=== GentileBen is now known as Armarand
=== Armarand is now known as RaycisCharles
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
diddledanoh why00:32
penguin42AlanBell: Why have all the eggs in your G+ picture got small holes/dimples in00:32
AlanBellI have a little tool for poking holes in them, it lets the steam out of the bubble of air that sits on the fat end of the egg00:35
AlanBellstops them cracking while they boil00:35
penguin42well, there you go00:35
AlanBellthe thing that they are sitting in is a water bath boiler00:35
AlanBellbasically steam cooks them00:35
penguin42is this good?00:36
AlanBellwell it can do boiled eggs to various consistencies, so if you want the yolk to be a tiny little bit runny in the centre then I can do that00:37
penguin42hmm ok00:40
* penguin42 guesses AlanBell must eat a lot of eggs00:40
AlanBellnot masses, production is very low at the moment00:41
=== iahmad is now known as iahmad|afk
MooDoothat good eh Myrtti08:27
MyrttiI flashed the Galaxy Nexus I have my Finnish sim in with Ubuntu Touch last week, woke up to my bluetooth speaker going all rattattatta, saw a tiny flash of something and it was gone on the phone08:28
Myrttispent some few minutes wondering where the hell the call log was (popey told me) - turns out it was of course08:28
Myrttia telemarketer.08:28
ali1234popey is going to be busy when they release that thing for real08:29
Myrttiand I was getting all panicky about it being a phone call from a hospital that my sisters house had burnt down or something08:29
Myrtti(I rarely get any phonecalls)08:29
directhexsaucy upgrade time.08:31
ali1234has anyone tried KDE connect?08:32
ali1234i kinda want to use their backend to run an indicator08:32
shaunoI might be 8 years out of date, but .. they spelt it with a C?08:33
ali1234KDE is all like, business-y now08:33
ali1234which means they had to stop using K everywhere08:33
shaunothat's just wrong08:34
ali1234also, Konnect was probably already taken08:34
TheOpenSourcererMorning earthlings08:39
popeyPip pip08:40
TheOpenSourcererNice curry on Saturday?08:41
popeyI had a 'special' which had chicken pieces in a sauce mostly made of minced lamb. Was very nice08:41
popeylots of red wine etc08:42
TheOpenSourcererNot been to We. Been to the little Thai place on the corner which was nice recently.08:42
TheOpenSourcererClaire driving then ;-)08:42
popeyno, one of the other mums came and picked us up!08:42
popeythen taxi back08:42
* AlanBell had a naga chicken curry on saturday08:48
AlanBellit was very yum08:48
MooDooI love naga chillies08:48
TheOpenSourcererMe too :-)08:48
TheOpenSourcererAlanBell: Thing 1 has a weird inset day today. He's going in for 1 class from 9 - 9:50 then I need to pick him up... So will be at home today.08:49
DJonesI always think of Naga as being snake related08:49
AlanBellTheOpenSourcerer: ok, I will plug raspberry pi things into your monitor :)08:49
AlanBellDJones: lots of chillies have fearsome names like that08:50
DJonesHeh, yeah I've noticed that trend08:50
TheOpenSourcererI don't know how people who work in "normal" jobs (9-5) manage.08:50
* TheOpenSourcerer grew Naga Viper this year - An awesomely hot chilli08:51
diploMorning all08:56
diploTheOpenSourcerer: I have similar issues, I work through my lunches to cover the weird times that school seem to be imposing just so I have 'flex' time09:02
diploEven though my company doesn't offer flexi time09:02
=== schwuk_away is now known as schwuk
=== alexis is now known as Guest27625
DJonesAlanBell: Have you seen this http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/11/personal_web_and_mail_server_for_raspberry_pi_seeks_cash/09:13
mungbeandiplo: there's 2 types of flexi time though09:15
mungbean"flexible working hours" and "i'll be in late this morning guys but i'll work a bit late too"09:16
AlanBelland "I am off to lunch, might not be back"09:17
diployeah, pretty much the latter one for me.09:18
ali1234what about "i'll be in later" - shows up at 4.55pm, starts meeting (reserved for management)09:18
BigRedSDJones: that looks like a problem that's already been repeatedly solved with differing degrees of completeness09:20
directhexok, saucy.09:20
shaunorunning a mailserver on a pi does not sound fun :/09:22
JamesTaitGood morning all; happy Origami Day! :-D09:23
AlanBellDJones: interesting, I can't quite see the attraction of a non-diy solution when you are using a pi as the platform09:24
BigRedSshauno: if you can find a static IP address to plug it into then it should be fine09:24
BigRedSaside from mail generally not being fun :)09:24
shaunoa static ip that has sane rdns and isn't blocked by half the planet simply for being a residential line09:25
DJonesUrgh, it comes to something when you have to go to work for a rest09:28
dwatkinsIf that Raspberry Pi installation DJones mentioned runs an open proxy, most IRC networks won't allow you on from it.09:31
ali1234why would you be irc'ing from your web/email server?09:31
ali1234(please ignore the fact that I do this)09:31
dwatkinsali1234: as do I :)09:32
mungbeanwhy would you be running an open proxy?09:32
dwatkinsmungbean: I wouldn't (mine is only open to specific IP addresses)09:33
ali1234i think the point here is, nobody is going to have a raspberry pi hosted in a datacentre, it will be in their house. therefore there's no benefit to IRC'ing from it09:33
AlanBellI consider it good practice to IRC from your most important production machine09:34
ali1234it does mean that i know instantly if there's a problem09:34
shauno^ this.  best uptime monitor there is09:34
AlanBell(I am not as it happens)09:34
dwatkinsali1234: if someone doesn't have a hosted server, but they do run a Pi at home that's always on, they might use it as an IRC server/bouncer09:34
ali1234ah, i don't actually use a bouncer09:34
dwatkinsI use irssi in a screen session, but I know people who use bouncers.09:34
ali1234i use ssh socks proxy purely to avoid firewalls09:34
ali1234i actually just run pidgin on my desktop through it09:35
dwatkinsYeah, that's also useful, as it having an external machine I can shell to to do hostname lookups from the outside.09:35
dwatkinsThere are also web-based IRC clients, of course, but for that you may as well use mibbit, I guess.09:35
shaunoI think if he really wants to wrest control from google, he'd be better served trying to create a webmail client that can at least match it09:36
ali1234yes, absolutely09:36
ali1234or a native one for that matter09:36
dwatkinsThere are already a number of solutions for that sort of thing, but I guess he's bringing them toether in a preconfigured image.09:36
shaunoalong with the search / spam control behind it that actually works09:36
dwatkinsgmail's spam control seems to be pretty effective09:37
ali1234it's damn near bulletproof09:37
shaunoright, which is why he'd need to come anywhere close to it09:37
ali1234i don't even care about hiding my email address from spammers09:37
shaunosticking it on a pi rates high on the trendy factor, but doesn't actually answer why people are using google in the first place09:37
* dwatkins ponders getting a flu jab09:38
dwatkinsMy Raspberry Pi does one thing, and it does it very well. If I want to quickly check something is registered correctly in DNS from another machine, it's also useful, but I prefer the idea of having discrete devices for simple tasks.09:39
mungbeananecdotally i've heard of a lot of people getting a cold for 5 days after the4 flu jab09:39
dwatkins(granted, that one thing involves a number of components, but it's not running at 100% CPU usage all day long)09:39
ali1234dwatkins: no, you're supposed to want a single device that does everything, in mobile form factor09:39
dwatkinsmungbean: yeah, I was told it's not worth the potential risk if you're not already at risk.09:39
dwatkinsali1234: but I have a laptop for that ;)09:40
ali1234mobile phone09:40
dwatkinsah yes, the Edge09:40
dwatkinsMy phone gets hot enough listening to the radio.09:40
ali1234which reminds me of what i was doing an hour ago09:40
shaunomy little mifi lives at work.  comes in handy for things like poking dns externally, wasting 7hrs55m a day on reddit, etc09:42
mungbeangnome system monitor takes 20% of CPU , doesn't that rather skew the results ?09:43
dwatkinsI think I have my reddit traffic proxied via home, it's a while since I set foxyproxy up.09:43
ali1234yes, yes it does09:43
dwatkinsmungbean: indeed, as with most task manager type apps09:43
mungbeanwhy so intensive ?09:43
ali1234it's all those svg graphs, they are rendered as vector curves09:43
mungbeanits not hard to make a lightweight cpu monitior?09:43
ali1234if you have 4x CPU, it uses 4x as much CPU to render09:43
dwatkinsxload :D09:44
shaunoI eventually gave up fighting with proxies at work.  seems the easiest way to obey the network rules, is to not use their network09:44
MartijnVdSthat, + a 4G mifi = win :)09:44
shaunoI live in 1987land, I'm happy 3g works09:45
dwatkinsI was hesitant to get a phone without a numberpad.09:45
MartijnVdSshauno: 1987land?09:46
MartijnVdSdwatkins: ♥ my nexus 509:46
dwatkinsMartijnVdS: I have an HTC Desire HD ;)09:47
dwatkinsmy they have big screens09:47
MartijnVdSyeah, but not quite "Note"-esque09:47
shauno"all the better to see you with"?09:47
MartijnVdSshauno: that's cameras09:47
dwatkinsI don't think I have big enough pockets for modern phones.09:47
MartijnVdSyeah, that's starting to become a problem09:49
dwatkinsthis is my favourite solution to modern phones not having a keypad: http://static.freeware4android.net/data/programs/images/Rotary-Dialer-Android_1_28612.png09:50
MartijnVdSdwatkins: does it also make the noises?09:50
shaunodwatkins: surely https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/8929 ?09:51
dwatkinsMartijnVdS: yeah, that's what I use it for (or one of these)09:51
dwatkinsshauno: I have one of those at home ;)09:51
dwatkinsoh, not the portable one09:51
shaunobut this one's bluetooth so you can throw it in your manbag with your tabletphone :09:51
dwatkinsI do have a wireless bluetooth thing that looks like a handset from a rotary phone, and an actual 1950s GPO telephone, though09:52
dwatkinsnice, shauno09:52
shaunoyeah I've seen a few of those.  cabled 'n all.  sticking the dialer in there is a neat trick through09:52
shaunomy main problem with touchscreens is that they're near-useless in the rain.  novelty apps become just as frustrating at that point09:53
dwatkinsalso useless for the blind, or near-as, I assume09:58
AlanBellnot at all09:58
AlanBellloads of blind people have iphones09:59
dwatkinsI guess the voice feedback might be handy09:59
AlanBellit is absolute positioning, so something in the top left, is in the top left09:59
AlanBellwith a mouse that doesn't work if you don't know where the pointer is starting from10:00
shaunoI gotta say, fanboy aside, apple seem to have the hang of accessibility10:02
dwatkinsI was very impressed with the quality of the text-to-speech voice on my Mac.10:02
AlanBellgnome 2 was getting quite good10:03
dwatkins...and then unity ;)10:03
AlanBellor a general focus on visual design at all costs10:04
dwatkinsI'm confused by the current debate about Mir versus its rival, but need to read-up on it to know more.10:04
dwatkinsI was upset you couldn't move the taskbar.10:04
AlanBellvisual design :)10:04
dwatkinsI assume it's all related to Ubuntu phone somehow.10:04
shaunoI haven't been paying a whole lot of attention, but that debate appears to be more politics than anything else10:04
dwatkinsshauno: yeah, I think I'd rather just switch to Gnome 3.10:05
bashrcI think they call it the unity bar, and I think the idea is that it's always supposed to be in a consistent place across devices10:05
bashrcregardless of user preferences10:05
shaunowell, I mean mir vs wayland vs X vs whatever else10:05
AlanBellWayland vs Mir is an odd thing, everyone has an opinion, but there has been practically no information that end users understand to give an informed opinion10:05
shaunoeverything I've heard so far sounds like parents bickering at a beauty pageant for 4yos10:06
dwatkinsindeed, I agree X is old and crusty, but I gather there have been certain decisions surrounding Mir which were made without involving the community.10:06
dwatkinsSo Wayland sounds to me like the better option because it's actually been made with collaboration, but I might be missing something.10:06
bashrcwith Mir vs Wayland I think the main beef was just duplication of effort.  It would have been nice if everyone was pulling in the same direction10:06
dwatkinsAs for the unity bar, bashrc - I can see the point, but when I have two monitors, I don't want it cluttering up the middle, I just want to be able to change stuff.10:07
AlanBellwhich one gets me wobbly windows?10:07
AlanBellor a cube of desktops?10:07
dwatkinsali1234: that's one of the reasons I want Gnome 3 ;)10:07
dwatkinsand that's the other ;)10:07
LaneyI used to love drawing fire on the screen10:07
dwatkinssimple little things...10:08
Laneyhappy days10:08
AlanBellfire on the screen is cool too, I like the stars that orbit the mouse10:08
AlanBellbut neither the wayland people or the Mir people say anything about bling10:08
shaunoyou've just made a pretty good case against displays in general10:09
AlanBellit is all about rendering flat windows onto a flat screen10:09
AlanBellwhere is my 3d desktop that was in Jurassic Park?10:09
ali1234"hmm we need to render some 2d rectangles onto a 2d display. i know, let's use incredibly expensive hardware designed for rendering 3d graphics."10:09
dwatkinsAlanBell: http://fsv.sourceforge.net/10:10
AlanBellthe 3d hardware is incredibly fast, so it is a good thing to use it10:10
dwatkinsI used to run the app they used in Jurassic Park on an Indy, it was hilarious10:11
dwatkinsFSV is a port of the IRIX app they used in the film.10:11
ali1234AlanBell: the thing is, it's not10:11
ali1234the 3d hardware only wins if you are doing animation, effects, transparency10:11
dwatkinsnostalgia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaRHU1XxMJQ10:11
shaunoI'm not sure "use it because it's there" is always a good thing.  eg, I have a battery.  I believe they're expecting Mir to show up in ubuntu phone too10:11
ali1234if you are doing simple windowing, painter's algorithm and dirty rectangles on the CPU absoluely blows away anything you can do with a GPU10:12
AlanBellali1234: yes, so using it and then having a flat desktop with no animation, effects or transparency is a bit of a waste10:12
dwatkinsI agree effects are a waste, but it makes dealing with some boring applications just that little bit more fun.10:13
ali1234another way of looking at it is that if you don't need effects, not using the GPU will give you a better experience, if you are using a desktop that supports that10:13
dwatkinsthat reminds me, I need to renew my parking permit10:13
AlanBellthey are not saying "this will fix window shadows and make them awsome" or even the top bar shadow, or some cool thing with the dash or launcher10:13
dwatkinsI thought Mir was all about rewriting the graphical stack to be all modern and portable to phones.10:14
bashrcyes, I think that's the idea10:14
AlanBellyup, with server allocated buffers which is apparently a good thing for small arm devices10:15
AlanBellbut I am not sure why I should care10:15
ali1234dwatkins: it is. unfortunately the modern ideas on how to do graphics = "you must have lots of animation, and you must use the GPU"10:15
shaunoI do think it's part of why linux can't even spell power management on my laptop :/10:16
popeyshauno: mir is already in ubuntu phone10:18
MyrttiLeapmotion is in Amazon offers of the day at 1110:19
Myrttiif anyone is interested10:19
mungbeanhwo much?10:19
Myrttidunno yet10:19
Myrttiit's 69 now10:19
bashrcI don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with making use of the GPU - so long as it's not vendor specific10:19
Myrttiwell, 7010:20
shaunoI just don't trust linux desktops to do it well, unfortunately.  my laptop gets 8-9 hours under OSX, ~4 hours under XP, and about 90 minutes with ubuntu 12.04.  something is horribly wrong.10:21
AlanBellhttp://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/09/leap-motion-desktop-control-on-linu that is kinda cool10:22
mungbeanhp chromebooks are cheapycheap10:28
andylockranhey guys - what's the best way to setup a port forward on a linux box?10:30
andylockrani.e. I've got a box setup as a dmz, but i'd like to forward just for 1194 to a different machine?10:30
AlanBellhow permanent do you want it, and do you want encryption on the link between the dmz box and the other machine?10:31
AlanBelliptables is one answer, ssh -L is the other answer10:32
SuperMattshorewall aint too shabby neither10:32
SuperMattdoes ufw do port forwarding?10:32
AlanBellthey are all frontends to iptables I think?10:33
shaunoI don't think ufw does forwarding.  just allow/deny/limit10:37
andylockranhey Alan, I want a permanent solution10:37
SuperMattyou may be right10:37
andylockranI'd normally do an SSH tunnel10:37
SuperMattandylockran: you're going to want to look at shorewall then10:37
andylockranI've got ufw setup.10:37
SuperMattI'd switch to shorewall10:37
SuperMattUFW doesn't do what you need it to do10:37
andylockrancan I edit /etc/ufw/before.rules to add a forward using iptables syntax?10:38
SuperMattoooh, good question10:39
shaunoI was just writing something like that, yeah.  you can add iptables rules to before.rules or after.rules, rather than ditching ufw completely10:39
shaunojust note the 'custom rules should be added to ..' comments so you don't get in an arguement with it10:39
AlanBellI think you might want a MASQUERADE rule10:40
brobostigongood morning everyone.10:40
andylockranI've got a non-standard setup already.  eth0 is the internet device, and eth1 is the internal lan10:40
andylockraneth2 are the virtual machines on the box, and that's all setup and working10:41
andylockranI want to port forward to a different IP. i think that's why it's got complicated10:44
andylockranmaybe ssh -L is the best bet10:44
* brobostigon reckons he needs to trim the moustache, it is getting coffee stains.10:49
dwatkinsI nearly shaved mine off by accident yesterday.10:49
mungbeanmoustaches are wrong10:49
shaunoI don't think they're for everyone10:51
mungbeanif you have to have a special sponsored month for anyone to grow them...10:52
shaunoI tried, it looks like a 70s flashback.  except it's grey on the left side and brown on the other.10:52
shaunoI'm only 30.  nowhere near ready to rock a grey tache :/10:53
MartijnVdSso dye it10:55
mgdmGo for the Billy Connolly - purple tache10:55
shaunoI'm not sure I have the big yin's self-confidence10:56
shaunoI mean, I'm pretty sure I've seen his backside more times than my own.  red flag right there10:57
brobostigona friend of mine, has his dyed like that, make me laugh everytime i see it.10:58
davmor2Morning all10:58
brobostigonmorning davmor210:59
mungbeanmeh £49.9911:00
MooDoobloody customers, I know lets phone up support during the 2mins silnce.11:05
brobostigonoh dear11:07
mungbeanis it not at 11.11?11:08
directhexbloody ubuntu11:08
directhexshipping a new kernel ABI every 2 weeks is *hell* for sysadmins11:08
MartijnVdSyay security fixes11:08
MartijnVdSespecially if you need that one feature Ubuntu has disabled in their stock kernels, so every ABI bump = recompile ALL the things11:09
penguin42directhex: Most of the security fixes shouldn't be ABI changers11:09
penguin42actually I'd be surprised any are11:09
TheOpenSourcererandylockran: Sounds like stunnel could be your friend.11:09
MartijnVdSpenguin42: they all are11:09
MartijnVdSpenguin42: hence 3.2.0-56 on precise atm11:09
penguin42MartijnVdS: Right but they don't actually change the ABI11:10
mungbeananyone good with twiki?11:10
directhexnone of the security fixes are ABI bumps ubuntu puts out *feature* updates every 2 weeks11:11
directhexalso, have the missing carriage return from above:11:11
mgdmBIDIBIDIBIDI what's up doc </twiki>11:12
directhexadding support for newer hardware is neato and all, but a) broadly useless unless it's in an install image, and b) every 2 weeks!!?!?!11:12
MartijnVdSdirecthex: don't they do new hardware in the "LTS Enablement" bits only? The ABI changes are for security-only fixes.11:13
penguin42directhex: Curious; I thought the whole purpose of the hardware enablement packages in LTS was to avoid this11:13
directhexMartijnVdS, security fixes don't break ABI11:13
directhexMartijnVdS, except for under extreme circumstances11:13
penguin42directhex: Point to an ABI breaking update?11:14
MartijnVdSdirecthex: then why did last weekend's security update bump it from -55 to -5611:14
directhexpenguin42, any time the kernel changes from -X- to -X+1- it's due to an ABI break11:14
directhexmarlinc, point to a security fix in -55 compared to -5411:16
directhexMartijnVdS, ^^11:16
penguin42directhex: OK hang on - what's this actually breaking for you - you're not actually hitting a missing symbol/function that's changed in the ABI are you?11:17
directhexpenguin42, i have users literally running out of disk space from having 20 kernels installed11:17
penguin42directhex: Oh!11:18
penguin42directhex: Right, that problem - that's not the ABI changing that's the problem; the problem is Ubuntu's inability to clean out old kernels!11:18
directhexpenguin42, it's both11:18
LaneyThat is fixed nowadays11:18
LaneyI don't remember if it's in 12.04 though11:18
directhexpenguin42, debian 7 is on -4-11:18
Laneybut old kernels are marked for autoremoval11:18
penguin42directhex: Yeh but debian is hopelessly broken11:18
MartijnVdSpenguin42: NO FIRMWAREZ!!11:19
penguin42directhex: I thought you were actually complaining about an ABI break....11:19
directhexpenguin42, the package name changes to *force* an ABI break11:19
penguin42(Although looking at 3.2.0-56.86's changelog I don't see why it got inc'd)11:19
penguin42directhex: Sorry by 'ABI break' I took that to mean a binary-interface that actually changed (which should be the reason for that!)11:20
penguin42directhex: But yeh, fundamentally you're problem is a lot simpler - it's just the /boot mess on Ubuntu11:20
directhexpenguin42, plenty of kernel modules will actually fail to load if the kernel's full version number (which is bumped here) does not match11:21
directhexpenguin42, it *is* ABI broken. intentionally.11:21
penguin42directhex: shrug11:21
directhexnot a *big* break, maybe, probably. but broken nonetheless11:21
penguin42directhex: Pretty much everything (even the closed stuff) uses build-at-boot for wrappers, so as long as the actual things you call didnd't change it works11:22
directhexas long as you don't have a /boot partition smaller than a few gig11:22
directhexi.e. as long as you don't use full disk encryption11:22
penguin42directhex: see Laney's comment about cleanup11:22
directhexknow just how bad it is when your upgrade fails due to ENOSPC on /boot, when your have an encrypted root disk?11:23
penguin42directhex: That's fundamentally the problem - and yes I've hit exactly this junk on FDE11:23
MartijnVdSI've had it happen with "plain" (unencrypted) LVM installs11:23
MartijnVdSit's a LOT of work to fix11:23
shaunoit seems like autoprune would be fairly easy to fix?11:26
penguin42shauno: Should be - the challenge is making sure it doesn't go nuts and take out the kernel you're using11:26
penguin42shauno: Actually it's a little more complex than that - if you don't actually reboot for a few upgrades then the challenge is what to keep; so you have to keep the one you're currently booted in and at least one you're going to boot into11:27
LaneyThere's some comments in the file that says what it tries to do11:28
shaunomake a daily task that 'votes' for the current kernel, and expires any 'vote' over n days old.  then whenever you want to stick a new kernel in, tally the votes and kick the bottom 1 or 2.  sorted?11:28
shaunomake age the tie-breaker, and it'll prefer kernels it can suppose work over something that installed and didn't workout so well11:29
penguin42meshlab could really do with using multiple cores11:53
mungbeanjust chomped on my ulcer on my lip :(12:59
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|lunch
=== schwuk is now known as schwuk_away
AzelphurWhelp, my first foray into Sony devices since the PS3 debatable has left me once again hating Sony xD13:28
Azelphurbought the Smartwatch 2, they have since pulled 2/3 of the features that are printed on the box, along with a bunch of other features.13:29
AzelphurYaaaaaay Sony.13:29
* Azelphur returns13:29
MartijnVdSsmart watches aren't a smart investment imho13:29
AzelphurMartijnVdS: I'd be happy with it if it functioned as advertised, i really wanted wrist controls for my media player.13:29
AlanBellI think if I was spending multiple hundreds of pounds on a watch I would want it to have an expected lifetime of quite a bit more than a phone13:32
Azelphurwell, mine was £125.7013:34
MartijnVdSstill too much ihmo :)13:34
Azelphurwell, getting a refund anyway13:35
AzelphurIt's pretty bad when you have 3 features printed on the products box, and the device can only actually perform one of them13:35
Azelphurthis is actually the one and only device I've ever returned under distance selling for just being bad13:36
ali1234hotglue your phone to your arm13:37
ali1234(don't actually do this)13:37
Azelphurnot even a little bit?13:38
popeyyeah, hot glue will burn13:38
popeyuse super glue instead13:38
AzelphurI see13:38
dwatkinsI got a Pebble watch, really like it.13:38
shaunoducttape would seem more watchstraplike?13:39
Azelphurdwatkins: I was so tempted, but I went with the Sony because it has a touchscreen and color display13:39
dwatkinsI wasn't concerned about touchscreen nor colour, it is nice that I can control my music, see e-mails and calls etc.13:40
* Azelphur shrugs13:42
AzelphurI think I might wait on the new google one that is supposed to be arriving13:42
shaunoI'm gonna keep hoping the apple rumours come through13:44
dwatkinsI was tempted to buy a 5th gen iPod nano because it can be worn as a watch.13:44
dwatkinsThat would be perfect with bluetooth.13:44
=== schwuk_away is now known as schwuk
Azelphuralmost got kicked out from Linus Torvalds house for using an iPhone xD14:16
mgdmwho did?14:17
Azelphurmgdm: the Linux Voice people, in the video popey just linked14:17
shaunoreally?  I thought he was a bit more sane than that14:18
daftykinsdo you think it's a joke to try and ask for a partial refund of your monthly ISP fee, when they remotely reset your router whilst you're off-island, stopping you getting access to your own gear?14:19
=== alan_g|lunch is now known as alan_g
shaunoif you don't have an SLA, I'm not sure I'd waste my time, personally14:20
daftykinswell i went so far as to pester them about it, they claim they reconfigured peoples routers to change encapsulation from ATM to PPPoE14:20
MartijnVdSwhy didn't yours come back up then?14:21
daftykinsit did, but i reconfigure them to use a different subnet14:21
daftykinsso although it came back, it was factory reset14:21
MartijnVdSthat's sub-optimal, to say the least14:22
daftykinseverything i like to gain access to remotely / leave running was dead14:22
daftykinsthey claim they won't be doing it again14:22
ali1234this is why you have oob administration14:23
daftykins£44.98 a month for line rental and 40/2 VDSL214:25
daftykinsi wish i didn't have to have the phone :D14:25
diddledanif they have a backdoor to be able to factory reset then I'd posit they needn't factory reset just to update the encapsulation - they can get their script to just change the relevant settings14:26
ali1234not really14:26
ali1234they likely had to push out a new firmware14:26
MartijnVdSfor GCHQ, of course14:26
daftykinsi bet the firmware didn't change. i asked about getting a new one in my original email14:27
daftykinsyeah same version14:27
daftykinsjust a single parameter change on the 'dial up' profile14:28
ali1234what router is it?14:28
daftykinsTechnicolor TG789vn v314:30
daftykinswow with that PDF open, Firefox 25 won't let me edit the address bar14:32
ali1234the firmware on those does have an internet facing config port14:34
ali1234you can disable it, but it might not be enough to keep out the ISP14:34
ali1234they also have an internel telnet interface that can be scripted fairly easily14:34
dwatkinsMy router has an option to allow connections only from a specific IP address, so I set my ISP's source address there just in case they do need to login.14:37
MartijnVdSI've specifically disabled that.14:37
daftykinsyeah this is all disabled, whatever they've got is a manufacturer provided back door14:37
daftykinsali1234: yeah the thing has a rather fail limitation - you can't stop it acting as a DNS server. regardless of your settings, it will provide DHCP leases with itself as the primary IP. you can only bypass that by telneting in14:38
daftykinsi would probably be better off buying a good wireless AP - then using the BT Openreach branded Huawei HG612 i have :)14:39
ali1234daftykins: you can annoy your ISP by reflashing to another ISP's firmware with a known superuser password, and then disable it14:45
hamitronthink I'm going to go back to using a PC as my router14:58
ga73ricwhat are you doing here?14:58
ga73ricwhats the sense of this chat?14:58
MartijnVdShamitron: get an OpenWRT capable router, and use that :)14:59
hamitronI have a wrt54gl14:59
hamitronbut it is dated now14:59
mgdmI have two of those14:59
MartijnVdSI have a TP-Link 430014:59
MartijnVdSit's the New Hotness, I guess15:00
hamitronbut all the good routers cost a fair bit15:00
hamitronespecially when I consider I have unused computer hardware laid all over15:00
MartijnVdShamitron: http://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-Link-TL-WDR4300-Wireless-Gigabit-Router/dp/B00810P80S - 62gbp15:00
hamitron60 quid!15:01
MartijnVdShamitron: lots of TP-Link hardware is supported though15:01
hamitronoh, it is good hardware I'm sure15:02
hamitronjust..... pointless wasting 60 quid15:02
diddledanhamitron: consider the difference in power usage tho15:02
hamitronyeh, power = heat15:02
MartijnVdShamitron: no I mean, they have £20 routers with OpenWRT support as well15:02
hamitronheat = good15:02
diddledanand then the ensuing cost for electricity15:02
MartijnVdShamitron: just don't expect dual-band wifi etc. :)15:02
hamitronwifi? who needs that?15:03
diddledanwifey ftl?15:03
diddledanis that partner-ist?15:03
MartijnVdSdiddledan: dual-band!15:03
* popey hugs his netgear wndr370015:03
hamitronthe 1gbit upgrade would be nice, from 100mbit15:03
popeydd-wrt and openwrt15:04
diddledanpopey: at the same time? :-p15:04
popeyi have two15:04
hamitronnicely done15:04
MartijnVdSDD-WRT is weirdly closed15:04
diddledannot a frankenstein then15:04
MartijnVdSOpenWRT is *very* open (I've built my own images, DD-WRT doesn't like you doing that)15:04
hamitronis openwrt faster than dd-wrt?15:04
diddledanMartijnVdS: yes, it's a shame that15:04
diddledandd-wrt seems to have support for platforms that open doesn't15:05
MartijnVdShamitron: similar, openwrt tends to have newer kernels though15:05
MartijnVdSdiddledan: that's true the other way around too15:05
mgdmI know DD-WRT is a bit odd but I run it anyway because for my purposes it Just Works™15:05
hamitronwell, I mean, which can be cut down to be the lightest?15:05
mgdmhamitron: I'd guess openwrt15:05
ali1234dd-wrt is a kang :(15:05
MartijnVdSmgdm: it's the only Free® firmware with working 5GHz radar detection15:05
mgdmali1234: is a what?15:06
mgdmMartijnVdS: radar detection?15:06
diddledanradar detection?15:06
hamitronso i suppose moving my wrt54gl from dd-wrt to openwrt may be a good start15:06
MartijnVdSyeah, if you run an AP on some 5GHz channel, you need to scan for radar pulses and move to another channel if you detect one15:06
diddledancan I fake radar pulses so that my neighbours all avoid my channel?15:07
MartijnVdSOpenWRT seems to almost support it as well though15:07
ali1234mgdm: what happens when someone grabs a load of open source code (like openwrt) and then merges it with a bunch of non-free junk, and then releases it under a non-free crayon license15:07
mgdmali1234: ah15:08
MartijnVdSdd-wrt prefers old kernels and binary drivers to new kernels and free drivers15:09
MartijnVdSand when you ask "Why" on the forums, the developers shout at you for asking a frequently-asked question (without pointing you to the answer)15:09
daftykinshurry up and refresh everything with Haswell, PC industry.15:18
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|tea
=== alan_g|tea is now known as alan_g
ali1234AlanBell: what was that dbus accessability stuff with zooming?15:45
ali1234to make the zoomed region follow the text cursor15:46
AlanBelltext tracking zoom15:46
AlanBellBug #72729015:46
lubotu3bug 727290 in Compiz "Allow enhanced zoom to follow text." [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/72729015:46
ali1234"im progress" lol15:47
TheOpenSourcererlol: https://github.com/philipl/pifs/blob/master/README.md15:47
ali1234if anyone is really working on that i will be extremely surprised15:47
ali1234so, what API did you have to use?15:48
MartijnVdSTheOpenSourcerer: brilliant :)15:48
ali1234ah, it's GObject? good....15:50
AlanBellali1234: it uses at-spi to get the offset of the text in the text field, then pans to that location15:50
ali1234and C too, even better15:52
AlanBellyup, compiz plugin15:52
AlanBellali1234: https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/compiz/texttracking/+merge/11171015:53
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
andylockrancd hey guys15:56
andylockranaddress has dropped off the internet15:56
diddledanhey: no such file or directory15:56
andylockranwouldn't normally be an issue - but a clients website was on it15:56
mgdmandylockran: what's that got to do with ubuntu-uk...?15:57
popeywrong channel methinks15:57
diddledantheplanet.com internet services own the netblock - interesting name15:58
dwatkinsHack the planet!15:58
dwatkins*ahem* excuse me15:58
diddledanthat actually works15:58
* daftykins portscans dwatkins' gibson15:58
diddledanI never knew15:58
mgdmwhy wouldn't it?15:59
dwatkinsThey used nmap in the film The Matrix.15:59
diddledanI'm betting they used that name because steve gibson used to be popular15:59
dwatkinsI think they changed the IP addresses to have numbers >255, though15:59
diddledanargh @ sirens blaring at me16:00
mgdmI doubt it has anything to do with steve gibson16:00
diddledanI really should come up with a better alert tone than an airraid siren16:00
mgdmWilliam Gibson, however16:00
mgdmSteve Gibson was that entertaining guy who used to bang on about writing all his apps in assembler, right?16:00
mgdmand had a port scanning tool of some sort?16:00
diddledanI love the fact that the director made the decision to not use cgi because it wasn't realistic enough16:01
diddledanmgdm: yeah, grc.com16:01
mgdmyeah. It's not named after him. :-)16:01
diddledanapparently all the "handles" that the joey character suggests naming his online persona were aliases actual hackers had used in the era it was filmed. like "master of disaster" (the only one I remember off the top of my head)16:04
ali1234i don't remember any of this stuff happening in the matrix16:05
diddledanali1234: wrong movie16:06
ali1234ip addresses > 255 was the net16:06
ali1234the matrix was very obviously full of cgi16:06
ali1234so i'm really confused now16:07
diddledanali1234: the non-cgi was hackers16:07
ali1234never seen it16:08
mgdmI'd not bother16:08
hamitronit is worth 1 viewing ;)16:09
ali1234johnny lee miller is in it right?16:09
diddledanand angelina with her jolies16:09
GentileBenI bet you'd like to diddle her jolies, diddledan.16:10
diddledanrandom link time16:13
* hamitron had email about it already16:13
GentileBenWhy choose Ouya over Nvidia's Shield?16:14
ali1234argh.... who broke rhythmbox?16:17
diddledanGentileBen: I thought the shield was a handheld?16:17
ali1234yeah it is16:18
diddledanthen that would be a reason to choose ouya over the shield16:18
directhexhackers is the greatest drunken movie in history16:27
awilkinsAs in the actors are drunk or it's fun to watch it drunk?16:28
penguin42is Key lime pie always disappointing or did I just have a bland one?16:29
awilkinsI actually liked the utter unrealism of how the hacking was portrayed16:29
awilkinspenguin42, Key Lime pie is lovely with a good filling and a nice spicy ginger biscuit base IMHO16:29
penguin42awilkins: Hmm the base of this was a nice pastry base, but not gingery - the filling was creamy but nothing more16:30
daftykinspenguin42: i had one down in Key West, where it originates (so i understand) - it wasn't all that special16:30
directhexawilkins, it's an excellent drinking game16:31
directhexawilkins, best done with 95% rubbing alcohol, whenever anyone does something unrealistic take a chug16:31
penguin42daftykins: This one was from http://www.slattery.co.uk/ - so a Mancunian Key Lime Pie16:32
awilkinsdirecthex, I thought the hacking stuff was nowhere near real but did actually convey the spirit and excitement of that kind of thing16:32
* penguin42 finds the worrying thing with Person Of Interest now, after the Snowdon stuff is that the bit that seems most unreal is the worry by the spooks of if they're caught16:33
awilkinsdirecthex, Artistic license probably better than watching an nmap session16:33
mungbeanBritish spy agency GCHQ set up fake LinkedIn and Slashdot pages to plant malware within Belgacom, a Belgian telecommunications company. Using a method called "quantum insert," the GCHQ was reportedly able to preempt legitimate access to the websites, redirecting the employees to fake sites that compromised their computers.16:33
directhexmungbean, i feel far more terrorised by GCHQ than by people in silly hedgear16:34
mungbeanbut sounds cool though16:35
diddledanquantum insert?16:36
penguin42diddledan: Bend over, we need to check your....16:37
diddledansoon we'll have omega bypass16:37
diddledannot to be confused with a heart surgery16:37
diddledanor maybe it is16:37
mungbeanhe technique is an aspect of a larger strategy used by the GCHQ as well as the NSA to place a system of “secret servers, codenamed Quantum, at key places on the Internet backbone,16:38
bashrcHasn't GCHQ got better things to do than to muck around with linkedin?16:39
mungbeanThis placement ensures that they can react faster than other websites can. By exploiting that speed difference, these servers can impersonate a visited website to the target before the legitimate website can respond, thereby tricking the target’s browser to visit a Foxacid (sic) server.”16:39
mungbeanbashrc: its not linkedin , its to drop malware onto pcs16:39
diddledanwait, they're relying on timing for their attack?16:39
bashrcdoes that mean that all the "terroists" have linkedin profiles highlighing their various plots16:40
SuperMattsure, why not?16:41
penguin42diddledan: apparently so - by putting machines somewhere that gets to respond prior to the real server; which makes me wonder if criminals are doing the same thing by doing DoS attacks16:41
mungbeani want to work for gchq now16:42
diddledanbashrc: I talk about my own explosive activities on facebook. and sometimes on irc when the situation calls. my bowels have celebrity status16:42
diddledanand this is why service providers should limit the ip addresses that they respond to and route to only those on their own networks16:43
penguin42diddledan: Well that doesn't help - gchq isn't going to be behind a normal ISP - they'll just be plugged into LINX or the like16:44
bashrcso they're phishing?16:45
diddledanpenguin42: it still works on linx level - they know the ip addresses of all their peers so they can refuse to accept packages the magically appear out of nowhere or don't have an ip in the whitelist16:45
diddledanthat way when a black box responds using linkedin's ip address linx know that it's fake16:46
penguin42diddledan: hmm I'm not sure they know the address of all the peers - stuff can route via pretty odd routes can't it?16:47
diddledanthey only need to know the immediate 1-level upstream ip addresses. if it goes via a weird route to get to that peer(s) it doesn't matter because the peer will supplant it's own ip in the reply-to field16:48
diddledanof course I'm verging on stuff I know little about here16:49
diddledanthe solution really though would be to use ssl16:54
SuperMattunless GCHQ has access to private keys16:54
SuperMattI'm sure it's super easy for them to ask for private keys16:55
SuperMattsure sure16:56
SuperMattbut if they have a court order to hand over private certs, they don't need drink or hacking16:56
penguin42SuperMatt: Right, but you have to use SSL for *everything* - even just browsing some random news site like /.16:57
diddledanI like how in the uk we're obliged to hand over a key to anything they think is encrypted. that includes things that aren't and therefore those which you don't have a key. it's a criminal offence not to hand over the key.16:57
bashrcdoes it have to be the right key?16:58
diddledanbashrc: it has to decrypt the content16:58
diddledanI'm not sure if truecrypt's plausible deniability volume within a volume would be sufficient for them to believe they've decrypted "the content"16:59
diddledanthe problem is they don't need to prove something is encrypted for them to require you to hand over "the key"17:00
diddledanand losing the key isn't a valid defence17:00
diddledannor is not actually possessing the key17:01
bashrccould you swallow the key?17:01
diddledanyes, but you have to hand it over at some point17:01
diddledanif you don't hand over the key they put you in prison17:01
bashrcactually, it's not the court orders which concern me, it's the mass surveillance without suspicion17:02
ali1234make it 100 levels nested deep17:02
ali1234every time they ask for the key for the next level fight it to the maximum extent possible17:02
diddledanthe point is there is no fighting allowed17:03
ali1234they have to ask you for the key17:03
diddledanyou are required to hand it over or you go to prison17:03
diddledansimple as17:03
ali1234that's not true17:03
diddledanyeah they ask you, you say no, they arrest you17:03
ali1234they have to ask you to give them the key17:03
ali1234they ask you, you give them the key, they decrypt another encrypted volume, they ask for the next key, etc17:04
ali1234just make sure there's enough keys that they have to keep asking you for the next one forever17:04
diddledanand how do you remember where all these keys are along with their passwords?17:09
diddledanthe moment you forget one they arrest you17:10
ali1234use a deterministic random number generator17:15
penguin42yes, it's encrypted with pi17:21
diddledannono, pi^217:29
diddledanless obvious17:29
awilkinsUI straight out of the 90s17:36
awilkinsReminds of Amiga17:36
AlanBellhmm, maybe a focus on visual design isn't *all* bad17:36
penguin42popey: Oh that's a bit grim17:37
* penguin42 would point out this isn't the default KDE style!17:38
ali1234awilkins: amiga looked nothing like that :(17:38
penguin42more orange and blue wasn't it?17:39
ali1234it did look a bit like that if you installed MUI17:39
ali1234also, that *is* the default KDE iconset, which is horrible17:39
ali1234and quite possibly the default plasma theme17:40
awilkinsali1234, You could style the Amiga UI how you liked and a lot of them were like that... also reminds me of all the Copper gradient effects that Amiga things used17:40
ali1234also ironically qtcurve is the only qt theme flexible enough to do a passing imitation of the nicer gtk themes17:40
ali1234nasty gradient are a staple of KDE design though17:41
ali1234KDE should totally copy the new flat-everything style17:41
* AlanBell thinks everything should be textured and 3d and rotatably so17:42
* penguin42 bets there's a desktop effect for that somewhere17:47
diddledandon't you hate receiving almost a dozen emails telling you to be ready for a work-related email blackout on a non-workday17:50
diddledanand they just sent me another one17:51
diddledanthankyou government for insisting that we use not-email for email communications17:52
diddledanI'd prefer it if they just encrypted using pgp or s/mime17:53
diddledanthat way I can keep it in my own inbox17:53
daftykinsdiddledan: could be worse, they could blanket bomb everyone with net sends :(17:59
daftykins(windows network, at my old College of further ed.)17:59
daftykinsdiddledan: i got a formal disciplinary as a student back in ~2003 for replying with a net send asking them to stop sending so many :(18:01
diddledanwtf?! that really sucks18:01
mgdmMy memory of them is that they all just disappeared when I hit space as I was usually typing at the time18:02
daftykinsdiddledan: hehe, i kinda asked for it18:02
daftykinsmgdm: haha yeah18:02
daftykinsthat's my biggest issue with Windows actually - active window theft18:02
AlanBellI got in trouble for doing something similar on CP/M devices RM 380Z or something18:03
daftykinsi get extremely frustrated when something steals focus18:03
AlanBellcan't remember the exact command, but I did a "something wonderful has happened, your computer has come alive" to every terminal18:03
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|EOD
AlanBellthink I had to write an essay on hacking as a punishment18:04
MartijnVdSI wrote a 3-line BASIC program that printed "This computer is broken" in an infinite loop with a rainbow of colours once18:06
MartijnVdSat a school I was considering going to18:06
MartijnVdSthen they freaked out and claimed I broke it. Then I pressed the reset button.18:06
daftykinsMartijnVdS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OR2NDfxrmE18:07
=== schwuk is now known as schwuk_away
MartijnVdSdaftykins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASICODE18:09
diddledanMartijnVdS: that's quite interestinbg18:30
bigcalmGood morning peeps :)18:51
bigcalmMy mum would like a spreadsheet app for her iPad. Any recommendations?18:52
MartijnVdSgoogle docs?18:52
bigcalmI'm guessing she wants an app rather than a web interface18:52
diddledanbigcalm: there's apple's numbers or googley drive or microsoft's office18:53
bigcalmNeeds to be useable off-line18:53
bigcalmdiddledan: is Apple's Numbers an app that can be used offline?18:54
diddledanit's an app. whether it can be used offline or not I don't now18:55
bigcalmOkay, ta18:55
bigcalmpopey: ping18:55
TheOpenSourcererGoogle Drive works offline. On Android at any rate. *But*  I find spreadsheets  rather hard to use on a tablet in general.18:56
diddledanhttps://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/numbers/id361304891?mt=8 <-- that's numbers18:57
bigcalmdiddledan: thanks18:58
TheOpenSourcererWho was saying they like Naga chillies earlier... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqQYvT98kvI&feature=youtu.be19:00
MartijnVdSTheOpenSourcerer: uh.. you?19:00
TheOpenSourcererThis is the home of the Dorset Naga - They grew one plant for a competition to see how many ripe pods they could get from one plant...19:00
TheOpenSourcererThe answer was totally insane19:00
bigcalmThanks for the suggestions guys19:05
daftykinsat the end of the vid: "you haven't miss read"19:13
daftykinswhat's Miss Read got to do with this :(19:13
TheOpenSourcererThey're farmers.19:13
MartijnVdSdaftykins: "You must be Miss Reading"19:13
daftykinswhat's the deal with the green ones though, were they counted or not 0o19:14
TheOpenSourcererNope - ripe only19:14
daftykinsare all green chilis unripe?19:16
TheOpenSourcererThat's a good question. Not sure but probably not.19:16
TheOpenSourcererI bet there are some that ripen to green...19:16
daftykinsmust be why they both appear in cooking :D19:17
TheOpenSourcererThere are a *lot* of colour varieties now.19:17
TheOpenSourcererRed, brown, peach, mustard, purple, pink with stripes, yellow,19:17
TheOpenSourcererdaftykins: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlanLord/posts/5NKzMQMyfpT19:20
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
daftykinsthey look like little spice grenades :)19:21
TheOpenSourcererI'm looking for the pink tiger photo. It's in a private group on FB.19:21
daftykinskinda funky shapes though19:21
popeybigcalm: pong19:22
davmor2TheOpenSourcerer: don't want to be rubbing your eyes after handling them though right :D19:23
TheOpenSourcererdavmor2: It's ok until you cut them open19:23
TheOpenSourcererI made the mistake of crumbling up 1/2 a Jay's Peach Ghost Scorpion for lunch today - my hand has been on fire ever seince.19:24
davmor2I know, except for some that you dip in whole :)19:24
davmor2TheOpenSourcerer: haha19:24
bigcalmpopey: my mum needs an iPad app to manipulate spreadsheets. Do you use one, can you recommend one?19:25
popeyi do not19:26
bigcalmOkay, ta :)19:26
davmor2bigcalm: don't get the mini if it is spreadsheets19:28
bigcalmThis is for an iPad 2 that she already has19:28
davmor2bigcalm: sorry I missed the app bit19:29
TheOpenSourcererdaftykins: Can you see this? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202952042581136&set=gm.542043479211336&type=119:39
daftykinsyes sir-ee19:39
daftykinswow that's multi-coloured19:39
daftykinsdon't think i'd trust it :D19:40
TheOpenSourcererPink Tiger. A new variety variety not yet really stable.19:40
daftykinsIntroducing the Humble Store D:20:19
directhexdaftykins, there's been an unofficial humble store for ages20:24
directhexdaftykins, individual game devs can include a humble widget on their sites, to sell the game via humble's infrastructure. so someone made a page which just shows every possible humble widget20:25
daftykinsah well, never even buy them really. i know only too well the allure of game collection without actual play ;)20:25
ali1234it's getting to the point where it's just the same games over and over now20:27
ali1234X4 is coming out next week20:31
ali1234the linux version will probably be out some time in a couple of years, lol20:31
directhexali1234, X is a complicated one. tl;dr: blame the corpse of Linux Game Publishing20:38
MartijnVdSali1234: what, when it's up to X11?20:38
directhexali1234, bear in mind X 4 has the same publisher as Metro Last Light, and that egosoft just did their own X3 port (replacing the useless LGP port)20:40
directhexi.e. i wouldn't expect to be waiting years20:40
ali1234yeah they reckon it will be "soon" (maybe, my german is bad)20:41
dogmatic69After an update, after power down/up all apps are restored \o/20:41
ali1234X3 was fun until the end game, then it's just lots of waiting20:42
ali1234it turns into cookie clicker in space...20:44
ali1234but you still get many hours of gameplay before that20:44
popeymmmm.. delcious cheesecake21:06
popeyon a childs plate21:06
daftykinspopey: :D New York?21:12
penguin42what makes a cheesecake New York style?21:36
ali1234baked/not baked21:42
ali1234don't remember which21:42
ali1234popey's looks not baked21:42
popeyit was delicious21:47
* popey hugs Co-Op21:47
daftykinsany of you caught this Inspector Montalbano series? it's great :D22:11
daftykinssaw my parents watching an episode whilst i was over the other night22:12
daftykinsItalian subtitled series, but really good fun, some great humour in it22:12
* popey is busy playing CAH online ☻22:14
popeynever heard of that22:14
daftykinsthere's some season 8 on the iPlayer i believe22:15
popeyCards Against Humanity22:18
daftykinshmm, not familiar with22:26
mgdmit's entertaining22:27
mgdmI have a dead-tree set but haven't played yet though :(22:27
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
bigcalmdaftykins: my parents watch it. I tried but found the action too quick to be comfortable with subtitles23:03
bigcalmmgdm: then you should attend an oggcamp ;)23:04
daftykins*nod* i rewind a bit :)23:04
bigcalmmgdm: Steph brought his sets with him to phpnw13. You could do the same next year ;)23:04
* bigcalm goes back to optimising a database (this is tedious)23:05
mgdmbigcalm: I bought mine in the bar while playing23:06
bigcalmmgdm: Actually, you were in the same game as me at phpnw13. My memory is shoddy23:06
mgdmbigcalm: how's the DB?23:12
bigcalmmgdm: the problems we saw on Friday disappeared without us doing anything. I think that the users were hammering F5 when the sight didn't respond, which compounded the issue.23:13
bigcalmmgdm: the improvement work I'm doing now is partly to help prevent that in the future23:14
mgdmah yes23:14
bigcalmOr at least make it less likely to suffer so badly23:15
bigcalmI look forward to the day that the client says "rebuild it from scratch in the framework of our choice"23:16
mgdmhow are you going about it? (being nosey now I realise)23:16
bigcalmWhich isn't as unlikely as it sounds23:16
mgdmrebuilds aren't ever the magic solution people think they are :-)23:16
bigcalmmgdm: starting by adding indexes to all FKs23:16
mgdmoh. very basic stuff then23:17
bigcalmmgdm: the site is currently in CakePHP 1.1 and horrible horrible mess23:17
bigcalmmgdm: it's a start23:17
mgdmis this something you took over?23:17
mgdmcool, so I can slate it then without too much offence? :D23:17
bigcalmAt least 3 different sets of devs have worked on this over the years. Each with their own way of miss-using the framework23:17
bigcalmAh crap. I'm trying to run an alter table modify column on a column that the db thinks isn't in the table23:20
bigcalmAnd it's not a spelling mistake23:20
bigcalmI had apartment_id twice23:23
bigcalmOdd error message for that23:23
mgdmyou're changing the column type?23:23
bigcalmStandardising everything as much as I can23:24
bigcalmNext to grep the codebase for "where" (yes, everything is raw sql queries) and put indexes on those columns23:29
BigRedSbigcalm: probably easier to just check the slow query log?23:31
BigRedSno point modifying/debugging SQL that's only called once a fortnight and lasts four ms a go23:31
bigcalmBigRedS: that's the next step, yes23:32
bigcalmLogging slow queries and trying to comprehend the output of explain23:33
bigcalmThen it'll be on to profiling the project23:34
bigcalmWhat's the profiler of choice for PHP these days?23:34
AlanBellbigcalm: I have used xhprof and got a result from it23:40
AlanBellhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/callgraphs/test1.png shows you critical path stuff like this23:41
bigcalmAlanBell: thanks. Easy to set-up?23:41
AlanBellfairly easy23:42
AlanBellthe hard part was doing something useful with the output23:42
AlanBellyou find out that stuff that sanitises small strings and gets called a *lot* is really quite important23:43
AlanBellbut mostly what I found out is that all code is fast, you can safely ignore it. Anything in the slow query log needs indexing until it shuts up23:44

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!