[00:09] <RaycisCharles> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateapokaiwhenuakitanatahu
[00:29] <penguin42> .who
[00:30] <diddledan> .me
[00:30] <diddledan> wait
[00:30] <diddledan> what?
[00:30] <penguin42> where?
[00:31] <AlanBell> when?
[00:32] <diddledan> oh why
[00:32] <penguin42> AlanBell: Why have all the eggs in your G+ picture got small holes/dimples in
[00:35] <AlanBell> I have a little tool for poking holes in them, it lets the steam out of the bubble of air that sits on the fat end of the egg
[00:35] <AlanBell> stops them cracking while they boil
[00:35] <penguin42> well, there you go
[00:35] <AlanBell> the thing that they are sitting in is a water bath boiler
[00:35] <AlanBell> basically steam cooks them
[00:36] <penguin42> is this good?
[00:37] <AlanBell> well it can do boiled eggs to various consistencies, so if you want the yolk to be a tiny little bit runny in the centre then I can do that
[00:40] <penguin42> hmm ok
[00:40]  * penguin42 guesses AlanBell must eat a lot of eggs
[00:40] <diddledan> eggs++
[00:41] <AlanBell> not masses, production is very low at the moment
[08:25] <Myrtti> meh.
[08:27] <MooDoo> that good eh Myrtti
[08:27] <Myrtti> yeah.
[08:27] <MooDoo> hugs
[08:28] <Myrtti> I flashed the Galaxy Nexus I have my Finnish sim in with Ubuntu Touch last week, woke up to my bluetooth speaker going all rattattatta, saw a tiny flash of something and it was gone on the phone
[08:28] <Myrtti> spent some few minutes wondering where the hell the call log was (popey told me) - turns out it was of course
[08:28] <Myrtti> a telemarketer.
[08:29] <MooDoo> sigh
[08:29] <ali1234> popey is going to be busy when they release that thing for real
[08:29] <Myrtti> and I was getting all panicky about it being a phone call from a hospital that my sisters house had burnt down or something
[08:29] <Myrtti> (I rarely get any phonecalls)
[08:31] <directhex> saucy upgrade time.
[08:32] <ali1234> has anyone tried KDE connect?
[08:32] <ali1234> i kinda want to use their backend to run an indicator
[08:33] <shauno> I might be 8 years out of date, but .. they spelt it with a C?
[08:33] <ali1234> KDE is all like, business-y now
[08:33] <ali1234> which means they had to stop using K everywhere
[08:34] <shauno> that's just wrong
[08:34] <ali1234> also, Konnect was probably already taken
[08:35] <ali1234> http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=16663
[08:35] <ali1234> anywhoooo
[08:39] <TheOpenSourcerer> Morning earthlings
[08:40] <popey> Pip pip
[08:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> Nice curry on Saturday?
[08:41] <popey> Very!
[08:41] <popey> I had a 'special' which had chicken pieces in a sauce mostly made of minced lamb. Was very nice
[08:42] <popey> lots of red wine etc
[08:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> Not been to We. Been to the little Thai place on the corner which was nice recently.
[08:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> Claire driving then ;-)
[08:42] <popey> no, one of the other mums came and picked us up!
[08:42] <popey> then taxi back
[08:42] <popey> \o/
[08:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> Cool.
[08:48]  * AlanBell had a naga chicken curry on saturday
[08:48] <MooDoo> yum
[08:48] <AlanBell> it was very yum
[08:48] <MooDoo> I love naga chillies
[08:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> Me too :-)
[08:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> AlanBell: Thing 1 has a weird inset day today. He's going in for 1 class from 9 - 9:50 then I need to pick him up... So will be at home today.
[08:49] <DJones> I always think of Naga as being snake related
[08:49] <AlanBell> TheOpenSourcerer: ok, I will plug raspberry pi things into your monitor :)
[08:50] <AlanBell> DJones: lots of chillies have fearsome names like that
[08:50] <DJones> Heh, yeah I've noticed that trend
[08:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> I don't know how people who work in "normal" jobs (9-5) manage.
[08:51]  * TheOpenSourcerer grew Naga Viper this year - An awesomely hot chilli
[08:56] <diplo> Morning all
[09:02] <diplo> TheOpenSourcerer: I have similar issues, I work through my lunches to cover the weird times that school seem to be imposing just so I have 'flex' time
[09:02] <diplo> Even though my company doesn't offer flexi time
[09:13] <DJones> AlanBell: Have you seen this http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/11/personal_web_and_mail_server_for_raspberry_pi_seeks_cash/
[09:15] <mungbean> diplo: there's 2 types of flexi time though
[09:16] <mungbean> "flexible working hours" and "i'll be in late this morning guys but i'll work a bit late too"
[09:17] <AlanBell> and "I am off to lunch, might not be back"
[09:18] <diplo> yeah, pretty much the latter one for me.
[09:18] <ali1234> what about "i'll be in later" - shows up at 4.55pm, starts meeting (reserved for management)
[09:20] <BigRedS> DJones: that looks like a problem that's already been repeatedly solved with differing degrees of completeness
[09:20] <directhex> ok, saucy.
[09:22] <shauno> running a mailserver on a pi does not sound fun :/
[09:23] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Origami Day! :-D
[09:24] <AlanBell> DJones: interesting, I can't quite see the attraction of a non-diy solution when you are using a pi as the platform
[09:24] <BigRedS> shauno: if you can find a static IP address to plug it into then it should be fine
[09:24] <BigRedS> aside from mail generally not being fun :)
[09:25] <shauno> a static ip that has sane rdns and isn't blocked by half the planet simply for being a residential line
[09:28] <DJones> Urgh, it comes to something when you have to go to work for a rest
[09:31] <dwatkins> If that Raspberry Pi installation DJones mentioned runs an open proxy, most IRC networks won't allow you on from it.
[09:31] <ali1234> why would you be irc'ing from your web/email server?
[09:31] <ali1234> (please ignore the fact that I do this)
[09:32] <dwatkins> ali1234: as do I :)
[09:32] <mungbean> why would you be running an open proxy?
[09:33] <dwatkins> mungbean: I wouldn't (mine is only open to specific IP addresses)
[09:33] <ali1234> i think the point here is, nobody is going to have a raspberry pi hosted in a datacentre, it will be in their house. therefore there's no benefit to IRC'ing from it
[09:34] <AlanBell> I consider it good practice to IRC from your most important production machine
[09:34] <ali1234> it does mean that i know instantly if there's a problem
[09:34] <shauno> ^ this.  best uptime monitor there is
[09:34] <AlanBell> (I am not as it happens)
[09:34] <dwatkins> ali1234: if someone doesn't have a hosted server, but they do run a Pi at home that's always on, they might use it as an IRC server/bouncer
[09:34] <ali1234> ah, i don't actually use a bouncer
[09:34] <dwatkins> I use irssi in a screen session, but I know people who use bouncers.
[09:34] <ali1234> i use ssh socks proxy purely to avoid firewalls
[09:35] <ali1234> i actually just run pidgin on my desktop through it
[09:35] <dwatkins> Yeah, that's also useful, as it having an external machine I can shell to to do hostname lookups from the outside.
[09:35] <dwatkins> There are also web-based IRC clients, of course, but for that you may as well use mibbit, I guess.
[09:36] <shauno> I think if he really wants to wrest control from google, he'd be better served trying to create a webmail client that can at least match it
[09:36] <ali1234> yes, absolutely
[09:36] <ali1234> or a native one for that matter
[09:36] <dwatkins> There are already a number of solutions for that sort of thing, but I guess he's bringing them toether in a preconfigured image.
[09:36] <shauno> along with the search / spam control behind it that actually works
[09:37] <dwatkins> gmail's spam control seems to be pretty effective
[09:37] <ali1234> it's damn near bulletproof
[09:37] <shauno> right, which is why he'd need to come anywhere close to it
[09:37] <ali1234> i don't even care about hiding my email address from spammers
[09:37] <shauno> sticking it on a pi rates high on the trendy factor, but doesn't actually answer why people are using google in the first place
[09:38]  * dwatkins ponders getting a flu jab
[09:39] <dwatkins> My Raspberry Pi does one thing, and it does it very well. If I want to quickly check something is registered correctly in DNS from another machine, it's also useful, but I prefer the idea of having discrete devices for simple tasks.
[09:39] <mungbean> anecdotally i've heard of a lot of people getting a cold for 5 days after the4 flu jab
[09:39] <dwatkins> (granted, that one thing involves a number of components, but it's not running at 100% CPU usage all day long)
[09:39] <ali1234> dwatkins: no, you're supposed to want a single device that does everything, in mobile form factor
[09:39] <dwatkins> mungbean: yeah, I was told it's not worth the potential risk if you're not already at risk.
[09:40] <dwatkins> ali1234: but I have a laptop for that ;)
[09:40] <ali1234> mobile phone
[09:40] <dwatkins> ah yes, the Edge
[09:40] <dwatkins> My phone gets hot enough listening to the radio.
[09:40] <ali1234> which reminds me of what i was doing an hour ago
[09:42] <shauno> my little mifi lives at work.  comes in handy for things like poking dns externally, wasting 7hrs55m a day on reddit, etc
[09:43] <mungbean> gnome system monitor takes 20% of CPU , doesn't that rather skew the results ?
[09:43] <dwatkins> I think I have my reddit traffic proxied via home, it's a while since I set foxyproxy up.
[09:43] <ali1234> yes, yes it does
[09:43] <dwatkins> mungbean: indeed, as with most task manager type apps
[09:43] <mungbean> why so intensive ?
[09:43] <ali1234> it's all those svg graphs, they are rendered as vector curves
[09:43] <mungbean> its not hard to make a lightweight cpu monitior?
[09:43] <ali1234> if you have 4x CPU, it uses 4x as much CPU to render
[09:44] <dwatkins> xload :D
[09:44] <shauno> I eventually gave up fighting with proxies at work.  seems the easiest way to obey the network rules, is to not use their network
[09:44] <MartijnVdS> that, + a 4G mifi = win :)
[09:45] <shauno> I live in 1987land, I'm happy 3g works
[09:45] <dwatkins> I was hesitant to get a phone without a numberpad.
[09:46] <MartijnVdS> shauno: 1987land?
[09:46] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: ♥ my nexus 5
[09:47] <dwatkins> MartijnVdS: I have an HTC Desire HD ;)
[09:47] <dwatkins> my they have big screens
[09:47] <MartijnVdS> yeah, but not quite "Note"-esque
[09:47] <shauno> "all the better to see you with"?
[09:47] <MartijnVdS> shauno: that's cameras
[09:47] <dwatkins> I don't think I have big enough pockets for modern phones.
[09:49] <MartijnVdS> yeah, that's starting to become a problem
[09:50] <dwatkins> this is my favourite solution to modern phones not having a keypad: http://static.freeware4android.net/data/programs/images/Rotary-Dialer-Android_1_28612.png
[09:50] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: does it also make the noises?
[09:51] <shauno> dwatkins: surely https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/8929 ?
[09:51] <dwatkins> MartijnVdS: yeah, that's what I use it for (or one of these)
[09:51] <dwatkins> shauno: I have one of those at home ;)
[09:51] <dwatkins> oh, not the portable one
[09:51] <shauno> but this one's bluetooth so you can throw it in your manbag with your tabletphone :
[09:52] <dwatkins> I do have a wireless bluetooth thing that looks like a handset from a rotary phone, and an actual 1950s GPO telephone, though
[09:52] <dwatkins> nice, shauno
[09:52] <shauno> yeah I've seen a few of those.  cabled 'n all.  sticking the dialer in there is a neat trick through
[09:53] <shauno> my main problem with touchscreens is that they're near-useless in the rain.  novelty apps become just as frustrating at that point
[09:58] <dwatkins> also useless for the blind, or near-as, I assume
[09:58] <AlanBell> not at all
[09:59] <AlanBell> loads of blind people have iphones
[09:59] <dwatkins> I guess the voice feedback might be handy
[09:59] <AlanBell> it is absolute positioning, so something in the top left, is in the top left
[10:00] <AlanBell> with a mouse that doesn't work if you don't know where the pointer is starting from
[10:02] <shauno> I gotta say, fanboy aside, apple seem to have the hang of accessibility
[10:02] <dwatkins> I was very impressed with the quality of the text-to-speech voice on my Mac.
[10:03] <AlanBell> gnome 2 was getting quite good
[10:03] <dwatkins> ...and then unity ;)
[10:03] <AlanBell> indeed
[10:04] <AlanBell> or a general focus on visual design at all costs
[10:04] <dwatkins> I'm confused by the current debate about Mir versus its rival, but need to read-up on it to know more.
[10:04] <dwatkins> I was upset you couldn't move the taskbar.
[10:04] <AlanBell> visual design :)
[10:04] <dwatkins> I assume it's all related to Ubuntu phone somehow.
[10:04] <shauno> I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention, but that debate appears to be more politics than anything else
[10:05] <dwatkins> shauno: yeah, I think I'd rather just switch to Gnome 3.
[10:05] <bashrc> I think they call it the unity bar, and I think the idea is that it's always supposed to be in a consistent place across devices
[10:05] <bashrc> regardless of user preferences
[10:05] <shauno> well, I mean mir vs wayland vs X vs whatever else
[10:05] <AlanBell> Wayland vs Mir is an odd thing, everyone has an opinion, but there has been practically no information that end users understand to give an informed opinion
[10:06] <shauno> everything I've heard so far sounds like parents bickering at a beauty pageant for 4yos
[10:06] <dwatkins> indeed, I agree X is old and crusty, but I gather there have been certain decisions surrounding Mir which were made without involving the community.
[10:06] <dwatkins> So Wayland sounds to me like the better option because it's actually been made with collaboration, but I might be missing something.
[10:06] <bashrc> with Mir vs Wayland I think the main beef was just duplication of effort.  It would have been nice if everyone was pulling in the same direction
[10:07] <dwatkins> As for the unity bar, bashrc - I can see the point, but when I have two monitors, I don't want it cluttering up the middle, I just want to be able to change stuff.
[10:07] <AlanBell> which one gets me wobbly windows?
[10:07] <AlanBell> or a cube of desktops?
[10:07] <dwatkins> ali1234: that's one of the reasons I want Gnome 3 ;)
[10:07] <dwatkins> and that's the other ;)
[10:07] <Laney> I used to love drawing fire on the screen
[10:08] <dwatkins> simple little things...
[10:08] <Laney> happy days
[10:08] <AlanBell> fire on the screen is cool too, I like the stars that orbit the mouse
[10:08] <AlanBell> but neither the wayland people or the Mir people say anything about bling
[10:08] <ali1234> wat
[10:09] <shauno> you've just made a pretty good case against displays in general
[10:09] <AlanBell> it is all about rendering flat windows onto a flat screen
[10:09] <AlanBell> where is my 3d desktop that was in Jurassic Park?
[10:09] <ali1234> "hmm we need to render some 2d rectangles onto a 2d display. i know, let's use incredibly expensive hardware designed for rendering 3d graphics."
[10:10] <dwatkins> AlanBell: http://fsv.sourceforge.net/
[10:10] <AlanBell> the 3d hardware is incredibly fast, so it is a good thing to use it
[10:11] <dwatkins> I used to run the app they used in Jurassic Park on an Indy, it was hilarious
[10:11] <dwatkins> FSV is a port of the IRIX app they used in the film.
[10:11] <AlanBell> yup
[10:11] <ali1234> AlanBell: the thing is, it's not
[10:11] <ali1234> the 3d hardware only wins if you are doing animation, effects, transparency
[10:11] <dwatkins> nostalgia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaRHU1XxMJQ
[10:11] <shauno> I'm not sure "use it because it's there" is always a good thing.  eg, I have a battery.  I believe they're expecting Mir to show up in ubuntu phone too
[10:12] <ali1234> if you are doing simple windowing, painter's algorithm and dirty rectangles on the CPU absoluely blows away anything you can do with a GPU
[10:12] <AlanBell> ali1234: yes, so using it and then having a flat desktop with no animation, effects or transparency is a bit of a waste
[10:13] <ali1234> yes
[10:13] <dwatkins> I agree effects are a waste, but it makes dealing with some boring applications just that little bit more fun.
[10:13] <ali1234> another way of looking at it is that if you don't need effects, not using the GPU will give you a better experience, if you are using a desktop that supports that
[10:13] <dwatkins> that reminds me, I need to renew my parking permit
[10:13] <AlanBell> they are not saying "this will fix window shadows and make them awsome" or even the top bar shadow, or some cool thing with the dash or launcher
[10:14] <dwatkins> I thought Mir was all about rewriting the graphical stack to be all modern and portable to phones.
[10:14] <bashrc> yes, I think that's the idea
[10:15] <AlanBell> yup, with server allocated buffers which is apparently a good thing for small arm devices
[10:15] <AlanBell> but I am not sure why I should care
[10:15] <ali1234> dwatkins: it is. unfortunately the modern ideas on how to do graphics = "you must have lots of animation, and you must use the GPU"
[10:16] <shauno> I do think it's part of why linux can't even spell power management on my laptop :/
[10:18] <popey> shauno: mir is already in ubuntu phone
[10:19] <Myrtti> Leapmotion is in Amazon offers of the day at 11
[10:19] <Myrtti> if anyone is interested
[10:19] <mungbean> hwo much?
[10:19] <Myrtti> dunno yet
[10:19] <Myrtti> it's 69 now
[10:19] <bashrc> I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with making use of the GPU - so long as it's not vendor specific
[10:20] <Myrtti> well, 70
[10:21] <shauno> I just don't trust linux desktops to do it well, unfortunately.  my laptop gets 8-9 hours under OSX, ~4 hours under XP, and about 90 minutes with ubuntu 12.04.  something is horribly wrong.
[10:22] <AlanBell> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/09/leap-motion-desktop-control-on-linu that is kinda cool
[10:28] <mungbean> hp chromebooks are cheapycheap
[10:30] <andylockran> hey guys - what's the best way to setup a port forward on a linux box?
[10:30] <andylockran> i.e. I've got a box setup as a dmz, but i'd like to forward just for 1194 to a different machine?
[10:31] <AlanBell> how permanent do you want it, and do you want encryption on the link between the dmz box and the other machine?
[10:32] <AlanBell> iptables is one answer, ssh -L is the other answer
[10:32] <SuperMatt> shorewall aint too shabby neither
[10:32] <SuperMatt> does ufw do port forwarding?
[10:33] <AlanBell> they are all frontends to iptables I think?
[10:33] <SuperMatt> yup
[10:37] <shauno> I don't think ufw does forwarding.  just allow/deny/limit
[10:37] <andylockran> hey Alan, I want a permanent solution
[10:37] <SuperMatt> you may be right
[10:37] <andylockran> I'd normally do an SSH tunnel
[10:37] <SuperMatt> andylockran: you're going to want to look at shorewall then
[10:37] <andylockran> I've got ufw setup.
[10:37] <SuperMatt> I'd switch to shorewall
[10:37] <SuperMatt> UFW doesn't do what you need it to do
[10:37] <SuperMatt> http://www.shorewall.net/FAQ.htm#PortForwarding
[10:38] <andylockran> can I edit /etc/ufw/before.rules to add a forward using iptables syntax?
[10:39] <SuperMatt> oooh, good question
[10:39] <shauno> I was just writing something like that, yeah.  you can add iptables rules to before.rules or after.rules, rather than ditching ufw completely
[10:39] <shauno> just note the 'custom rules should be added to ..' comments so you don't get in an arguement with it
[10:40] <AlanBell> I think you might want a MASQUERADE rule
[10:40] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:40] <andylockran> I've got a non-standard setup already.  eth0 is the internet device, and eth1 is the internal lan
[10:41] <andylockran> eth2 are the virtual machines on the box, and that's all setup and working
[10:44] <andylockran> I want to port forward to a different IP. i think that's why it's got complicated
[10:44] <andylockran> maybe ssh -L is the best bet
[10:49]  * brobostigon reckons he needs to trim the moustache, it is getting coffee stains.
[10:49] <mungbean> eww
[10:49] <dwatkins> I nearly shaved mine off by accident yesterday.
[10:49] <mungbean> moustaches are wrong
[10:50] <brobostigon> :(
[10:51] <shauno> I don't think they're for everyone
[10:51] <brobostigon> agreed.
[10:52] <mungbean> if you have to have a special sponsored month for anyone to grow them...
[10:52] <directhex> http://www.weebls-stuff.com/songs/moustaches/
[10:52] <shauno> I tried, it looks like a 70s flashback.  except it's grey on the left side and brown on the other.
[10:53] <shauno> I'm only 30.  nowhere near ready to rock a grey tache :/
[10:55] <MartijnVdS> so dye it
[10:55] <mgdm> Go for the Billy Connolly - purple tache
[10:56] <shauno> I'm not sure I have the big yin's self-confidence
[10:56] <mgdm> hehe
[10:57] <shauno> I mean, I'm pretty sure I've seen his backside more times than my own.  red flag right there
[10:57] <mgdm> haha
[10:58] <brobostigon> a friend of mine, has his dyed like that, make me laugh everytime i see it.
[10:58] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:59] <brobostigon> morning davmor2
[11:00] <mungbean> meh £49.99
[11:05] <MooDoo> bloody customers, I know lets phone up support during the 2mins silnce.
[11:07] <brobostigon> oh dear
[11:07] <MooDoo> idiots
[11:08] <mungbean> is it not at 11.11?
[11:08] <mungbean> woops
[11:08] <directhex> bloody ubuntu
[11:08] <directhex> shipping a new kernel ABI every 2 weeks is *hell* for sysadmins
[11:08] <MartijnVdS> yay security fixes
[11:09] <MartijnVdS> especially if you need that one feature Ubuntu has disabled in their stock kernels, so every ABI bump = recompile ALL the things
[11:09] <penguin42> directhex: Most of the security fixes shouldn't be ABI changers
[11:09] <penguin42> actually I'd be surprised any are
[11:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> andylockran: Sounds like stunnel could be your friend.
[11:09] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: they all are
[11:09] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: hence 3.2.0-56 on precise atm
[11:10] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Right but they don't actually change the ABI
[11:10] <mungbean> anyone good with twiki?
[11:11] <penguin42> bleepy-bleepy-bleep?
[11:11] <directhex> none of the security fixes are ABI bumps ubuntu puts out *feature* updates every 2 weeks
[11:11] <directhex> also, have the missing carriage return from above:
[11:12] <mgdm> BIDIBIDIBIDI what's up doc </twiki>
[11:12] <directhex> adding support for newer hardware is neato and all, but a) broadly useless unless it's in an install image, and b) every 2 weeks!!?!?!
[11:13] <MartijnVdS> directhex: don't they do new hardware in the "LTS Enablement" bits only? The ABI changes are for security-only fixes.
[11:13] <penguin42> directhex: Curious; I thought the whole purpose of the hardware enablement packages in LTS was to avoid this
[11:13] <directhex> MartijnVdS, security fixes don't break ABI
[11:13] <directhex> MartijnVdS, except for under extreme circumstances
[11:14] <penguin42> directhex: Point to an ABI breaking update?
[11:14] <MartijnVdS> directhex: then why did last weekend's security update bump it from -55 to -56
[11:14] <directhex> penguin42, any time the kernel changes from -X- to -X+1- it's due to an ABI break
[11:16] <directhex> marlinc, point to a security fix in -55 compared to -54
[11:16] <directhex> MartijnVdS, ^^
[11:17] <penguin42> directhex: OK hang on - what's this actually breaking for you - you're not actually hitting a missing symbol/function that's changed in the ABI are you?
[11:17] <directhex> penguin42, i have users literally running out of disk space from having 20 kernels installed
[11:18] <penguin42> directhex: Oh!
[11:18] <penguin42> directhex: Right, that problem - that's not the ABI changing that's the problem; the problem is Ubuntu's inability to clean out old kernels!
[11:18] <directhex> penguin42, it's both
[11:18] <Laney> That is fixed nowadays
[11:18] <Laney> I don't remember if it's in 12.04 though
[11:18] <directhex> penguin42, debian 7 is on -4-
[11:18] <Laney> but old kernels are marked for autoremoval
[11:18] <penguin42> directhex: Yeh but debian is hopelessly broken
[11:19] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: NO FIRMWAREZ!!
[11:19] <penguin42> directhex: I thought you were actually complaining about an ABI break....
[11:19] <directhex> penguin42, the package name changes to *force* an ABI break
[11:19] <Laney> /etc/kernel/postinst.d/apt-auto-removal
[11:19] <penguin42> (Although looking at 3.2.0-56.86's changelog I don't see why it got inc'd)
[11:20] <penguin42> directhex: Sorry by 'ABI break' I took that to mean a binary-interface that actually changed (which should be the reason for that!)
[11:20] <penguin42> directhex: But yeh, fundamentally you're problem is a lot simpler - it's just the /boot mess on Ubuntu
[11:21] <directhex> penguin42, plenty of kernel modules will actually fail to load if the kernel's full version number (which is bumped here) does not match
[11:21] <directhex> penguin42, it *is* ABI broken. intentionally.
[11:21] <penguin42> directhex: shrug
[11:21] <directhex> not a *big* break, maybe, probably. but broken nonetheless
[11:22] <penguin42> directhex: Pretty much everything (even the closed stuff) uses build-at-boot for wrappers, so as long as the actual things you call didnd't change it works
[11:22] <directhex> as long as you don't have a /boot partition smaller than a few gig
[11:22] <directhex> i.e. as long as you don't use full disk encryption
[11:22] <penguin42> directhex: see Laney's comment about cleanup
[11:23] <directhex> know just how bad it is when your upgrade fails due to ENOSPC on /boot, when your have an encrypted root disk?
[11:23] <penguin42> directhex: That's fundamentally the problem - and yes I've hit exactly this junk on FDE
[11:23] <MartijnVdS> I've had it happen with "plain" (unencrypted) LVM installs
[11:23] <MartijnVdS> it's a LOT of work to fix
[11:26] <shauno> it seems like autoprune would be fairly easy to fix?
[11:26] <penguin42> shauno: Should be - the challenge is making sure it doesn't go nuts and take out the kernel you're using
[11:27] <penguin42> shauno: Actually it's a little more complex than that - if you don't actually reboot for a few upgrades then the challenge is what to keep; so you have to keep the one you're currently booted in and at least one you're going to boot into
[11:28] <Laney> There's some comments in the file that says what it tries to do
[11:28] <shauno> make a daily task that 'votes' for the current kernel, and expires any 'vote' over n days old.  then whenever you want to stick a new kernel in, tally the votes and kick the bottom 1 or 2.  sorted?
[11:29] <shauno> make age the tie-breaker, and it'll prefer kernels it can suppose work over something that installed and didn't workout so well
[11:53] <penguin42> meshlab could really do with using multiple cores
[12:59] <mungbean> just chomped on my ulcer on my lip :(
[13:28] <Azelphur> Whelp, my first foray into Sony devices since the PS3 debatable has left me once again hating Sony xD
[13:29] <Azelphur> bought the Smartwatch 2, they have since pulled 2/3 of the features that are printed on the box, along with a bunch of other features.
[13:29] <Azelphur> Yaaaaaay Sony.
[13:29]  * Azelphur returns
[13:29] <MartijnVdS> smart watches aren't a smart investment imho
[13:29] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: I'd be happy with it if it functioned as advertised, i really wanted wrist controls for my media player.
[13:32] <AlanBell> I think if I was spending multiple hundreds of pounds on a watch I would want it to have an expected lifetime of quite a bit more than a phone
[13:34] <Azelphur> well, mine was £125.70
[13:34] <MartijnVdS> still too much ihmo :)
[13:35] <Azelphur> hehe
[13:35] <Azelphur> well, getting a refund anyway
[13:35] <Azelphur> It's pretty bad when you have 3 features printed on the products box, and the device can only actually perform one of them
[13:36] <Azelphur> >.<
[13:36] <Azelphur> this is actually the one and only device I've ever returned under distance selling for just being bad
[13:37] <ali1234> hotglue your phone to your arm
[13:37] <Azelphur> xD
[13:37] <ali1234> (don't actually do this)
[13:38] <Azelphur> not even a little bit?
[13:38] <popey> yeah, hot glue will burn
[13:38] <popey> use super glue instead
[13:38] <Azelphur> I see
[13:38] <dwatkins> I got a Pebble watch, really like it.
[13:39] <shauno> ducttape would seem more watchstraplike?
[13:39] <Azelphur> dwatkins: I was so tempted, but I went with the Sony because it has a touchscreen and color display
[13:40] <dwatkins> I wasn't concerned about touchscreen nor colour, it is nice that I can control my music, see e-mails and calls etc.
[13:42]  * Azelphur shrugs
[13:42] <Azelphur> I think I might wait on the new google one that is supposed to be arriving
[13:44] <shauno> I'm gonna keep hoping the apple rumours come through
[13:44] <dwatkins> I was tempted to buy a 5th gen iPod nano because it can be worn as a watch.
[13:44] <dwatkins> That would be perfect with bluetooth.
[14:14] <popey> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/linux-voice
[14:16] <Azelphur> almost got kicked out from Linus Torvalds house for using an iPhone xD
[14:17] <mgdm> who did?
[14:17] <Azelphur> mgdm: the Linux Voice people, in the video popey just linked
[14:17] <mgdm> oh
[14:18] <shauno> really?  I thought he was a bit more sane than that
[14:19] <daftykins> do you think it's a joke to try and ask for a partial refund of your monthly ISP fee, when they remotely reset your router whilst you're off-island, stopping you getting access to your own gear?
[14:20] <shauno> if you don't have an SLA, I'm not sure I'd waste my time, personally
[14:20] <daftykins> well i went so far as to pester them about it, they claim they reconfigured peoples routers to change encapsulation from ATM to PPPoE
[14:21] <MartijnVdS> why didn't yours come back up then?
[14:21] <daftykins> it did, but i reconfigure them to use a different subnet
[14:21] <daftykins> so although it came back, it was factory reset
[14:22] <MartijnVdS> that's sub-optimal, to say the least
[14:22] <daftykins> *nod*
[14:22] <daftykins> everything i like to gain access to remotely / leave running was dead
[14:22] <daftykins> they claim they won't be doing it again
[14:23] <ali1234> this is why you have oob administration
[14:24] <daftykins> ?
[14:25] <daftykins> £44.98 a month for line rental and 40/2 VDSL2
[14:25] <daftykins> i wish i didn't have to have the phone :D
[14:26] <diddledan> if they have a backdoor to be able to factory reset then I'd posit they needn't factory reset just to update the encapsulation - they can get their script to just change the relevant settings
[14:26] <ali1234> not really
[14:26] <ali1234> they likely had to push out a new firmware
[14:26] <MartijnVdS> for GCHQ, of course
[14:27] <daftykins> i bet the firmware didn't change. i asked about getting a new one in my original email
[14:27] <daftykins> yeah same version
[14:28] <daftykins> just a single parameter change on the 'dial up' profile
[14:28] <ali1234> what router is it?
[14:30] <daftykins> http://www.technicolorgateways.nl/Producten/Advanced/TG789vnv3/TG789vnv3Datasheet.pdf
[14:30] <daftykins> Technicolor TG789vn v3
[14:31] <ali1234> ah
[14:32] <daftykins> wow with that PDF open, Firefox 25 won't let me edit the address bar
[14:34] <ali1234> the firmware on those does have an internet facing config port
[14:34] <ali1234> you can disable it, but it might not be enough to keep out the ISP
[14:34] <ali1234> they also have an internel telnet interface that can be scripted fairly easily
[14:37] <dwatkins> My router has an option to allow connections only from a specific IP address, so I set my ISP's source address there just in case they do need to login.
[14:37] <MartijnVdS> I've specifically disabled that.
[14:37] <daftykins> yeah this is all disabled, whatever they've got is a manufacturer provided back door
[14:38] <daftykins> ali1234: yeah the thing has a rather fail limitation - you can't stop it acting as a DNS server. regardless of your settings, it will provide DHCP leases with itself as the primary IP. you can only bypass that by telneting in
[14:39] <daftykins> i would probably be better off buying a good wireless AP - then using the BT Openreach branded Huawei HG612 i have :)
[14:45] <ali1234> daftykins: you can annoy your ISP by reflashing to another ISP's firmware with a known superuser password, and then disable it
[14:58] <hamitron> think I'm going to go back to using a PC as my router
[14:58] <ga73ric> hi
[14:58] <ga73ric> what are you doing here?
[14:58] <ga73ric> whats the sense of this chat?
[14:59] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: get an OpenWRT capable router, and use that :)
[14:59] <hamitron> hmmmm
[14:59] <hamitron> I have a wrt54gl
[14:59] <hamitron> but it is dated now
[14:59] <mgdm> I have two of those
[14:59] <MartijnVdS> I have a TP-Link 4300
[15:00] <MartijnVdS> it's the New Hotness, I guess
[15:00] <hamitron> but all the good routers cost a fair bit
[15:00] <hamitron> especially when I consider I have unused computer hardware laid all over
[15:00] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: http://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-Link-TL-WDR4300-Wireless-Gigabit-Router/dp/B00810P80S - 62gbp
[15:01] <hamitron> 60 quid!
[15:01] <hamitron> :/
[15:01] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: lots of TP-Link hardware is supported though
[15:02] <hamitron> oh, it is good hardware I'm sure
[15:02] <hamitron> just..... pointless wasting 60 quid
[15:02] <diddledan> hamitron: consider the difference in power usage tho
[15:02] <hamitron> yeh, power = heat
[15:02] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: no I mean, they have £20 routers with OpenWRT support as well
[15:02] <hamitron> heat = good
[15:02] <diddledan> and then the ensuing cost for electricity
[15:02] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: just don't expect dual-band wifi etc. :)
[15:03] <hamitron> wifi? who needs that?
[15:03] <hamitron> ;/
[15:03] <diddledan> wifey ftl?
[15:03] <diddledan> is that partner-ist?
[15:03] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: dual-band!
[15:03]  * popey hugs his netgear wndr3700
[15:03] <hamitron> the 1gbit upgrade would be nice, from 100mbit
[15:04] <popey> dd-wrt and openwrt
[15:04] <diddledan> popey: at the same time? :-p
[15:04] <popey> ya
[15:04] <popey> i have two
[15:04] <diddledan> aah
[15:04] <hamitron> haha
[15:04] <hamitron> nicely done
[15:04] <MartijnVdS> DD-WRT is weirdly closed
[15:04] <hamitron> :)
[15:04] <diddledan> not a frankenstein then
[15:04] <MartijnVdS> OpenWRT is *very* open (I've built my own images, DD-WRT doesn't like you doing that)
[15:04] <hamitron> is openwrt faster than dd-wrt?
[15:04] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: yes, it's a shame that
[15:05] <diddledan> dd-wrt seems to have support for platforms that open doesn't
[15:05] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: similar, openwrt tends to have newer kernels though
[15:05] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: that's true the other way around too
[15:05] <mgdm> I know DD-WRT is a bit odd but I run it anyway because for my purposes it Just Works™
[15:05] <hamitron> well, I mean, which can be cut down to be the lightest?
[15:05] <mgdm> hamitron: I'd guess openwrt
[15:05] <ali1234> dd-wrt is a kang :(
[15:05] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: it's the only Free® firmware with working 5GHz radar detection
[15:06] <MartijnVdS> Free-ish*
[15:06] <mgdm> ali1234: is a what?
[15:06] <mgdm> MartijnVdS: radar detection?
[15:06] <diddledan> radar detection?
[15:06] <hamitron> so i suppose moving my wrt54gl from dd-wrt to openwrt may be a good start
[15:06] <MartijnVdS> yeah, if you run an AP on some 5GHz channel, you need to scan for radar pulses and move to another channel if you detect one
[15:07] <mgdm> ah
[15:07] <diddledan> can I fake radar pulses so that my neighbours all avoid my channel?
[15:07] <MartijnVdS> OpenWRT seems to almost support it as well though
[15:07] <ali1234> mgdm: what happens when someone grabs a load of open source code (like openwrt) and then merges it with a bunch of non-free junk, and then releases it under a non-free crayon license
[15:07] <diddledan> craola
[15:07] <diddledan> crayola**
[15:08] <mgdm> ali1234: ah
[15:09] <MartijnVdS> dd-wrt prefers old kernels and binary drivers to new kernels and free drivers
[15:09] <MartijnVdS> and when you ask "Why" on the forums, the developers shout at you for asking a frequently-asked question (without pointing you to the answer)
[15:18] <daftykins> hurry up and refresh everything with Haswell, PC industry.
[15:45] <ali1234> AlanBell: what was that dbus accessability stuff with zooming?
[15:46] <ali1234> to make the zoomed region follow the text cursor
[15:46] <AlanBell> text tracking zoom
[15:46] <AlanBell> Bug #727290
[15:47] <ali1234> "im progress" lol
[15:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol: https://github.com/philipl/pifs/blob/master/README.md
[15:47] <ali1234> if anyone is really working on that i will be extremely surprised
[15:48] <ali1234> so, what API did you have to use?
[15:48] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: brilliant :)
[15:50] <ali1234> ah, it's GObject? good....
[15:50] <AlanBell> ali1234: it uses at-spi to get the offset of the text in the text field, then pans to that location
[15:52] <ali1234> and C too, even better
[15:52] <AlanBell> yup, compiz plugin
[15:53] <AlanBell> ali1234: https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/compiz/texttracking/+merge/111710
[15:56] <andylockran> cd hey guys
[15:56] <andylockran> address 74.52.155.130 has dropped off the internet
[15:56] <diddledan> hey: no such file or directory
[15:56] <andylockran> wouldn't normally be an issue - but a clients website was on it
[15:57] <mgdm> andylockran: what's that got to do with ubuntu-uk...?
[15:57] <popey> hehe
[15:57] <popey> wrong channel methinks
[15:58] <diddledan> theplanet.com internet services own the netblock - interesting name
[15:58] <dwatkins> Hack the planet!
[15:58] <dwatkins> *ahem* excuse me
[15:58] <diddledan> haha
[15:58] <diddledan> that actually works
[15:58]  * daftykins portscans dwatkins' gibson
[15:58] <diddledan> I never knew
[15:59] <mgdm> why wouldn't it?
[15:59] <dwatkins> They used nmap in the film The Matrix.
[15:59] <diddledan> I'm betting they used that name because steve gibson used to be popular
[15:59] <dwatkins> I think they changed the IP addresses to have numbers >255, though
[16:00] <diddledan> argh @ sirens blaring at me
[16:00] <mgdm> I doubt it has anything to do with steve gibson
[16:00] <diddledan> I really should come up with a better alert tone than an airraid siren
[16:00] <mgdm> William Gibson, however
[16:00] <mgdm> Steve Gibson was that entertaining guy who used to bang on about writing all his apps in assembler, right?
[16:00] <mgdm> and had a port scanning tool of some sort?
[16:01] <diddledan> I love the fact that the director made the decision to not use cgi because it wasn't realistic enough
[16:01] <diddledan> mgdm: yeah, grc.com
[16:01] <mgdm> yeah. It's not named after him. :-)
[16:01] <diddledan> lol
[16:04] <diddledan> apparently all the "handles" that the joey character suggests naming his online persona were aliases actual hackers had used in the era it was filmed. like "master of disaster" (the only one I remember off the top of my head)
[16:05] <ali1234> i don't remember any of this stuff happening in the matrix
[16:06] <diddledan> ali1234: wrong movie
[16:06] <ali1234> ip addresses > 255 was the net
[16:06] <ali1234> the matrix was very obviously full of cgi
[16:07] <ali1234> so i'm really confused now
[16:07] <diddledan> ali1234: the non-cgi was hackers
[16:08] <ali1234> never seen it
[16:08] <mgdm> I'd not bother
[16:09] <hamitron> it is worth 1 viewing ;)
[16:09] <ali1234> johnny lee miller is in it right?
[16:09] <diddledan> and angelina with her jolies
[16:10] <GentileBen> I bet you'd like to diddle her jolies, diddledan.
[16:13] <diddledan> http://www.maplin.co.uk/ouya
[16:13] <diddledan> random link time
[16:13]  * hamitron had email about it already
[16:14] <GentileBen> Why choose Ouya over Nvidia's Shield?
[16:17] <ali1234> argh.... who broke rhythmbox?
[16:17] <diddledan> GentileBen: I thought the shield was a handheld?
[16:18] <ali1234> yeah it is
[16:18] <diddledan> then that would be a reason to choose ouya over the shield
[16:27] <popey> https://www.scirra.com/blog/tom/4/bitcoins-uk-future-looks-bleak
[16:27] <directhex> hackers is the greatest drunken movie in history
[16:28] <awilkins> As in the actors are drunk or it's fun to watch it drunk?
[16:29] <penguin42> is Key lime pie always disappointing or did I just have a bland one?
[16:29] <awilkins> I actually liked the utter unrealism of how the hacking was portrayed
[16:29] <awilkins> penguin42, Key Lime pie is lovely with a good filling and a nice spicy ginger biscuit base IMHO
[16:30] <penguin42> awilkins: Hmm the base of this was a nice pastry base, but not gingery - the filling was creamy but nothing more
[16:30] <daftykins> penguin42: i had one down in Key West, where it originates (so i understand) - it wasn't all that special
[16:31] <directhex> awilkins, it's an excellent drinking game
[16:31] <directhex> awilkins, best done with 95% rubbing alcohol, whenever anyone does something unrealistic take a chug
[16:32] <penguin42> daftykins: This one was from http://www.slattery.co.uk/ - so a Mancunian Key Lime Pie
[16:32] <awilkins> directhex, I thought the hacking stuff was nowhere near real but did actually convey the spirit and excitement of that kind of thing
[16:33]  * penguin42 finds the worrying thing with Person Of Interest now, after the Snowdon stuff is that the bit that seems most unreal is the worry by the spooks of if they're caught
[16:33] <awilkins> directhex, Artistic license probably better than watching an nmap session
[16:33] <mungbean> British spy agency GCHQ set up fake LinkedIn and Slashdot pages to plant malware within Belgacom, a Belgian telecommunications company. Using a method called "quantum insert," the GCHQ was reportedly able to preempt legitimate access to the websites, redirecting the employees to fake sites that compromised their computers.
[16:34] <directhex> mungbean, i feel far more terrorised by GCHQ than by people in silly hedgear
[16:35] <mungbean> but sounds cool though
[16:36] <diddledan> quantum insert?
[16:36] <diddledan> wtf?
[16:37] <penguin42> diddledan: Bend over, we need to check your....
[16:37] <diddledan> soon we'll have omega bypass
[16:37] <diddledan> not to be confused with a heart surgery
[16:37] <diddledan> or maybe it is
[16:38] <mungbean> he technique is an aspect of a larger strategy used by the GCHQ as well as the NSA to place a system of “secret servers, codenamed Quantum, at key places on the Internet backbone,
[16:39] <bashrc> Hasn't GCHQ got better things to do than to muck around with linkedin?
[16:39] <mungbean> This placement ensures that they can react faster than other websites can. By exploiting that speed difference, these servers can impersonate a visited website to the target before the legitimate website can respond, thereby tricking the target’s browser to visit a Foxacid (sic) server.”
[16:39] <mungbean> bashrc: its not linkedin , its to drop malware onto pcs
[16:39] <diddledan> wait, they're relying on timing for their attack?
[16:40] <bashrc> does that mean that all the "terroists" have linkedin profiles highlighing their various plots
[16:41] <SuperMatt> sure, why not?
[16:41] <penguin42> diddledan: apparently so - by putting machines somewhere that gets to respond prior to the real server; which makes me wonder if criminals are doing the same thing by doing DoS attacks
[16:42] <mungbean> i want to work for gchq now
[16:42] <diddledan> bashrc: I talk about my own explosive activities on facebook. and sometimes on irc when the situation calls. my bowels have celebrity status
[16:43] <diddledan> and this is why service providers should limit the ip addresses that they respond to and route to only those on their own networks
[16:44] <penguin42> diddledan: Well that doesn't help - gchq isn't going to be behind a normal ISP - they'll just be plugged into LINX or the like
[16:45] <bashrc> so they're phishing?
[16:45] <diddledan> penguin42: it still works on linx level - they know the ip addresses of all their peers so they can refuse to accept packages the magically appear out of nowhere or don't have an ip in the whitelist
[16:46] <diddledan> that way when a black box responds using linkedin's ip address linx know that it's fake
[16:47] <penguin42> diddledan: hmm I'm not sure they know the address of all the peers - stuff can route via pretty odd routes can't it?
[16:48] <diddledan> they only need to know the immediate 1-level upstream ip addresses. if it goes via a weird route to get to that peer(s) it doesn't matter because the peer will supplant it's own ip in the reply-to field
[16:49] <directhex> http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/11/gamestick-review/#continued
[16:49] <diddledan> of course I'm verging on stuff I know little about here
[16:54] <diddledan> the solution really though would be to use ssl
[16:54] <SuperMatt> unless GCHQ has access to private keys
[16:55] <diddledan> >.<
[16:55] <SuperMatt> I'm sure it's super easy for them to ask for private keys
[16:55] <directhex> http://xkcd.com/538/
[16:56] <SuperMatt> sure sure
[16:56] <SuperMatt> but if they have a court order to hand over private certs, they don't need drink or hacking
[16:57] <penguin42> SuperMatt: Right, but you have to use SSL for *everything* - even just browsing some random news site like /.
[16:57] <diddledan> I like how in the uk we're obliged to hand over a key to anything they think is encrypted. that includes things that aren't and therefore those which you don't have a key. it's a criminal offence not to hand over the key.
[16:58] <bashrc> does it have to be the right key?
[16:58] <diddledan> bashrc: it has to decrypt the content
[16:59] <diddledan> I'm not sure if truecrypt's plausible deniability volume within a volume would be sufficient for them to believe they've decrypted "the content"
[17:00] <diddledan> the problem is they don't need to prove something is encrypted for them to require you to hand over "the key"
[17:00] <diddledan> and losing the key isn't a valid defence
[17:01] <diddledan> nor is not actually possessing the key
[17:01] <bashrc> could you swallow the key?
[17:01] <diddledan> yes, but you have to hand it over at some point
[17:01] <diddledan> if you don't hand over the key they put you in prison
[17:02] <bashrc> actually, it's not the court orders which concern me, it's the mass surveillance without suspicion
[17:02] <ali1234> make it 100 levels nested deep
[17:02] <diddledan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000
[17:02] <ali1234> every time they ask for the key for the next level fight it to the maximum extent possible
[17:03] <diddledan> the point is there is no fighting allowed
[17:03] <ali1234> they have to ask you for the key
[17:03] <diddledan> you are required to hand it over or you go to prison
[17:03] <diddledan> simple as
[17:03] <ali1234> that's not true
[17:03] <diddledan> yeah they ask you, you say no, they arrest you
[17:03] <ali1234> they have to ask you to give them the key
[17:04] <ali1234> they ask you, you give them the key, they decrypt another encrypted volume, they ask for the next key, etc
[17:04] <ali1234> just make sure there's enough keys that they have to keep asking you for the next one forever
[17:09] <diddledan> and how do you remember where all these keys are along with their passwords?
[17:10] <diddledan> the moment you forget one they arrest you
[17:15] <ali1234> use a deterministic random number generator
[17:21] <penguin42> yes, it's encrypted with pi
[17:29] <diddledan> nono, pi^2
[17:29] <diddledan> less obvious
[17:33] <AlanBell> tau
[17:35] <popey> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BV5Ye87ypAg/UoAZRDHk3EI/AAAAAAAAfYs/9BvR0_Yry-I/w1395-h872-no/metal.jpg
[17:35] <popey> eww
[17:36] <awilkins> UI straight out of the 90s
[17:36] <awilkins> Reminds of Amiga
[17:36] <AlanBell> hmm, maybe a focus on visual design isn't *all* bad
[17:37] <penguin42> popey: Oh that's a bit grim
[17:38]  * penguin42 would point out this isn't the default KDE style!
[17:38] <ali1234> awilkins: amiga looked nothing like that :(
[17:39] <penguin42> more orange and blue wasn't it?
[17:39] <ali1234> yeah
[17:39] <ali1234> it did look a bit like that if you installed MUI
[17:39] <ali1234> also, that *is* the default KDE iconset, which is horrible
[17:40] <ali1234> and quite possibly the default plasma theme
[17:40] <awilkins> ali1234, You could style the Amiga UI how you liked and a lot of them were like that... also reminds me of all the Copper gradient effects that Amiga things used
[17:40] <ali1234> also ironically qtcurve is the only qt theme flexible enough to do a passing imitation of the nicer gtk themes
[17:41] <ali1234> nasty gradient are a staple of KDE design though
[17:41] <ali1234> KDE should totally copy the new flat-everything style
[17:42]  * AlanBell thinks everything should be textured and 3d and rotatably so
[17:47]  * penguin42 bets there's a desktop effect for that somewhere
[17:50] <diddledan> don't you hate receiving almost a dozen emails telling you to be ready for a work-related email blackout on a non-workday
[17:51] <diddledan> and they just sent me another one
[17:52] <diddledan> thankyou government for insisting that we use not-email for email communications
[17:53] <diddledan> I'd prefer it if they just encrypted using pgp or s/mime
[17:53] <diddledan> that way I can keep it in my own inbox
[17:59] <daftykins> diddledan: could be worse, they could blanket bomb everyone with net sends :(
[17:59] <daftykins> (windows network, at my old College of further ed.)
[18:00] <diddledan> yeouch
[18:01] <daftykins> diddledan: i got a formal disciplinary as a student back in ~2003 for replying with a net send asking them to stop sending so many :(
[18:01] <diddledan> wtf?! that really sucks
[18:02] <mgdm> My memory of them is that they all just disappeared when I hit space as I was usually typing at the time
[18:02] <daftykins> diddledan: hehe, i kinda asked for it
[18:02] <daftykins> mgdm: haha yeah
[18:02] <daftykins> that's my biggest issue with Windows actually - active window theft
[18:03] <AlanBell> I got in trouble for doing something similar on CP/M devices RM 380Z or something
[18:03] <daftykins> i get extremely frustrated when something steals focus
[18:03] <AlanBell> can't remember the exact command, but I did a "something wonderful has happened, your computer has come alive" to every terminal
[18:04] <daftykins> :>
[18:04] <AlanBell> think I had to write an essay on hacking as a punishment
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> I wrote a 3-line BASIC program that printed "This computer is broken" in an infinite loop with a rainbow of colours once
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> at a school I was considering going to
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> then they freaked out and claimed I broke it. Then I pressed the reset button.
[18:07] <daftykins> MartijnVdS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OR2NDfxrmE
[18:07] <daftykins> !
[18:09] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASICODE
[18:30] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: that's quite interestinbg
[18:51] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[18:52] <bigcalm> My mum would like a spreadsheet app for her iPad. Any recommendations?
[18:52] <MartijnVdS> google docs?
[18:52] <bigcalm> I'm guessing she wants an app rather than a web interface
[18:53] <diddledan> bigcalm: there's apple's numbers or googley drive or microsoft's office
[18:53] <bigcalm> Needs to be useable off-line
[18:54] <bigcalm> diddledan: is Apple's Numbers an app that can be used offline?
[18:55] <diddledan> it's an app. whether it can be used offline or not I don't now
[18:55] <diddledan> know
[18:55] <bigcalm> Okay, ta
[18:55] <bigcalm> popey: ping
[18:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> Google Drive works offline. On Android at any rate. *But*  I find spreadsheets  rather hard to use on a tablet in general.
[18:57] <diddledan> https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/numbers/id361304891?mt=8 <-- that's numbers
[18:58] <bigcalm> diddledan: thanks
[19:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> Who was saying they like Naga chillies earlier... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqQYvT98kvI&feature=youtu.be
[19:00] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: uh.. you?
[19:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> This is the home of the Dorset Naga - They grew one plant for a competition to see how many ripe pods they could get from one plant...
[19:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> The answer was totally insane
[19:05] <bigcalm> Thanks for the suggestions guys
[19:13] <daftykins> at the end of the vid: "you haven't miss read"
[19:13] <daftykins> what's Miss Read got to do with this :(
[19:13] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[19:13] <TheOpenSourcerer> They're farmers.
[19:13] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: "You must be Miss Reading"
[19:14] <daftykins> ;D
[19:14] <daftykins> what's the deal with the green ones though, were they counted or not 0o
[19:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> Nope - ripe only
[19:16] <daftykins> are all green chilis unripe?
[19:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> That's a good question. Not sure but probably not.
[19:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> I bet there are some that ripen to green...
[19:17] <daftykins> must be why they both appear in cooking :D
[19:17] <TheOpenSourcerer> There are a *lot* of colour varieties now.
[19:17] <TheOpenSourcerer> Red, brown, peach, mustard, purple, pink with stripes, yellow,
[19:18] <daftykins> :o
[19:20] <TheOpenSourcerer> daftykins: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlanLord/posts/5NKzMQMyfpT
[19:21] <daftykins> wow
[19:21] <daftykins> they look like little spice grenades :)
[19:21] <TheOpenSourcerer> I'm looking for the pink tiger photo. It's in a private group on FB.
[19:21] <daftykins> kinda funky shapes though
[19:22] <popey> bigcalm: pong
[19:23] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: don't want to be rubbing your eyes after handling them though right :D
[19:23] <TheOpenSourcerer> davmor2: It's ok until you cut them open
[19:24] <TheOpenSourcerer> I made the mistake of crumbling up 1/2 a Jay's Peach Ghost Scorpion for lunch today - my hand has been on fire ever seince.
[19:24] <davmor2> I know, except for some that you dip in whole :)
[19:24] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: haha
[19:25] <bigcalm> popey: my mum needs an iPad app to manipulate spreadsheets. Do you use one, can you recommend one?
[19:26] <popey> i do not
[19:26] <bigcalm> Okay, ta :)
[19:28] <davmor2> bigcalm: don't get the mini if it is spreadsheets
[19:28] <bigcalm> ?
[19:28] <bigcalm> This is for an iPad 2 that she already has
[19:29] <davmor2> bigcalm: sorry I missed the app bit
[19:29] <bigcalm> :)
[19:39] <TheOpenSourcerer> daftykins: Can you see this? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202952042581136&set=gm.542043479211336&type=1
[19:39] <daftykins> yes sir-ee
[19:39] <daftykins> wow that's multi-coloured
[19:40] <daftykins> don't think i'd trust it :D
[19:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> Pink Tiger. A new variety variety not yet really stable.
[20:19] <daftykins> Introducing the Humble Store D:
[20:24] <directhex> daftykins, there's been an unofficial humble store for ages
[20:25] <directhex> daftykins, individual game devs can include a humble widget on their sites, to sell the game via humble's infrastructure. so someone made a page which just shows every possible humble widget
[20:25] <daftykins> oic
[20:25] <daftykins> ah well, never even buy them really. i know only too well the allure of game collection without actual play ;)
[20:26] <directhex> http://humblestore.webs.com/store
[20:27] <ali1234> it's getting to the point where it's just the same games over and over now
[20:31] <ali1234> X4 is coming out next week
[20:31] <ali1234> the linux version will probably be out some time in a couple of years, lol
[20:38] <directhex> ali1234, X is a complicated one. tl;dr: blame the corpse of Linux Game Publishing
[20:38] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: what, when it's up to X11?
[20:40] <directhex> ali1234, bear in mind X 4 has the same publisher as Metro Last Light, and that egosoft just did their own X3 port (replacing the useless LGP port)
[20:40] <directhex> i.e. i wouldn't expect to be waiting years
[20:41] <ali1234> yeah they reckon it will be "soon" (maybe, my german is bad)
[20:41] <dogmatic69> After an update, after power down/up all apps are restored \o/
[20:42] <ali1234> X3 was fun until the end game, then it's just lots of waiting
[20:44] <ali1234> it turns into cookie clicker in space...
[20:44] <ali1234> but you still get many hours of gameplay before that
[21:06] <popey> http://imgur.com/hGztzlu
[21:06] <popey> mmmm.. delcious cheesecake
[21:06] <popey> on a childs plate
[21:12] <daftykins> popey: :D New York?
[21:12] <daftykins> (style)
[21:14] <popey> ya
[21:36] <penguin42> what makes a cheesecake New York style?
[21:42] <ali1234> baked/not baked
[21:42] <ali1234> don't remember which
[21:42] <ali1234> popey's looks not baked
[21:47] <popey> it was delicious
[21:47]  * popey hugs Co-Op
[22:11] <daftykins> any of you caught this Inspector Montalbano series? it's great :D
[22:12] <daftykins> saw my parents watching an episode whilst i was over the other night
[22:12] <daftykins> Italian subtitled series, but really good fun, some great humour in it
[22:14]  * popey is busy playing CAH online ☻
[22:14] <popey> never heard of that
[22:15] <daftykins> there's some season 8 on the iPlayer i believe
[22:15] <daftykins> CAH?
[22:18] <popey> Cards Against Humanity
[22:26] <daftykins> hmm, not familiar with
[22:27] <mgdm> it's entertaining
[22:27] <mgdm> I have a dead-tree set but haven't played yet though :(
[23:03] <bigcalm> daftykins: my parents watch it. I tried but found the action too quick to be comfortable with subtitles
[23:04] <bigcalm> mgdm: then you should attend an oggcamp ;)
[23:04] <daftykins> *nod* i rewind a bit :)
[23:04] <bigcalm> mgdm: Steph brought his sets with him to phpnw13. You could do the same next year ;)
[23:05]  * bigcalm goes back to optimising a database (this is tedious)
[23:06] <mgdm> bigcalm: I bought mine in the bar while playing
[23:06] <bigcalm> Ah
[23:06] <bigcalm> mgdm: Actually, you were in the same game as me at phpnw13. My memory is shoddy
[23:07] <mgdm> hehe
[23:12] <mgdm> bigcalm: how's the DB?
[23:13] <bigcalm> mgdm: the problems we saw on Friday disappeared without us doing anything. I think that the users were hammering F5 when the sight didn't respond, which compounded the issue.
[23:14] <bigcalm> mgdm: the improvement work I'm doing now is partly to help prevent that in the future
[23:14] <mgdm> ah yes
[23:15] <bigcalm> Or at least make it less likely to suffer so badly
[23:16] <bigcalm> I look forward to the day that the client says "rebuild it from scratch in the framework of our choice"
[23:16] <mgdm> how are you going about it? (being nosey now I realise)
[23:16] <bigcalm> Which isn't as unlikely as it sounds
[23:16] <mgdm> rebuilds aren't ever the magic solution people think they are :-)
[23:16] <bigcalm> mgdm: starting by adding indexes to all FKs
[23:17] <mgdm> oh. very basic stuff then
[23:17] <bigcalm> mgdm: the site is currently in CakePHP 1.1 and horrible horrible mess
[23:17] <bigcalm> mgdm: it's a start
[23:17] <mgdm> is this something you took over?
[23:17] <bigcalm> Yes
[23:17] <mgdm> cool, so I can slate it then without too much offence? :D
[23:17] <bigcalm> At least 3 different sets of devs have worked on this over the years. Each with their own way of miss-using the framework
[23:17] <bigcalm> Completely!
[23:20] <bigcalm> Ah crap. I'm trying to run an alter table modify column on a column that the db thinks isn't in the table
[23:20] <bigcalm> And it's not a spelling mistake
[23:21] <mgdm> eh?
[23:22] <bigcalm> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6402473/
[23:23] <bigcalm> Aha
[23:23] <bigcalm> I had apartment_id twice
[23:23] <mgdm> ah
[23:23] <bigcalm> Odd error message for that
[23:23] <mgdm> you're changing the column type?
[23:24] <bigcalm> Yes
[23:24] <bigcalm> Standardising everything as much as I can
[23:29] <bigcalm> Next to grep the codebase for "where" (yes, everything is raw sql queries) and put indexes on those columns
[23:31] <BigRedS> bigcalm: probably easier to just check the slow query log?
[23:31] <BigRedS> no point modifying/debugging SQL that's only called once a fortnight and lasts four ms a go
[23:32] <bigcalm> BigRedS: that's the next step, yes
[23:33] <bigcalm> Logging slow queries and trying to comprehend the output of explain
[23:34] <bigcalm> Then it'll be on to profiling the project
[23:34] <bigcalm> What's the profiler of choice for PHP these days?
[23:40] <AlanBell> bigcalm: I have used xhprof and got a result from it
[23:41] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/callgraphs/test1.png shows you critical path stuff like this
[23:41] <bigcalm> AlanBell: thanks. Easy to set-up?
[23:42] <AlanBell> fairly easy
[23:42] <AlanBell> the hard part was doing something useful with the output
[23:43] <AlanBell> you find out that stuff that sanitises small strings and gets called a *lot* is really quite important
[23:44] <AlanBell> but mostly what I found out is that all code is fast, you can safely ignore it. Anything in the slow query log needs indexing until it shuts up
[23:50] <BigRedS> haha
[23:55] <bigcalm> :D