[07:16] morning all === iahmad is now known as iahmad|afk [08:05] Morning all [08:12] morning [08:31] Morning all. [08:32] Yet another "inset"day... I don't remember these at all when I was at school. [08:32] my code club school have one tomorrow. [08:32] so no code club this week [08:34] Mine are both off as well TheOpenSourcerer, today and tomorrow [08:34] And 2 days at the end of the week before last [08:36] gosh diplo that's mad! [08:37] Yep, had a rather heated arguement with a couple of teachers [08:37] So they've basically had a 2 week half term [08:37] And we agreed to disagree in the end, yep! [08:37] lol [08:37] They came back at me with well we work these hours and we do this and we do that. [08:37] uhm [08:38] they are at work on the inset days [08:38] I said funnily enough I work more hours than you for less pay and less holiday and I havent striked yet [08:38] its not additional days off [08:38] But it's additional days off for me! Why not take them in the school holidays [08:38] because thats their contracted holiday [08:39] would you give up your family holiday and go back to work [08:39] Nope, not the whole lot, they don't have all the holidays off [08:39] I didn't say all [08:39] #blameKennethBaker [08:39] But my point is, don't close the school. We don't close our offices because people need training. [08:40] you probably have more redundancy than most schools [08:40] don't you want your teachers trained? [08:40] take your kids to work [08:40] problem solved [08:40] and if you aren't at your desk there aren't 20/30 people sat around doing nothing as a result (as is the case for school) [08:41] popey: there is a difference between "train the teachers when they aren't at school" and "don't train the teachers" [08:41] yeah as if they would be "sat around doing nothing" [08:41] more like starting a riot [08:41] much as I don't follow the bewilderment at inset days [08:41] heh, true [08:41] Anyone fancy a free Galaxy Tab (Think it's an old one but it's "free")... http://www.trefor.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Mailing_LONAP_EN.html [08:41] it takes about 5 minutes of no teacher for a classroom full of kids to turn into lord of the flies [08:41] You just have to visit every stand at a trade show. [08:41] ali1234: sounds like a valuable educational experience [08:42] TheOpenSourcerer: I can't help but wonder just how awful a show must be to make bribing people with a tablet viable [08:43] heh [08:43] lol - Smasung are sponsoring and it's their old tab. They've probably got millions sitting in a drawer somwhere. [08:44] * popey ponders breakfast [08:45] I'm wondering if today will be a mini-Christmas [08:46] I'm waiting for all kinds of deliveries, including socks, spices, phone cases, handkerchiefs, and phones. [08:49] * popey wonders where his 3doodler is [08:50] * xnox hates my local pub, walked up for a full english breakfast, but they are still closed =( [08:51] 'hate' seems rather strong for that... [08:52] popey: turns out someone has been participating in so many Kickstarter campaigns he's polluted our Avocado "Waiting to be delivered" list with them [08:53] ☻ [09:28] Egg Banjo! [09:28] popey: sounds messy...? [09:30] its always spooky when you accidentally click on an exe file in linux and wine just pops the application up [09:30] good morning everyone. [09:31] morning brobostigon [09:31] morning jussi [09:31] mungbean: brings back memories from1999 :P [09:31] morning [09:31] morning bashrc [09:33] what's the equivalent of kazam for windows? need to screencast a bug [09:35] fraps [09:36] thx [09:36] i am proud to be a windows noob nowadsys [09:36] haha, I got a replacement board and graphics card for my windows pc over the weekend. Suddenyl realised I had no idea how to install the right drivers etc. [09:37] Not sure I'm *proud* of it but it's nice to not be able to fix most people's computers for them :) === schwuk_away is now known as schwuk [09:41] mud sticks [09:41] and i have a wide family [09:42] (they're not fat) [09:46] mungbean: so you've exhausted all your distro & desktop swaps and the only option left was Windows? [09:46] i had to test a bug reported by a user [09:47] you may be surprised to hear this but... [09:47] i've been happy on elementary for over a year [09:47] my DE usage has gone from KDE->gnome2->every DE under the sun for 1 yr->elementary [09:48] my home laptop is on unity for the missis [09:49] phew [09:49] at some point during the wandering years i've become an LTS man [09:49] i think thats age + time available for tinkering [09:50] elementary setup is v v similar to how i had gonem2 anyway [09:51] popey: when learning git, was there a particular tutorial you followed? [09:51] Good morning all; happy Use Your Common Sense Day! :-D [10:01] so I don't need to for the rest of the year? [10:02] "The problem with common sense is it ain't that common." [10:06] JamesTait: isnt that day everyday? [10:07] mungbean: the one Lorna Jane posted [10:07] jussi, I wish someone had told the rest of the world that. ;) [10:07] JamesTait: ++ [10:08] mungbean: [10:08] bah [10:08] http://teach.github.com/presentations/git-foundations.html#/ [10:09] JamesTait: i've got non, does that mean my day can't be happy? [10:09] cheers [10:10] MooDoo, you can be happy marvelling at the common sense of those around you. :-P [10:10] JamesTait: I work in tech support, there is non in here ;) [10:11] i have a user who runs all of his appliactions from another server even though his own pc can run them fine. e.g. openoffice, xdvi, etc, etc, all X displayed [10:11] this is the user who suffered serious stress when asked to change his password [10:12] it's not uncommon for users to carry on with what works even when there's an apparently technically better solution [10:12] yeah, they all continued logging ont that server to run pine even though they could run pine on their own pc, a problem that went away in the 90s [10:14] stupid Parcelforce [10:15] mungbean: yeah, but did logging on to the server to run pine ever stop working? [10:16] I still apparently do things to solve long-solved problems simply because there's never been a particularly good reason to stop [10:17] I think that's the reasoning behind most of my annoyance at Ubunt or Unity [10:19] hardware: asus k53u software: ubuntu 13.10 internet connection: virgin media 30 mbps breadband, recording an actual speed of 16.6289062 Mbps. why am i unable to streem a bbc iplayer radio programme then? [10:19] dubaco_1: what happens when you try? [10:21] i can stream tv. no issue, no buffering... when i try radio it says i have insuffficient bandwidth [10:22] i cant stream google play movies though [10:25] i can listen to radiosveriges p3 no issues. [10:27] BigRedS, * [10:45] sorry, ended up on the phone [10:45] dubaco_1: not that I can be particularly helpful; seems the BBC's just mis-estimating your bandwidth [10:46] which is weird; I use iplayer radio all the time and I don't think I've ever had that [10:46] a workaround would be to get_iplayer it, but without knowing the BBC's metrics it's going to be hard to tell what's wrong there [10:50] get_iplayer wont work anymore [10:51] wont it? I used it the other day for telly stuff [10:51] not tried on radio for a while, though [10:52] get_iplayer doesn't work for radio [10:59] Morning all [11:01] when did that happen? [11:03] looks okay to me: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6358192/ [11:03] hmm, didnt for me [11:03] odd [11:04] ERROR: Failed to get version pid metadata from iplayer site [11:05] BigRedS: that works for me too [11:05] gonna try again [11:06] mungbean: that looked more like failure than "works for me too" :) [11:06] i tried your command rather than my own [11:06] ohh [11:06] I haven't checked that the audio file works, though [11:06] ./get_iplayer shaun --get [11:07] yep, works [11:07] v2.82 [11:07] I've got 2.83-1 out of the 13.10 repos [11:08] ooh look at you [11:08] ;) [11:11] haha [11:11] gotta keep up-to-date with command-line means of watching the telly [11:11] anyone want a free flight from brisbane to melbourne? [11:11] 31 dec [11:13] ordered by another mr mungbean who doesn't know his own email [11:13] i can also change the flight :-| [11:14] haha [11:15] mungbean, http://xkcd.com/1279/ [11:15] relevant++ [11:16] wish i'd realised this when i thought i was being clever by snatching m.mungbean rather than mungo.mungbean@gmail.com [11:17] * popey logs into his gmail account for the first time in a while [11:17] If I add a facebook account to Online Accounts does it do anything more than enable chat in Empathy? I'm trying to use Empathy but it doesn't seem to want tot talk to Facebook or Google via XMPP [11:19] BigRedS, google blocked external xmpp [11:19] BECAUSE FREEDOM [11:19] ah look, a mail from a curtain company to someone called Alan Pope [11:20] directhex: external xmpp works in pidgin [11:21] Good morning peeps :) [11:21] directhex: oh, google the noun not google the verb [11:21] BigRedS, i mean you can't xmpp a google user from a non-google user [11:21] yeah, I'm a google user - I've always just plugged my google account details into pidgin [11:22] and then I get google talk in my IM client [11:22] also, google hangouts is not xmpp. google talk was [11:22] still is, it seems [11:23] This works in Pidgin on this machine, but not in Empathy, so I'm unconvinced the problem's at Google [11:24] the only thing that broke with gtalk <--> gtalk thing with the new Hangouts is that Empathy can't do the video call anymore [11:24] as far as I can tell [11:24] ah, do you have google working in empathy? [11:25] seems to work ok, although I don't have my laptop with me at the moment. [11:25] I can do chat with it to SO using Hanouts on his mobile [11:25] Hangouts, even [11:26] empathy never could do video [11:26] i mean it said it could, but it never actually worked [11:27] ali1234: oh ok, I must've dreamed it then. [11:27] MooDoo: ah, fair enough. Do you know if you configured it as an XMPP account or as a Google one? [11:27] ali1234: it worked for me before now but it is ugly [11:28] I'm a bit concerned at Google or Facebook taking over other things that I don't want them to if I add them as an "Online Account" rather than as a jabber account [11:29] the reason it does not work is because gtalk uses a proprietary codec [11:29] empathy <-> empathy over gtalk works [11:29] if the other person is using an official google clientm you cannot talk to them [11:29] bah. [11:29] ali1234: ah yeah that would be why we were both testing empathy at the time :) [11:30] can empathy use whatever it is that pidgin uses? [11:30] pidgin has the same problem [11:30] and yes, it can use libpurple plugins [11:30] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pidgin/+bug/735651 here is the bug i reported about this two and a half years ago [11:30] Ubuntu bug 735651 in pidgin (Ubuntu) "pidgin <-> google talk video calling does not work" [Undecided,New] [11:31] Oh, I'm not interested in video [11:31] all I want is textual xmpp [11:32] works fine [11:32] mine doesn't [11:32] well, empathy is probably broken [11:32] it works fine in pidgin as an XMPP account [11:32] yeah, I don't doubt that. But I wonder how it's broken such that I can XMPP to work's jabber server but not to google's [11:32] yeah, and all of them work fine in pidgin [11:33] but the 'indicator' in the top bar is actually a menu button and the closest I can get to working indicators is the left bar [11:33] no idea what you mean [11:33] bug 1243240 [11:33] bug 1243240 in indicator-messages (Ubuntu) "It is unclear what sort of unread message is being indicated" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1243240 [11:34] so, to get the feature whereby I can see unread emails and unread IMs as different things I need to use the icons on the left bar, I think. But Pidgin doesn't integrate into that [11:34] ali1234: Very few of them work with each other, I was at a meeting where we tried to do video/audio conf with free tools and pretty much failed [11:35] I did find a howto, but just using Empathy appeared easier, especially since it's apparently the blessed IM app and so I assumed least-broken [11:35] BigRedS: pidgin shows you unread emails as well as IMs anyway, so that's impossible [11:36] ali1234: what? [11:36] I've never known pidgin show me emails [11:36] you probably don't have any email accounts added to it [11:36] * penguin42 has never noticed a way to add email to it [11:36] pidgin stores a lot in clear text [11:36] oh, no. is it a mail reader? [11:37] just add a XMPP account for gtalk. when you get gmail, pidgin tells you [11:37] like your gmail chat passwords [11:37] same with MSN/hotmail [11:37] ali1234: is there some bonus to that? I don't want my emails in my IM client [11:37] notifications, not emails [11:38] my actual problem is that I want two icons - one of which tells me if I have unread email and another that tells me if I have unread IMs [11:38] well the bonus is that i don't have to run thunderbird and let it download all 4GB of email just to get an alert when i've got a new mail, which i will read in a browser anyway because thunderbird is rubbish [11:38] i used to use an app for that [11:38] mungbean: was it XFCE? [11:38] :) [11:40] gmail-notifier [11:40] was great, but ubuntu killed it [11:40] s/unity/ [11:40] BigRedS: you can view the icons in the launcher for Unity [11:41] davmor2: is the launcher the thing on the left? [11:41] it's one of the things n the left... [11:41] mungbean: what happened to gmail-notifier? [11:42] the thing on the left with the icons in it? Where Thunderbird has a little number telling me the unread emails? [11:42] "ubuntu killed it" [11:42] BigRedS: Yes the icons have numbers in for mail and im [11:42] davmor2: pidgin doesn't have numbers in but empathy does [11:42] because i just fixed a bug that killed most third party indicators in saucy... [11:42] stopped working due to changes brought about by the systray [11:42] author didn't update it [11:42] hence my trying empathy and noticing that it cannot XMPP to goofle [11:42] god knows how that ever got past QA [11:42] *google [11:43] I think xfce might be the easier solution... [11:43] "the desktop won't be neglected" they said... [11:43] ali1234: QA only test the applications that supported by Ubuntu main possibly ie the one on the iso [11:44] thats not entirely true [11:44] ali1234: the desktop isn't cloudy enough [11:44] community qa people test all kinds of things [11:46] yeah, unfortunately this bug was in a library [11:46] Hm. Online accounts appears to want access to all of my Google account. Is there some config somewhere to restrict it? [11:46] so testing all the apps would never find it [11:46] and especially automated testing [11:47] ali1234: Testsuite against the library? [11:47] also unfortunately, since it was in a library it broke a whole range of apps that use it [11:47] yeah it has a testsuite - which doesn't work properly [11:47] and doesn't actually test the thing that broke [11:48] ah well that never helps :-) [11:48] is it safe to send your bank account and sort code around clear text to friends and family? [11:49] mungbean: no [11:49] i think it's possible to set up direct debits with those [11:49] with just those [11:49] yeh it is - Jeremy Clarkson proved that the hard way [11:49] not *just* those. you also need some fake ID and a forged signature [11:50] but yeah, it's not safe [11:50] mungbean: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7174760.stm [11:50] a cheque has those details on [11:50] and we give them out [11:50] mungbean: Yes it's a hopeless system [11:50] you're unlikely to have any problems [11:50] they only did clarkson to make a point [11:51] "The bank cannot find out who did this because of the Data Protection Act and they cannot stop it from happening again.?? [11:51] although somebody may have stoeln my birth cert from my mums house last year [11:51] it is a system that mostly works because it always has [11:51] i did some epic shredding over the weekend [11:52] mungbean: Yeh the system is just hopelessly broken, if you get some money coming into your account it's really difficult to track [11:52] electronically? [11:52] mungbean: Yeh, I had a problem where I couldn't tell where something came from and the bank was just hopeless [11:53] i wish i had that problem [11:54] ali1234: Unfortunately it wasn't significantly large [11:55] one of them was I'd started a monthly dd to another bank, and checked with the source to see it had gone in; it showed money going out and one coming straight back in, and the source bank said they couldn't check whether the money that came back in was actually from what went out (it was the same amount) [11:56] soudns wrong [11:56] they wouldn't believe it until I ended up running between the banks and found they'd typo'd the destination account number [11:56] Haha, now I can't see how to get Thunderbird icon thingies in XFCE [11:57] BigRedS: what version, and what do you mean by "thingies"? [11:57] Up in the top bar there used to be an icon that changed in appearence when I had unread messages [11:57] there's two different kinds of those [11:58] if you want the same one you had in unity, you need to be running 13.10 and you need to do this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Saucy/Gtk3Indicators [11:58] if you want the other type, idk... [11:58] No, I specifically don't want Unity's one because I want one for IM and one for email [11:59] that's why I'm in XFCE [11:59] well, xfce now uses indicators [12:00] you can have the messaging indicator and also the pidgin notifier at the same time [12:00] ah right, so it's going to do whatever unity does? [12:00] sort of, but it can also do the old way too [12:00] and the messaging indicator will include the pidgin stuff? [12:00] yes [12:00] right [12:00] if you can find a thunderbird notifier, you can use that instead [12:00] I might just find a 9.10 CD [12:01] perhaps thunderbird-gnome-support [12:01] i dunno why you want two icons [12:01] because I don't feel teh need to immediately respond to unread mail but I do to unread jabbers [12:02] I'm beginning to think that I'm quite peculiar in this sense, but for the fact that all the admin people here also complain about it [12:02] i barely use the icon tbh [12:02] i look for blue tabs in my chat window, or the "new emails" banner on the contacts list [12:02] BigRedS: Do you not have your jabbers set to pop up a window? [12:03] penguin42: no, and I shudder to think how awfully that would work when I were on a different workspace [12:03] anyway, if pidgin is more important, then just add a notification area and get a icon just for pidgin [12:03] ali1234: is that doable in unity? [12:03] maybe. i think you can whitelist pidgin [12:03] i dunno, i don't use it [12:03] it's not more important, it's just that the distinction is more important to me than a several-hundred pixel wide blankness at the top of my monitor [12:03] ah, cool. I'll have a fiddle... [12:04] all incoming messages open a new tab for me in pidgin [12:04] so i only ever have one window [12:04] yeah, but that requires that you look at the pidgin window [12:04] sometimes I'm working in a different window [12:04] ali1234: I have multiple pidgin windows - it's actually why I like pidgin, persuading stuff to go into the 'right' window is more tricky [12:04] and I use multiple workspaces which unity seems to have decided is an afterthought [12:04] there's the notification icon for that though [12:05] BigRedS: It's less of an afterthought than gnome [12:05] yeah, is that what I'm going to go away and see if I cna work out how to add? Or is that the envelope? [12:05] no [12:05] penguin42: not really. Gnome can at least manage "always on visible workspace" [12:05] it's the speech buble with green circle thing [12:05] (or could last time I tried it) [12:05] turns yellow when you have messages and higlights [12:05] ah! That's what I'm after! So, yeah, I need to work out how to add that to unity [12:05] also turns yellow when you get an email, but i think you can turn that off [12:06] yeah, if pidgin doesn't know about emails I guess it wont do that anyway [12:06] http://askubuntu.com/questions/30742/how-do-i-access-and-enable-more-icons-to-be-in-the-system-tray [12:07] btw, it's all different depending what version you are on... [12:07] I don't have a 'panel' under unity [12:07] there's a battle of air con vs radiators in here [12:08] oh! haha! Well, I shouldn't have really assumed otherwise [12:08] the key has been moved in recent versions [12:08] see the comments [12:08] "Do note that the system tray is entirely removed in 13.04 and newer and that older applications that still have not been ported need to be updated" [12:08] wonderful [12:08] http://askubuntu.com/questions/67312/how-do-i-enable-the-pidgin-system-tray-icon [12:09] ah yeah [12:09] so [12:09] xfce it is then [12:10] yeah, I was just coming to that conclusion [12:11] or fix empathy and get used to also losing 32px of screen width [12:11] (or do that thing I found somewhere to get pidgin to have numbers there). [12:11] either way it's pretty clear that it's not going to be 'fixed' as far as we're concerned [12:11] you could probably prevent thunderbird from using the message menu at all [12:12] perhaps, but I'd like to see both [12:12] and I'm really not sure why this appears so hard to do. It's what everyone did 15 years ago [12:13] because everything old is automatically worse than hitler [12:13] well, yeah [12:13] but sometimes I'd like to enable worse-than-hitler [12:14] if only they would bring back an option for spacebar heating [12:14] AlanBell: Is that for warmth or punishment/notification [12:14] http://xkcd.com/1172/ [12:15] haha [12:17] nice [12:18] there's an xkcd for everything, else dilbert [12:18] yeh it's useful to check dilbert so it can tell you what will happen in the next meeting [12:19] right. So I need to hack together an application indicator. Is this a GTK thing or some other Ubuntu-only thing? [12:19] https://plus.google.com/117474986382867317779/posts/9B1izdYHNwR [12:19] I wonder if Debian's XFCE will be more compliant [12:19] ubuntu's xfce is largerly identical to the debian one [12:20] making appindicators is pretty easy btw, after you patch the bug that makes it almost impossible in saucy :) [12:20] gargh. [12:20] I might just stop using computers [12:22] until you discover someone's ported netbsd to the slide rule. there is no escape! [12:23] xfce is gonna be really good in 14.04 [12:24] ali1234: is there a patch for this bug that makes it almost impossible? If I can package that *and* whatever hack I produce this might work [12:24] yes [12:24] there's even a package [12:24] oh goody. what's the bug? [12:24] even better! [12:24] bug 1203888 [12:24] bug 1203888 in libappindicator (Ubuntu) "appindicator ignores menu entries after having sent the menu to the indicator" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1203888 [12:24] you have to build the package yourself though, because it won't build in a ppa, because the tests are broken [12:25] bug 1247162 [12:25] bug 1247162 in libdbusmenu (Ubuntu) "fails to build from source in PPA due to test failure" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1247162 [12:25] ta! [12:26] hopefully that patch will get SRU'd at some point [12:27] you'll also find a nice minimal example of how to make an appindicator on that first bug [12:27] as well as how to build the package [12:28] oh cool. I need to look busy for a bit but I'll have a read through that in a bit. Thanks! [12:29] if you're doing this on xfce you will probably need to install the gtk3 indicators patches [12:29] maybe not though, appindicator should work on both [12:29] nah, unity would be preferable since that's what everyone's already using [12:29] and, more importantly, what I'm already used toi [12:29] i'm not... [12:29] no, everyone here [12:29] BigRedS: by the way there is libnotify-pidgin not sure it that handles the counter on the icon if you prefer pidgin [12:30] has German really got 4 different words for Walnut? [12:30] I only prefer pidgin because it works :) [12:31] BigRedS: so if you install that have a play and see if you get notifications on the icon on the left :) might help you, might not :) [12:31] actually, yeah, everyone here can use empathy and have their launcher not autohide and that should solve the problem for them [12:31] BigRedS: I just use pidgin in KDE, problem solved [12:31] davmor2: apparently I already have pidgin-libnotify installed [12:31] Bloody hell: http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex60 [12:31] everyone install pidgin-festival, turn up the volume, and /join #ubuntu [12:31] i7-920 48GB Ram 2TB Storage = €59/m [12:31] penguin42: except the KDE bit :) [12:32] BigRedS: Meh [12:32] pidgin-libnotify just does the bubbles i think [12:32] TheOpenSourcerer: Heck that's impressive with that much ram/storage [12:33] They just cut the price from €69 and waived the set up fee. [12:33] We have 5 servers with them now. [12:33] TheOpenSourcerer: the 920 is pretty old, so I can imagine the system is quite cheap now, but the 48GB RAM and storage is a chunk [12:33] Yeah sure. [12:33] A newer model: http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/px70 [12:34] TheOpenSourcerer: My i7 is ~3-4 years old, it's the 860 rather than the 920 but they were similar ages [12:35] TheOpenSourcerer: Do you think the i7-920 boxes have already been in use for a few years, and they've just thrown more ram/disk in them to resell them for another couple of years? [12:35] we got one of these fairly recently: http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex40 [12:35] penguin42: Maybe. Who cares? [12:35] as long as they zeroed out the disks [12:35] lol [12:35] oh very nice [12:36] hmm, my vps is ~200GBP/yr [12:36] inc vat [12:36]