=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/community-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/19/%23ubuntu-uds-community-1.html
=== jono is now known as ubuntu-goldfish
ubuntu-goldfishhey everyone!04:25
amjjawadballoons: hi14:39
amjjawadballoons: have you found a new Headset/Mic? :D14:39
balloonsI have quite the setup, but google doesn't like the mic14:40
balloonsso it seems14:40
balloonshow are you amjjawad ?14:40
amjjawadOh, that is not good to know :/14:41
amjjawadWell, I finally slept more than 3 hours at night :D14:41
amjjawadSo, I guess I am ready for the meeting14:41
amjjawadshall we test the voice quality if you wish?14:41
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | QA Community Workflows | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21981/community-1311-quality-defining-workflows/
balloonsok hangout info is up, for whomever wants to be a part15:00
chilicuilI'll follow by irc =)15:00
cragdorHasn't started yet15:02
elopiocragdor: it should start in 1 minute.15:04
cragdorStarting now.............15:05
cragdorDrat missed15:05
amjjawadhello everyone15:05
amjjawadballoons: is having tech issues with his internet15:05
cgoldberghello amjjawad15:05
amjjawadcgoldberg: hi :)15:05
balloonsjust a moment my friends, sorry for the delay :-)15:06
amjjawadwe were testing the hangout and there is a huge delay15:06
amjjawadtyt balloons15:06
cragdorYour hangout is hanging??15:06
elopioit hasn't started here.15:07
amjjawadthere is delay guys15:07
amjjawadthe voice reach after one min :D15:07
amjjawadhopefully we start soon :)15:07
* chilicuil goes for some milk + cookies15:08
cragdorCan i sit now, i've been standing for a while now?!15:11
amjjawadcragdor: have a seat, please :P15:11
balloonsLet's talk via IRC for the moment while I work on this15:12
balloonsI'm terribly sorry15:12
amjjawadno it is fine15:12
amjjawadit happens15:12
cragdorIRC FTW15:12
balloonsok, so welcome to the session on QA Community roles :-15:13
balloonscheck out the pad for the agenda15:13
balloonsbasically, let's talk about the new roles that have been created, and go through the ideas and questions.. any feedback is good, etc15:13
amjjawadballoons: I will hold my hope high waiting for the Hangout :D15:14
amjjawadso will keep my notes for now if that is okay15:14
balloonsthe big piece is to get some more work items around expanding the concept of roles and trying to make it easier for everyone to connect with and contribute to ubuntu quality15:14
amjjawadwhile waiting to go live, I'd like to share this with all:15:14
chilicuilare those roles gonna have their own lp groups or it'll be just a local distintion?, to make diferent wiki sections or somethink like that?15:15
AlbertoSNIsn't hangout working?15:15
balloonsAlbertoSN, sadly at the moment no, so we're on IRC15:15
amjjawadballoons: has sent an email on the QA Mailing List some months ago and I decided to be the driver for a focus group to find more testers and well, I guess Ubuntu GNOME QA Team has done a successful job :)15:15
balloonschilicuil, the roles are going to be local distinction imho15:16
balloonsI don't see a need for different wiki sections15:16
amjjawad+1 no need for new Wiki or LP accounts15:16
amjjawadthis is waste of time and resources IMHO15:17
knomelaunchpad groups are good if the teams need specific access to LP features though15:17
amjjawadknome: yes, but everyone can be part of one LP area better than dividing them :)15:18
knomeamjjawad, i think you are missing my point15:18
amjjawadfor two years, I guess I have seen the good side and the bad side of having so many sub-teams15:18
ali1234where is the video?15:18
amjjawadknome: I'd be very glad to know your point better :D15:19
balloonsfor context for anyone who hasn't seen the page, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Roles/15:19
amjjawadali1234: we are having tech issue so hope we go live soon15:19
* balloons is going live15:19
balloonsreload the page15:19
ali1234working :)15:20
MoshadI didnt see the video window15:20
Moshadonly chat15:20
amjjawadballoons: nothing here :/15:20
chilicuillive here15:20
knomeballoons, i can see you.15:20
amjjawadballoons: Waiting for people to join this video call...15:21
Moshadwhere is the link?15:21
amjjawadoh ok, link plz balloons15:21
balloonsif you want to join: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpio1bovoaf61p6gt5i29hps?authuser=0&hl=en15:21
AlbertoSNSorry, I'm unable to speak at this time; since people is sleeping15:23
AlbertoSNBut latter15:23
knomedid AlbertoSN just bark? ;)15:24
AlbertoSNMy mic is muted15:25
knomei'm just kidding15:25
balloonsthat was my dog, hah15:25
amjjawadballoons: can you hear me?15:25
knomeme neither15:25
amjjawadballoons: sorry link again :P15:26
chilicuilI think those roles are enough15:26
AlbertoSNI can say I recently read the wiki, and it looks very well to me15:26
chilicuilabout the mentorship process I'm not sure, that's a good idea, however I've seen a lot of previous attemps not only in the qa community and all of them had failed, so I wonder whether this new attempt will be sucessfully15:27
amjjawadballoons: link please :D15:27
balloonsamjjawad, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpio1bovoaf61p6gt5i29hps?authuser=0&hl=en15:27
chilicuil+1 for better (video) tutorials15:28
knomehaving to commit to something might scare off some mentors.15:28
knomeso +1 for informal stuff15:28
knomecan't hear ali, but can see him opening his mouth15:29
AlbertoSNYes, video is laggy15:30
Moshadnetwork problem15:30
amjjawadthe internet is so bad :(15:30
AlbertoSNNot mine15:30
ali1234video = unintelligible15:30
amjjawadballoons: there is delay15:30
AlbertoSNI'm so sorry to be unable to talk: I'll try now not making so much noise.15:31
balloonsamjjawad, I'm sorry15:31
dobey-udsvideo is very skippy for balloons yes15:31
chilicuilheere as well15:31
amjjawadballoons: too bad :(15:31
AlbertoSNDO you hear me?15:31
AlbertoSNVideo is frozen15:31
amjjawadanything can be done at all?15:31
amjjawadfrozen here too15:31
Moshadhere the sma15:32
knomesounds like balloons was inside a metallic tube15:32
AlbertoSNMetalic sound15:32
Moshadfreezing, and robotic15:32
shadeslayersomething from the Kubuntu side of things, the current test cases for ISO's don't really make sense, so we made https://trello.com/b/sdTmhD0H/14-04-deadlines15:32
shadeslayerwhich has regressions we've experienced in the past15:32
dobey-udsballoons: yep, still choppy15:33
dobey-udsaudio is choppy15:33
ali1234if you're asking "is this any better?": no, it's still awful15:33
balloonsdoes the audio come through?15:33
amjjawadballoons: nop15:33
knomeballoons, barely15:33
amjjawadnothing at all15:33
Moshadi cant understand a word15:33
dobey-udselopio: say something15:33
ali1234audio comes through but it is impossible to tell what you are saying, you sound like peanuts15:33
DanChapmanwow hangouts playing nasty today15:33
dobey-udssomeone other than balloons in the hangout, say something15:33
amjjawadyes for what?? :D15:34
balloonscan you hear the other participants in the hangouts?15:34
ali1234whoever just said "yes", sounds ok :)15:34
balloonslet's keep going on IRC then. I'll type15:34
ali1234yes :)15:34
balloonsso, in summary, current roles are fine and seem well documented. No other feedback here?15:34
knomeAlbertoSN, yep!15:35
balloonswe won't add a new mentorship role, but will encourage it to happen amongst the team informally15:35
balloonsjavier liked the idea of doing videos -- anything specific you'd like to see?15:35
shadeslayerI can't hear anyone :P15:35
shadeslayerexcept Nicholas15:35
dobey-udseveryone use AlbertoSN's mic to speak15:35
knomeballoons, i think it would be a good idea to ask around a bit who might be willing to help with mentoring15:36
AlbertoSNDo you hear me?15:36
knomeok, hangout is off15:36
ali1234ugh... hangout is totally gone now15:36
DanChapmanballoons, I missed some at the start but i like the sound of javier's idea of video's.15:36
AlbertoSNSo what shall be done?15:36
amjjawadcan anyone hear me?15:36
chilicuilyeah, more step by step tutorials for everything with subtitles15:36
high_fiverballoons: you sounded like GLaDOS15:37
Moshaddid you just broke the mic?15:37
dobey-udsnah, glados is intelligible15:37
shadeslayerballoons: video lagging15:37
DanChapmanjavier == chilicuil ?? (can't remember :-\ )15:37
balloonsDanChapman, yes15:37
Moshadoh bad15:37
knomethere is no hangout15:37
balloonsok, so let's cover the remaining ideas15:38
DanChapmanballoons, thanks15:38
chilicuilI personally will like to see more autopilot, autopkg ones, however it would be good to have more about basically any qa related topic15:38
elopiodobey-uds: oh, sorry.15:38
balloonschilicuil, et la, is intro to each role video useful?15:38
elopionow it's off air, so I can't send my greetings to you.15:39
balloonsyes sorry about the hangout :-)15:39
knomei'd prefer simple/low-level ones over more complex subjects on the videos15:40
chilicuilballoons: I don't think so, the wiki descriptions seems enough for me, however we could clasify videos and resources depending of the audience target, this for testers, those for writers, those for developers15:40
dobey-udselopio: no, it's jut that only balloons was talking and i wanted other people to talk to see if the problem was google, or balloons :)15:40
balloonschilicuil, knome noted, thank you15:41
AlbertoSNGo http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21981/community-1311-quality-defining-workflows/ again and see a surprise15:41
balloonsanyone else any comments on videos?15:41
knomeslow pace!15:41
AlbertoSNThe video was uploaded, incompleted15:41
amjjawadballoons: how about one last try?15:42
knomedon't rush with it; if you're taking the time to do a video, make sure it's slow enough so everybody can follow it15:42
amjjawadyou reboot everything and let's try one last time?15:42
balloonsknome, noted :-)15:42
knome(and subtitles in the video help)15:42
balloonsknome, subtitles in english?15:42
knomei could possibly help with some editing if we want some fancy intro sections (or do we have such already)15:42
knomeyep, subtitles in english15:42
DanChapmanwhat areas are we wanting to do videos on?15:43
amjjawadDanChapman: basic tasks15:43
amjjawadto attract newcomers15:43
knomeis there videos for the most basic iso/package testing?15:43
knome"how to report a bug"15:43
amjjawadknome: yes15:43
knome"how to report a test"15:43
knome"how to pick a test you want to run"15:43
knome"how to help debug/triage bugs"15:43
amjjawadthe very basic tasks15:43
DanChapmanknome, ack thanks15:43
chilicuilI'd also like to see more conection between the ubuntu qa community and the ubuntu +1 forums, I think we could grab fast some more collaborators if we could post specifically there more often15:43
balloonsthe idea was to make sure everything in the expanded roles section has a video15:43
amjjawadso that anyone with no previous experience can watch and learn :)15:44
balloonsso knome specifically, not everything you mentioned exists atm15:44
knomei don't think too many developers need videos15:44
balloonsknome, noted.. short, simple, basic stuff15:45
balloonsI noted you offered to help :-)15:45
knomesomething like "how to build testing tools for development" could work15:45
knomebut not complex issues like stuff on autopilot15:45
knometext-based documentation is much more accessible on such things15:46
balloonsok, I also wanted to go over exploratory testing a bit15:46
balloonsone of the goals this cycle is to have the community take ownership over what and how we test. We're encouraging everyone to do exploratory testing all the time.. is this clear to everyone?15:47
balloonsso we need to clear that up then.. how can we communicate and clarify this?15:48
ali1234what exactly do you mean by "the community"?15:48
balloonsbye AlbertoSN.. sorry for the troubles :-)15:48
AlbertoSNBye bya15:48
high_fiversound is goof15:49
balloonsali1234, I mean the qa community team15:49
balloonseveryone here and everyone who's not here but helps test :-)15:49
knomeballoons, i would imagine people do exploratory testing already, but i'm not sure if people report bugs/issues as we want15:49
balloonsknome, I agree. I would like to see people own bugs better and report them15:50
balloonsto some extent I hope invoving the bugsquad helps with this15:50
knomeat least we have several people in a cycle send emails to our -devel mailing list telling they "tested xubuntu" and had played around with it; but can't see them having sent error or bug reports15:50
hggdhthere is a lot of ad hoc testing by people-at-large, but we do not currently have an easy way for the casual tester to report results15:50
ali1234as a person who reports bugs as and when i find them during normal use, i find that i am being asked to do it a totally different way every 6 months and it is becoming a burden15:50
ali1234for example 2 years ago it was enough to do an apport bug. now i'm being asked "oh, also do an iso test" or "oh, also write a test case"15:51
balloonsali1234, I'd like it to be enough to report a bug. I want to informalize how you find it15:51
DanChapmanballoons, it is clear to me. But what about aswell as just saying 'all the time do a weekly call for testing' on the mailing list with an area to 'explore' for that week which will break some newcomers into what areas they should be exploring and an get an idea of how to get involved?15:52
=== LordOfTime is now known as TheLordOfTime
balloonsDanChapman, it's an idea.. I assume over the course of a week people can accomplish something15:54
balloonsit was my intent when we did cadence testing15:54
balloonswe're at the end of the session. I think I'd like to talk about this again, so let's plan to do it. And continue the conversation15:54
knomei think the area which needs clarifying is the priority an proportion of exploratory/general testing15:54
balloonsi'll add it to another session or we'll talk on the list15:54
balloonsknome, I agree.. I want to see this be clarified, easy to understand, and doable15:54
knomeeg. should one rather get a test done one or twice than do some exploratory testing15:54
balloonsWell I'd like to see the general tests run, then exploratory testing15:55
ali1234exploratory testing happens all the time whenever anyone is doing anything15:55
balloonsso run the outlined tests at least once :-) but then go wild15:55
ali1234half the bugs i find, i find them while investigating (or even attempting to report) another bug15:55
knomeand possibly write down some examples what exploratory testing can be and specify the goals (eg. report bugs that you wouldn't find with the regular testing)15:55
knomeballoons, for me, that clarifies it a lot15:55
balloonsall good stuff.. I hate to cut this off. We'll chat again on this soon15:55
* balloons copies out the conversation bits15:56
DanChapmanballoons, another session sounds good15:56
balloonsthanks everyone!15:56
knomeballoons, one last thing is that i think package testing helps a bit with exploratory testing15:56
knomethey are kind of directed to the same direction, fulfilling the same need15:56
knomepleia2, o/15:58
balloonsbrb to start the docs sessoin15:59
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Ubuntu Documentation Team Roundtable | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21980/community-1311-docteam-roundtable/
knomehey jjfrv8 :)16:02
jjfrv8hi, knome16:03
pmatulisis there supposed to be video?16:03
pleia2starts at :05 :)16:03
TheLordOfTimepmatulis: two minutes out ;)16:03
knomelets hope so... there were quite some problems with the hangouts during the last session16:03
pmatulislemme send microwaves through my café16:04
* knome pokes balloons 16:10
pleia2oh good, it's not just me :)16:10
pleia2we're already 5 minutes in :(16:10
knomefortunately it's the lunch break after this session so we're not that tight on time16:12
pmatulisso no vid16:12
pleia2I have to get to work :\16:12
knomenot yet at least16:12
knomepleia2, have fun. i'll volunteer you for all the things nobody else wants to do as we agreed16:13
pleia2nah, I'm around for this session16:13
knomebah ;)16:13
pleia2just not hours into lunch ;)16:13
* knome prods balloons 16:13
pleia2maybe we just start this here in IRC?16:13
dsmythiesYes, lets start16:14
godbykpleia2: Sounds good to me.16:14
pleia2ok, topic 1: How we can improve the "getting started contributing" process16:14
knomeknow which tasks need to be done.16:14
balloonssorry, can everyone see the session?16:14
balloonsis anyone going to join?16:14
pleia2we made improvements this cycle on at least getting some of our desktop contributor docs, so that's good16:14
knomeballoons, says "stand by"16:14
pleia2balloons: we gave up :)16:15
bregmamaybe someone has to join the session?16:15
knomemaybe balloons should share the link where people can try to join16:15
pmatuliswhy is there no vid?16:16
bregmathe link is above the video window16:16
balloonsI feel like no one is hearing my irc pings :-)16:16
knomeballoons, pong16:16
pleia2bregma: I don't see a join link16:16
balloons_udsjoin up: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpjd70fft3117g2ln06viv8s?authuser=0&hl=en16:17
hannieI see Please stand by. Starting soon....16:17
bregma"Join the Hangout on Air" right above the video box ... you probably need to be logged in16:17
TheLordOfTimei think you do16:17
balloonsjoin the hangout and we'll start16:17
TheLordOfTimethe page doesn't show the link unless you've logged in apparently16:17
* TheLordOfTime tested on chrome (logged in) and firefox (not logged in)16:17
pmatulisyou need to join to see the video?  wtf?16:18
knomepmatulis, to see the "join the hangout" link.16:18
balloonsk should be live16:18
TheLordOfTimejust refresh the page if you still see "standby starting soon"16:18
* gQuigs it's live for me16:19
knomeit's live now16:19
knomepleia2, say something16:19
balloonsok, I can't run the session very well as it's quite noisy here16:19
pmatulisthe main screen has a blue avatar thingy16:19
pleia2I said I'd help with the session, specifically not run it :P16:20
balloonsif someone else can walk through the agenda, we should be ready to roll16:20
knomepleia2, just to test the voice works...16:20
Parbovoice works16:20
knomesomebody pick up running the session16:21
knomethanks godbyk!16:22
knomeyeah, *we* should know what needs done first16:23
pmatulisarghh, crosstalk16:25
ParboI hear every sentence twice.16:25
dsmythiesI cann't seem to get onto the hangout. will continue...16:25
Parboa lot of echo, noise16:26
pleia2Parbo: do you have the window open twice?16:26
Parboyes :(16:26
Parbook now16:26
knomewe should look if we can merge some of the content across the different platforms16:27
pmatulisthis is not workable from my side16:28
pmatulisanyone else hearing everything twice?16:28
godbykpmatulis: Pause the YouTube video on the summit.ubuntu.com page.16:29
pmatulisgodbyk: ha ha, gotcha16:29
knomeyeah, but there are also help.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community16:30
knomeis help.ubuntu.com what's essentially installed/shipped in ubuntu?16:30
knomeoh, the pad answers that.16:30
knomeso what's the primary documentation new contributors should start working with?16:31
knome"nice long" ?16:32
ParboI think it very inconvenient to work using bug reports16:32
knomebut the wiki is scarce and outdated.16:34
knomepeterm-ubuntu, exactly!16:34
knome+1 for housekeeping16:35
knometagging is okay, but the most important thing would be to have a good structure that's at all times visible on the wiki/pages16:36
knomeand take care of linking orphans or deleting them.16:37
knomethe community wiki could do with a similar navigation than xubuntu has in the main wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/16:38
workingwriterCan you make the wiki a sandbox for new system doc content?16:41
knomeyep, either it's not documentation or it should be maintained by the doc team16:41
knomethe community wiki says: This is a reference for Ubuntu-related "Howtos, Tips, Tricks, and Hacks."16:41
workingwriter"community help wiki" I like that!16:41
pleia2that's what it's called now :)16:42
NikThBut it has the note : "Note that this is not the official documentation. "16:42
knomenonetheless i think we need to clean it up and try to make it even a bit structured16:42
NikThMaybe we can make it bold or a header or something.16:42
workingwriterif something hasn't been updated in years (heck, pre-Unity), label it 'expired'?16:43
knomeif something is expired, delete it16:44
ParboEver heard of this team https://launchpad.net/~ubforums2ubwiki16:46
dsmythiesyes, people need to use it and submit merge proposals16:46
pmatulisan update that the page *will be deleted* soon16:46
dsmythiesWe need to fix some GNOME issues16:48
dsmythies... with the tools16:48
dsmythiessee my notes in the blueprint page. Re developers don't help16:49
pleia2have a link to the blueprint handy? if I open the summit page again it causes youtube chaos16:49
workingwriterPleia2: See Links at bottom of screen16:50
knomepleia2, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-1311-docteam-roundtable16:50
pleia2knome: thanks16:51
workingwriterNewbie Q: Can blueprints that are scheduled for a release be shared with DocTeam?16:52
balloonsworkingwriter, what do you mean?16:53
=== cyphermox_ is now known as cyphermox
workingwriterSo, if a particular feature is going to be included in a release (as opposed to something to be fixed down the line), can Docs be notified?16:55
dsmythiesI'm sorry that I never figured out how to join the hangout... I tried the whole hour16:56
TheLordOfTimedsmythies: login to the summit page first.  then the link will show up for joining the specific hangout16:57
dsmythiesI did16:57
pleia2dsmythies: anything else to add?16:57
pleia2(sorry you couldn't join :\)16:57
balloonsworkingwriter, yes that is what we hope to fix, but it's not so simple16:57
dsmythiesMy notes are all on the blueprint page, most of which we didn't get to16:57
balloonsthe devs aren't going to notify you directly :-)16:57
teolemonany possibilities to turn desktop ans16:58
teolemonserver guide into latex guide16:58
workingwriterStart planning for Touch now!16:58
ParboWill this log be sent to the list?16:58
teolemonprinted like ubuntu manual ?16:58
pleia2teolemon: we use mallard because that's what upstream gnome uses, I don't see us converting it all to latex17:00
pleia2might be able to produce PDFs from mallard17:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/community-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/19/%23ubuntu-uds-community-1.html
balloonspleia2, everyone, sorry for the troubles at the start. Thanks for the session ;-)17:01
teolemonpleia2 : thanks, that'd be a great thing.17:01
pleia2dsmythies: I'll try to go through the blueprint and make sure your items are on the agenda for the next IRC meeting17:02
pleia2we pretty much just did the basic agenda noted at the top of the blueprint17:02
pleia2time for breakfast! :)17:03
dsmythiesme too17:03
godbyktime for brunch here. :)17:03
* NikTh is away: I'll be back.. later. 17:04
balloonshangout url is up for the startup disk creator session17:49
balloonsthibaut`, howdy17:51
balloonsthibaut`, the notes should be embedded on the page17:52
balloonsdo you see them?17:52
balloons_udsthe hangout url is https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpir5olbrfofa26isscp6690?authuser=0&hl=en17:52
balloons_udsfeel free to join17:53
balloonsthibaut`, ahh, you need to be a part of the etherpad team. we'll fix you right now17:53
balloonsthibaut`, ok I added you as a member17:55
balloonsreload and try again17:55
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Startup Disk Creator redesign & renaming proposal | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21985/community-1311-ubuntu-usb-startup-creator/
cgoldbergla_juyis, i can't login to summit.ubuntu.com.  says my username is already in use.  any ideas?17:56
balloons_udsthibaut`:I added https://launchpad.net/~k1au3-is-37 as a member of the team17:57
balloons_udsfinally signing out and signing back in should work17:57
balloons_uds*fully signing out17:57
la_juyiscgoldberg, o.O17:59
la_juyiscgoldberg, are you using your SSO info?17:59
thibaut`I use the OpenID18:00
cgoldbergla_juyis, yea18:00
gQuigsis the hangout link available?18:01
balloonsfeel free to join the hangout: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpir5olbrfofa26isscp6690?authuser=0&hl=en18:02
balloonsgQuigs, ^^18:02
la_juyiscgoldberg, no idea. when does it say so?18:02
cgoldbergla_juyis, after I click Login and enter credentials.. from agenda page18:03
la_juyiscgoldberg, if you check in login.ubuntu.com, do you see summit as one of the sites you're logged in?18:04
balloonsfeel free to join the hangout: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpir5olbrfofa26isscp6690?authuser=0&hl=en18:04
balloonswe'll start in a min18:04
cgoldbergla_juyis, yes.. says i 'm authenticated18:04
la_juyiscgoldberg, maybe reload summit?18:05
cgoldbergla_juyis, i tried.  it's ok.. jopining hangouts works18:06
xnoxif CD and USB disk are plugged into computer, it's a single click experience.18:07
xnoxlast time usb-creator session was held, there are known bugs to fix, yet there were no developers willing to work on usb-creator.18:08
smbthough i386 experience is a one clock to crash one quite often18:08
xnoxsmb: sure, the solution to that was (a) fix bugs in udisks (b) use direct "dd" method, instead of current partition and move files around.18:09
jderoseFYI, this is something that System76 is interested in. The one thing that I'd add to the list of UX goal is that in should verify the signatures of the ISOs.18:09
xnoxsmb: noone wanted to implement that at the time =) nor had time.18:10
smbxnox, Sounds very familiar ;-P18:10
xnoxjderose: that would be nice.18:10
balloonsxnox, I use the dd approach :-)18:10
jderosewe want the standard  ISO to be the restore procedure, so making this easier and more secure is very good18:11
xnoxsmb: not sure where this specifiction was proposed. but e.g. nobody approached ubuntu-installer@ mailing list about working on usb-creator....18:11
balloonsjderose, so you want sha1 or mf5sum verify?18:11
xnoxjderose: have you seen lp:dell-recovery project? which can restore/reinstall from usb or recovery partitions.18:11
xnoxjderose: a few OEMs use that.18:11
smbxnox, Could not say, the first time I saw this was it appearing as a session here18:12
jderoseballoons: verify SHA256SUMS.gpg, SHA256SUMS18:12
jderosexnox: no, i haven't... very interesting, thanks!18:13
cprofittmy one concern is that the tool be able to make startup disks from non-Ubuntu iso18:13
jderosecprofitt: but aren't  there already many tools out there for arbitrary ISOs?18:14
xnoxcprofitt: at the moment it is indeed very *buntu live-cd specific. if one implements a method which uses "dd" to wipe _all_ data off the usb-disk, then any ISO from any distribution would work.18:14
xnox(as well as UEFI & SB support)18:14
cprofittxnox: why would the disk need to be wiped differently to burn an Ubuntu iso vs. a Fedora iso?18:15
amjjawadballoons: is it fine now? :D18:15
xnoxcprofitt: if one is using "dd" to blast any iso on the disk, then any existing data/partitions will no longer be accessible.18:16
amjjawadso, shall I get ready for the last session or better too sleep? hehe balloons18:16
balloonsamjjawad, what do you mean?18:16
amjjawadthe technical issue?!18:16
amjjawadyou had18:16
balloonsamjjawad, yes18:16
xnoxcprofitt: at the moment the core feature of usb-creator is that it's trying to be non-destructive and can use existing partitions, or repartition and keep existing partitions.18:16
amjjawadcoz I see everything is okay :D18:16
amjjawadgood, then see you in 45mins ;)18:16
xnoxcprofitt: unfortunetely that also makes it unstable =)18:16
cprofittxnox in my particular case I was trying to take a vmware iso and burn it to a USB stick, but start disk creator would not even recognize the iso file18:17
cprofittit would be good to either let user know the .iso is not supported or make it work with other iso files18:18
xnoxcprofitt: correct. but you can do it with "dd" e.g. "dd if=fo.iso of=/dev/sdb" would work.18:18
xnoxcprofitt: hence why it is widely agreed, if usb-creator did simply UI around executing "dd" it would make usb-crator ISO agnostic.18:18
amjjawadhas anyone seen this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=195807318:19
amjjawadperhaps it will help the topic :)18:19
cprofittxnox: I did end up doing it with dd, but it would have been nice to have the start up disk program tell me that it would not recognize non-Ubuntu isos18:20
jderosere backend library: there isn't much needed, and this is something i've been experimenting with. i think the dd-like approach is the best approach, and it's very easy to do this is a way that gives a good user experience (aka, a progress bar that reflects the true projects)18:20
xnoxcprofitt: i see.18:21
balloonsjderose, xnox care to describe the dd approach more?18:22
xnoxballoons: so at the moment usb-creator: creates or re-uses existing partition on the usb-stick, installs a boot loader into mbr, and puts the files off the iso on the usb-stick such that at boot they are found.18:22
xnoxballoons: with "dd", one has graphical UI about executing "dd if=my.iso of=/dev/sdb" which blasts bit-to-bit identical .iso image to the usb stick.18:23
xnoxballoons: it's more realiable and gives you UEFI & SecureBoot support and supports any .iso out there (debian, fedora, etc)18:24
jderose(er, i'm not suggesting to wrap dd because you can't deliver a progress bar this way. but i'm saying to do something dd-like)18:24
xnoxjderose: correct =)18:24
xnoxjderose: one can send signals to dd to get progress information FYI, see man page.18:24
balloonsjderose, xnox.. ahh so merely you think it would be useful to support any iso, but be geared towards ubuntu?18:24
xnoxballoons: the downside to "dd" method is that one no-longer can use usb-disk for anything else e.g.: no persistance support, no ability to keep existing files, nor use the rest of the available space at all.18:25
balloonsxnox, yes indeed it is a downside18:25
xnox(e.g. a 32GB usb-stick, becomes a 900MB stick which has Read-only ubuntu iso only)18:25
xnoxjderose: see $ man dd18:25
balloonsxnox, et la, would we rather have it stupidly simple and rock solid or ?18:25
balloonsxnox, well, heh, yea I suppose that ends up problematic18:26
jsjgruber-udsThe current .iso's have the have CD-device-dependent stuff on it to change the ongoing process. Whether to launch the CD to test Ubuntu, or to do an install for example.18:26
jsjgruber-udsThere are different versions of syslinux.18:27
or211I am using unetbootin with a slightly modified ubuntu 12.04 iso file and it creates a bootable stick with persistent storage18:27
xnoxjsjgruber-uds: i'm sorry, i don't understand what you said at all.18:27
jderoseballoons: yes, i think the biggest UX holes are downloading the ISO, verifying the ISO, finding where you saved the file, etc. i'd like a one stop, one screen tool. especially for the System76 restore procedure :)18:28
xnoxor211: "persistance" is easy create partition or a file, and pass a boot option to that partition/file.18:28
jsjgruber-udsxnox : just booting a .iso that is copied to a usb stick won't work by itself.18:28
xnoxor211: it's the same as with usb-creator.18:28
chilukhas anyone here actually attempted to fix usb-creator?18:28
jderosethis was one of my little python3 prototypes for doing a synchronous dd-like write - http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jderose/+junk/scripts/view/head:/usb-create.py18:29
xnoxjsjgruber-uds: right, if one copies it as a file => inedeed it doesn't work. But if one uses "dd" and replace the whole block device (/dev/sdb, not /dev/sdb1). Then the usb-stick will boot in BIOS, UEFI, and SecureBoot valires.18:29
or211Yes but unetbootin will not generate a stick with persistent storage with the standard ubuntu 12.04 iso18:29
xnoxjsjgruber-uds: not that dd is block level copy, not file-level copy. and then the bootloader as provided by the iso will be used.18:29
xnoxor211: ah, that's bad. a regression compared with usb-creator.18:30
* xnox doesn't know much how unetbootin works under the hood.18:30
or211I modified the initrd to create the persistence file at first boot18:30
xnoxsounds scary.18:31
or211you do not have to create a partition.. you can create a file if the file system is read write...18:32
or211my persistence file is also encrypted18:33
xnoxusb-creator uses the file approach by default.18:33
popeypad is back18:33
xnoxnot encrypted however, which is also an often requested feature.18:33
or211Encrypted penitence file are often required in enterprise environments18:34
or211unetbootin are also available on Mac18:34
chiluki have another solution... copy iso directly to fat32 usb stick.. install grub2, and use loopback to boot the iso directly18:36
chilukthat's what I do personally, and manually18:37
xnoxmaking usb-creator cross-platform would be cool. At the moment we don't have any ubuntu branded app to do that. in the past it was suggested to extend wubi to support that.18:37
xnoxchiluk: sure, does that work with UEFI/SecureBoot?18:37
chilukit should work... i think.18:38
chilukyou'd just have to install grub-efi, and loopback boot the secure kernel18:38
xnoxchiluk: i'd be happy with loopback if we could extract / reuse the signed shim from the iso and stick in the right path on the partion.18:38
xnoxchiluk: well the first loader must be signed =)18:38
chilukxnox, you know more than me about that.18:38
chilukI'd defer to your experience18:38
xnoxchiluk: last time I couldn't manage to use grub2 loopback, do you have any tutorials / examples / stored notes how to use it?18:39
chilukxnox the grub you install to the usb key could be signed18:39
smbxnox, Maybe that still works https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Dev/MultipleISOBootUSBKey18:39
chilukxnox this looks similar to what I do https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2/ISOBoot/Examples18:39
chilukalthough I haven't set it up to work with my uefi machines yet.. so I don't knwo.18:40
xnoxsmb: chiluk: excellent! i'll see if that works for BIOS, and that will be more reliable than current methods.18:40
xnoxsmb: chiluk: and if that is already grub2 it should be fairly compatible with grub-efi / SecureBoot.18:41
smbxnox, It says grub.cfg in the instructuions so it should be grub218:41
jsjgruber-udsBefore release I think it's very important to test on many computers. There seem to be many problems on askubuntu with people trying to use disk creator that seem to depend on their hardware or configuration...and it's hard to help them remotely.18:43
xnoxjsjgruber-uds: true dat, the problem however is with "ubuntu-1" creating "ubuntu+1" images. thus a fixed ubiquity for trusty, will for the first time be properly used by trusty users to create e.g. "trusty+1,+2 etc" images =/18:43
AzendaleI haven't been able to be present for all of this session. But the mockup does not have a browse option, which seems like it should have if it's an app someone will use just once.18:45
balloonsAzendale, what do you mean browse?18:46
balloonsplan is to show just ubuntu images, but allow any to be loaded18:46
Azendalefor an ISO on the hard drive that is not where the application searches by default18:46
balloonsthat would be allowed18:46
Azendaleballoons: would that require going into the preferences?18:47
balloonsAzendale, everything is a mockup for now18:48
Azendaleballoons: ok18:48
balloonsbut no18:48
nuclearbob-mobilI'm interested in maybe some of the Dev work18:49
cprofittgotta run to a meeting folks... good session thanks18:49
nuclearbob-mobilWhichever involves the most python318:51
nuclearbob-mobilYeah, I'll take a look18:52
jderoseer, Thibaut Brandscheid: what IRC nick are you? :)18:52
AzendaleIf anyone is trying to make something that uses Zsync as a library, look at https://code.launchpad.net/~azendale/+junk/zsync-gtk18:57
AzendaleIt's not finished, but it's a start at librarifying zsync (so in my case I could make a gui)18:58
balloonsxnox, chiluk if you wouldn't mind adding a note about your approach with grub2 that would be great18:58
jderoseAzendale: neat, i'll check it out18:58
balloonsfeel free to grab an action to just report back to the blueprint your findings if you don't mind18:58
balloonsxnox, chiluk ^^ TYTY18:59
balloonsAzendale, interesting..18:59
amjjawadballoons: before we go on air for the last session today, let's test me and you the quality of voice, please :)18:59
balloonshangout details for qa && bugsquad are up19:00
TheLordOfTimeballoons: link please19:00
xnoxballoons: i think i'll just implement grub2 in usb-creator upstream, as i am upstream. I wasn't watching the video of this session as I had a conflict.19:00
TheLordOfTime(system isn't pointing me to the Hangout link)19:00
balloonsamjjawad, I've no choice on my current setup.. you get what you get19:00
balloonsfor better or worse :-)19:00
amjjawadballoons: :(19:00
amjjawadokay, let's see - link please balloons :)19:00
balloons_udshangout link ^^19:00
xnoxballoons: it's kind of sad that nobody from existing usb-creator / installer team was asked to be here. or that none of these plans where discussed with the right people ahead of time.19:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Track: Community | Merging bugsquad and the community QA team | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21987/community-1311-quality-bugsquad/
TheLordOfTimenot sure if my audio is working... :/19:03
elfyTheLordOfTime: we'll soon see ;)19:05
elfyor hear19:05
elfyor not :p19:05
TheLordOfTimeapparently it works for me :)19:05
balloons_udsanyone who wants to join the hangout, please do so: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en19:05
balloonsxnox, I tried to broadcast to everyone. it seemed like dustin was going to come19:06
balloonsbut he didn't?19:06
balloonsk, starting time19:07
knomeyes please19:07
xnoxballoons: dustin?! the people who worked on usb creator are Ev, Colin Watson and I.....19:08
balloonsxnox, whoops19:11
balloonsxnox, :-( My apologies for grabbing the wrong people.19:11
xnoxballoons: =) well, next time "core" packages come into community track ask around "core" track what to do with them? =)19:12
balloons_udsbdmurray: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en19:14
balloons_udsor anyone else wanting in the hangout, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en19:14
knomeelfy, ^19:14
knome+1 for keeping those parts separated19:15
j_f-fbut communication needs to be improved19:19
knomethere are basically always too little testers; we did get nice results last time though and were able to pump up the tests greatly19:19
knomei think these concerns are partly unrelated to merging the teams19:21
TheLordOfTime[13/11/19 14:14:27] <balloons_uds> or anyone else wanting in the hangout, https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpjdtajpq8o0l87ot2k3hv2s?authuser=0&hl=en19:21
knomei suppose both of the teams struggle with similar problems19:21
knomebut ultimately, there is overlap on the tasks for both teams, so it definitely makes sense to merge19:22
knomewe have 118 members in ~xubuntu-testers, but many of those think testing is something different than the developers do.19:23
chilicuilthe qa team in my opinion requires the experience of bug control, we're not going anywhere if we're not at least triaging the bugs we find19:23
knomeit's possible some of them are just badge collectors19:23
balloonsknome, badge collectors, heh?19:24
knomeballoons, yeah, just collecting those team badges in LP19:24
elfymake it moderated? I'd rather know I definitely had 15 than might have 100 :)19:24
Letozaf_maybe involving Local Coomunity Teams to spread the word for the need of testers would be a good idea, they could reach out to people we cannot reach using usual means19:24
balloonsmoderation is a possibiity19:24
knomeelfy, you're the administrator... :)19:24
knome+1 for chilicuil's comment19:24
knomeboth reporting a test and being able to triage the bugs in the report look like an integral part of QA19:25
knomein the beginning, i assume the teams will keep working as they are working now19:25
elfymany people are just going to wander off if they look at the triaging wiki ;)19:26
balloonselfy, wiki too crazy?19:26
knomeballoons, rather the triaging instructions ;)19:26
elfyballoons: when I looked it was a 'riiiight, ok then' moment ;)19:27
knomei think it depends on the person if they prefer wiki or video19:28
elfyof course19:28
knomewe could cover these questions on the videos we talked before19:28
j_f-f+100 amjjawad19:29
knomeyep, low-hanging fruit ++19:31
knomeif you want to put it other way, think like the tasks the ubuntu bugsquad are doing are tasks for yet another role or two19:33
balloonsany other concerns for merging?19:39
amjjawadballoons: what was your Q? sorry, couldn't hear it19:39
elfyballoons: I'm in agreement with merging the team ;)19:39
knome+1 for merging.19:40
Letozaf_I think testing and taking care of bugs is closely related so +1 to merging19:40
amjjawadI think having one mailing list is logical to me19:45
elfybdmurray: totally agree with that19:45
knomedoes the bugsquad mailing list have any automated mails?19:45
elfywe agreed on something amjjawad :D19:45
amjjawadelfy: oh yes indeed ;)19:45
knomemy only concern is if -bugsquad is too high traffic19:46
amjjawadknome: no it is not19:46
chilicuilI'd like to see automated msgs from the qa ubuntu new report testers to #ubuntu-bugs to help bring them attention, not sure if we should mix the channels19:46
amjjawadI am subscribed to it and there is no much traffic19:46
knomein that case +1 for merging those as well.19:46
amjjawadknome: good :D19:46
knomeand let's not rename pages either.19:49
amjjawadknome: +119:49
amjjawadelfy: we agreed again ;)19:50
amjjawadso what other things we need to discuss beside mailing list and wiki?19:50
knomethe weekly/monthly meetings we're having will come handy19:52
amjjawadI guess it is not a high priority to setup a LP area for now. I think it is better to do that as a final step19:53
amjjawadbut yes, at the end, both should be on the same team on LP19:54
amjjawadIMHO :)19:54
amjjawadballoons: +1 :)19:56
knomeultimately we only need separate LP teams if a certain team needs specific access rights in LP.19:56
amjjawadknome: +119:56
elfyplnety of time for LP19:57
knomemaybe people on -quality should join the bugsquad channel to see what they think and reassess after a week or so19:57
knomeballoons, ^19:57
amjjawadknome: I guess most are there already19:57
knomei'm not.19:58
amjjawadknome: then join ;)19:58
AlbertoSNTeams are fusioning...19:58
knomeballoons, remember to notice the CC.19:59
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-community-1 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/community-1/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/19/%23ubuntu-uds-community-1.html
AlbertoSNGood nite20:00
amjjawadgood night AlbertoSN20:00
j_f-fthanks @all20:00
balloonsty everyone!20:01
elfycheers balloons20:05
toptahi all22:32

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