[07:01] <MooDoo> morning all
[08:11] <BigRedS> Goood Morning!
[08:57] <Myrtti> meh
[08:59] <MooDoo> Myrtti: and a good morning to you :)
[08:59] <Myrtti> atleast it's not Tuesday
[09:04] <diplo> Morning all
[09:05] <DGJones> Myrtti, Are you ok for a pm
[09:06] <GentileBen> As Myrtti's official PM gatekeeper, I'm going to allow this.
[09:07] <Myrtti> DGJones: if you don't expect coherent answers
[09:07] <Myrtti> GentileBen: meh
[09:07] <Myrtti> I feel like Tardar Sauce the cat
[09:08] <DGJones> Hmmh, /msg doesn't work in xchat
[09:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> morning all.
[09:14] <MooDoo> morning TheOpenSourcerer :)
[09:15] <diplo> So, keep getting reminded 13.10 is out and do i want to upgrade.. running 13.04 atm.. worth the update or buggy ?
[09:16] <Myrtti> my motto has been that upgrading non-LTS's is always a good idea
[09:17] <Myrtti> upgrading LTS's is a good idea when a new LTS is around
[09:17] <DGJones> diplo, PLus 13.04 wil be EOL in January
[09:17] <directhex> 13.10 is fine now
[09:18] <directhex> it was not fine when chromium would refuse to load Reddit Enhancement Suite
[09:18] <TheOpenSourcerer> Have been using it since release - it's OK. It was a bit rough around the edges but is no worse than 13.04.
[09:18] <diplo> Myrtti: I was the same earlier on, but had so many issues since 11.* with early upgrades I've left it a lot later now, I had to upgrade from 12.04 because I needed some specific package for some dev
[09:19] <diplo> OK great, I'm sold.
[09:19] <Myrtti> I'm debating myself should I be a guinea pig for LTS to LTS upgrade path
[09:20] <Myrtti> there's so many things in 12.04 bugging me out right now that I pine for an upgrade
[09:20] <DGJones> 13.04->13.10 was the smoothest upgrade I've ever had, absolutely zero errors/issues during upgrade, normally there's an odd, niggling error, but there was nothing this time
[09:20] <SuperMatt> DGJones: that's because almost nothing changed ;)
[09:20] <Myrtti> may I complain about something though, this is only related to Ubuntu and 12.04
[09:20] <SuperMatt> though if you're running 12.04 on a server, don't upgrade to 14.04 until you've tested your apache confs
[09:20] <SuperMatt> the upgrade from 2.2 to 2.4 caused a few issues for me
[09:21] <diplo> nah, I only just upgraded from natty to 12.04 on my server :)
[09:21] <ali1234> probably the biggest change in 13.04->13.10 is the indicator api changed quite a lot
[09:21] <Myrtti> I didn't know it was possible for IT support to order a laptop these days that doesn't come with inbuilt bluetooth. Well, I knew it was possible but I didn't know it was possible they were assuming that me not mentioning it means that I don't want it by default
[09:21] <SuperMatt> there weren't a lot of user facing changes, I'll admit to that
[09:22] <Myrtti> SuperMatt: no, just a laptop
[09:22] <Myrtti> no apaches or such running here
[09:22] <Myrtti> but it's a factory install of Ubuntu tweaked by IT support
[09:23] <Myrtti> so I'm feeling hesitant over nuking the partitions and doing a fresh install
[09:23] <DGJones> I spent quite a bit of time in the last week looking at laptops for my father-in-law and don't think any of them didn't come with bluetooth
[09:24] <Myrtti> DGJones: Dell and clueless IT support...
[09:25] <DGJones> Myrtti, Right, probably find it was more expensive as well as it was non-standard in not including BT
[09:25] <Myrtti> I do confess that I feel kinda guilty for not telling them exactly what I wanted
[09:25] <Myrtti> I just told them I want HD screen, webcam, fast enough CPU that I don't start crying when doing LaTeX and enough RAM that that won't be the bottleneck
[09:26] <Myrtti> "and please the smallest possible model you can order"
[09:26] <DGJones> Even so, they must have trawled the Dell website to find one without BT
[09:27] <SuperMatt> any reason why you don't want blutooth?
[09:27] <SuperMatt> I'm sure you can just switch it off in the bios/OS so it doesn't bother you
[09:28] <DGJones> Next time just tell them you IBM's Deep Blue in a laptop case with a 2560*1200 HD screen
[09:29] <DGJones> Powered by Unicorns
[09:29] <Myrtti> DGJones: by default the configuration list adds bluetooth it seems, but they must've taken it off and saved 4€
[09:30] <Myrtti> (so now I have requested for a Bluetooth 4.0 dongle that costs 15€)
[09:30] <diplo> Just get one of the tiny bluetooth usb things Myrtti £2-3
[09:30] <ali1234> £1 at poundland
[09:30] <ali1234> and they work fine
[09:30] <Myrtti> I'm not going to spend a penny of my own money, I've just put it on the Health and Safety purchase list
[09:30] <diplo> Even better, mines plugged into mine, forget about it as it's so small :)
[09:31] <Myrtti> from a reputable seller that does invoices
[09:35] <JamesTait> Morning all! :-D
[09:48] <jussi> Im still liking the Sony Vaio Pro 11
[09:48] <jussi> Mind, I had a play with a thinkpad carbon and dear $diety, if they came in an 11 inch...
[10:01] <DGJones> Hmmh, wierd problem ssh'd into a box at home, when I start byobu, its scrolling down the screen as though a carriage return is being pressed on the keyboard, but it doesn't happen outside of byobu
[10:03] <diplo> DGJones: I've had that
[10:03] <DGJones> Any idea how to fix it
[10:03] <diplo> Tmux issue, change to screen and it's fine.
[10:03] <DGJones> I've rebooted the machine
[10:04] <diplo> That was with putty
[10:04] <DGJones> Very odd, screen doesn't do it, I'll give it another reboot & just see if that fixes it
[10:04] <DGJones> Yes, same here
[10:04] <diplo> I'll find a post
[10:04] <ali1234> tsux :P
[10:05] <popey> can someone open System Log on ubuntu 13.10 and tell me if they see date stamps?
[10:05] <popey> in the syslog -> today area
[10:05] <ali1234> how do you open it?
[10:05] <SuperMatt> uhhh
[10:05] <SuperMatt> I just had it crash
[10:06] <SuperMatt> and again
[10:06] <popey> well, I use Dash -> sys... press enter
[10:06] <diplo> Did you run this DGJones byobu-select-backend
[10:06] <diplo> ?
[10:06] <SuperMatt> (gnome-system-log:28466): Gtk-CRITICAL **: _gtk_css_rgba_value_get_rgba: assertion 'rgba->class == &GTK_CSS_VALUE_RGBA' failed
[10:06] <SuperMatt> [1]    28466 segmentation fault (core dumped)  gnome-system-lo
[10:06] <DGJones> diplo, No, Just straight "byobu"
[10:06] <popey>  /usr/bin/gnome-system-log
[10:06] <SuperMatt> g
[10:07] <ali1234> not installed
[10:07] <diplo> To change from tmoux to screen DGJones
[10:07] <popey> gnome-system-log is the package
[10:07] <DGJones> Yeah, I'll give that a go
[10:07] <SuperMatt> keeps segfaulting on me
[10:07] <popey> oof
[10:07] <popey> that's a separate bug then
[10:07] <SuperMatt> yup \o/
[10:07] <ali1234> ok it works for me. what am i looking for?
[10:07] <popey> the dates in the syslog bit
[10:08] <popey> the dates are white on white for me
[10:08] <popey> so only show when I mouse select them
[10:08] <ali1234> they are grey on white for me
[10:08] <popey> hmm
[10:08] <popey> theme issue?
[10:08] <SuperMatt> mayhap
[10:08] <ali1234> i don't have anything that says "today"
[10:08] <popey> no triangle next to syslog?
[10:08] <SuperMatt> interesting
[10:08] <ali1234> no. actually it does say "today" though
[10:09] <popey> bug 1045602
[10:09] <SuperMatt> when I set my theme to ambiance, my segfault goes away
[10:09] <popey> seems already filed
[10:09] <SuperMatt> and my dates are white on white too
[10:09] <ali1234> http://imagebin.org/277700
[10:10] <popey> right, so theme issue
[10:10] <popey> the bug confirms it, thanks
[10:10] <SuperMatt> excellent bug hunting everyone. we make a great team
[10:11] <ali1234> i can't reproduce it by changing to ambiance/radiance
[10:11] <ali1234> might need to restart it though
[10:11] <ali1234> yes, there we go
[10:11] <SuperMatt> can't beliebe it segfaults for me just because I'm using a different theme
[10:11] <SuperMatt> numix, for what it's worth
[10:12] <ali1234> HA
[10:12] <ali1234> report that, they'll want to fix it
[10:12] <SuperMatt> sure
[10:12] <ali1234> i'll confirm it
[10:13] <popey> probably needs filing upstream in gnome
[10:13] <ali1234> numix isn't gnome
[10:13] <popey> not what i meant
[10:14] <popey> its not a bug in gnome-system-log?
[10:14] <ali1234> well, i meant report it to the numix devs
[10:14] <ali1234> gnome-system-log look slike yet more abandonware
[10:17] <popey> 3.9.3 in development..
[10:17] <ali1234> bug 1231439 already reported
[10:18] <ali1234> apparently all the shimmer themes except for the one i use cause it
[10:18] <popey> is there a terminal or tail type command that highlights new lines ?
[10:18] <ali1234> i don't understand. how do you highlight a none printing character?
[10:18] <popey> no, i mean new appended lines
[10:18] <popey> like, make the most recent lines added in the last 10 seconds bold
[10:18] <popey> then unbold after 10s
[10:19] <ali1234> hmm...
[10:19] <popey> so if i glance at the terminal running it I can see the new lines added recently
[10:20] <popey> ooh, multitail is nice
[10:22] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:23] <MooDoo> morning brobostigon
[10:23] <brobostigon> morning MooDoo
[10:23] <DJones> Does anybody know whether anything replaced the noip2 client
[10:26] <diplo> ddns DJones ?
[10:27] <MooDoo> DJones: http://askubuntu.com/questions/184704/the-noip2-no-ip-com-package-was-deleted-from-the-repository-now-what
[10:27] <popey> i do that inside my router
[10:27] <popey> lots show up if you apt-cache search dyndns
[10:28] <DJones> Cheers, was using dyndns, but for some reason its stopped working
[10:31] <popey> i use afraid.org now
[10:32] <diplo> I am with them but can't get my client to update, there is a bug already
[10:32]  * diplo looks
[10:32]  * brobostigon uses them also.
[10:33] <diplo> yeah ddclient is what I used, and it doesn't like updating
[10:36] <DJones> Ah well, ddclient with no-ip settings works fine
[10:37] <diplo> yeah. protocol should be set to freedns but it's unknown. Find the bug now
[10:38] <diplo> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ddclient/+bug/1092966
[10:39] <diplo> Seems I need 3.8.1
[10:48] <ali1234> popey: this should work: watch --color 'tail -n 100 /var/log/syslog | grep --color=always -E "$(date +"%h %d %H")|$"'
[10:48] <ali1234> but it doesn't :(
[10:48] <ali1234> instead of showing the colour, it just eats it instead
[10:48] <ali1234> tail -n 100 /var/log/syslog | grep --color=always -E "$(date +"%h %d %H")|$" works
[10:50] <ali1234> and why is whoopsie spamming syslog every minute?
[10:55] <popey> ooh!
[10:55] <popey> watch has a colour option, didnt know that
[10:56] <ali1234> but it doesn't work
[11:01] <SuperMatt> I didn't know that either \o/
[11:01] <SuperMatt> you guys know about ccze?
[11:02] <SuperMatt> tail -f /var/log/syslog | ccze
[11:02] <SuperMatt> nice coloured tail logs
[11:02] <popey> am I right in saying any nvidia card with 3 (or more) ports will be able to drive 3 monitors with the binary driver in twinview mode?
[11:03] <directhex> iirc yes
[11:03] <directhex> well, depends
[11:03] <popey> ta
[11:03] <popey> oh?
[11:03] <directhex> one of them has to be displayport afaik
[11:03] <popey> or hdmi?
[11:03] <popey> (my card has 2xDVI 1xmini HDMI)
[11:03] <directhex> the problem is pixel clocks
[11:04] <popey> is there a definitive way to find out, by browsing amazon or whatever?
[11:04] <directhex> you need a pixel clock to synchronize a display and a graphics card, so the card & monitor agree on the data rate
[11:04] <popey> Some spec thing to look for
[11:05] <directhex> consumer-level cards tend to only include two pixel clocks
[11:06] <directhex> displayport avoids the problem because it doesn't need a pixel clock (unless using a DP -> something else adapter)
[11:07] <popey> http://askubuntu.com/questions/226579/best-triple-head-display-setup
[11:07] <popey> guy in the comment says he has 2xDVI, 1xHDMI, 1xVGA
[11:07] <directhex> popey, which GPU do you have?
[11:08] <popey> its not for me
[11:08] <popey> oh, mine.. uh
[11:08] <popey> I'm asking for someone on my LUG
[11:09] <directhex> looks like geforce 600 series has 4 pixel clocks
[11:09] <directhex> 500 and below has 2
[11:10] <popey> ta
[11:29] <penguin42> directhex: By 'pixel clocks' is that the same thing as CRTCs ?
[11:31] <penguin42> because on things that support xrandr you can see in the output of xrandr --verbose   CRTCs lines showing which CRTCs can be used for a particular output
[11:32] <directhex> yeah
[11:42] <DJones> Hmmh, I wonder whether its worth saving for one of these http://bartongeorge.net/2013/11/15/introducing-sputnik-3-and-its-unofficial-big-brother/
[11:59] <StevenR> morning. Got a problem with one user's profile/account that I can't pin down. No videos play. Not youtube/vlc/mythtv - they all just stall until killed. It works with a fresh user, but I can't see anything that would block it. Both users are in the video/audio groups. Any ideas what would break this?
[11:59] <penguin42> StevenR: I wonder if it's actually audio related?
[12:00] <penguin42> StevenR: Do audio things work?
[12:00]  * StevenR goes to try
[12:01] <penguin42> StevenR: Either way, get a pctl info   from the working and none working users
[12:03] <StevenR> penguin42: no pctl command?
[12:03] <penguin42> pactl info
[12:06] <StevenR> penguin42: yes, audio related
[12:07] <StevenR> penguin42: pactl info on the broken user is stalling, returning nothing so far
[12:07] <penguin42> StevenR: OK, hmm
[12:07] <penguin42> StevenR: Is this multiple users logged in at the same time?
[12:07] <StevenR> no
[12:08] <penguin42> ps -eaf|grep pulse
[12:09] <DJones> diplo: I found out why byobu was scrolling up when using putty, its because Ubuntu expects UTF8 whereas putty defaults to ISO-8859 and for some reason it was causing confusions/scrolling, changing the translation in putty to UTF8 fixed the issue
[12:11] <StevenR> penguin42: there's a "start-pulseaudio-x11" running as the broken user that appears stalled
[12:11] <popey> StevenR: what are you running there? Ubuntu?
[12:11] <StevenR> yes
[12:12] <penguin42> StevenR: Ooh never seen that
[12:12] <penguin42> StevenR: You should just see a /usr/bin/pulseaudio --start --log-target=syslog
[12:12] <popey> what does "pulseaudio -v --check" say?
[12:13] <popey> also, grep autospawn /etc/pulse/client.conf
[12:13] <StevenR> popey: ; autospawn = yes
[12:14] <StevenR> popey: pulseaudio -v --check is stalled
[12:14]  * penguin42 would be tempted to nuke ~/.config/pulse   kill that hanging process and see what happens on a logout/in
[12:14] <popey> also ~/.pulse
[12:15] <popey> I would also do the magic fix... "sudo apt-get install ubuntu-desktop^" :D
[12:15] <penguin42> and walk around the machine 3 times clockwise
[12:15] <popey> don't forget to draw a pentagram on the floor
[12:20] <StevenR> hurrah!
[12:20] <penguin42> popey: Must have been the pentagram!
[12:20] <popey> the pentagram worked huh?
[12:20] <StevenR> .pulse and .pulse-cookie gone
[12:20] <popey> :D
[12:21] <diplo> ooh good work DJones, I'd never thought of that :/
[12:22] <DJones> diplo: It was a lucky google search
[12:22] <DJones> (Other search engines are available)
[12:22] <StevenR> popey: penguin42: Thanks. all working now. :D
[12:22] <penguin42> good good
[12:23] <penguin42> StevenR: I guess one of those config/state files got into a mess and for some reason it screwed up the next startup
[12:23]  * StevenR nods
[12:26] <diplo> I think I went for the first option.
[13:28] <ali1234> popey: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6437455/
[13:29] <ali1234> this was unnecessarily difficult to achieve due to all the stupid ways python and the shell buffer things
[13:29] <MartijnVdS> $|++;
[13:29] <popey> golly
[13:32] <popey> does it work? ☻
[13:32] <popey> i just get a blank screen
[13:32] <ali1234> unpossible
[13:33] <popey> oh, i need to specify a parameter?
[13:34] <ali1234> no?
[13:34] <ali1234> just pipe a command in to it
[13:34] <popey> i just get a blank window
[13:34] <popey> ahh
[13:34] <popey> of course
[13:34] <ali1234> such as tail somefile
[13:35] <popey> oh thats awesome
[13:35] <popey> thanks
[13:35] <ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6437473/ <- this takes a parameter: number of seconds to highlight the new lines
[13:36] <ali1234> it buffers up to the last 4MB of log
[13:36] <ali1234> usually this means the last 1000 lines, lines can be up to 4096 bytes
[13:37] <popey> brilliant, just what i needed.
[13:37] <ali1234> i dunno what will happen if the line gets split
[13:37] <popey> now can you code me up a vga cable?
[13:38] <ali1234> oh and it writes out the entire histroy every 0.2 seconds so in theory it can blast 20mb/sec onto your terminal, so watch out for that
[13:39] <ali1234> that needs fixing really
[13:44] <popey> my cpu keeps getting throttled when the temp is over some threshold
[13:44] <popey> but it only does it momentarily, but it does it a lot
[13:45] <MartijnVdS> popey: PC or laptop?
[13:45] <MartijnVdS> popey: new or old?
[13:45] <popey> x220 in docking station
[13:45] <MartijnVdS> (dusty or not, but I guess you've checked that)
[13:45] <popey> been a problem for ages
[13:45] <popey> nah
[13:45] <popey> cleaned it out and it made no difference
[13:46] <MartijnVdS> Lenovo design fial? (docking station blocks ports?)
[13:46] <popey> luckily its easy to clean
[13:46] <popey> yes
[13:46] <popey> no
[13:46] <popey> no, ports are clear
[13:46] <popey> it does it when not in the dock too, just not as often
[13:46] <MartijnVdS> does the docking station itself heat up with use?
[13:46] <popey> i am told by someone in the know that its a design fault, it cant dump the heat from the i7
[13:47] <popey> hard to tell
[13:47] <MartijnVdS> I'm quite happy with my XPS-12 btw
[13:47] <MartijnVdS> I had to order a laptop between the previous "Developer edition" going "out of print" and the new one being announced..
[13:47] <popey> tempted to sell this and get something else which doesn't work in a dock but has 1080p screen
[13:47] <MartijnVdS> so I got the XPS-12 rotating screen one
[13:48] <popey> wow, i can trigger cpu over speed by opening gnome terminal
[13:49] <popey> sometimes..
[13:49] <MartijnVdS> wow, that's bad
[13:50] <penguin42> popey: How long have you had it?
[13:52] <popey> Order Date: 27 January 2012
[13:53] <penguin42> popey: I mean if it was a design fault then EU what-ever thingy, but it's very hard to actually prove it
[13:53] <popey> will call lenovo and start the process anyway
[13:56] <popey> top - 13:56:49 up 9 days,  5:36,  5 users,  load average: 0.46, 1.21, 1.10
[13:56] <popey> and its 80 degrees
[14:02] <mungbean> rip-off merchants on amazon really annoy me. how can you search only amazon sales rather than 3rd party?
[14:03] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: when searching, it's in the column on the left I think
[14:03] <mungbean> items that should sell for £2.50 are appaering £85 all spammed by the same seller
[14:03] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: you can also report those
[14:03] <mungbean> are there rules about it?
[14:04] <mungbean> nothing o nthe left for "viewmaster thomas"
[14:04] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: yeah, there are. They can't do things like "£1 item, £100 shipping" for instance
[14:04] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: let me check
[14:04] <popey> filter on the left, last thing
[14:05] <popey> says "seller"
[14:05] <popey> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=sr_in_-2_p_6_3?rh=n%3A468292%2Ck%3Aquadcopter%2Cp_6%3AA3P5ROKL5A1OLE&bbn=468292&keywords=quadcopter&ie=UTF8&qid=1384783475&rnid=367778011
[14:05] <mungbean> not appearing on mine.
[14:06] <mungbean> i can only filter delivery option, brand, dept.
[14:07] <popey> its quite far down
[14:07] <popey> after you have searched
[14:07] <popey> maybe assumes that you already have results in your search from amazon.co.uk
[14:08] <mungbean> http://i.imgur.com/YpBqkWN.png
[14:09] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: yeah, that probably means there's only one merchant, so you can't filter more
[14:09] <mungbean> that was a general viewmaster reels search, lots of "merchants"
[14:09] <mungbean> weird
[14:11] <ali1234> aw, i jst tried to scroll your screenshot
[14:11] <mungbean> ihihih
[14:11] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: http://i.imgur.com/wjANVCD.jpg
[14:41] <GentileBen> mungbean, your nick isn't very exciting.
[14:41] <GentileBen> Aren't there more dynamic beans you can name yourself after?
[14:43] <mungbean> i'm changing at christmas
[14:46]  * TheOpenSourcerer instantly thinks of borlotti
[14:54] <MooDoo> mungbean: what to?  broad?  backed? jumping? ;)
[14:54] <MooDoo> *baked
[14:57] <TheOpenSourcerer> butter, green, has (lol)
[14:57] <MooDoo> lol
[14:58] <GentileBen> Mr
[14:59] <GentileBen> "Butterbean" sounds like a term of endearment amongst vegetarians.
[14:59] <GentileBen> "I love you, my little butterbean..."
[15:02] <GentileBen> What about black beans?
[15:02] <GentileBen> "Hey fool stay out of my pod yo!"
[15:03] <GentileBen> mungbean's family reunion http://farm1.static.flickr.com/139/377904658_288e03e282.jpg
[15:04] <MooDoo> GentileBen: I assume you know mungbean ?
[15:05] <GentileBen> I do, very well.
[15:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> "Pinto!"
[15:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> That's an exciting sounding name
[15:06] <mgdm> it's a chain of Mexican fast food places, too
[15:07] <mgdm> they do burritos. Which I now want.
[15:07] <TheOpenSourcerer> Oooh er. Never knew that.
[15:08] <mgdm> Oh, they're only in Scotland so far.
[15:08] <GentileBen> As long as they stay north of the wall.
[15:09] <GentileBen> The Scots are like the White Walkers if they had a higher birth rate.
[15:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> We'll build it back up again if they vote to leave. Keep the barbarians out of our green and (sometimes)pleasant land :-)
[15:09] <mgdm> I have no idea what you're on about, but I'm going to take it as an insult
[15:16]  * dwatkins_ pops in, sees his home is being talked about in what appears to be a negative fashion, and disappears again
[15:17] <DJones> popey: Any sign of your N7 update yet?
[15:24] <popey> nope
[15:24] <popey> and the link to the android aosp file was 404 last time i tried
[15:24] <popey> oh there now https://developers.google.com/android/nexus/images#nakasikrt16o
[15:25] <DJones> Just been reading a few postings about it, mainly suggesting it would be the US first then the rest of the world in stages after 2 weeks
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> that's the factory images
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> you could use those to upgrade non-destructively if you want
[15:26] <DJones> .... COuld do, but much simpler to wait patiently...
[15:29] <popey> how can you upgrade non-destructively?
[15:31] <MartijnVdS> popey: you download the image from there ( make sure it's the one for your version of the device, re: wifi/3g/etc.)
[15:31] <MartijnVdS> popey: then.. let me look it up :)
[15:31] <popey> step one done
[15:33] <MartijnVdS> popey: I'm assuming you have adb/the android sdk
[15:33] <daftykins> ooh 4.4 for the Nexus 4 posted
[15:33] <popey> i do ☻
[15:34] <DJones> Doesn't that do a full wipe & install so you have to reinstall all your apps & settings, which to me does sound pretty destructive
[15:34] <MartijnVdS> popey: you untar that file
[15:34] <GentileBen> Any Scots in here?
[15:35] <GentileBen> ME MAN FROM SOUTH OF WALL. ME BRING FIRE AND JOBSEEKERS' ALLOWANCE
[15:35] <GentileBen> I think they got the message.
[15:35] <DJones> !guidelines | GentileBen
[15:35] <gordonjcp> !ops | GentileBen
[15:36] <Myrtti> what on earth
[15:36] <DJones> GentileBen: This isn't #Defocus, Ubuntu guidelines apply here
[15:38] <MartijnVdS> popey: hmm.. that flash script does a "fastboot erase userdata", which is scary.. it also does "-w" (= wipe data) when writing the update.zip
[15:38] <MartijnVdS> popey: you'll have to remove the -w for sure, and possibly the userdata erase, but I'm not sure about the last one
[15:38] <MartijnVdS> popey: xda-developers probably have a HOWTO somewhere on their N7 forums
[15:39] <popey> ☻
[15:42] <popey> tbh i dont care too much if i wipe the device
[15:42] <popey> I only have 2 apps on it I actually use
[15:44] <daftykins> the 4.3 update caused a cache bug to my Nexus 4 that made 'Android OS' take up over 33% battery whilst on, dropping a 3 day runtime to 1.5
[15:44] <daftykins> so i kind of like the idea of clean installs even on phones now >_<
[15:44] <daftykins> when i set up smartphones for clients, i apply all updates then factory reset before first configure
[15:45] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: I had that bug today with "Google Play Services", turning phone off & on fixed it for me
[15:45] <daftykins> interesting
[15:46] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: but that's a Nexus 5
[15:50] <popey> boom, done
[15:50] <MartijnVdS> popey: with or without wipe?
[15:51] <popey> just ran flash-all
[15:51] <popey> sending 'system' (611878 KB)...
[15:51] <popey> wheee
[15:51] <MartijnVdS> ok, so you wiped it. Fair enough :)
[15:52] <popey> i only use it as my second screen running irssinotifier and tune in radio
[15:52] <MartijnVdS> Not as an Ubuntu test platform?
[15:55] <popey> not that one
[15:55] <popey> i have two
[15:56] <popey> plus we didnt focus much on tablets last cycle, but will this one
[15:56] <popey> so will probably switch it later
[15:59] <popey> wow, takes ages
[16:00] <AlanBell> popey: what are the odds of it working on the tesco hudl?
[16:00] <popey> so when i said "done"
[16:00] <popey> none whatsoever
[16:02] <SuperMatt> is there a default username and password for machines made in juju?
[16:03] <Laney> don't you do 'juju ssh'?
[16:05] <SuperMatt> I didn't think of that
[16:05] <SuperMatt> Laney: that worked, thanks
[16:16] <directhex> Azelphur, http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/H81%20Pro%20BTC/index.asp :D
[16:19] <penguin42> directhex: I'm missing something - is it's only clame to being a good bitcoin box a sensible number of PCIe slots?
[16:20] <penguin42> (and a dehumidifier mode?!)
[16:20] <directhex> penguin42, yes.
[16:21] <daftykins> >_<
[16:21] <directhex> penguin42, they don't even pack in the PCIe ribbons they picture on their site, which are needed to use double-width cards in their abundant PCIe slots
[16:22] <penguin42> what are those?
[16:22] <penguin42> just PCIe cabling - then where do you mount the cards?
[16:23] <daftykins> messily
[16:23] <daftykins> D:
[16:23] <directhex> penguin42, you don't :D
[16:23] <directhex> you just sorta pile them up...
[16:23] <directhex> or build a case out of lego
[16:29] <penguin42> directhex: Rigggghhht
[16:29] <penguin42> directhex: So don't people use PCI-bridge boards to provide themselves more slots then?
[16:29] <daftykins> totally up the avenue of a loan wasting student i'd say
[16:30] <penguin42> daftykins: It's what drives the economy
[16:30] <directhex> you can't turn a profit with GPU-based bitcoin anymore
[16:30] <directhex> the whole premise of the board is pants on head
[16:31] <penguin42> directhex: and what do the hardware accels plug into?
[16:32] <daftykins> yeah aren't the cool kids using err, what's the term, FPGAs?
[16:32] <directhex> ASICs
[16:32] <penguin42> are FPGAs able to break the cost? good FPGAs cost a fortune
[16:32] <daftykins> that's the one
[16:33] <directhex> and they're all USB or ethernet
[16:35] <directhex> except for a few bits of vaporware
[16:42] <popey> sending 'userdata' (137526 KB)...
[16:42] <popey> still going
[16:42] <popey> 40 mins later
[16:42] <popey> s/40/50/
[16:43] <daftykins> properly looking bleak down on the high-street just by my place now
[16:43] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/s/aoc0k25r2ctvu9y/IMG_20131118_163736.jpg
[16:43] <penguin42> that's not bleak!
[16:43] <SuperMatt> hey, your sky seems to be brighter than mine
[16:44] <SuperMatt> where did you get that from?
[16:44] <daftykins> :D
[16:44] <SuperMatt> you're not in some kind of foreign land, are you?
[16:44] <daftykins> i think it's more the poor low light pic taking with the Nexus 4
[16:44] <daftykins> yes, this is the high-street of our capital St Peter Port down here on the isle of Guernsey
[16:45] <Laney> looks pleasant to me
[16:45] <penguin42> nod, looks very nice
[16:45] <popey> yeah, very xmassy
[16:45] <daftykins> well technically it's Le Pollet, but meh, high-street is over in the distance :D
[16:45] <daftykins> heh yeah they get the fire brigade to put up the lights
[16:45] <popey> way better than my home town looks
[16:46] <daftykins> i just nipped 30 seconds down to there to buy a nice coffee :D
[16:46] <daftykins> mmm mocha
[16:46] <Laney> mmmocha
[16:46] <daftykins> :D
[16:46] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/s/bmplgmnjxgoliku/IMG_20131011_181856.jpg
[16:47] <daftykins> that one from a while back is a bit more like what i'm trying to portray :D
[16:47] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4vmivd3wh11qmwn/IMG_20131012_180311.jpg
[16:47] <daftykins> or perhaps ominous cloud about Castle Cornet
[16:50] <daftykins> last one, i think i shared my little panoramic stitch a bit ago
[16:50] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/s/asiekrtkx92xr1e/saleriepano.jpg
[16:50] <daftykins> :>
[16:51] <SuperMatt> daftykins: you're quite far south, aren't you?
[16:51] <daftykins> just fitted the two new 500GB seagate laptop drives today, currently racing Vista against 7 installing Windows Updates ¬_¬
[16:51] <daftykins> SuperMatt: yip practically France :>
[16:51] <SuperMatt> do you mean actually france?
[16:51] <SuperMatt> or dover?
[16:51] <daftykins> well Guernsey's in the little sort of pocket of the north
[16:52] <SuperMatt> ah
[16:52] <SuperMatt> that's the island name I couldn't remember
[16:52] <daftykins> next to Cherbourg and St. Malo
[16:52] <daftykins> http://goo.gl/maps/STS1Z
[16:52] <daftykins> :)
[16:52] <popey> so should I kill this flash-all script?
[16:53] <popey> alan     13908  0.3 12.2 1269596 983704 pts/10 D+   15:50   0:11 fastboot -w update image-nakasi-krt16o.zip
[16:53] <daftykins> popey: still chugging along? i'd just commit to it
[16:53] <popey> hmm
[16:53] <daftykins> depends if you have a google account on it that you enable device backup for
[16:53] <daftykins> i don't so nuking my device would be followed by lots of manual setup
[16:54] <popey> i didnt backup at all
[16:54] <popey> its all in the cloud
[16:56] <daftykins> yeah Google device backup - that's what i mean
[17:03] <SuperMatt> is there a juju channel?
[17:04] <popey> ya
[17:04] <popey> #juju
[17:05] <SuperMatt> cool, I'll check that out later
[17:05] <SuperMatt> I'm just trying one more thing
[17:06] <SuperMatt> maybe I'll pop in there tomorrow
[17:06] <SuperMatt> I'm done with thinking about things for today
[17:06] <daftykins> :D
[17:06] <SuperMatt> brain has stopped working
[17:06] <daftykins> 5pm = brain off o'clock \o/
[17:06] <daftykins> not for me though
[17:06] <SuperMatt> so I shall be going to the gym instead
[17:06] <daftykins> barely got started XD
[17:07] <daftykins> hf!
[17:07] <SuperMatt> I'm not technically allowed to leave for the gym for another 23 minutes
[17:07] <penguin42> start jogging around your desk?
[17:07] <SuperMatt> but brain is definitely off
[17:07] <daftykins> :D
[17:07] <SuperMatt> penguin42: the wall might have something to say about that
[17:07] <bashrc> locked in?
[17:07] <SuperMatt> just core hours
[17:08] <bashrc> core brain hours
[17:08] <SuperMatt> core brain hours are like 10-10.30
[17:09] <SuperMatt> work hours are 9-5.30
[17:09] <SuperMatt> you see the problem here?
[17:10] <penguin42> SuperMatt: Does it specify timezone?
[17:10] <SuperMatt> don't be silly
[17:10] <SuperMatt> it's my own damn timezone
[17:11] <SuperMatt> sometimes it worries me that this channel is publicly archived
[17:12] <daftykins> i feel a tad iffy about it
[17:13] <SuperMatt> only because of some of the silly things I say
[17:13] <daftykins> :D
[17:13] <SuperMatt> ugg, my brain really is switched off right now
[17:13] <penguin42> SuperMatt: And publicly searchable
[17:13] <SuperMatt> I'm hoping buying a sad lamp is going to help me
[17:14] <daftykins> i always think whoever came up with the acronym for seasonal affective disorder must've been so chuffed with themselves
[17:14] <SuperMatt> quite likely
[17:15] <SuperMatt> I imagine it was a pub moment
[17:20] <penguin42> daftykins: It was probably the highlight of their winter
[17:20] <daftykins> :D
[17:24] <SuperMatt> they clearly weren't sad that day
[17:27] <daftykins> ^_^
[17:29] <SuperMatt> only a minute to go \o/
[17:29] <SuperMatt> and then I get to hit the gym
[17:29] <SuperMatt> I must go because I only went once last week
[17:29] <SuperMatt> very naught of me
[17:32] <Laney> you little horror
[17:32] <Azelphur> directhex: I noticed that, it's amusing because of how late it is :)
[17:44] <popey> 2 hours flashing 4.4
[17:44] <popey> I am not convinced this is doing anything
[17:45] <popey> yup, frozen
[17:45] <daftykins> d'aww
[17:46] <popey> pretty boot animation
[17:46] <penguin42> but did it freeze with a complete install?
[17:48] <popey> \o/ booted
[17:48] <daftykins> think it crapped out on user data
[17:48] <popey> ya
[17:48] <popey> "Restoring..."
[17:49] <popey> "Setup complete"
[17:50] <popey> \o/ irssi notifier setup
[17:50] <popey> first notification received, work here is done
[17:56] <daftykins> \o/
[17:56] <daftykins> i shall wait for mine to be prompted for the update :>
[17:58] <daftykins> and my reinstall of this Vista laptop is nearly done
[17:58] <daftykins> tum-te-tum
[18:07] <diddledan> just reading oliver grawert's comments about mint
[18:08] <daftykins> who's he when he's at home?
[18:08] <bashrc> does he like it?
[18:08] <diddledan> lemme get the link
[18:09] <diddledan> he's an "engineering bod" at canonical... (from omgbuntu)
[18:10] <diddledan> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/11/canonical-dev-dont-use-linux-mint-online-banking-unsecure
[18:11] <diddledan> and the obligatory other-side http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/11/linux-mint-responds-ubuntu-developers-security-claims
[18:13] <bashrc> probably sour grapes.  Mint has been at the top of the distrowatch chart for the longest time
[18:15] <diddledan> the response really makes me feel better about mint's security stance </sarcasm>
[18:16] <daftykins> heh yeah
[18:16] <daftykins> "we do it because"
[18:17] <diddledan> "we prefer you never have to reboot or suffer a crashed programme than ensure those programmes never get any nasties"

[18:18] <diddledan> direct quote from mint's blog: Anybody running Mint can launch Update Manager -> Edit -> Preferences and enable level 4 and 5 updates, thus making their Linux Mint as “Secure” and “Unstable” as Ubuntu.
[18:19] <daftykins> dist-upgrade would do it too?
[18:20] <diddledan> that's unclear
[18:20] <diddledan> it seems that gui rules
[18:21] <daftykins> i figured the topic was mostly regarding novice users
[18:24] <diddledan> gotta love that everyone who responds to this http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2013/11/answering-controversy-stability-vs-security-is-something-you-configure/ seems to be "canonical is evil. canonical must die. wait, people other than canonical develop ubuntu? HAH! canonibuntu must be obliterated from the timeline (soon, please)"
[19:07] <ali1234> diddledan: no, the funny part is canonical trying to do damage control in the suspects
[19:08] <ali1234> *comments
[19:08] <ali1234> lol where's my head at?
[19:08] <diddledan> lol @ suspects
[19:08] <diddledan> grr, google can't find my cloudprint printer
[19:09] <diddledan> it was working last week
[19:09] <diddledan> it's decided to go "offline"
[19:09] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: native or from a machien running chrome?
[19:09] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: this particular occasion is via chrome
[19:09] <directhex> :o
[19:09] <directhex> :)
[19:09] <directhex> :D
[19:09] <directhex> :D
[19:09] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: is that chrome running? :)
[19:09] <directhex> remember my blog post from earlier this week?
[19:10] <ali1234> no
[19:10]  * AlanBell nods
[19:10] <AlanBell> mips stuff
[19:10] <directhex> https://buildd.debian.org/status/logs.php?pkg=mono&ver=3.2.3%2Bdfsg-3&arch=mipsel
[19:10] <ali1234> oh yeah
[19:10] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: the printer is a cloudprint enabled printer so it works directly with google without an intermediary chrome instance
[19:10] <AlanBell> it built \o/
[19:11] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: OK.. can you get to its web interface?
[19:11] <directhex> AlanBell, in the end, even with the replacement NOP instruction, it would still fail with the same issue - it would get further (most of the way through .net 4.5 rather than early in .net 2.0) but still failing
[19:11] <diddledan> random: why do debian use their own certification authority for their ssl certs?
[19:12] <directhex> AlanBell, and as luck would have it... i was assigned a buildd with an 11 year old broadcom chip, not a chinese mips clone
[19:12] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: yeah, I just been trawling through the admin to find a reason for it to not be working
[19:12] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: have you tried turning it off and on again? :P
[19:12] <AlanBell> directhex: I just ordered the first 7 raspberry pis for the build cluster
[19:12] <diddledan> hmm, no, I've not tried that one *smax head*
[19:13] <diddledan> ok, that seemed to fix it
[19:13] <MartijnVdS> I need to find something to put my NAS on
[19:13] <diddledan> I think
[19:13] <directhex> AlanBell, i should have mono ready for armhf ubuntu by the end of the year ;)
[19:13] <diddledan> maybe not
[19:13] <AlanBell> yay
[19:14] <MartijnVdS> it's resonating with the cabinet I put it itn :)
[19:14] <diddledan> nope, that didn't fix it
[19:14] <daftykins> MartijnVdS: haha it's letting you know it's alive!
[19:14] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: de-register, re-register with google?
[19:14] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: a bit too much though
[19:14] <ali1234> how much faster than a raspberry pi is a beaglebone black?
[19:14] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: I mean, it mails me every day when it's done its backup
[19:14] <ali1234> and does it run ubuntu armhf?
[19:15] <directhex> ali1234, lots, and yes
[19:15] <ali1234> lots = 10x?
[19:15] <directhex> http://www.ti.com/product/am3358
[19:16] <diddledan> it says "processing failed with error code -93"
[19:16] <diddledan> hmm
[19:17] <AlanBell> ali1234: 2x
[19:17] <AlanBell> for raw CPU, the pi wins when there is anything graphical, which there isn't in this context
[19:19] <directhex> ali1234, raspberry pi has the iphone 3g's cpu, minus any IO acceleration. beaglebone black is galaxy S
[19:19] <directhex> give or take
[19:19] <directhex> YMMV
[19:19] <directhex> IANAL
[19:19] <directhex> IDDQD
[19:19] <ali1234> ah, something i can actually understand
[19:19] <directhex> the pi is fast for any job where you ask yourself "would a Sky Box do this?" because it's a set-top box cpu
[19:20] <ali1234> yeah
[19:20] <directhex> high-end HD capable video decode GPU, plus enough CPU to draw a programme guide
[19:20] <AlanBell> both have 512MB ram
[19:20] <MartijnVdS> directhex: hence, XBMC
[19:21] <directhex> AND NOT A DROP OF EXTRA POWER
[19:21] <MartijnVdS> directhex: but wait, you can overclock it a few MHz
[19:44] <daftykins> directhex: IANAL = i am not a lemur?
[19:44] <directhex> yes
[19:45] <daftykins> :O
[19:45] <diddledan> nowai
[19:46] <daftykins> alright two laptops reinstalled after new HDDs put in
[19:46] <daftykins> 4.5hrs work i guess
[19:47] <daftykins> time to cook!
[19:47] <daftykins> \o
[20:13] <DJones> daftykins: I guess that wan't a windows reinstall then
[20:20] <diddledan> sorry about the join/part flood if you've got them turned on
[20:20] <diddledan> I was trying to run my macbook with the lid closed. it didn't work.
[20:21] <DJones> diddledan: Do you want a delayed kick :)
[20:21] <DJones> Lets put it this way, it wasn't exactly noticable
[20:21] <diddledan> it depends. is the kick in the googlies or not?
[20:22] <DJones> Does it matter with steel toe capped boots?
[20:22] <diddledan> it was noticeable from my end, does that count? :-p
[20:22] <diddledan> steel toe caps are the best kind of kicks
[20:22] <DJones> I think thats forgiveable anyway
[20:24] <MooDoo> evening all
[20:24] <diddledan> evenink
[20:24] <brobostigon> evening MooDoo
[21:37] <diddledan> https://twitter.com/alexhern/status/402365655250644992/photo/1
[21:37] <diddledan> I'll just leave that there
[21:46] <directhex> (experimental_mipsel-dchroot)directhex@eder:~$ mono --version | head -1
[21:46] <directhex> Mono JIT compiler version 3.2.3 (Debian 3.2.3+dfsg-3)
[21:46] <diddledan> directhex: nice
[21:47] <diddledan> aside: what does the dfsg in some of debian's package versions refer to?
[21:48] <diddledan> I thought maybe debian foundation security group, but it's a wild guess
[21:49] <ali1234> it stands for debian free software guidelines
[21:49] <directhex> yeah
[21:49] <directhex> it means a source tarball has been rebuilt (i.e. is not identical to the download on the software's site) because their source fails to meet the debian free software guidelines
[21:49] <ali1234> presumably it means you had to patch it to make it "free"
[21:50] <directhex> e.g. bundling of binaries, or bundling of non-Free things like RFC text
[21:51] <directhex> generally, see debian/README.source in a source package
[21:51] <diddledan> oic, so their firefox package (I forget what they called it. ice weasel?) would be one of those
[21:56] <ali1234> i think ice weasel is technically forked upstream
[22:06] <directhex> i updated my blog post. http://apebox.org/wordpress/rants/545/
[22:07] <neuro> is it a blog post about doctor who?
[22:10] <penguin42> directhex: HTH can you ship a processo ron which the NOP is broken?!
[22:10] <directhex> penguin42, china.
[22:10] <directhex> penguin42, this is the cpu in the computer RMS was endorsing.
[22:10] <penguin42> sigh - that is possibly the first broken nop I've come across
[22:11] <penguin42> directhex: But for the mul, is there a reason the kernel doesn't flag/emulate it - does it even generate an exception?
[22:11] <directhex> penguin42, well, SIGILL
[22:12] <neuro> rms was endorsing a computer?
[22:12] <neuro> god help us
[22:12] <directhex> penguin42, the thing is, the mips ISA does not include MUL. it's normal for MIPS not to include it.
[22:13] <directhex> MUL is valid mips assembler, but it does not equate to a standardized opcode
[22:13] <directhex> it's supposed to be expanded by your assembly compiler
[22:14] <penguin42> directhex: But what happens when you execute a non-existent opcode  on your processor? It throws some SIGIL?
[22:14] <directhex> yeah
[22:15] <penguin42> so you could get the kernel to emulate

[22:16] <AlanBell> neuro: yeah, he was, tiny crappy laptops, using mips clone processors because it was out of copyright, or nobody was enforcing copyright or something
[22:16] <directhex> mostly because the firmware is Free and in git
[22:16] <directhex> fat lot of good it does you when you can't even NOP
[22:16] <neuro> the Lemote
[22:17] <AlanBell> funny how MIPS went from very desirable silicon graphics workstations to supercheap stuff
[22:18] <ali1234> via games consoles
[22:18] <neuro> because SGI found it a) more cost effective to go Intel in terms of power, a la Apple going from PPC to Intel, and b) they went under
[22:18] <directhex> it was used in several games consoles
[22:18] <directhex> playstation, nintendo 64, playstation 2, playstation vita
[22:18] <directhex> er, PSP not vita
[22:18] <dwatkins> SGI didn't go under, they just got bought out
[22:19] <dwatkins> They've always had a fairly strong clustering business.
[22:20] <neuro> how is going bankrupt not going under?
[22:20] <dwatkins> They had money in the bank, and still existed as a company, they're still selling servers to this day.
[22:20] <neuro> NO WAI!
 :)
[22:21] <dwatkins> I should know, I worked there through several rounds of redundancy.
[22:21] <directhex> we bought SGI kit.
[22:21] <directhex> it was awesome
[22:21] <directhex> and they had the best tech support bar none as well as the best performance
[22:22] <dwatkins> They designed some pretty good stuff, sadly not all of it was so good.
[22:22] <dwatkins> Thanks, directhex - I was in support :)
[22:22] <neuro> dwatkins: sorry, disagree with your assessment
[22:22] <directhex> altix!
[22:22] <neuro> May 2006, SGI files for chapter 11
[22:22] <neuro> October 2006, SGI comes out of chapter 11 protection
[22:22] <dwatkins> neuro: I'm not a finance person, I just know that the company still exists with many of the same people. Perhaps on paper it stopped trading, but that's not what I saw happen.
[22:23] <neuro> Dec 2008, SGI is delisted from NASDAQ
[22:23] <neuro> April 2009, files for chapter 11 again
[22:23] <dwatkins> yeah, that was when it got bought up by Rackable, neuro.
[22:23] <directhex> SGI did a lot of stupid business. e.g. they were leasing old offices to google for less than they were paying on the mortgage
[22:23] <dwatkins> Rackable then changed their name to SGI.
[22:23] <neuro> May 2009, Rackable Systems buys SGI assets and name for $25m
[22:23] <dwatkins> So in financial terms, the old SGI stopped existing, yeah, but that's just on paper.
[22:23] <neuro> June 2009, the old SGI becomes Graphics Properties Holdings, Inc (GPHI), and becomes a patent troll
[22:24] <directhex> dwatkins, i like telling eng lim goh's pringle anecdote
[22:24] <dwatkins> directhex: don't think I heard that one, he's a smart cookie, though.
[22:24] <directhex> dwatkins, P&G bought an Ice cluster. its purpose: fluid dynamics. to try & reduce the aerodynamic nature of pringles, to speed up the production line without them flying off
[22:25] <dwatkins> What saddens me now is working for a much larger company, but not being able to do proper computing like we did at SGI.
[22:26] <neuro> "proper"? you mean like proper computational stuff?
[22:28] <dwatkins> Not just that, but that's part of it.
[22:29] <neuro> your employer doesn't really need any HPC then?
[22:30] <neuro> for me, $employer-2 did
[22:30] <neuro> great big feck off Platform cluster to do chip simulations
[22:30] <dwatkins> Yes and no, we do mostly desktop stuff, but the servers are very windws-centric, so when stuff is put into maintenance for server-side things, there's sometimes downtime.
[22:31] <dwatkins> Granted, that's occasionally unavoidable, but it happens more than it should from my perspective.
[22:31] <dwatkins> It's largely a matter of how things are designed, redundancy and so on.
[22:31] <neuro> we're gonna have a 2 day outage at some point
[22:31] <neuro> big mysql migration
[22:32] <dwatkins> That's utterly unacceptable in the supercomputing world, neuro ;)
[22:32] <neuro> oh jeez i know :)
[22:32] <neuro> mixed 5.1/5.5 on centos/win to 5.6 on ubuntu
[22:32] <dwatkins> I assume it's data that can't just be kept running on one system whilst they upgrade a copy, though.
[22:32] <neuro> too many changes
[22:33] <dwatkins> Such is often the case with customer databases and the like.
[22:33] <neuro> also too many things doing rw to the master and ro to the slaves
[22:33] <dwatkins> I just hope you don't have an IE-only interface to it ;)
[22:33] <neuro> ooh, good call
[22:33] <neuro> let me dig out an old XP laptop
[22:34] <neuro> nah, we use a whole raft of stuff
[22:34] <dwatkins> This is similar to what we use: http://wiki.scn.sap.com/wiki/download/attachments/107611091/5.JPG
[22:34] <neuro> cli, obviously, plus mysql workbench and sequel pro / sqlyog
[22:34] <neuro> holy crap
[22:34] <dwatkins> I have a virtual machine dedicated to using it, so I know it will work no matter what the (Mac) laptop on my desk does.
[22:35] <neuro> that makes Remedy look amazing
[22:35] <neuro> $employer-2 was planning a big SAP rollout for last year or this year
[22:35] <neuro> glad i got out when i did ;)
[22:35] <dwatkins> The strange thing is, at SGI, we used a Windows 2000 application (called "Clarify"), and hated it a little at the time, but looking back, Clarify was superb, fast, and did the job very well.
[22:36] <neuro> ah, Windows 2000
[22:36] <neuro> second best Windows, ever
[22:36] <dwatkins> We even had developers able to extend Clarify, and a web-based mail interface to automatically turn an e-mail into a support case with a modified version of squirrelmail.
[22:36] <dwatkins> It now takes me 3 minutes to do what I could do in about 7 seconds in Clarify.
[22:37] <neuro> this Clarify? http://dovetailsoftware.com/clarify/
[22:38] <neuro> oh, they're a third party
[22:38] <dwatkins> no, this is the best screenshot I can find quickly: http://i.cmpnet.com/callmag2000/content/custsupport110b.gif "Clarify ClearSupport" - it had other functions, too.
[22:39] <dwatkins> Biggest thing that vexes me is that I could have ten cases open in separate windows within Clarify, but the system I use now only lets me have one session open at a time, so one case.
[22:39] <neuro> Amdocs Clarify, used to belong to Nortel, right?
[22:39] <dwatkins> No idea, I imagine it was bought up plenty of times.
[22:39] <neuro> http://connectedplanetonline.com/mag/telecom_amdocs_collects_clarify/
[22:40] <neuro> i'm actually in the market for a decent helpdesk system
[22:40] <neuro> we have a homebrew thing in ASPX which is nasty
[22:40] <dwatkins> Possibly, but the Clarify we used was an application, not browser-based.
[22:40] <dwatkins> The most important thing is sane date ;)
[22:40] <dwatkins> data, even
[22:40] <neuro> I think that thing I first linked to is a web interface to the Clarify backend
[22:41] <dwatkins> If your customer information is incomplete or the database can't be extended, if you grow to a certain size and can't extend it, you're hosed.
[22:41] <neuro> the main problem we have is that our interface is awful
[22:41] <neuro> and the email comms side is non existent
[22:41] <dwatkins> Simple things like how a record is defined, what a site means - having a new entry for each company when they buy new software causes problems further down the line.
[22:42] <neuro> i'd love to go for a SaaS solution, but they're all ridiculously expensive
[22:42] <neuro> i'm going to end up eating the bullet and going RT or OTRS, i know it
[22:42] <dwatkins> not come across those
[22:42] <neuro> zendesk looks incredible, but just not cost-efficient enough for us
[22:42] <neuro> really?
[22:43] <dwatkins> zendesk is great, although I have my reservations about using an external system for anything like that
[22:43] <neuro> i'd have thought most geeks by now would have had to touch either RT or OTRS at some point
[22:43] <neuro> I actually managed an install at smoothwall back in the day, was a pain in the bum
[22:43] <dwatkins> I've not been involved with choosing a CRM.
[22:43] <neuro> it's not a CRM, it's just a helpdesk
[22:43] <dwatkins> ah ok
[22:43] <neuro> although no doubt people have grafted CRM onto it
[22:43] <neuro>  /them
[22:43] <dwatkins> I just know that I've used some systems which are great, mostly browser-based, simple, and hide their complexity.
[22:44] <neuro> i saw zendesk or some other SaaS helpdesk system has gamification built in
[22:44] <dwatkins> There's a video from an Australian company going around at the moment entitled "your user is drunk" which sums-up user interface design quite well
[22:44] <neuro> so you get badges for closing X amount of tickets, or keeping to your KPIs, etc
[22:44] <Seeker`> is youtube down?
[22:44] <dwatkins> ahhh the joy of stats
[22:45] <dwatkins> this works for me, Seeker` http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2CbbBLVaPk
[22:45] <neuro> Seeker`: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/youtube.com
[22:45] <Seeker`> :O ITS NOT JUST ME
[22:45] <neuro> youtube.com 500'd for me a minute ago, but fine now
[22:45] <Seeker`> all this time I tohught I was alone in the world!
[22:46] <neuro> i love people who do presos where they don't just read what's on the screen
[22:46] <neuro> watching someone fire up powerpoint and read every bullet point is just paaaaaaaaainful
[22:46] <dwatkins> yeah, neuro - that guy seems to really know his stuff
[22:48] <dwatkins> bah, my lovely old iBook no longer does internets, the wifi seems to have stopped working properly
[22:48] <neuro> hit it
[22:49] <neuro> airport cards are pretty cheap on ebay iirc
[22:49] <neuro> "Martinis and code"
[22:49] <neuro> like it
[22:51] <Seeker`> the ballmer peak is real
[22:52] <dwatkins> It detects the networks which are there, I just can't join my WPA2 network even if I choose "other" and select WPA2 Persona.
[22:52] <dwatkins> Personal
[22:53] <neuro> G3 or G4?
[22:54] <dwatkins> G3: http://imagine41.com/media/catalog/product/cache/4/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/p/apple_ibook_g3_350_blue_005_3.jpg
[22:54] <dwatkins> yeah, it's proper old, runs 10.3.9
[22:55] <neuro> http://superuser.com/questions/308931/ibook-g4-tiger-10-4-11-cant-connect-via-secured-wifi
[22:55] <neuro> although they're running 1.04
[22:55] <neuro> oops, 10.4
[22:55] <neuro> i can't type tonight, hands cold
[22:56] <dwatkins> sounds very similar, though, thanks neuro
[22:56] <neuro> gorgeous aluminium apple products + cold weather + crappy heating = brrrrrrr frostbitten finger tips!
[22:56] <dwatkins> I'll have a fiddle with the settings on the routers, what makes this more complex is that I have two routers with the same SSID.
[22:56] <daftykins> three of lifes guarantees: death, taxes and needing long fingernails immediately after cutting them
[22:56] <neuro> been there
[22:57] <dwatkins> I cut my nails so they're a couple mm long, just in case I need them.
[22:57] <neuro> although i rarely let my nails grow longer than a fraction of an inch
[22:57] <daftykins> :D normally i leave a single thumb longish, but i just could not separate a binsack just before :>
[22:57] <neuro> mind you, i have long nails on the finger, i don't have those stubby little nails that some people have
[22:57] <neuro> i was never a nailbiter
[22:58] <dwatkins> My grandad had a split fingernail because he used it to turn screws.
[22:58] <neuro> ooft
[22:58] <daftykins> :D
[22:59] <daftykins> yeah i don't get the biting thing
[22:59] <daftykins> although i'm a nose picker so what i improve of in some areas i take back just the same...
[22:59] <daftykins> ;D
[22:59] <neuro> lol
[23:00] <neuro> argh, another filled /boot
[23:00] <neuro> stupid kernels
[23:01] <daftykins> yeah :( they mount up don't they
[23:01] <neuro> luckily i hacked up a script to uninstall all kernels except the one that's running and the most recent one
[23:01] <neuro> although i realise now i'm not sure how it reacts if the two are one and the same
[23:01] <neuro> i keep meaning to throw stuff like that up on github
[23:02] <daftykins> :D
[23:02] <neuro> i have a repo ready: http://github.com/evilneuro/tildebin
[23:08] <penguin42> AlanBell: There was a paper by one of the SGI architects at some point before the Nintendo 64 predicting the evolution of the games consoles
[23:08] <neuro> there we go
[23:08] <neuro> https://github.com/evilneuro/tildebin/blob/master/remove-old-kernels
[23:09] <daftykins> penguin42: do you remember the details?
[23:10] <penguin42> hmm, might be able to find it
[23:12] <penguin42> it's about 20 years since I looked at that stuff though
[23:12] <daftykins> :D don't worry
[23:13]  * penguin42 did his MSc in VR systems using SGI boxes in about 93-94
[23:13] <daftykins> :o
[23:13] <dwatkins> penguin42: yeah, that was their hayday
[23:14] <dwatkins> desktops so heavy you could barely lift them on your own
[23:14] <penguin42> dwatkins: Well, in the case of a Crimson more of a case of how many people were needed to push it
[23:14] <neuro> we need to stop talking about anything closely related to games consoles
[23:15] <neuro> my xbox one arrives on friday
[23:15] <daftykins> we do? how come?
[23:15] <neuro> happy dance
[23:15] <daftykins> hehe
[23:15] <daftykins> hear about the PS4 sabotage?
[23:15] <neuro> sabotage?
[23:15] <dwatkins> penguin42: ah yes, those make great fridges
[23:15] <dwatkins> daftykins: I wondered if it was just a rumour
[23:15] <neuro> oh "sketchy, at best", says kotaku
[23:15] <daftykins> dwatkins: the amazon US reviews are showing a lot of DOA consoles
[23:16] <dwatkins> daftykins: ah I see, when I read about it yesterday there weren't any figures on the number of DOAs
[23:16] <penguin42> daftykins: I'm wondering if this is the paper I'm thinking of, but it's pay walled http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=801272
[23:17] <neuro> CURSE YOU, ACM! *shakes fist*
[23:17] <penguin42> exactly
[23:18] <daftykins> d'aww
[23:18] <penguin42> http://design.osu.edu/carlson/history/PDFs/geometry-engine.pdf
[23:18] <penguin42> but I'm not actually sure if that's the paper I was originally thinking of
[23:19] <penguin42> I thought there was something nearer early 90's
[23:22] <penguin42> Yeh, that's not the one - but I think the one I'm thinking of was written by James Clark
[23:38] <penguin42> most annoying, I can't find the paper - but I can't quite know what I'm searching for
[23:40] <daftykins> :D
[23:49] <penguin42> but I think this would be what was originally called Porject Reality/Ultra 64 and it was a paper a good couple of years maybe a few more before Nintendo 64 actually came out
[23:52] <ali1234> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z45nbzMLk98
[23:55] <penguin42> hehe that was the day - a bit late in the day
[23:56] <ali1234> i remember watching that on tv and thinking it was amazing
[23:57]  * penguin42 remembers we had a SGI Crimson in about 94 that would be a bit before that doing real time 3d on polarised glasses using a pair of projectors - it was pretty damn neat