controller soon, before the xbox one controller gets support on windows 8
[16:25] <SuperMatt> especially as I like using my xbox controller on games. If it is truely revolutionary, it'd be nice to have the controller out soon
[16:25] <SuperMatt> after all, it's not like it's tied to the release of a steambox itself
[16:26] <mungbean> ulimit -c 0 means no core files, right?
[16:27] <mgdm> I believe so
[16:27] <mungbean> ah, realised the issie
[16:27] <mungbean> was OK until i performed a qlogin
[16:28] <SuperMatt> setting the flash plugin to "always ask" in firefox was the best thing I ever did
[16:29] <ali1234> BigRedS: libdbusmenu fix was merged :)
[16:35] <BigRedS> ali1234: whoop! :)
[16:37] <mungbean> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/11/80-rikomagic-arm-based-ubuntu-mini-pc-starts-shipping
[16:37] <mungbean> for those who don't read omg
[16:37] <mungbean> i don't have a HDMI telly :'(
[16:38] <BigRedS> ARM with no hardware video acceleration?
[16:39] <BigRedS> Given my experience with a Pi I'm not sure I'd find a use for that
[16:40] <davmor2> mungbean: hdmi to dvi lead
[16:46] <mungbean> my telly is OLD
[16:46] <penguin42> mungbean: Same here - it's got a CRT
[16:47] <mungbean> yep
[16:47] <mungbean> CRT yeah you know me
[16:47] <penguin42> mungbean: I'm getting tempted though, but I need to buy from somewhere that will take the old one away
[16:48] <mungbean> put it outside with a note "DO NOT STEAL"
[16:48] <mungbean> i give it 30 mins
[16:48] <penguin42> mungbean: Well, I mean someone who can get it down the stairs would be a good start
[16:48] <mungbean> gravity
[16:48] <mungbean> \o/
[16:49] <penguin42> well true, it'll be easier than gettting it up the stairs
[16:49] <mungbean> \o/-------[]
[16:49] <penguin42> mungbean: It's a 32" - not fun
[16:50] <mungbean> i may have the same telly
[16:50] <penguin42> Tosh
[16:50] <mungbean> ah
[16:50] <mungbean> i have the panasonic quintrix
[16:50] <mungbean> best telly ever
[16:50] <ali1234> how can throwing a TV out a window ever be "not fun"?
[16:50] <mungbean> got it for a bottle of wine
[16:51] <mungbean> carried it out of a 2nd floor flat and nearly died
[16:51] <penguin42> ali1234: My windows don't open enough to dispatch the TV, and it wouldn't be good for the garden
[16:52] <mungbean> yabbadabbadooo
[16:52] <mungbean> home tiem
[16:52] <BigRedS> Good point
[17:08]  * xnox "I'm friends with the monster that's under my bed" ♬ ♪ ♯ ♩
[17:11] <diddledan> I _am_ the monster that's under my bed
[17:12] <diddledan> <-- honeymonster
[17:12] <SuperMatt> I haven't had sugarpuffs in ages
[17:12] <SuperMatt> are they even still legal?
[17:12] <SuperMatt> what with the amount of sufar
[17:12] <SuperMatt> *sugar
[17:27] <Azelphur> anyone know how to create an encrypted portable USB install of Ubuntu?
[17:28] <penguin42> Azelphur: The tricky bit if doing it to a usb thumb is most of them really suck on writes, but other than that luks encrypt shouldn't be too bad
[17:28] <Azelphur> is there a tool for it? or is it a royal PITA
[17:29] <penguin42> luks shouldn't be that hard - but is there a tool for doing a non-encrypted thumb?
[17:29] <Azelphur> there is
[17:29] <xnox> Azelphur: take usb-thumb drive, plug it in, open dash type "Disks" select format, choose encrypted, enter password & format, done.
[17:29]  * penguin42 would just format the part as luks and hope for the best
[17:30] <xnox> Azelphur: make sure you click unmount before unplugging.
[17:30] <penguin42> xnox: I believe he wants to put the rest of Ubuntu in there as well
[17:30] <xnox> Azelphur: when you plug it back into Ubuntu, a pop-up will appear to unlock it.
[17:30] <Azelphur> penguin42: will that actually remain bootable, though?
[17:30] <xnox> penguin42: if you want to have encrypted LUKS installation, it's also a single check-box in the installer.
[17:30] <penguin42> Azelphur: Normally you run with a /boot that's done normally then a luks'd root
[17:31] <xnox> penguin42: yes, that's setup automatically by the Ubuntu Desktop installer, if you tick to encrypt your new full disk installation (Erase and Install)
[17:31] <xnox> (dual boot not supported, or more complex schemes)
[17:32] <Azelphur> xnox: uhh, is this gnome-disk-utility you're talking about?
[17:32] <Azelphur> I'm on xubuntu, so I don't have Unity :)
[17:32] <penguin42> xnox: Yep done it - the interesting bit is combining it with the thumbdrive setups - which often have the data as a separate part
[17:32] <Azelphur> I don't have any options to encrypt in the format menu
[17:33] <penguin42> Azelphur: SO you can just do a normal install to the thumb drive and remember to select encrypted drive (not home directory encrypt!) and it should work
[17:33] <xnox> Azelphur: yes, it's "gnome-disks" or some such. Should work on any systems. Install "cryptsetup" package ? it might be optional.
[17:34] <Azelphur> xnox: nope, still no format options
[17:34] <Azelphur> penguin42: problem with that is it creates grub for all the hdds in the system
[17:34] <xnox> Azelphur: what release are you on?
[17:34] <penguin42> Azelphur: If you do an install you don't need to do this stuff
[17:34] <Azelphur> xnox: 13.10
[17:36] <Azelphur> I'll have another look at doing a normal install
[17:36] <Azelphur> I have two sticks, so one of them has the installer, one is the install medium
[17:37] <penguin42> Azelphur: Yeh just do a normal install and tick the full disk encryption
[17:37] <xnox> Azelphur: disks -> click on usb stick -> click on a partition -> SHIFT+CTRL+F (or small cogs drop down below partition)
[17:37] <xnox> Type: Encrypted
[17:38] <xnox> or just "+" if it's a new partition.
[17:38] <Azelphur> xnox: aha, yes I see that :)
[17:40] <Azelphur> xnox: seems like unetbootin won't create in that though, so I'll go back to trying to do a normal install
[17:42] <Azelphur> penguin42: the problem with the installer is that it seems very intent on installing to /dev/sda
[17:42] <Azelphur> and I don't particularly wanna wipe my laptop xD
[17:43] <penguin42> huh shouldn't - should let you install where you want
[17:43] <Azelphur> well, at partitioning the options I get are "Erase Ubuntu 13.10 and reinstall", Install Xubuntu 13.10 alongside 13.10, or something else
[17:45]  * penguin42 thought it used to let you choose another disk at that point
[17:45] <Azelphur> penguin42: nah, it's asking me for a security key and the next button is "Install now"
[17:46] <Azelphur> I'm gonna try this in a virtual machine just to see if install now really means install now :)
[17:48] <Azelphur> seems install now doesn't mean install now \o/
[17:49] <Azelphur> Some of the partitions you created are too small. Please make the following partitions at least this large: / 2.9GB
[17:49] <Azelphur> awwww.
[17:50] <Azelphur> guess I'll have to use my 16GB one
[17:52] <penguin42> Azelphur: Now the thing is I know there are some USB thumb setups that do it a bit differently; they have a base root partition and then a writeable overlay
[17:52] <Azelphur> yea
[17:53] <Azelphur> the main reason I want this is so that I can have something very secure to handle my bitcoins on
[17:53] <Azelphur> the amount I have stored on my everyday desktop is scary.
[17:55] <penguin42> Azelphur: Isn't it easier to turn them into cash and put them in a bank?
[17:57] <Azelphur> penguin42: Total times I've been robbed by banks: 4
[17:57] <Azelphur> a handy guide to why I don't put money in banks
[17:58] <penguin42> interesting
[17:58] <Azelphur> also the cyprus situation
[17:58] <penguin42> the what?
[17:58] <Azelphur> why anybody trusts banks I have no clue, but none the less, I won't
[17:59] <penguin42> Azelphur: I've not had problems with them actually losing money - I mean generally I find them completely incompetent, but not actually lost anything to them
[17:59] <Azelphur> penguin42: yea, I've lost 4 figures
[17:59] <Azelphur> at least.
[17:59] <penguin42> ouch
[18:00] <Azelphur> got an ombudsman case starting against Santander
[18:00] <Azelphur> but yea.
[18:00] <penguin42> ah, Santander
[18:01] <Azelphur> penguin42: but yea, with the combination of extremely low interest payouts, incompetence, maliciousness, and the possibility of seizure ala Cyprus, banks are about the least sane place to have your money atm, imo.
[18:02]  * penguin42 gulps
[18:02] <penguin42> Azelphur: OK, buy property then?
[18:02] <Azelphur> I wouldn't wanna advise on where you should put your money, as anything I say could well be totally wrong
[18:03] <Azelphur> but at least I can be reasonably sure that storing it in the bank has at best a mediocre interest payout, and at worse, you loosing some/all of it.
[18:03] <penguin42> well, in the UK as long as you keep the amount/bank below the cap you're very unlikely to lose
[18:04] <Azelphur> penguin42: you assume government solvency.
[18:04] <Azelphur> that's a bad assumption imo.
[18:05] <Azelphur> USA very nearly defaulted, everybodies credit rating is falling, which means interests on our exponential debt is growing, do the math :)
[18:07] <Azelphur> penguin42: hmm, I got to the "Who are you?" section, filled all the info in and clicked continue, now the installer is just hanging
[18:07] <Azelphur> :(
[18:08] <penguin42> Azelphur: are you sure it actually crashed or it is just writing to your uber slow usb drive?
[18:09] <Azelphur> penguin42: it's been stuck for about 20 minutes, the OS is still responsive, just the installer isn't doing anything
[18:11] <penguin42> Azelphur: Is it writing anything to the USB?
[18:11] <Azelphur> how do I tell?
[18:11] <penguin42> iostat ?
[18:13] <Azelphur> penguin42: can't install it because debconf is locked
[18:14] <penguin42> Azelphur: vmstat ?
[18:14] <Azelphur> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6360108/
[18:15] <penguin42> Azelphur: try vmstat 1 5    is the bo column always sitting at around a few hundred?
[18:16] <Azelphur> yea, bo is pretty much always at 433
[18:16] <Azelphur> or 432
[18:16] <penguin42> ok, so it's writing all the time and I'm guessing just stuck writing lots of stuff
[18:17] <penguin42> Azelphur: I suggest it's telling you to take it easy for a while
[18:18] <Azelphur> penguin42: it's weird because its not even showing the installer progress bar
[18:18] <Azelphur> it's just hanging
[18:19] <penguin42> Azelphur: I'd give it a while before giving up on it
[18:19] <ali1234> why do you even want an encrypted install on usb? it's crazy
[18:19] <ali1234> usb is lowwwww
[18:19] <Azelphur> ali1234: I want some place to store my BTC safely
[18:20] <ali1234> encrypted usb isn't the answer
[18:20] <penguin42> well, it's USB thumbs are slow
[18:21] <ali1234> nah, any USB2 is slow
[18:21] <penguin42> well, you can still get 40MB/s on a good day - that's slow but usable as opposed to hopeless
[18:22] <ali1234> Azelphur: did you know you can generate btc addresses using openssl... openssl is installed by default on ubuntu
[18:23] <Azelphur> ali1234: yea thing is I'm making the assumption of malicious software on my desktop
[18:23] <ali1234> how will an encrypted volume help?
[18:23] <Azelphur> ali1234: encrypted USB stick only used for bitcoin
[18:24] <Azelphur> boot from USB :)
[18:24] <ali1234> yea how will that help
[18:24] <Azelphur> ali1234: well it'll render any malicious software on my PC moot, since the drives are unmounted?
[18:25] <penguin42> Azelphur: A bootable standard Ubuntu live CD and a USB stick with just the crypted bitcoin data on would work
[18:26] <Azelphur> penguin42: yea, I guess I could use the standard wallet encryption in the client, and not secure the OS
[18:26] <Azelphur> although I'd prefer the drive encrypted, that protects against tampering
[18:26] <ali1234> use paper wallets
[18:27] <Azelphur> ali1234: I can't send from a paper wallet...
[18:27]  * Azelphur sighs
[18:27] <ali1234> yes you can
[18:27] <penguin42> Azelphur: I mean encrypted USB but with just your bitcoin data, but access it booting off a live-cd
[18:27] <ali1234> all you have to do is type in the key
[18:27] <Azelphur> penguin42: I see, same answer though
[18:27] <Azelphur> ali1234: on my machine, which we are assuming is compromised...
[18:28] <Azelphur> is it really that alien to want an encrypted portable install?
[18:28] <penguin42> Azelphur: It's protected against tampering still - especially if you use a stamped live-cd
[18:28] <ali1234> well don't get it compromised then. easy
[18:28] <Azelphur> -.-
[18:29] <Azelphur> I just want to create an encrypted portable install, not have the Spanish inquisition ;)
[18:31] <Azelphur> penguin42: I'm seeing lots of stack traces in dmesg, I guess this install is failing
[18:31] <penguin42> Azelphur: Depends on the stack trace - are they just task not responding after 120 seconds?
[18:31] <Azelphur> penguin42: spot on, that's the one :)
[18:31] <ali1234> buy an old netbook off ebay
[18:31] <ali1234> enrypt the internal drive
[18:32] <penguin42> Azelphur: Yeh that's SLOW things are going SLOW
[18:32] <Azelphur> ali1234: that's actually a good idea, one of the things I was worried about with a stick is that they aren't very robust, and are easier to loose.
[18:32] <penguin42> Azelphur: When you say portable - what do you want to boot it on?
[18:32] <Azelphur> penguin42: just the one laptop :)
[18:32] <penguin42> ok
[18:52] <czajkowski> popey: do you have chrome or chromium installed?
[18:53] <popey> yes
[19:08] <davmor2> popey: you fell into that trap, now czajkowski will ask you to try something :D
[19:11] <czajkowski> popey: davmor2 just curious I've chromium installed but trying to install chrome as I need to test an app
[19:12] <czajkowski> but it refuses to install it does download but then nothing really moves on the install bar
[19:12] <czajkowski> I download it from the google site/chrome
[19:12] <davmor2> czajkowski: did you get the right version?
[19:13] <davmor2> czajkowski: did it install and it just not show up on the launcher bar, ie is it in the dash?
[19:13] <davmor2> czajkowski: what happens if you do sudo dpkg -i chrome.deb or whatever it is called
[19:15] <czajkowski> google-chrome-stable_current_amd64.deb
[19:15] <czajkowski> got it off their own site which was the confusing thing
[19:15] <davmor2> czajkowski: and it is on a 64bit machine right?
[19:15] <czajkowski> yup
[19:16] <davmor2> and have you open dash and seen if it is installed?
[19:16] <czajkowski> it's downloaded
[19:16] <czajkowski> but doesnt seem to want to install
[19:17] <davmor2> czajkowski: right so do sudo dpkg -i google-chrome-stable_current_amd64.deb and see why
[19:36] <Azelphur> I have a feeling Ubuntu generally doesn't like installing to a USB stick.
[19:36] <popey> i have installed to usb before
[19:36] <Azelphur> I gave up on my laptop after an hour, tried doing it in a virtual machine with USB passthrough, this time I made it further through the install, but it looks like its stuck again
[19:36] <Azelphur> yea, I've done it before too
[19:39] <SuperMatt> it is a travesty how poorly modern operating systems handle blu ray
[19:40] <davmor2> Azelphur: what are you using to copy it to usb?
[19:40] <Azelphur> the ubuntu installer
[19:41] <davmor2> Azelphur: hum that works fine for me
[19:41] <Azelphur> bizarre :(
[19:41] <davmor2> Azelphur: what speed is the drive, usb1 tends to fail 2 is alright never tried 3
[19:42] <Azelphur> usb 2 I believe, a 16GB sandisk cruzer
[19:43] <davmor2> Azelphur: I'd try formatting the drive and reinstalling it, personally.
[19:43] <Azelphur> davmor2: did that
[19:45] <SuperMatt> man, it shouldn't be that the only way I can watch a BD is to plug in my ps3
[19:46] <davmor2> SuperMatt: I can tell you how but I'm not going to muhahaha
[19:47] <penguin42> Azelphur: Oh, a sandisk - oh, I've heard people are having very poor write bandwidths on modern sandisk thumbdrives
[19:47] <Azelphur> oh :(
[19:48] <penguin42> Azelphur: You could install to a virtual disk and then dd the raw disk out to the USB stick?
[19:48] <penguin42> but yeh installs onto USB are a pain
[19:48] <Azelphur> yea could do
[19:48] <Azelphur> I've actually had the install bar go all the way to the end, and then go around again. xD
[19:48] <SuperMatt> davmor2: does it involve libaacs.so.0 and KEYDB.conf?
[19:48] <Azelphur> but it seems to be progressing again now after being frozen for ~15 minutes
[19:49] <davmor2> SuperMatt: no just build makemkv  and preview make that full screen in 60 days install the newer version :)
[19:50] <SuperMatt> riiight
[19:50] <SuperMatt> I'll just go with my ps3 method
[19:50] <davmor2> SuperMatt: that's the easy way
[19:51] <SuperMatt> yup
[19:51] <SuperMatt> I like easy
[19:53] <davmor2> SuperMatt: I was kinda expecting Fluendo to make a Bluray player as the have legit keys for their dvd player so why not add blue ray but I don't think they are going to :(
[19:54] <SuperMatt> I just think it's a bit criminal that I have the disk, I have the reader, but I have to pay a third party to actually be able to decode the stuff
[19:54] <diddledan> I think rather than fluendo not making it the case is more like the aacs people won't license the code to fluendo
[19:55] <Azelphur> penguin42: do you have any recommendations for a more modern high speed drive?
[19:56] <davmor2> diddledan: why their dvd player is proprietary not free, and is one of the only legit players for dvd for linux so they could do the same with bluray I would imagine
[19:56] <diddledan> linux scares the media companies, though
[19:56] <diddledan> they're afraid of reverse engineering on linux more than they are on windows or stbs
[19:57] <diddledan> STBs**
[19:57] <diddledan> (that's just anecdotal, I have no evidence to back up the claim :-p)
[19:58] <popey> Azelphur: you're doing this via a VM?
[19:58] <davmor2> diddledan: Fluendo technically isn't Linux they are just a Media Company that mostly create gstreamer stuff.
[19:58] <Azelphur> popey: yea
[19:58] <davmor2> Azelphur: oh that could be why.    Why would you do that on a vm when you can just use the iso
[19:59] <diddledan> what I really hate about bluray is that you can pay to get discs blocked from your player - when you buy a new disc it can install a blacklist onto your player that blocks previously bought discs. so you're paying for the privilege of them removing your viewing rights that you paid for
[19:59] <Azelphur> davmor2: because I'd get dodgy grub entries to drives that don't exist
[19:59] <Azelphur> plus a vm should be no slower, I'm just usb passthroughing
[20:00] <penguin42> Azelphur: No sorry
[20:00] <davmor2> Azelphur: yeah only it depends how good the passthrough is it might be fine for data
[20:06] <GentileBen> http://toys.usvsth3m.com/richard-dawkins-honey-defender/
[20:11] <shauno> as silly as the whole thing sounds, I felt the same way when they took my cheese off me.  have you ever tried to argue with the govt over whether cheese is a liquid or not?
[20:13] <penguin42> shauno: It didn't have a wick coming out of it did it?
[20:23] <penguin42> shauno: I thought cheese was primarily about milk export, and I'd kind of assumed honey was the same
[20:28] <diddledan> hurray - just finished whittling down 30ish bug and other issues down to just 3
[20:28] <diddledan> not ubuntu-related but still, share my joy
[20:28] <MartijnVdS> \o/
[20:28] <penguin42> am I the only one who really really dislikes 'unsigned' as a type as opposed to 'unsigned int' ?
[20:29] <diddledan> I think that's enough work for today
[20:29] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: it's not as expressive
[20:29] <diddledan> it's an unsigned bit, obviously
[20:30] <diddledan> because we all know bits can be signed
[20:30] <mgdm> 'unsigned char' used to make me go o_O
[20:30] <MartijnVdS> signed char is worse
[20:30] <diddledan> lol
[20:30] <mgdm> now I just think "lol, C" and get on with life
[20:30] <mgdm> MartijnVdS: well, yes, it was the implication that char was signed by default
[20:30] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: that's not defined, I think, in older versions of C (maybe even today)
[20:46] <Azelphur> can you not dual boot and encrypt one of the partitions?
[21:02] <penguin42> does someone have access to a non-linux posix system where they can do a   man select  ?
[21:02] <mgdm> penguin42: OSX do?
[21:02] <penguin42> yes
[21:02] <mgdm> sure
[21:03] <penguin42> mgdm: I'd like to know the signedness of the 1st parameter
[21:03] <mgdm> int select(int nfds, fd_set *restrict readfds, fd_set *restrict writefds, fd_set *restrict errorfds, struct timeval *restrict timeout);
[21:03] <penguin42> ok, thanks
[21:04]  * penguin42 wonders wth it's an int rather than an unsigned int - I don't get why a negative number would make any sense
[21:04] <mgdm> there's a few cases where I wonder that too :)
[21:55] <Azelphur> I like how the encryption on Ubuntu doesn't give me a prompt or anything on my laptop
[21:55] <Azelphur> It's super secret, "Wait for the screen to go black...enter the password and press enter"
[21:56] <mgdm> heh
[21:57] <penguin42> Azelphur: That's a bug - if you kill plymouth is does, and I have seen it work on 12.04 - but not everyone does
[21:57] <Azelphur> hehe