[01:28] <ShapeShifter499> has #ubuntu-za and #ubuntu-zw merged?
[06:31] <Kilos> morning all
[06:32] <theblazehen> hi Kilos 
[06:32] <Kilos> ohi theblazehen hows the exams going
[06:33] <theblazehen> Kilos, starting on monday :) Been studying for over a month now
[06:33] <Kilos> good man
[06:33] <theblazehen> My friends are idiots though :/ only started last week :/
[06:34] <Kilos> eish
[06:34] <theblazehen> Yeah. Been telling them to study for the last 5 weeks or so
[06:34] <Kilos> well good for you.
[06:35] <theblazehen> Yep :) Think I will do well this time
[06:36] <theblazehen> Will probably be on and off for a little while, trying to get iptables working with pxe boot and a squid proxy
[06:38] <Kilos> ok good luck with the exams lad
[06:38] <theblazehen> ty Kilos 
[08:06] <Kilos> yo spinza 
[08:06] <spinza> hi
[08:07] <theblazehen> aarghh.. I HATE iptables!
[08:15] <Kilos> lol exciting hey
[08:15] <Kilos> i needed lotsa help with iptables to share internet over 3g
[08:16] <Kilos> theblazehen_, what OS you using?
[08:17] <Kilos> oh he is gone
[08:17] <Kilos> hmm...
[10:50] <spinza> hi guys upgrading to 13.10
[10:50] <spinza> came up to a prompt that asks me whether to keep a certain config file
[10:50] <spinza> selected to view the differences
[10:50] <spinza> and now I don't know how to get back...
[10:52] <spinza> ok answered my own question :q
[10:52] <Kilos> hehe
[10:53] <spinza> didn't make any sense the differences on /etc/gnome/defaults.list
[10:53] <spinza> should I keep or install the package maintainers version?
[10:54] <Kilos> it will work both ways
[10:54] <Kilos> but maybe the packages maintainer is better
[10:54] <spinza> ok done
[10:56] <spinza> in "setting up" phase how long to go?
[10:57] <Kilos> are you letting it upgrade at the same time?
[10:57] <Kilos> that takes longer
[10:57] <Kilos> as in its all coming from the internet hey?
[10:58] <Kilos> then it depends on the speed of your connection
[10:59] <Kilos> many megs to upgrade
[11:00] <spinza> i think it downloaded first
[11:00] <spinza> now it's setting up packages
[11:02] <spinza> used the terminal to do the upgrade
[11:03] <Kilos> ah ok then it downloaded lots
[11:04] <spinza> it keeps asking for different config files for some things i installed (and edited) keeping those
[11:05] <Kilos> ok
[11:05] <Kilos> hi kbmonkey 
[11:06] <kbmonkey> hello
[11:19] <spinza> removing packages now. Must be the end?
[11:20] <Kilos> yeah getting close
[11:20] <nlsthzn> Goeie more Suid Afrika
[11:20] <Kilos> hi there neelsie
[11:21] <nlsthzn> how are you uncle Kilos ?
[11:21] <Kilos> bad head day but ok otherwise ty and you nlsthzn ?
[11:22] <nlsthzn> :/ sorry to hear uncle Kilos ... best not be infront of the PC then ... I am OK, went and watched the game which was "meh" and had to much rum ... human again now at least :p
[11:23] <Kilos> hahaha was a bit disappointing game that
[11:23] <nlsthzn> what is it with our games and the refs?!
[11:24] <Kilos> refs suck especially those
[11:24] <Kilos> tara is revving about that one
[11:25] <Kilos> they need a refs accademy i think to standardise 
[11:25] <nlsthzn> could help, I dunno :p
[11:25] <Kilos> not let each one see what he wants to
[11:26] <Kilos> or the tmo needs top power to judge
[11:26] <nlsthzn> technology can't remove biased unfortunately :p
[11:26] <Kilos> tmo should be able to stop the game
[11:27] <nlsthzn> and fire the ref :p
[11:27] <Kilos> lol ya
[11:37] <charl> hi
[11:37] <charl> Maaz: coffee on
[11:37]  * Maaz starts grinding coffee
[11:37] <nlsthzn> alo
[11:37] <Kilos> hi charl 
[11:37] <charl> hi nlsthzn 
[11:37] <charl> hi Kilos 
[11:38] <charl> has anyone taken a look at cgit http://git.zx2c4.com/cgit/
[11:38] <charl> it's interesting to me that when i google for linux-related tools i often see links to arch linux's wiki
[11:38] <charl> for example now i get https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Cgit as the second result
[11:38] <charl> when i google for cgit, i mean
[11:38] <nlsthzn> arch linux has most probably got the best wiki of any distro
[11:39] <charl> yeah, it's such a pity that ubuntu's wiki is often full of incomplete or outdated info
[11:39] <charl> arch seems to have gotten the community thing right, where ubuntu totally failed
[11:39] <charl> even debian seems to have a much better wiki than ubuntu
[11:39] <nlsthzn> wiki's are maintained by the community and the community is failing at keeping the wiki up to date
[11:40] <charl> i sometimes reference debian's wiki for ubuntu related matters
[11:40] <nlsthzn> then again if you look at the target audiences it can be expected...
[11:40] <charl> that's logical, but the question is why
[11:40] <charl> target audience? that ubuntu is targeted at noobs, you mean?
[11:40] <nlsthzn> majority of people that choose ubuntu just want an OS that works (which it mostly does)
[11:40] <nlsthzn> they don't want to give back time and effort etc.
[11:41] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for charl!
[11:41] <nlsthzn> arch you need to invest time and effort just to get going, so you are more invested from the get go...
[11:41] <charl> Maaz: thanks
[11:41] <Maaz> charl: Sure
[11:41] <nlsthzn> well that is the way I see it at the moment :Lp
[11:42] <charl> but even debian has a relatively good wiki, why is ubuntu failing so miserably
[11:42] <charl> arch's install process is a joke, it's worse than going back to slackware times
[11:42] <Kilos> how much wiki updating have you done charl
[11:43] <charl> but i like seeing distros like manjaro being based on arch
[11:43] <Kilos> clever peeps gotta do that so there are errors
[11:43] <Kilos> no errors
[11:43] <charl> Kilos: that's a good point actually, i haven't contributed to the wiki either
[11:44]  * nlsthzn hates wiki's grrrr
[11:44] <Kilos> lol
[11:44] <charl> nlsthzn: why?
[11:44] <charl> i thought it is one of the best way to gather info
[11:44] <Kilos> aw looks like spins upgrade isnt working
[11:44] <nlsthzn> using is ok, editing is ugh
[11:45] <charl> i have used a variety of wikis, docuwiki, mediawiki, i can't say the editing part is so bad
[11:45] <charl> even trac has a built-in wiki
[11:45] <Kilos> it has to be done properly otherwise it misleads peeps that dont know
[11:45] <charl> there should be an ubuntu documentation project that organises volunteers
[11:45] <nlsthzn> I don't like the mark-up or what ever you call it to format things... PITA imo
[11:46] <charl> people who document, people who verify and check, people who look at language etc
[11:46] <charl> nlsthzn: what i don't like is every wiki having a different format, they should standardise on something like markdown
[11:46] <charl> but i don't think the formatting is so bad, as long as it is used consistently
[11:46] <Kilos> most clever buntu peeps dont have time for stuff like that
[11:46] <nlsthzn> there has been many such surges done but they never seem to sustain because you have a few people doing all the work and then they get busy and nobody picks up the slack...
[11:47] <charl> well debian and arch seems to be getting it right
[11:47] <charl> so clearly it _can_ work
[11:47] <charl> the question is, why isn't it working in ubuntu's case
[11:47] <charl> that it can or can't work is not in question, clearly it can
[11:47] <Kilos> you have the answer man
[11:47] <nlsthzn> scroll up :p
[11:48] <Kilos> do a page a day and see how quick it catches up
[11:50] <charl> i'll have to do something about it next time i'm busy with something
[11:51] <charl> i can't just randomly start editing wiki pages
[11:51] <charl> i'm just going to make it worse
[11:51] <Kilos> lol thats why i say clever peeps
[11:51] <Kilos> wiki is read only for me
[11:52] <charl> talking about contributing, i completely left my e2ee project laying in the ditch
[11:52] <charl> i'm serious about taking this further but i literally have not received any feedback or comments on it yet
[11:52] <Kilos> again
[11:53] <Kilos> thats the prob man no one has time
[11:53] <Kilos> try the pro tonight for feedback
[11:53] <Kilos> he use to be busy here most days but he too is rare now
[11:53] <charl> it's not time that is the problem, it's that i just don't want to make it yet another one man project
[11:53] <charl> but i do have time enough to throw into this
[11:54] <Kilos> ya but you need feedback from peeps in the know of whats needed
[11:54] <charl> exactly
[11:54] <Kilos> useless for me to comment
[11:54] <charl> not necessarily, you might have some good ideas
[11:54] <Kilos> if you dont mind ingorant suggestions then ill help you
[11:55] <charl> all suggestions are good, there are no ignorant suggestions :P
[11:55] <Kilos> 90% of what you talk about there is greek to me
[11:55] <charl> it was a quick draft-up so that fault might be with me
[11:56] <Kilos> you want to make a secure irc chat thingie right?
[11:56] <charl> you could call it that yes
[11:56] <charl> although it was supposed to be a protocol for end-to-end encrypted communication, it doesn't matter what's in it
[11:56] <Kilos> now what i dont understand is, will it still use freenode etc?
[11:56] <charl> it could be im, voip, video conference, file sharing, etc
[11:57] <Kilos> wb spinza whats news
[11:57] <charl> no it has nothing to do with freenode, freenode is an irc network
[11:57] <charl> you could implement something similar to irc on top of it, but that wouldn't be the idea
[11:57] <Kilos> so it will be a stand alone thing
[11:57] <charl> irc is a fairly public medium, no real need to secure it
[11:57] <charl> well, the use case is more along the lines of xmpp than irc
[11:58] <Kilos> but who will use it
[11:58] <charl> the only problems with xmpp is that 1) you have data rentention on the server and 2) it has no automatic fail-over
[11:58] <charl> people who do, just like irc or xmpp or anything else
[11:58] <charl> who would use irc or xmpp or email
[11:59] <Kilos> no man dodo
[11:59] <Kilos> everyone uses irc
[11:59] <charl> not everyone, a bunch of people who are fairly clued up (people like us)
[11:59] <Kilos> who will they connect to on a new thing
[11:59] <charl> the noobs use facebook and twitter
[11:59] <charl> only other people using clients that run the same protocol
[11:59] <Kilos> hahaha the pro uses twitter
[12:00] <charl> the same as any other service, who started using facebook at the start, also only a few people
[12:00] <Kilos> i mean charl `you make this thing right
[12:00] <charl> i would use it, and i know a few other people who would also, and that's enough for a start
[12:00] <Kilos> then no one knows about it so it just lies there
[12:00] <Trixar_za> Then why not use xmpp?
[12:00] <charl> that would be really bad
[12:01] <charl> Trixar_za: i gave two reasons above
[12:01] <Kilos> hi Trixar_za 
[12:01] <charl> so the idea would be to get the word out
[12:01] <Trixar_za> There's a nice server written in lua called Prosody IM
[12:01] <Kilos> and for that use fb and twitter to get the word out
[12:01] <charl> Trixar_za: i run it, so i know about it
[12:01] <charl> Trixar_za: that's what's running on charl.eu right now
[12:03] <charl> you can actually add me as a contact if you want, charl at charl dot eu
[12:03] <charl> both email and xmpp
[12:04] <Kilos> i gotta go lie down a while
[12:04] <Kilos> wbb
[12:04] <charl> enjoy Kilos !
[12:05] <Kilos> no man no one enjoys an exploding head
[12:05] <Kilos> hehe
[12:05] <Kilos> like saying enjoy your migraine
[12:06] <Trixar_za> I ran Prosody once and it was pretty good for my needs. Not exactly IRC though. Even the creator of IRC saw it going in a different direction rather than stagnating
[12:07] <Trixar_za> Interestingly, it did include secure, private and p2p communication
[12:07] <Trixar_za> It also includes meta-networking. Which is semi-taboo on IRC and which I helped make worse with my Janus improvements :P
[12:08] <charl> Kilos: oh sorry man :(
[12:08] <charl> get better soon!
[12:09] <Kilos> np ty
[12:10] <charl> Trixar_za: i'm not sure i understand, are you talking about xmpp now? you can encrypt messages that goes over xmpp yes
[12:10] <charl> Trixar_za: you have two forms of encryption that i saw implemented: openpgp and otr
[12:11] <Trixar_za> No, I mean IRC
[12:11] <Trixar_za> http://www.irc-junkie.org/2012-04-23/interview-with-jarkko-oikarinen-the-inventor-of-irc/
[12:11] <Trixar_za> :P
[12:11] <charl> Trixar_za: otr is the most common form although i've experimented with openpgp in centerim and it works brilliantly
[12:11] <charl> reading
[12:12] <Trixar_za> It's funny because Jarkko writes servers now and most of them has to do with some cryptography implementation
[12:13] <charl> whow i really like the idea of network of networks
[12:15] <charl> it shouldn't be too difficult to implement cryptography on top of irc
[12:15] <charl> just pass around openpgp encrypted messages in private conversations
[12:15] <charl> in a public chatroom (like this) it would be much more difficult though, but also probably unnnecessary
[12:16] <Trixar_za> The question is how much do you leave to the client and how much do you leave to the server
[12:16] <charl> i would say leave the absolute minimum to the server
[12:17] <charl> the client runs on your own machine and is under your full control
[12:17] <charl> the server could be anything, it should be assumed to be non-trusted
[12:17] <charl> that was my whole inspiration behind my idea too
[12:17] <charl> just use the server as a dumb router to route messages around
[12:18] <charl> just use it to a) hide your ip b) get messages without needing to work around nat routing in ipv4
[12:18] <charl> and dynamic ip addresses etc, otherwise you need a central directory to look up ip addresses in any case
[12:18] <Trixar_za> Essentially, IRCd are just dumb routers
[12:19] <charl> works extremely well for unsecure conversation
[12:19] <charl> the one issue is you need to "own" some type of identity
[12:20] <charl> on irc that is your nickname, that means you need to register it and authenticate with a password
[12:21] <charl> what i wanted to do is allow a user to authenticate using ppk, a bit similar as with ssh
[12:21] <charl> except with ssh you also have a set of fixed identities and associated public keys on the server
[12:21] <charl> what i wanted to do is let a client say "here, i have this public key, and i can prove that i am the owner using my private key"
[12:22] <charl> challenge-response type scenario
[12:22] <charl> then you proved your identity and the server knows that you are who you claim to be, nothing needs to be stored on the server
[12:22] <charl> you could literally boot up a server from a read-only device
[12:23] <charl> you could boot up a whole cluster using pxe
[12:23] <theblazehen> charl, Got my pc pxe booting :)
[12:23] <charl> if you want to roll out updates, do them centrally and reboot all the servers one by one
[12:23] <charl> nothing new about it, they used to do it with tuxlabs too
[12:24] <charl> the kids break the software, just reboot and everything goes back to its original setup
[12:24] <charl> do all updates centrally, etc, very nice for an african school with poor internet
[12:26] <charl> oh nice, janus looks interesting, even created by a dutch guy
[12:26] <Trixar_za> charl: Funny you say that about public keys... because TS6 servers can use that to authenticate opers and I believe Atheme can use it to authenticate nicknames
[12:27] <Trixar_za> daniel is a pretty good C++ coder. It shows in his code. I heard he taught himself perl mostly by using perldoc
[12:27] <charl> well i used to do that with ssh literally for 8+ years and if you use github you do it in a similar way
[12:27] <charl> so nothing new about it at all
[12:28] <charl> sounds like my type of person
[12:28] <Trixar_za> Yeah, I'm not exactly sure how it works since I haven't used it, but one of my opers do
[12:29] <Trixar_za> does*
[12:29] <Trixar_za> I think the limitation requires that you connect using ssl though
[12:31] <charl> makes sense
[12:31] <charl> ssl does support client certificate authentication
[12:31] <charl> or tls now i hope
[12:33] <Trixar_za> They've added gnutls support to several IRCds as an alternative to openssl
[12:33] <Trixar_za> licensing issues like usual
[12:35] <charl> hmmm
[12:44] <nlsthzn> http://www.thefanclub.co.za/how-to/ubuntu-google-drive-client-grive-and-grive-tools
[12:45] <nlsthzn> nice to see ZA contributing some nifty open source things :)
[12:52] <charl> i used to work for the fsiu - the free software innovation unit - in cape town
[12:52] <charl> we used to do a lot of open source related work in africa
[12:52] <charl> we even went to oscon in 2010
[12:52] <charl> paul scott (my manager) is an oscon veteran
[13:08] <Trixar_za> Working in open source development would rock
[18:07] <Kilos> evening all
[18:08] <nlsthzn> night
[18:08] <Kilos> night nlsthzn 
[18:08] <Kilos> sleep tight
[18:09]  * nlsthzn not going to sleep yet :p initially thought uncle Kilos was going off-line :p
[18:09] <Kilos> i just came back
[18:10] <Kilos> :p yourself
[18:11] <Kilos> pity xchat dont show them so i can see who does what 
[18:12] <Kilos> some peeps stick tongues out
[18:15] <nlsthzn> :p is tongue sticking out
[18:15] <Kilos> hahaha you see
[18:16] <Kilos> and :P
[18:17] <Kilos> hi theblazehen 
[18:19] <theblazehen> hi Kilos
[18:27] <Kilos> lo inetpro het jy darem reen gekry
[18:27] <Kilos> ons het 3 mm
[18:28] <Kilos> spinza_, is your 13.10 working good?
[19:03] <Kilos> night all. sleep tight
[19:33] <inetpro> good evening
[19:34] <inetpro> Maaz: tell Kilos we had a very welcome 4mm to cool us down again
[19:34] <Maaz> inetpro: Got it, I'll tell Kilos on freenode
[19:36] <superfly> hi inetpro 
[19:54] <inetpro> superfly: how's the weather down in the cape?
[21:08] <spinza> thanks for checking up kilos. everything was fine except my mariadb got uninstalled.  weird thing with mysql but sorted it out quickly.  and didn't lose my db
[21:08] <spinza> just wich my adsl was as good