=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-client-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/client-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/19/%23ubuntu-uds-client-2.html
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-client-2 to: Track: Client | Re-enable sidestage for Unity8 on mir | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22086/client-1311-enable-sidestage/
kgunnlink ?14:59
tsimpson-udssee /topic15:00
tvoss_didrocks, o/15:06
mzanettiwe broke it!15:06
didrocksmzanetti: ricmm is broken, that's what I thought :p15:07
didrockshey tvoss_15:07
tvoss_ricmm, I think lifecycle shoul dbe handled per stage15:10
tvoss_ricmm, I would propose to look into content hub15:18
tvoss_didrocks, Saviq, kgunn ^15:18
Saviqtvoss_, maybe join the hangout/15:18
didrockstvoss_: what do you mean but looking into content hub?15:18
didrocksfor clipboard?15:19
Saviqtvoss_, but yes, I did think that the hub could be integrated15:19
tsdgeos_udsricmm: what's the plan for the "new sidestage features" for surfaceflinger, will still support them for the other ports that don't use Mir?15:20
tsdgeos_udsor should just all other ports just use Mir?15:20
tvoss_didrocks, yup, it's the same scenario, content source, destination and actual content15:21
Saviqtsdgeos_uds, yeah, that's a very good question, not sure we will be able to answer it here15:23
tsdgeos_udsack, makes sense :-)15:30
mzanettiSaviq: will we do this properly soonish then? https://code.launchpad.net/~unity-team/unity8/split-surfaces15:34
Saviqmzanetti, possibly, the while scenegraph topic binds into this a lot15:36
Saviqmzanetti, more so than the side stage, I'd say15:36
mzanettididn't we have a destkop file hint which specifies supported stages?15:38
Saviqmzanetti, default, not supported15:39
mzanettiiirc there was a month or so where we had another one too15:39
mzanettibut that one stopped working at some point and was removed from all the apps15:39
tvoss_didrocks, Saviq my broadband dropped, resurrecting it now15:40
mzanettiricmm said there won't be landscape only15:43
mzanettibut games might really do that15:43
mzanettiso it would run on tablet main stage and phone, but not tablet sidestage15:44
mzanettiyeah... got it15:50
didrocksnow, the challenge is going to be able to stop ricmm :)15:55
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-client-2 to: Track: Core | CI Airline | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22092/core-1311-ci-airline/
Saviqricmm, to make sure you have that: http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-client-1311-enable-sidestage16:00
cjwatsonhangout url?16:04
Ursinhadidrocks, ^16:06
evI'll be taking any questions you have on Didier's presentation or the CI Airline on the whole.16:07
tedgev, Will you be serving drinks and roasted nuts as well?16:07
tsdgeos_udsdid the stream just die for everyone or just me?16:07
robrudstsdgeos_uds: works for me16:07
dobey-udstedg: i'm going to need all the rum you have.16:08
evdobey-uds: if you want a speaking slot, there's still space16:08
evtedg: :)16:08
evor anyone else for that matter - we've got plenty of space in the on air hangout16:09
dobey-udsev: i don't want to complain too much in the session :)16:11
evdobey-uds: it's the point of the session16:11
evgetting feedback from upstreams16:11
tedgIt's hard to think of positive feedback :-)16:11
evtedg: feedback on the new idea16:13
evnot the current approach16:13
evdo feel free to ask questions now. I'll happily queue them up for Didier.16:14
tedgQUESTION: You've been talking about updating for changing images, how about changing trunks?16:21
evtedg: can you elaborate on what you mean by changing trunks?16:21
tedgev, Foo app gets new bug fixes on trunk16:21
cjwatsonThis optimises strongly for feature work that requires extensive testing; it's making trade-offs in favour of that.  I really want to make sure that changes where that trade-off isn't justified don't need to go through this, as it would have a very scary effect on velocity if they did.16:23
dobey-udsQUESTION: Why the emphasis on anti-isolation?16:23
cjwatsonWhile at the same time ensuring that the bells-and-whistles CI facilities are available for the cases where they're needed.16:23
infinity+1 to Colin's comments there.16:23
tedgI don't know how you can really have a "lock", I mean, there are likely to always be more features landing than we'll have HW to lock everything.16:24
cjwatsonThe "small bug fixes" bit at the beginning of the presentation alludes to that discussion, I think, but that's a substantial policy grey area that I think is worth thinking about.16:24
evcjwatson, infinity: are we talking about the time it takes to run the tests? Because this isn't blocking on human beings, so I'm trying to understand what you're worried will decrease development velocity.16:24
cjwatsonNo, I'm talking about the whole thing.16:24
cjwatsonThere are days when I make 20-30 changes to the archive for build fixes, transitions, and the like.16:25
dobey-udstedg: the pervasive requirement of specific hardware/device testing is definitely a problem16:25
infinityev: The whole end-to-end "register intent to change" all the way to "landing".  It's far too heavy for a simple/small fix/change.16:25
tedgWill there be a choice of who gets sign-off on take off?  I'm guessing we don't need design sign off for Upstart features.16:25
evcjwatson: sure, but if you had a simple way of throwing a dsc at this and forgetting about it, would that not work16:25
cjwatsonIt's far too heavyweight.16:25
cjwatsonAnd unnecessary.16:25
cjwatsonGiven that all I actually need for most of that is "does it build and does it pass autopkgtests", which I already have.16:26
tedgAnd most transitions are handled by the proposed handling.16:26
cjwatson(Looks like Didier is getting to what I care about now)16:26
zygahow does this session relate to people working on ubuntu components patch by patch, can I somehow not maintain my own CI infrastructure?16:27
evcjwatson: okay, I cannot condense that down into a sentence, so after we handle tedg and dobey-uds' questions, may I ask that you raise your concerns?16:27
evmuch appreciated16:27
evzyga: you're free to use whatever you want to verify your code before uploading.16:29
zygaev: uploading? when I'm uploading it has to work already, what I want is something that helps me on the way there, by the time I upload packages it is already too costly or too late to fix something that was broken early on16:29
evzyga: So this is one such approach that allows that continuous feedback16:30
tedgev, Do we have data on how many cross-package mega-features we do per cycle?  I'm guessing 2, perhaps 3.  Worried we're building something for a minority of use-cases.16:30
evtedg: noted16:30
zygaev: so is the intent to use this system to create a package for each patch that lands into ubuntu so that it goes through all of that before landing?16:31
dobey-udstedg: indeed. it feels very TSA to continue the metaphor16:31
* tedg feels safer now16:31
evzyga: you can feed this system a branch or a dsc file16:32
zygaev: so I propose a merge request on launchpad, I go to this boarding system, point it at my branch, what happens next? does it land my branch after I'm done, does it comment on the merge request? can I do that for all the proposals I'm doing?16:33
zygaev: does it go to ubuntu? to my project trunk?16:34
dobey-udsthis seems all about testing everything all at once together, versus simply pushing developers to write isolated code16:34
tedgev, Feed it a branch?  Isn't that basically what a MR is?  Will MRs be considered "small fixes" by default?16:34
zygacjwatson: how is this different from autopackage tests?16:34
cjwatsonI was having audio problems yesterday, but I'd hoped they were just with mumble16:34
cjwatsonLet me try restarting my desktop env16:34
cjwatsonI'd like to do this by audio, so I'll get back to you16:35
infinityev: Your audio is very choppy.16:35
evboo :(16:35
evinfinity: can you carry this one?16:36
zygaaudio too choppy to understand16:36
evor raise your concerns16:36
zygadoes the system exist or is this a proposal for something new?16:36
zygaev: ^^16:36
dobey-udstoo much background noise for ev16:36
zygaand how does it tie into UDD (ubuntu distributed development), if any16:36
Ursinhadidrocks, I wonder if your workflow diagrams cover all these questions?16:38
evUrsinha: do feel free to share them here16:38
evzyga: it's something being built16:38
Ursinhaev, it was an honest question, I don't know if they cover these cases (if they don't we might need to extend them)16:39
evoh :)16:39
zygaev: is this something you see being required for all updates to stable ubuntu releases?16:39
evzyga: to be clear, we are not requiring this for core-dev uploads.16:40
evbut yes, this system can handle SRUs16:40
evI'll raise that question with didier so he can explain further16:40
cjohnstonThe lock only lasts from the time that a ticket is marked as ready to be merged until it's merged, should be hours at best16:42
cjohnston(best meaning most)16:42
UrsinhaI love the analogies16:46
zygacjwatson: good comparison16:46
tedgIn France the change the speed on the highway during holidays?16:49
cjwatsonAs a cyclist, I also don't think that car travel is a good analogy for an efficient system :-)16:49
tedgWow.  That'd never fly in Texas.16:49
dobey-udstedg: many highways in the US do as well, when there are high traffic situations. not just holidays, but during rush hour and such even16:50
plarstedg: wait, we have speed limits in Texas? since when?16:50
tedgplars, They're listed on the white signs with bullet holes16:50
cjwatsonLast time I drove in Texas the speed limit was 55mph for a three-hour empty highway ...16:50
kgunnplars: 80mph on that tollway near your city it awesome16:50
arges-uds(I'm late so this may have already been covered) Does this fundamentally change the SRU process?16:52
dobey-udsarges-uds: no16:52
arges-uds: )16:53
didrockscjwatson: well, I'm a cyclist as well, but I guess the global speed one is a still giving some help (/me would love that the speed in his city on the road with cyclist line is slower to be safer)16:53
cjwatsonRight.  But part of the problem is precisely that car travel doesn't scale up; you make roads more efficient for drivers by removing cars (there are studies on this, there's a tipping point where there's a fairly sharp corner in the graph).16:54
tsdgeos_udsi'm with tedg here, i don't want nor need this big thing for this MR https://code.launchpad.net/~aacid/unity-mir/nomegaheader/+merge/19582316:54
vilathe ci system also give access to more hardware than all devs can have on their desktop16:55
cjwatsonThis analogy is getting rather laboured :-)16:55
=== cyphermox_ is now known as cyphermox
dobey-udstedg: it's full autowaited16:55
plarsThere seems to have  been some value in the past of tracking what's about to land in the image. Isn't that the motivation for even having patches going through the lightweight process get a "ticket"?16:56
cjwatsonI dispute that value16:56
cjwatson(In the case of lightweight changes)16:56
evcjwatson: please raise that then :)16:56
cjwatsonI think it has made some people feel more in control, but I think that control is artificial16:56
cjwatsonAgain, and I'm sounding like a broken record: for more substantial feature work, by all means16:57
dobey-udscjwatson: and even then, that work should be incremental, not huge swathing changes, i think16:58
dobey-udswho is doing the work to write all the toosl, or fix issues in launchpad?17:00
infinitycjwatson: Indeed, "people having control" shouldn't be a goal in itself, unless the control is useful.  In a distributed development environment, often "people having control over landing" is of benefit to exactly no one except that person's ego.17:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-client-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/client-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/19/%23ubuntu-uds-client-2.html
Ursinhadobey-uds, that's still being discussed, that would be the ci team, I believe17:01
dobey-udsUrsinha: i wonder if any of the work is going to be fixing issues in launchpad to make it more useful for such processes, or just writing weird custom hacks on top of what already exists there (or just using external stuff like google docs to track things)17:02
Ursinhainfinity, also having a bottleneck is against the principle of continuous integration17:02
dobey-udsbecause custom hacks are not fun17:02
Ursinhadobey-uds, I'm suggesting that we use launchpad as the "ticketing system" as we already use a lot of it to other parts of the process, wgrant said he would be happy to discuss other parts that could be fixed in launchpad (like the jenkins part, for instance)17:03
Ursinhadobey-uds, that said I agree with you :)17:04
dobey-udsand in particular, i don't want someone to go write another custom branch merge/commit solution and reimplementing features poorly, when we have tarmac17:04
M3kHis started the Unity8 shell discussion?17:05
Ursinhadobey-uds, I believe most people agree on that17:05
dobey-udsUrsinha: anyway. i would like to be included in those discussions17:05
kgunnM3kH: another hour17:05
Ursinhadobey-uds, sure, please join the discussion :) I can point you the documents and we can start to discuss more in the open so other people can join as well17:06
M3kHooh :) cool I have the time for come back home17:06
dobey-udsam still a bit in shock from being told last night "oh, we're going to make huge changes to our process again"17:06
dobey-udsUrsinha: great. yeah, please e-mail me the links to those docs and ping me to be in discussions when possible :)17:07
Ursinhadobey-uds, sure, will do17:07
dobey-udsUrsinha: thanks!17:07
Ursinhanp :)17:07
dobey-udsok. time to get lunch over here17:07
dobey-udslater :)17:07
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-client-2 to: Track: Client | Unity8 shell discussion | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22084/unity8-shell-discussion/
kgunnjust rounding folks up from lunch....bear with us18:03
kgunnhangout https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpjf8uetpdtf0ed3u4t3lm64?authuser=018:06
kgunnthe pad saviq is referencing http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-unity8-shell-discussion18:10
pstolowski_I think it's worth mentioning that when you run unity8 on the desktop, it's going to connect to the backend services of the desktop (e.g scopes), so you cannot replicate the exact phone experience. any hints about making it similar to the phone as much as possible while running on the desktop?18:21
pstolowski_is cross-compilation possible?18:28
pstolowski_awesome, thanks18:30
veebersSaviq: Could we cover quickly running the tests? qmltests and autopilot etc18:35
veebershmm, does anyone else get a "Proxy Error" from the etherpad?18:36
kgunnveebers: yes...seems to be down18:36
veeberskgunn: ack, thanks for confirmation18:36
kgunnback up now tho18:36
veebersYou could also, cd tests/autopilot; autopilot run . . .18:37
kgunnveebers: feel free to edit etherpad for posterity's sake18:39
veeberskgunn: cool, will do when I get access back18:39
* mzanetti thinks of questions to bug Saviq18:45
Saviqmzanetti, too late ;P18:46
kgunnmzanetti: i'm pretty sure you know where he works18:48
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-client-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/client-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/19/%23ubuntu-uds-client-2.html
=== alex-abreu is now known as alex-abreu|afk

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