/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/14/#ubuntu-za.txt

Private_User	Maaz, what is the best shutdown command for Lubuntu?	04:19
Maaz	Private_User: Erk, dunno	04:19
Private_User	Maaz, :(	04:19
Maaz	Private_User: Excuse me?	04:19
Private_User	lol	04:19
Private_User	Maaz, coffee	04:20
Maaz	Private_User: coffee is liquid code	04:20
Private_User	lol	04:20
Private_User	I guess everybody is still asleep?	04:23
Private_User	Wondering if anybody else has been experiencing an issue with in my case lubuntu not shutting down?	04:24
Private_User	When I try to shutdown it reboots the machine	04:24
Private_User	even tried the terminal	04:25
Private_User	using sudo shutdown -P and -H	04:25
Private_User	using sudo shutdown -P now and -H	04:25
Private_User	ok cool no worries when you guys get a chance let me know how I can resolve this will ask again later when others have logged on	04:57
Private_User	cheers for now	04:58
Kilos	morning geek types , lurkers included	05:17
nuvolari	o/ morning oom Kilos :)	05:28
nuvolari	hello Xethron, Private_User, maaz	05:29
Maaz	yo	05:29
nuvolari	Maaz: coffee please	05:29
Maaz	nuvolari: There isn't a pot on	05:29
nuvolari	Maaz: coffee on	05:29
* Maaz starts grinding coffee		05:29
nuvolari	Maaz: coffee please	05:29
Maaz	nuvolari: Now now, we don't want anyone getting caffeine overdoses	05:29
nuvolari	you don't know me	05:29
Private_User	morning nuvolari and Kilos	05:29
Kilos	lo nuvolari	05:30
Kilos	hi Private_User	05:30
Kilos	Maaz, coffee please	05:30
Maaz	Kilos: Yessir	05:30
Kilos	nuvolari, just ask for large or larger	05:31
Private_User	yo Kilos, what was that command you told me to shut down ubuntu from terminal again? Sorry I forgot where I wrote it down or if I even wrote it down	05:32
Kilos	sudo shutdown -h now	05:32
Private_User	I have been having issues with shutting down cause when I try to shutdown it reboots the machine	05:33
Private_User	yep try that	05:33
Kilos	sudo reboot to reboot	05:33
Maaz	Coffee's ready for nuvolari and Kilos!	05:33
Kilos	oh my	05:33
Kilos	wait	05:33
Kilos	there was another thing that sorted that	05:33
Kilos	sudo aptitude reinstall upstart	05:34
Kilos	Maaz, gracias amigo	05:34
Maaz	¡de nada compadre	05:34
Private_User	I even tried this solution http://netgator.blogspot.com/2012/07/ubuntu-lubuntu-1204-shutdown-doesnt.html	05:34
Private_User	ok let me try the above quickly, thanks Kilos	05:34
Kilos	yw	05:35
Private_User	does Maaz make milo or hot chocolate as well?	05:36
Private_User	:D	05:36
Kilos	lol no just coffee	05:36
Kilos	and half tea	05:36
Kilos	Maaz, tea please	05:36
Maaz	As soon as the kettle boils Kilos I will pour boiling water into your cup if you have the tea bag in already	05:36
Private_User	:( Kilos, it did not resolve the issue still rebooting	05:38
Kilos	i have that quiet splash removed evrything between the " "	05:39
Kilos	and one more thing , lemme find it	05:39
Private_User	you kinow to be honest most people would be frustrated having issues, for me I am actually a little glad cause each time I google I learn something new I can do with Ubuntu	05:42
Private_User	:)	05:42
Kilos	yeah but i had to ask here because i hate google	05:43
Private_User	lol	05:43
Kilos	everyone says google is your friend, but not mine	05:43
Kilos	sec while i look for that boot splash thingie	05:43
Private_User	why not? so which search engine do you use?	05:43
Private_User	ok cool thanks	05:43
Kilos	google but i hate getting 500 pages to search through	05:44
Private_User	well in my case and many others I know Google is what makes them an "expert" at their job LOL	05:46
Kilos	sudo nano /etc/default/grub	05:46
Kilos	remove the "quiet splash"	05:46
Kilos	sudo update-grub2	05:46
Kilos	i have an extra bit somewhere	05:46
Kilos	you delete quiet splash there but leave the ""	05:47
Private_User	what about acpi=force?	05:48
Kilos	http://askubuntu.com/questions/129738/can-i-disable-the-ubuntu-splashscreen	05:49
Kilos	i have it saved somewhere but forgot where	05:49
Kilos	do you know how to use nano?	05:50
Kilos	i think that sudo update-grub2 should be sudo update-grub	05:50
Kilos	hi bd	05:50
Kilos	ai!	05:50
Kilos	bduk1,	05:51
Kilos	whew where did i hide it?sigh	05:56
Kilos	im sure there was something to uncomment as well	05:57
Kilos	Private_User, can you use nano?	05:57
Private_User	oops now it seems worse, not the screen goes off but the machine is still running	05:57
Private_User	*now	05:57
Kilos	now try sudo shutdown -h now	05:58
Private_User	ok that was just for -H	05:58
Kilos	small h	05:58
Private_User	-P now reboots again	05:58
Private_User	ah ok sorry let me try that	05:59
Kilos	you reinstalled upstart?	05:59
Private_User	ok stil the same it reboots	05:59
Kilos	i see one place they say nvidia drivers are interfering	05:59
Private_User	yep when you mentioned it earlier	06:00
Kilos	do you have nvidia installed?	06:00
Private_User	let me check	06:00
Kilos	is it a lappy or desktop?	06:01
Private_User	yep nvidia-common is ticked under Synaptic Package Manager	06:02
Private_User	desktop	06:02
Kilos	do you need nvidia?	06:03
Kilos	try sudo aptitude install nvidia-current	06:03
Kilos	and see if it sees errors anywhere	06:04
Private_User	but I think that solved my screen resolution	06:04
Private_User	I now have 1024x768	06:04
Kilos	ya it does	06:04
Private_User	did not have that option before	06:04
Kilos	mine is even bigger	06:04
Kilos	dunno how to find it	06:04
Kilos	oh in settings you can choose it where it shows 1024x768	06:05
bduk1	Morning everyone	06:05
Kilos	yo bduk1 mazal siek al weer?	06:07
bduk1	Nee net bietjie besig op ons ander site. Sal seker nou nou terug wees	06:08
Kilos	a	06:08
Kilos	Private_User, when did this start happening?	06:20
Private_User	yesterday	06:20
Kilos	after an upgrade?	06:21
Private_User	man I hate these CRT monitors, thats what I am using for the desktop. you have to adjust the display manually on the actually screen	06:21
Private_User	well I think it was after an update but I cannot remember doing an update the day before yesterday	06:22
Private_User	I performed one on Sunday	06:22
Private_User	and monday it shutdown fine	06:22
Private_User	even Tuesday	06:22
Kilos	eish	06:22
Private_User	so I cannot be 100% sure what may have changed	06:22
Kilos	i wish the clever peeps would jump in here	06:23
Private_User	lol, thought you were one of them	06:23
Kilos	nope im a noob because i forget what they teach me	06:23
Kilos	hi ThatGraemeGuy	06:24
Kilos	im supposed to be the greater bot here	06:24
ThatGraemeGuy	lol	06:24
ThatGraemeGuy	morning :)	06:24
Private_User	lol	06:25
Kilos	Private_User, whats happening?	06:25
Private_User	still the same Shudown option just reboots the machine	06:26
Kilos	oh and do you have a nvidia graphics card in there	06:26
Kilos	type in the dash additional	06:27
Kilos	maybe specific drivers will help	06:27
Kilos	some guys can find errors if you run tail /var/lod/syslog but i dont understand it	06:28
Kilos	ai!	06:29
Kilos	tail /var/log/syslog	06:29
Kilos	Private_User, how did you start the upgrade?	06:34
Private_User	I went to system tools update manager	06:34
Private_User	then clicked check	06:34
Private_User	then Install updates	06:34
Kilos	try running sudo apt-get update	06:35
Kilos	then	06:35
Kilos	sudo aptitude upgrade	06:35
Kilos	aptitude should tell you if something is not lekker	06:35
Private_User	ok its running lets see what happens	06:36
Kilos	i had this prob when 12.04 just came out but who knows how i cured it	06:37
Private_User	ok cool it completed does not seem like any errors are there	06:37
Private_User	it says 0 needed to be upgraded or installed	06:37
Kilos	and what does additional in dash show you?	06:37
Kilos	this is very upsetting, 12.04 is supposed to just work	06:38
Private_User	huh?	06:39
Kilos	you know dash that top icon	06:39
Kilos	type in additional	06:39
Kilos	it should show additional drivers available	06:39
Kilos	like an auto lookup whats needed in the pc	06:40
Private_User	how do I run that?	06:42
Kilos	do you know the dash	06:43
Kilos	that top button on the launcher on the left	06:43
Private_User	ok dude please remeber if you a noobie I am what ever is below a noobie LOL	06:45
Private_User	I think you have lost me now	06:45
Kilos	lol	06:45
Kilos	you on unity hey?	06:45
Kilos	with the lancher panel on the left	06:46
Kilos	launcher	06:46
Kilos	the very top button/icon thingie is called the dash	06:46
Private_User	I am using Lubuntu?	06:48
Kilos	oh my goodness	06:50
Kilos	i forgot sorry	06:50
Kilos	lemme see what google says	06:51
Kilos	try sudo poweroff	06:53
Kilos	ThatGraemeGuy, will tail /var/log/syslog show why pc reboots instead of shutting down	06:54
Private_User	nope poweroff does the same reboots	06:55
Kilos	ok lets look here	06:57
Kilos	Preferences > Additional Drivers.	06:57
Kilos	you have preferences hey?	06:57
Private_User	I am there now	07:05
Private_User	hang on its still busy searching	07:05
Kilos	cool	07:05
Kilos	i go let sheep out quick	07:05
Private_User	ok it states No proprietary drivers are in use on this system	07:06
Kilos	and no options of whats needed?	07:08
Kilos	grrr	07:09
Private_User	nope its blank	07:09
Kilos	oh you using onboard graphics?	07:09
Kilos	no graphics card in there?	07:09
Kilos	hmm...	07:09
Private_User	nope no graphics card	07:10
Kilos	ok then we gotta find where that error is coming from	07:10
Kilos	inetpro, help man	07:11
Kilos	oh Private_User i found the boot splash stuff	07:12
Private_User	great	07:12
Kilos	on other pc	07:12
Kilos	sigh	07:12
Kilos	sudo nano /etc/default/grub	07:13
Kilos	delete quiet splash in	07:13
Kilos	GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash"	07:13
Kilos	then uncomment	07:13
Kilos	GRUB_TERMINAL=console	07:13
Kilos	uncomment means delete the #	07:14
Kilos	and do sudo update-grub	07:14
Private_User	:( still no cigar	07:21
Kilos	wb ThatGraemeGuy peer got you	07:21
Private_User	rebooting again	07:21
Kilos	ok lets go ask lubuntu Private_User	07:21
Kilos	type in here /j #lubuntu	07:21
Kilos	now we wait	07:25
Private_User	you know Kilos I did ask them earlier but I think there was nobody around then a guy did try but he left asking another to assist but not sure what happen to him	07:25
Kilos	lots of other channels take ages to help	07:25
Kilos	this is the friendliest most helpful channel on irc	07:26
Private_User	lol , I guess we will have to wait I will continue to google and I now understand what you were complaining about cause many of them are repeat solution from different sites and none of them working for me	07:27
Kilos	you can join my channel too Private_User then we wont fill pages here	07:27
Kilos	##kilos	07:27
Kilos	morning superfly	07:28
superfly	morning Kilos	07:29
inetpro	good mornings	07:58
inetpro	Private_User: what did you break?	07:58
Kilos	hi inetpro lubuntu 12.04 dont shutdown keeps rebooting	07:58
Kilos	tried lotsa stuffs	07:59
inetpro	is it not a hardware problem?	07:59
Kilos	sudo shutdown -h now reboots as well	07:59
Kilos	we asking you man	07:59
Kilos	if we knew we wouldnt ask	07:59
Private_User	lol inetpro, yeah Kilos and I have been trying many options to try and resolve	08:00
Kilos	we carrying on on my channel to save you scroll backs	08:00
inetpro	doesn't sound like a software problem to me	08:00
inetpro	so anything you install or re-install won't help	08:01
Private_User	nope	08:01
inetpro	but obviously you need to verify what I say	08:01
inetpro	boot from life CD	08:01
Private_User	ok	08:02
inetpro	or usb	08:02
* Kilos looks on to see the master at work		08:03
inetpro	uh	08:03
Private_User	booted from USB	08:03
inetpro	and what happens when you shutdown now?	08:04
inetpro	probably still going to just reboot	08:04
Private_User	ok let me check though I needed to do something else so I was still on the menu LOL another ID-10-T issue	08:05
Private_User	LOL	08:05
Private_User	ok waiting for it to boot from USB	08:05
Kilos	you think its hardware inetpro ?	08:08
Kilos	sjoe	08:08
inetpro	Kilos: yep	08:08
Kilos	but it worked till yesterday	08:09
inetpro	the shutdown command is very simple, not much that can go wrong with that	08:10
Kilos	ah i see the reasoning	08:10
Private_User	yep inetpro does the same	08:10
inetpro	and it's most likely exactly the same shutdown code/executable for every linux system out there	08:11
inetpro	you see	08:11
Private_User	but why would it suddenly stop working when it worked previously	08:11
* Kilos krap kop		08:11
Kilos	hi SmilyBorg wb	08:11
SmilyBorg	Hey there	08:11
inetpro	try this, as much as it sounds weird... disconnect your screen as it shuts down	08:12
Private_User	ok let me try	08:12
inetpro	do you have any other special peripherals connected to the PC?	08:13
inetpro	SmilyBorg: hello and wb	08:14
SmilyBorg	Thanks guys. Been a bit bored and lonely so figured IRC would be a good place to hang out while I have time on my hands	08:15
Private_User	nope that did not work inetpro	08:16
Kilos	sorry to hear about the job issue SmilyBorg	08:16
inetpro	Private_User: hmm...	08:16
SmilyBorg	yeah, being retrenched sucks	08:16
Private_User	ok that just reminded me I plugged in a apple iPod to recharge on that machine could that have changed any settings?	08:17
Private_User	but that has been unplugged	08:17
SmilyBorg	oh well, I have a 3rd round interview at a place on Friday. hopefully that will be fruitfull	08:17
inetpro	Private_User: I doubt it's any settings	08:17
Private_User	ok	08:18
inetpro	but if it is settings then it would be in the BIOS	08:18
Private_User	because it did work previously	08:18
Private_User	ok let me have a look at the BIOS settings	08:18
Kilos	good luck SmilyBorg	08:19
Kilos	hmm.. power and battery out for 10 mins inetpro ?	08:19
SmilyBorg	thanks Kilos	08:21
Kilos	any bios can be corrupt if there was win on there before	08:21
inetpro	SmilyBorg: with Kilos in here you'll never be lonely :-)	08:22
Kilos	cheeky	08:22
SmilyBorg	:-)	08:24
inetpro	SmilyBorg: more serious, I hope you find something soon... just keep trying	08:24
Private_User	ok reset BIOS to default settings no difference	08:26
inetpro	Private_User: what happens when you press the power button for a few seconds, does it shutdown?	08:26
Private_User	yep it does	08:26
SmilyBorg	thanks inetpro. I'm keeping a look out but not much happening in Durban. gonna have to start applying for things in JHbn and CPT, though I'm not particularly keen to move	08:26
Private_User	SmilyBorg, you should maybe try some freelancing while you wait that could help, also PNET, CareerJunction, Jobmail, etc you can upload you CV there and apply online and I recently found that LinkedIn helps as well you just need to update you profile	08:28
Kilos	Private_User, what bios you got?	08:28
Kilos	award hopefully	08:28
Private_User	Kilos, that is correct	08:29
Vince-0	Sup SmilyBorg!	08:29
SmilyBorg	Private_User: Yeah, gonna look at the freelancing. already had a few hits off of PNET	08:30
SmilyBorg	Hey Vince-0	08:30
inetpro	Kilos: I don't think it's the bios, must be hardware	08:30
Vince-0	Coffee tonight? There's something going on at the Factory	08:30
Kilos	whew	08:30
inetpro	SmilyBorg: maybe you have ideas for SmilyBorg	08:30
inetpro	oops for Private_User	08:30
Kilos	lol	08:30
SmilyBorg	Vince-0: maybe for a short while. Need to help Andrea pack for a trip to JHB	08:31
Private_User	what I don't understand is, it was working then yesterday I noticed it was not and I cannot be 100% sure of what changed	08:31
SmilyBorg	inetpro: maybe, what's wrong?	08:31
inetpro	Private_User: tell SmilyBorg	08:32
* inetpro has some work to be done		08:32
Private_User	when ever I try to shut down in Lubuntu it reboots the machine	08:32
Vince-0	SmilyBorg, I'm checkin the event now. May be a yawn	08:32
Private_User	tried both on the terminal and using the GUI	08:32
SmilyBorg	Private_User: so the system reboots rather than turning off?	08:33
Private_User	SmilyBorg, btw LinkedIn, this one friend of mine got an offer for a job in Australia that is how I know it works as well and my friend did not even apply they recruited	08:34
Private_User	SmilyBorg, that is correct	08:34
SmilyBorg	Private_User: interesting, I've update my details there so will see what happens.	08:34
SmilyBorg	Private_User: that is an odd one. never come across that happening before	08:35
SmilyBorg	brb	08:36
Private_User	yeah, is there any log file where I can check what may have changed on the system including any hardware changes?	08:45
inetpro	Private_User: could even be dust, I suggest opening the inside and re-seating components	08:45
Vince-0	SmilyBorg, http://www.pechakucha.org/cities/durban	08:45
Private_User	inetpro, interesting I think I will try that as well	08:45
Kilos	and blow the dust out if you can	08:45
Kilos	garage airline	08:45
Private_User	SmilyBorg: another thing I have learnt cause I was there where you are is that it can sometimes take up to 6 months before you can find something another option is to just hand you CV over to recruitment agencies	08:45
Private_User	sometimes more	08:45
Private_User	ok let me try cleaning the inside of the machine	08:45
Kilos	Private_User, remove the battery as well	08:45
Vince-0	jeeps this connection drops	08:47
Kilos	ohi deegee__ long time no see with this nick	08:50
Kilos	wb drussell	08:57
Private_User	hooray!!!	08:59
Private_User	success	08:59
Kilos	rofl fixed?	08:59
Kilos	\what a business	08:59
Private_User	removing the CMOS battery and re-inserting resolved the issue	08:59
Private_User	:D	08:59
Kilos	Maaz, inetpro ++	09:00
Kilos	who woulda thought it was hardware but the pro	09:00
inetpro	nee man Kilos, dit was jy wat dit genoem het	09:00
Kilos	nee man	09:00
Kilos	i havent had to battery out for a long time	09:01
inetpro	ek meen die battery storie	09:01
Private_User	but I also did remove some of the dust or what ever I could remove	09:01
Private_User	:)	09:01
inetpro	Private_User: well done!	09:01
Kilos	that was just an addon to your cleaning and reseating advice	09:01
Private_User	yep shutdown now works perfectly via terminal and GUI options	09:02
Kilos	Private_User, best way is with airline at garages with an old valve in the end of the wheel pumping pipe	09:02
nlsthzn	yeah the net split is over... alo uncle Kilos and all :)	09:02
Private_User	thanks inetpro and Kilos for all the help much appreciated	09:02
Kilos	thats why we are here Private_User	09:03
inetpro	Private_User: you're welcome	09:03
Kilos	sorry it took so long	09:03
Kilos	and as i said the most helpful irc channel	09:03
Kilos	we a good team here	09:03
Private_User	now I wondering what in the BIOS changed and how? (scratches head)	09:03
Kilos	i used to have it often with old pc	09:04
Kilos	many battery outs	09:04
Kilos	what mobo is it?	09:04
Kilos	hi psyatw	09:05
Kilos	gigabyte has lekker bios upgrade from xp	09:05
psyatw	hi Kilos	09:05
Kilos	at least it wasnt ubuntu hey Private_User	09:06
Kilos	makes me happy	09:06
Private_User	yep same here	09:06
SmilyBorg	back	09:07
Private_User	I looked into the setting of the BIOS again I cannot see anything very different and I even changed some setting back to what I saw it was before and it still shuts down	09:08
Private_User	so it could just be another setting that I cannot see	09:08
Kilos	ya somehow at times bios gets a bit corrupt and only battery out helps. the default settings keeps the bug there	09:09
Kilos	you got dual core cpu?	09:09
Kilos	then you can enable the threading thing for more speed	09:10
Private_User	not sure hey	09:10
Kilos	hmm...	09:10
Kilos	ok hang i got commands somewhere to check	09:10
Private_User	thanks	09:11
Kilos	cat /proc/cpuinfo	09:14
Private_User	thanks	09:14
Kilos	yw	09:15
Kilos	To count processor (including cores), enter:	09:15
Kilos	grep -c processor /proc/cpuinfo	09:15
Kilos	once google was quicker than hunting for where i saved the info	09:16
Private_User	CPU Cores: 1	09:16
Kilos	ok then no threading needed	09:17
Private_User	cool	09:18
Private_User	so we know its a GenuineIntel, Pentium 4 CPU 3.00GHz	09:18
Kilos	thats a good cpu that , i have it in other pc	09:20
Kilos	will fly with 2g ram	09:21
Private_User	yeah good CPU only issue I have is my RAM	09:21
Private_User	only 512MB	09:21
Private_User	and it has only 2 slots both with 256 each	09:22
Kilos	ddr ram?	09:22
Kilos	not ddr1 or 2	09:22
Kilos	thats scarce as rocking horse droppings	09:23
Kilos	hi gwood	09:25
Private_User	@ Kilos, LOL, its DDR I think	09:30
Kilos	eina i hunted everywhere	09:30
Kilos	got 2 ig cards but they clash so got one in each pc	09:30
Kilos	1g	09:31
Kilos	and when you find they want more for secondhand cards than 2g ddr3	09:32
Kilos	swines	09:32
Private_User	yeah I guess they know that it is rare	09:34
Squirm	afternoon	10:23
Kilos	hi Squirm	10:46
adeebnqo	I have a memory card protected by a password, anyone know how to reset it using ubuntu?	10:48
Kilos	hi adeebnqo	10:49
Kilos	what memory card?	10:49
adeebnqo	hello Kilos, its a micro sd card. I have an adapter so I can connect it directly to my pc --- I need way to mount it or smthng and reset the password	10:50
Kilos	whew	10:50
Kilos	i didnt know they put passwords om memory cards	10:51
Kilos	does you system see it?	10:51
Kilos	and the adapter is sd to what	10:51
adeebnqo	Nope. However, when I insert it on a phone--it wants a password	10:52
Kilos	what adapter	10:52
Kilos	to usb?	10:52
adeebnqo	the one that looks like a huge sd card but has a micro sd card slot	10:53
* Kilos has no idea what a sd card looks like huge or micro		10:57
DarkSurferZA	hi guys	12:31
DarkSurferZA	epic damage last night	12:31
Kilos	sjoe did you have to chop up the tree?	12:31
DarkSurferZA	tree dead	12:31
DarkSurferZA	dstv dead	12:32
Kilos	house the house	12:32
DarkSurferZA	xbox, just the power brick	12:32
Kilos	how is the house	12:32
DarkSurferZA	2 tv's dead	12:32
Kilos	thats bad news hey	12:32
DarkSurferZA	lightning hit the tree, split it in half, and hit the ground next to the tree	12:33
Kilos	what do insurance peeps say	12:33
charl	good afternoon	12:33
DarkSurferZA	the ground sploded spraying mud on my walls, and rupturing a water pip from the municipal mains	12:33
charl	Maaz: coffee on	12:33
* Maaz puts the kettle on		12:33
charl	hi DarkSurferZA	12:33
charl	hi Kilos	12:33
Kilos	hi charl	12:33
DarkSurferZA	insurance will pay (with hefty excess)	12:34
Kilos	oh the tree didnt damage the roof?	12:34
Kilos	ai1 them and their excesses	12:34
DarkSurferZA	but could take up to 2 weeks to sort out the claim for electronics	12:34
DarkSurferZA	yo charl	12:34
Kilos	why	12:34
DarkSurferZA	roof fine	12:34
DarkSurferZA	assessor will come out in 2 days	12:35
DarkSurferZA	4 days to assess root cause of damage to electronics	12:35
DarkSurferZA	insurance process claim and valuate goods	12:35
DarkSurferZA	FUUUUUuu!!!!!!!	12:35
Kilos	most likely no earth spike	12:35
DarkSurferZA	anyway, hope these guys sort out plumbing today still	12:36
Kilos	yeah	12:36
charl	sounds terrible DarkSurferZA	12:36
DarkSurferZA	how u guys doing?	12:36
charl	http://i.imgur.com/cPJEgDt.jpg	12:36
charl	much better than you, apparently :(	12:37
charl	sorry to hear about your troubles	12:37
DarkSurferZA	meh, such is life man. have days, and then have DAYS	12:37
Maaz	Coffee's ready for charl!	12:37
charl	Maaz: thanks	12:37
Maaz	charl: Okay :-)	12:37
Kilos	we fine. only got half a mil of rain though	12:38
DarkSurferZA	but thanks for the concern. dunno where i am gonna play xbox for a while, but again, life right?	12:38
Kilos	you play xbox lots?	12:38
charl	eating japanese mochi now	12:38
charl	with red bean paste inside	12:38
DarkSurferZA	of all the problems i could have, these are good ones.	12:38
DarkSurferZA	Kilos: love xbox man. playing tons of GTA V	12:39
Kilos	eeek you have worse ones?	12:39
DarkSurferZA	was playing tons of GTA V	12:39
Trixar_za	GTA isn't so bad	12:39
Kilos	ive never seen one	12:39
DarkSurferZA	no, dont have worse problems, just think they could be worse.	12:39
Trixar_za	Just gets a bad rep - kind of like Doom and funny enough, Night Trap	12:40
DarkSurferZA	ie, no internet.	12:40
Trixar_za	Night Trap is why games have a rating and age restrictions	12:40
DarkSurferZA	or no electricity.	12:40
charl	internet goes down, life stops	12:40
DarkSurferZA	scary right?	12:40
charl	"why live" and jump off a building	12:40
Trixar_za	The funny part is that it doesn't feature anything of what it was accused	12:40
charl	" i can't take it anymore "	12:40
Trixar_za	None of the politicians or Media people actually played it to see	12:41
DarkSurferZA	Trixar_za: agree, but it is just the themes i guess	12:41
Trixar_za	Yeah, but you get worse things in real life	12:41
Trixar_za	Hell, in SA we tend to LIVE GTA	12:41
Trixar_za	:P	12:41
DarkSurferZA	if ur kids are crap at life, blame music, games, internet, porn, government, schools, and just about everyone else	12:42
Trixar_za	Except the parents, hey? :P	12:42
charl	whhaaha, live gta	12:42
Trixar_za	I heard the funniest warning yesterday	12:42
Trixar_za	It was for an adult podcast on CCMixter	12:42
DarkSurferZA	well, i havent seen anyone fly a crop duster in to the back of a bomber before	12:43
DarkSurferZA	Trixar_za: yeah, what was it?	12:43
Trixar_za	"This Podcast is indented for persons 18 years and older. If that is not you, then turn this off immediately, go find your parents and tell them they're doing a bad job parenting you."	12:43
Trixar_za	Intended*	12:44
charl	lol	12:44
Kilos	sjoe	12:44
DarkSurferZA	lol	12:44
DarkSurferZA	so much lol	12:44
DarkSurferZA	but the truth though.	12:44
charl	you can't blame everything on the parents either though	12:45
Trixar_za	It's even funnier if you hear how she says it	12:45
Kilos	nope not everything	12:45
Kilos	when kids get to school then parents know nothing and teach knows all	12:45
DarkSurferZA	what? if they can blame everyone else, then everyone else should be able to blame them.	12:46
charl	lol	12:46
DarkSurferZA	Just kidding,	12:46
Trixar_za	In what universe? Generally they disregard the teachers	12:46
charl	DarkSurferZA: i was meaning to speak to you about something... you do pen testing right?	12:46
Kilos	oh ya times have changed some hey	12:46
DarkSurferZA	charl: maybe..... it depends	12:47
charl	DarkSurferZA: i am busy designing a protocol for instant messaging / voip / file sharing with encryption as a base	12:47
DarkSurferZA	Ok, sounds cool	12:47
charl	DarkSurferZA: i use xmpp right now but the main two problems are that a) there must be some data retention on the server (e.g. user accounts) and there is no built-in redundancy	12:48
charl	the second should be b) of course :)	12:48
charl	what i have so far is: http://charl.eu/e2ee/	12:48
DarkSurferZA	Lemme have a look	12:48
charl	if you happen to have some time to look it over and give me your thoughts, please do	12:48
charl	thanks !	12:48
Trixar_za	http://ccmixter.org/files/RoseCaraway/36017	12:49
Trixar_za	That's the one with the warning	12:49
DarkSurferZA	charl: only had a brief look, havent had time to process yet, but itsounds like an IM protocol built on tor and perspectives	12:54
charl	no definitely nothing to do with tor	12:54
charl	i want to stay the heck away from it	12:55
DarkSurferZA	Yeah, i mean from a framework perspective.	12:55
DarkSurferZA	Also have you seen the perspectives project?	12:55
charl	it takes end-to-end encryption seriously though	12:55
charl	can't say i have, although it does sound vaguely familiar	12:55
charl	this one? http://perspectives-project.org/	12:56
DarkSurferZA	Couple of issuesmay arise with identity theft, and NSA snooping but it could work given some tinkering	12:57
DarkSurferZA	Also doesnt allow for users to recover their identities because they own their identities. That is a problem for the typical end user	12:58
DarkSurferZA	Let me apply my brain here properly and we can chat in a different forum	12:58
DarkSurferZA	Sure other people here dont want to be bored by my ramblings.	12:58
charl	identity theft? sorry i don't get it	12:58
charl	and it's supposed to circumvent nsa snooping by keeping all the keys on the client only	12:59
Kilos	no man	12:59
charl	so even the server operators have the absolute minimum access to information	12:59
Kilos	we all wanna see how clever you are	12:59
DarkSurferZA	The problem with certificates, especially asmetric certs is that the public keysare	13:01
DarkSurferZA	Crap	13:01
DarkSurferZA	Keys a	13:01
DarkSurferZA	Urgh!!! Gimme a sec. Keyboard fail	13:01
charl	np :)	13:01
DarkSurferZA	Try again	13:02
DarkSurferZA	Public keys crypt messages in a static manner, right? So if you crypt "hi" 7 times with the same pub key	13:03
DarkSurferZA	You get the same cipher text	13:03
DarkSurferZA	Right?	13:03
Kilos	charl, question	13:04
DarkSurferZA	If the public key, is derived from the private key, and you have the cipher text as well as plain text, it is about filling in the blanks to get the private key	13:04
DarkSurferZA	Right?	13:04
Kilos	cant you build otr into it	13:04
Kilos	so pcs encrypt to each other	13:04
DarkSurferZA	Kilos: tor is a bad idea, but charl has a workable idea in here.just needs tweaking	13:04
Kilos	oh is otr tor?	13:05
DarkSurferZA	Most end users dont like tor. Except if ur buying on the silk road that is	13:05
DarkSurferZA	Tor	13:05
DarkSurferZA	The onion router	13:05
Kilos	i dunno what that is	13:05
charl	yeah tor is slow and it's very often abused	13:05
Kilos	pidgin otr works well	13:06
Kilos	is that also tor?	13:06
charl	i was looking at having maximum two "servers" between the clients	13:06
charl	also so that you can transfer for example large files	13:06
charl	at a usable speed	13:06
DarkSurferZA	Anyway, charl, there are some cool ideas here man. I aint putting it down.	13:07
charl	Kilos: otr is another encryption technique, i didn't know about it at the time, but that is worth looking into	13:07
charl	Kilos: i drafted this spec based on openpgp instead but otr seems to have some advantages above openpgp	13:07
DarkSurferZA	But, if it were to work in a useable fashion, the client and the server would agree on a session key to be used in conjunction with the pgp keys	13:08
Kilos	the otr function used on xchat is a setup pain but pidgin is very simple	13:08
charl	the main advantage seems to be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_secrecy	13:08
charl	"In cryptography, forward secrecy (also known as perfect forward secrecy or PFS[1]) is a property of key-agreement protocols that ensures that a session key derived from a set of long-term keys will not be compromised if one of the long-term keys is compromised in the future."	13:09
charl	DarkSurferZA: yes the connections between the client and server and between servers are all tls	13:09
charl	DarkSurferZA: and then openpgp as an extra layer on top of tls for end-to-end encryption	13:09
DarkSurferZA	Also, the client would determin a circuit for sending messages, and the server could use a different one for their responses.	13:09
DarkSurferZA	Circuit = servers hops routing etc	13:09
charl	DarkSurferZA: exactly!	13:10
charl	so even if you can intercept a particuar path then you don't get the full communication	13:10
charl	you only have part of it	13:10
charl	so you could for example alternate between servers in different parts of the world	13:10
charl	so even if the encryption can be broken that adds an extra layer of difficulty	13:10
charl	you could even split up a single message and route parts of it through different servers	13:11
DarkSurferZA	This requires each server to be able to route traffic on a session bassis, as well as for the client to open multiple circuits to a host	13:11
charl	if you want to go full paranoia mode	13:11
charl	yeah my idea is that the clients determine the route	13:11
charl	and the client can do that in an ad-hoc fashion	13:11
charl	the idea is that the server needs to know the absolute minimum	13:11
charl	trust the client, not the server	13:12
DarkSurferZA	The problem is that the redundancy componant has a fail aspect that the NSA would abuse to harvest messages	13:12
DarkSurferZA	I.e. if the NSA controls1 host in a circuit, they could see the whole message.	13:12
charl	if you could take certain servers down	13:12
charl	hmmm not sure i understand	13:13
charl	in a circuit yes but the idea would be to use different circuits	13:13
DarkSurferZA	You dont need to take them down. Think water through some channels.	13:13
DarkSurferZA	If i want more water to go through 1 channel, i just make the other channel appear more full. Get it?	13:13
charl	yeah... but explain "more full"	13:14
Kilos	tap half closed	13:14
DarkSurferZA	Send it lots of work, so your client talks to other hosts	13:15
DarkSurferZA	Kilos: exactly	13:15
Kilos	decreasing flow in one pipe increases flow in other pipe	13:15
charl	that is possible yesah	13:15
charl	*yeah	13:15
charl	that could indeed be used as one avenue of attack	13:15
charl	however, the clients could also be "smart" about it	13:15
charl	for example, if sending messages through certain servers persistently fails, warn the user for example	13:15
charl	i don't think this is an issue you would very easily be able to work around actually, tough one	13:16
DarkSurferZA	No, because it wouldnt fail	13:16
DarkSurferZA	It would just process (successfully) fewer messages	13:16
DarkSurferZA	And the wider channel gets more of your messages	13:16
charl	but how would the client know the server is too "full" if no messages fail	13:16
charl	unless the server tells the client "sorry i'm being overloaded right now"	13:17
DarkSurferZA	The recipient acknowledges the message id right?	13:17
charl	but in that case the client could once again warn the user "be careful"	13:17
charl	yeah correct	13:17
charl	after it's been decrypted as part of the message	13:17
DarkSurferZA	So if i send 100 messages, and the first 10 go out	13:17
DarkSurferZA	5 through channel 1, and 5 through channel 2	13:18
DarkSurferZA	5 responses arive from channel 1, and so far, 0 from channel 2	13:18
DarkSurferZA	Client sends another 5 to channel 1, still waiting for responses from channel 2	13:18
DarkSurferZA	40 messages into channel 1 later, 5 responses are received from channel 2	13:19
charl	ah i see, so this is how you funnel	13:19
DarkSurferZA	90% of traffic is forces through a potentially bad gateway	13:19
charl	yeah makes sense	13:19
charl	but in a case like this, the client once again needs to be intelligent	13:20
charl	to split messages up and where it can't be, warn the user	13:20
charl	add more servers to create more paths	13:20
charl	but this could also happen on the receiving end	13:20
DarkSurferZA	Again, it is complicated.	13:20
charl	so the client needs to know the exact path to the other client, and once again would need to be intelligent about it and warn the user	13:20
DarkSurferZA	Because using this method, the NSA would "blacklist" all good servers	13:20
charl	"something's up be careful the network is under attack"	13:21
charl	yeah it's possible, you have a very good point, that definitely needs to be addressed	13:21
charl	you are like the first person that i speak to about this that actually has some good feedback, this is what i'm looking for, thanks :)	13:22
DarkSurferZA	Also, the client should never know the path of the message, as that requires a known circuit, somewhere in a readable message body	13:22
DarkSurferZA	Np	13:22
DarkSurferZA	I.e. meta data has more use to me on a large scale than data	13:22
DarkSurferZA	So if i know who talks to who the most, and i can fingerprint messages by the circuit they travel on, then i can id users	13:23
charl	i was thinking, the client selects a particular server it is connected to, and selects one of the servers the receiving end is connected to, and tells its server "here is the message, route it to this user on this server"	13:23
DarkSurferZA	The best defense i can come up with is 2 fold	13:23
DarkSurferZA	Ok, wait, let me hear more	13:24
charl	but that is in plaintext (well, not plaintext, it's over tls of course) and then sends the end-to-end encrypted part of the message after that	13:24
charl	so the most the servers could know is, this user is talking to that user	13:24
charl	absolutely nothing more	13:25
DarkSurferZA	So if a server can read the source, and destination, as well as the users desired next hop (to form a circuit), that must be clear text	13:25
DarkSurferZA	Right?	13:25
charl	the idea of course is that servers retain absolutely no data, but of course you can't force that down	13:25
charl	yes that first part yes	13:25
charl	it's almost like a packet with source and destination, but the data inside the packet is encrypted	13:25
charl	so the only data you could read if you are sitting on one of the servers is who is talking to who, but you don't know what they are saying (unless you can crack the crypto of course)	13:26
charl	and the end-to-end crypto is a transaction that is made between two clients, you could have the possiblity for multiple types of crypto, layered within each other	13:26
charl	you could also negotiate session keys etc	13:26
DarkSurferZA	Right. So the data inside is the message, but the metadata outside (user 1, talking to user 2, wants traffic to hop from me to server x to end user) is in a publicly readable format	13:27
DarkSurferZA	Otherwise the serverr couldnt route the message, right	13:27
charl	yes, well not publicly readable, but readable by both servers yes	13:27
charl	exactly	13:27
charl	that is unfortunately necessary at this point, i haven't managed to figure out anything better	13:28
DarkSurferZA	Cool,so thats what i meant. The meta data, is of more value on a large scale, than the data.	13:28
DarkSurferZA	Data forms part of a targeted attack,meta data falls at the drag net	13:28
charl	yes, unfortunately	13:29
charl	the idea is however that each client has a list of trusted servers	13:29
DarkSurferZA	So, if i were looking for a terrorist for example (#noNSA)	13:29
DarkSurferZA	And i busted 1 user	13:29
charl	by trusted i mean only trust any server as far as absolutely necessary, no more	13:29
charl	but the server also, by necessity again, has to know the client's ip address for example, no way around it	13:30
DarkSurferZA	And my metadata said he spoke to 17 people.	13:30
DarkSurferZA	17 people are suspects	13:30
DarkSurferZA	I can fingerprint those people based on the way they speak, even if they change ip addresses	13:31
DarkSurferZA	I can then read how much they speak to each other	13:32
DarkSurferZA	Then build a profile	13:32
DarkSurferZA	Then follow ip addresses as their fingerprints come online.	13:32
DarkSurferZA	Then have target attacks launched against each host	13:32
DarkSurferZA	For example, i have disclosed a 0 day to MSFT last week which allows me to access any network / service using NTLM	13:33
DarkSurferZA	Users always fail targeted attacks, so the idea is for a client to be anonymous, private, and untraceable.	13:34
DarkSurferZA	If for whatever reason they are compromised, they client must be amneasiac	13:35
DarkSurferZA	The only way this is possible is to design the solution from the ground up assumng that each server is compromised	13:35
DarkSurferZA	I have some brain farts at the moment on how to mitigate most of what we mentioned, but i need to organise them into meaningful thoughts	13:36
DarkSurferZA	I.e. broadcast your message with a random number of hops in the circuit (1-5), and use a raid 5 type arrangement where each message is broadcast to a random % of your server list	13:38
DarkSurferZA	But never a meaningfull % to any 1 host	13:38
DarkSurferZA	Also would need a notary principal, because signatures can be forged	13:39
DarkSurferZA	charl: i lose you man?	13:40
Kilos	he just changing gears	13:42
charl	hi sorry	13:46
charl	got interrupted	13:46
charl	DarkSurferZA: sounds really interesting	13:48
charl	i'm not trying to create another tor though, i'm trying to keep this relatively simple	13:48
charl	but you have some very interesting ideas here above	13:48
charl	DarkSurferZA: sorry i gotta get some work done on this end, shall we go off and do some more thinking, let it sink in and catch up in a couple of days? i really like your thinking	13:58
Xethron	Afternoon everyone	14:04
Xethron	Maaz: coffee on	14:05
* Maaz washes some mugs		14:05
Xethron	Maaz: coffee please	14:05
Maaz	Xethron: Now now, we don't want anyone getting caffeine overdoses	14:05
Xethron	:(	14:06
Xethron	But I haven't had one yet	14:06
Xethron	Fine, I'll go make it myself	14:06
Kilos	hi Xethron	14:08
Kilos	Maaz, coffee please	14:08
Maaz	Kilos: Alrighty	14:08
Kilos	Maaz, large	14:08
Maaz	In a beer mug just for you Kilos	14:08
superfly	DarkSurferZA: I'm trying to figure out the URL that a device is making a connection to over HTTPS - any ideas? (I'm playing around)	14:08
Maaz	Coffee's ready for Xethron and Kilos!	14:09
Kilos	Maaz, ty	14:09
Maaz	You are welcome Kilos	14:09
Xethron	Maaz: ty	14:12
Maaz	You are welcome Xethron	14:12
Kilos	all good Xethron ?	14:13
Xethron	mostly yes	14:13
Xethron	Just busy :)	14:13
Kilos	good	14:13
* Kilos waits for next storm. saw a pic sis got from youtube of the lightening in sandton last night		14:14
Kilos	sjoe	14:14
DarkSurferZA	Yo superfly	14:21
DarkSurferZA	Soz man, missed that	14:21
superfly	hey DarkSurferZA	14:21
DarkSurferZA	What kind of device	14:21
superfly	no worries	14:21
superfly	an iPod	14:22
DarkSurferZA	Download the free version of burp proxy online, then setup your proxy settings on the ipod	14:22
DarkSurferZA	Make it point to your running version of burp proxy	14:23
DarkSurferZA	Otherwise, if you want to catch alltraffic from your ipod, use a combination of wireshark, and an arp poison on the network	14:24
Vince-0	!	14:58
kbmonkey	hello	15:51
Kilos	hello kbmonkey	16:50
kbmonkey	hi. I go eat dinner - got black beans and brown rice. yum.	16:56
kbmonkey	and hear thunder again. ai!	16:56
Kilos	haha ok	16:56
Kilos	how is this for lightening http://imageshack.com/i/2oqvdnj	17:13
Kilos	ask DarkSurfer he felt the after effects and is still feeling it	17:13
Private_User	thunder storm, gonna have to log off and shutdown cheers people	17:58
Private_User	later	17:58
kbmonkey	ja its hitting here now	18:04
kbmonkey	lots of lightning	18:04
Kilos	the heavens are angry with us	18:09
Kilos	hi nlsthzn wb	18:32
Kilos	night all. sleep tight	18:32
Kilos	more is nog n dag	18:32
nlsthzn	good night	18:32
inetpro	good evening	19:21
charl	hi inetpro	19:30
charl	hi psychicist	19:30
inetpro	hi charl	19:31
psychicist	hi charl	19:33
psychicist	hi inetpro	19:33
inetpro	hello psychicist	19:33
kbmonkey	evening. how goes alll?	19:52
kbmonkey	looking at the cone mua, it seems nice so far.	19:54
charl	hi kbmonkey	20:03
kbmonkey	hello 0/	20:03

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