[05:04] <Kilos> morning superfly and others
[05:08] <Kilos> hi mazal 
[05:08] <mazal> More oom
[05:29] <Squirm> morning
[05:29] <Kilos> hi Squirm 
[05:54] <Kilos> hi bduk1 
[06:06] <ThatGraemeGuy_> morning
[06:13] <Kilos> hi ThatGraemeGuy 
[06:25] <bduk1> More Kilos  and all others
[06:27] <Kilos> tecnology is wonderful. got a small plastic half box thing with 3x 1.5v batteries in and a led. led changes colours from reg to blue to white but i cant find what is changing the colours
[06:28] <Kilos> must be something in the led itself. there is nothing else
[06:29] <Kilos> magic smagic
[06:36] <Kilos> technology
[07:26] <Kilos> hi Vince-0 !
[07:32] <Vince-0> !
[07:50] <mazal> How can I set a folder's permissions to be sticky so that all files and folders created in that folder automatically get's those specified permissions of the sub folder
[07:50] <mazal> I tried investigating the option of chmod , but I fail to get it right
[08:15] <Kilos> just one folder mazal ?
[08:15] <Kilos> have you tried chowning it
[08:22] <mazal> Kilos, my problem is , I have a folder that is shared for 2 users
[08:22] <mazal> So I put them both in the same group ne
[08:22] <mazal> And I give the folder permissions for that group
[08:22] <mazal> BUT
[08:23] <Kilos> hi nlsthzn 
[08:23] <mazal> When user A creates a doc or folder inside that , only he has permissions to the file or folder
[08:23] <mazal> By default everything a user creates is set for permissions to only him , even inside a shared folder
[08:23] <mazal> So now user B can't do anything on user A's docs and visa versa
[08:24] <Kilos> has user be no admin rights
[08:24] <mazal> And one can't go and manually run a chmod every 10 minutes on everything inside there
[08:24] <Kilos> who is user B
[08:25] <mazal> Doesn't matter who he is
[08:25] <Vince-0> I think you need umask settings
[08:25] <nlsthzn> morning all
[08:26] <mazal> Ag what is wrong with this ubuntu now again today
[08:26] <mazal> can't minimize any windows **sigh**
[08:27] <Kilos> hehe make lotsa workspaces
[08:29] <mazal> And the launcher went bonkers as well
[08:29] <mazal> Mind of its own
[08:31] <Kilos> eish
[09:02] <mazal> Is this syntex correct: sudo apt-get dist-upgrade ?
[09:04] <confluency> No. There's a separate command for doing a distribution upgrade.
[09:04] <confluency> I'm pretty sure it's do-release-upgrade
[09:04] <mazal> No that's not what I'm looking for
[09:05] <confluency> What are you trying to do?
[09:05] <mazal> It's the one that is "better" than just sudo apt-get upgrade , the one that does the kernels as well
[09:05] <Kilos> aptitude upgrade
[09:05] <mazal> The apt-get one is dist-upgrade ne oom Kilos ?
[09:06] <Kilos> the fly told me not to use dist-upgrade
[09:06] <Kilos> aptitude does what you need
[09:06] <confluency> Apparently dist-upgrade will install new kernels. It does other things as well, though, which may not be desirable.
[09:06] <confluency> Why not just install the kernels separately?
[09:09] <mazal> I usually do it with update manager , but I also use apt-get upgrade a lot , but that always skip the kernels
[09:09] <confluency> You can do it on the commandline too. Just apt-get install [whatever kernel packages upgrade told you it held back].
[09:09] <Kilos> yes thats right but aptitude upgrade does the kernels
[09:09] <Kilos> hi psyatw 
[09:10]  * Kilos greets confluency 
[09:10] <confluency> Hello
[09:10] <Kilos> you not an aptitude fan confluency 
[09:10] <confluency> I've never had a compelling reason to use it.
[09:10] <psyatw> hi Kilos
[09:10] <psyatw> hi confluency
[09:11] <mazal> Kilos, only thing I don't like about aptitude is the stuff it automatically removes. Makes me nervous
[09:11] <Kilos> only thing i find with aptitude is that it doesnt care about locked versions
[09:11] <Kilos> just read it mazal it gives solutions and all for probs
[09:12] <Kilos> it wont remove stuff unless you accept it
[09:13] <Kilos> so you have the choice to first see what it wants to remove
[09:13] <Kilos> maybe its some of that stuff thats causing all your probs\
[09:14] <mazal> sudo aptitude upgrade now suddenly gives nothing
[09:14] <mazal> Nothing it wants to remove I mean
[09:15] <Kilos> lol
[09:15] <Kilos> it normally only removes unneccesary stuff
[09:15] <mazal> Looks like Ubuntu decided it's test mazal week again
[09:15] <Kilos> lol
[09:16] <Kilos> you made it sick now it want revenge
[09:16] <mazal> Last time I ran it it wanted to remove a ton of stuff and I canceled and didn't let it
[09:16] <mazal> It wasn't me , I didn't do anything
[09:16] <Kilos> ja ja
[09:18] <Kilos> normally the stuff it wants to remove are unused dependancies and so on that arent needed anymore
[09:19] <Kilos> just always read what it wants to remove, as long as it doesnt show ubuntu-desktop you are safe
[09:21] <mazal> I wonder what happened to all the ones it wanted to remove the last time
[09:21] <Kilos> they are being used for something or apt-get removed them for you
[09:21] <Kilos> or the update manager
[09:29] <mazal> grrrrrrrrr
[09:29] <Kilos> wat nou
[09:30] <mazal> You see , I can't minimize or close windows. Now I went and right-click on the active chrome on the launcher to close it from there , choose quit , and it closes my xchat
[09:30] <mazal> Instead of chrome
[09:30] <Kilos> lol
[09:30]  * mazal munbels some crude words
[09:31] <Kilos> wait
[09:31] <Kilos> you can set it in settings somewhere what xchat uses to get online with
[09:31] <Kilos> yours is most likely using chrome
[09:33] <superfly> ohai, before I leave my PC again
[09:34] <Kilos>  mhi my fly
[09:34] <Kilos> you too busy man
[09:51] <mazal> Now I closed nautilus and it closed xchat again
[09:51] <mazal> Die ding is mal
[09:51] <Kilos> ai
[09:51] <Kilos> you got some bug there
[10:01] <Kilos> you need clever peeps to help find that prob
[10:24] <confluency> mazal: is this a continuing problem, or did it just start now?
[10:39] <theblazehen> ThatGraemeGuy_: hi. You busy right now? Saw you in #reddit-sysadmin, wanted to chat a bit to a sysadmin as I am thinking of choosing that as a career path
[10:46] <Vince-0> !
[10:47] <theblazehen> Vince-0: ?
[10:47] <Vince-0> sysadmins not what it used to be
[10:47] <Vince-0> read up on devops
[10:47] <theblazehen> ah ok?
[10:47] <theblazehen> thanks
[10:48] <theblazehen> sysadmin bad now?
[10:49] <Vince-0> no its all sysadmin
[10:50] <Vince-0> but you need to look at the way its changing
[10:50] <theblazehen> ah ok
[10:50] <Vince-0> at least in the first world countries, servers aren't single instance items you baby their whole existence. They become disposable
[10:51] <theblazehen> yeah
[10:51] <Vince-0> the best thing to do is get some job feeds and see what the requirements are like. South Africa is pretty dismal on the Linux front - we're 5 years behind and there exists 'not so open' people networks
[10:52] <theblazehen> ah ok
[10:52] <Vince-0> take this one for instance: http://www.careerweb.co.za/Common/ViewJob.asp?JobID=058059062049048048008
[10:52] <Vince-0> pretty legacy stuff
[10:52] <theblazehen> ok
[10:53] <theblazehen> yeah :/
[10:54] <Vince-0> vs this: http://rocketrecruit.co.za/site/?page_id=145
[10:54] <Vince-0> same one here : http://www.pnet.co.za/index.php?s=advert_view&g=6224&i=1
[10:55] <Vince-0> in any case, first steps are Linux+, LPIC1,2,3 or RHCE
[10:55] <theblazehen> yeah
[10:55] <theblazehen> So you would recommend devops?
[10:56] <Vince-0> I think a guy from this or another channel actually went for that Amazon interview
[10:56] <Vince-0> not easy
[10:56] <Vince-0> devops is like sysadmin on steriods 'cos you fit into SDLC and dev environment as well
[10:56] <theblazehen> ah ok
[10:56] <Vince-0> still need to know the fundamentals
[10:56] <theblazehen> yeah
[10:57] <Vince-0> in fact I'm getting a job spec for just such a position in Durban today
[10:57] <theblazehen> ah nice
[10:58] <Vince-0> some points from other job specs: 
[10:58] <Vince-0> DNS+SPF+MX, MTAs like Postfix etc, Anti spam, SMTP etc
[10:58] <Vince-0> networking concepts (NAT, Routing, etc).  Cisco 
[10:58] <Vince-0> netstat, ps, strace, postfix, tomcat, apache2, iptables, scripting
[10:59] <Vince-0> Novell product experience
[10:59] <theblazehen> whoah, ok
[11:02] <Vince-0> why sysadmins can't code: http://cuddletech.com/blog/?p=817
[11:04] <Vince-0> here's webafrica's job bounty: http://www.hiringbounty.com/job/view/299/linux-systems-administrator
[11:04] <theblazehen> ty
[11:04] <Vince-0> so rather than be a 'sysadmin' you need to master every aspect of the system and the Linux kernel and distro's are the tools to implement said solution.
[11:05] <theblazehen> yeah. And for devops ?
[11:05] <Vince-0> that's why there's always "Linxux" and security/database/network/software admin positions
[11:06] <Vince-0> devops is literally development + operations so it has more coding angle
[11:06] <theblazehen> ah ok
[11:06] <Vince-0> for distributed systems
[11:06] <theblazehen> I don't like the dev angle THAT much though
[11:07] <Vince-0> one wouldn't use devops methods on a solution of 5 machines but on 100+ maybe
[11:07] <theblazehen> ah ok
[11:07] <Vince-0> well, sysadmin becomes more like dev eventually. After 5 years of admin work you will want to move up
[11:07] <theblazehen> ah ok
[11:07] <Vince-0> so far I haven't even go there
[11:08] <Vince-0> got*
[11:08] <theblazehen> ok
[11:08] <Vince-0> here's a good post from Puppet Labs: they make solutions for distributed systems:
[11:08] <Vince-0> http://puppetlabs.com/blog/what-is-a-devops-engineer
[11:08] <theblazehen> ty
[11:08] <Vince-0> since SA is a bit behind, there will be lots of room for growth
[11:09] <Vince-0> np
[11:09] <theblazehen> yeah
[11:11] <inetpro> good evening
[11:12] <inetpro> oh and hi Kilos
[11:12] <theblazehen> hi inetpro Kilos
[11:12] <inetpro> hello theblazehen
[11:12] <Kilos> hi inetpro 
[11:12] <inetpro> glad to see you guys are still alive here
[11:12] <Kilos> hi theblazehen 
[11:12]  * inetpro almost forgot about you
[11:13] <Vince-0> between some stupid postfix work
[11:13] <Kilos> me?
[11:13] <inetpro> Kilos: never
[11:13] <Kilos> ah
[11:13] <inetpro> :-)
[11:14] <Kilos> my lucky day
[11:15] <Kilos> oh forgot my weekly smileys
[11:15] <Kilos> :-) :) <3
[11:20] <ThatGraemeGuy_> theblazehen: what do you want to know?
[11:22] <theblazehen> Pretty much which part of the career is enjoyable, which are not enjoyable, which parts are challenging, which similar careers are there (eg. devops)
[11:22] <ThatGraemeGuy_> devops is not a job
[11:22] <ThatGraemeGuy_> its a way of working
[11:22] <theblazehen> ok]
[11:24] <ThatGraemeGuy_> also, that's a pretty broad question, not really sure where to start ;)
[11:24] <ThatGraemeGuy_> where are you now in terms of career timeline?
[11:25] <theblazehen> Still in high school :/
[11:25] <ThatGraemeGuy_> ok cool
[11:26] <ThatGraemeGuy_> my path may not be typical, e.g. i have no formal tertiary education
[11:26] <theblazehen> ok
[11:27] <ThatGraemeGuy_> but i left school with the idea of being a chartered accountant and that didn't work out and i moved into IT
[11:27] <theblazehen> ah 
[11:28] <ThatGraemeGuy_> but from there i followed the traditional path
[11:28] <theblazehen> which is? CS/IT --> ?
[11:29] <ThatGraemeGuy_> no i mean in terms of career progression
[11:29] <theblazehen> ok
[11:29] <ThatGraemeGuy_> so first job was pretty much just desktop support stuff
[11:29] <ThatGraemeGuy_> install apps, configure printers, fix broken stuff
[11:29] <theblazehen> k
[11:29] <ThatGraemeGuy_> i started touching on netware server and later windows 2000 just before i left
[11:29] <theblazehen> ok
[11:31] <ThatGraemeGuy_> next job i looked after a small network across 2 offices, still primarily desktop stuff, a bit more server stuff and I had an external consulting company to fall back on for the tougher stuff
[11:31] <ThatGraemeGuy_> got retrenched, stressed a lot
[11:32] <ThatGraemeGuy_> lucked upon a 6-month contract sitting on helpdesk, when that ran out i ran into some more luck and stepped into the main sysadmin role at the same company which became available
[11:32] <theblazehen> ah nice
[11:33] <ThatGraemeGuy_> was there for about 4 years, moved to a big corporate, hated it, left after not even a year
[11:33] <ThatGraemeGuy_> those 4 years a learned a TON though
[11:33] <ThatGraemeGuy_> got lots of pieces of paper with microsoft logos on them which primarily helped boost the paycheque :)
[11:33] <theblazehen> ah ok :)
[11:34] <ThatGraemeGuy_> after the big corporate i went to a company that provides outsourced IT services for people who couldn't be bothered to have their own IT staff
[11:34] <ThatGraemeGuy_> some people just don't need full time IT people
[11:35] <theblazehen> yeah
[11:35] <ThatGraemeGuy_> didn't enjoy that much, left to work at a big local website
[11:35] <theblazehen> ah ok
[11:35] <ThatGraemeGuy_> maybe worth noting up until this point its all pretty much Windows stuff
[11:36] <theblazehen> ok
[11:36] <ThatGraemeGuy_> 2009 i started at the big local website, and more or less drifted towards the linux side, as the windows stuff there was pretty minimal
[11:36] <theblazehen> yeah
[11:36] <superfly> which is where I met ThatGraemeGuy_
[11:36] <superfly> :-)
[11:36] <ThatGraemeGuy_> yes, shame.... sorry about that ;)
[11:37] <superfly> ThatGraemeGuy_: hardly, I'm more sorry you had to work with me
[11:37] <ThatGraemeGuy_> so i was there for 4.5 years and learnt a HUUUGE amount
[11:37] <theblazehen> ok
[11:38] <ThatGraemeGuy_> and now at my current job its all linux all the time
[11:38] <theblazehen> nice
[11:38] <ThatGraemeGuy_> so i'm pretty sure none of that probably answered any of your questions ;-)
[11:39] <theblazehen> Well answered a way I can become sysadmin :p
[11:39] <theblazehen> helldesk -> etc
[11:39] <ThatGraemeGuy_> the enjoyable part is that there is always something new to keep the brain engaged
[11:39] <ThatGraemeGuy_> the less enjoyable part is that some people are asses
[11:39] <theblazehen> yeah
[11:39] <ThatGraemeGuy_> and some people are MONUMENTAL asses
[11:39] <superfly> You can also start as a developer, and move into Sysadmin too...
[11:40] <theblazehen> Management or users mostly?
[11:40] <superfly> another way
[11:40] <theblazehen> superfly: was that how you went?
[11:40] <ThatGraemeGuy_> if you're in the game long enough you will encounter idiocy at all levels
[11:40] <theblazehen> yeah
[11:40] <superfly> theblazehen: I'm not a sysadmin, I'm a developer
[11:40] <theblazehen> superfly: ah ok
[11:41] <ThatGraemeGuy_> on the sysadmin side, you generall start out on helpdesk and/or desktop support
[11:41] <theblazehen> yeah
[11:42] <ThatGraemeGuy_> and if things work out right you eventually move up away from user-level issues more towards system-level issues
[11:42] <ThatGraemeGuy_> and depending what you enjoy you can go in specialist directions
[11:42] <theblazehen> How long would it normally take helldesk -> sysadmin?
[11:42] <ThatGraemeGuy_> so maybe more networking stuff, or virtualisation, or storage networks, etc.
[11:43] <theblazehen> yeah
[11:43] <ThatGraemeGuy_> its hard to say, it depends on your capacity for learning, the opportunities that present themselves and the people you work with
[11:43] <theblazehen> ok thanks
[11:44] <ThatGraemeGuy_> in my case, in 2002 i started at the desktop/sysadmin job
[11:44] <theblazehen> ah ok
[11:45] <ThatGraemeGuy_> the management there were pretty laid back, as long as things were not on fire, i could pretty much do what i want, so i had a lot of opportunity to learn
[11:45] <theblazehen> ah nice
[11:45] <ThatGraemeGuy_> spare hardware + internet access + time
[11:45] <theblazehen> yeah
[11:46] <ThatGraemeGuy_> by the time i was retrenched there in 2004 i was what most would consider a junior sysadmin
[11:46] <theblazehen> ok
[11:47] <ThatGraemeGuy_> i could push most of the server buttons to do regular stuff, add users, reset password, backup and restore from tape
[11:47] <theblazehen> yeah
[11:47] <ThatGraemeGuy_> i wasn't building highly available mysql clusters though :)
[11:47] <theblazehen> yeah :p
[11:47] <theblazehen> You do that now?
[11:48] <ThatGraemeGuy_> then 2004-2007 i also had ample opportunity to learn
[11:48] <theblazehen> k
[11:49] <ThatGraemeGuy_> big stuff we tended to outsource to a consulting company, but i made sure that i worked very closely with them and did a lot of my own research whenever they mentioned anything that i wasn't familiar with
[11:50] <ThatGraemeGuy_> also it helps that the guys who ran the consulting company were quite chill as well so they were happy to share information and help me out when i got stuck with stuff
[11:50] <theblazehen> ah OK nice
[11:50] <ThatGraemeGuy_> by the time i left there were some things that would've been outsourced in the past that i would handle almost on my own
[11:51] <ThatGraemeGuy_> e.g. an exchange server upgrade i did, where i put the plan together and then just asked them to look it over and comment
[11:52] <theblazehen> yeah
[11:53] <ThatGraemeGuy_> you need to have a natural curiosity for this stuff. its not enough to know "do X then do Y", the good sysadmin wants to know more detail
[11:53] <ThatGraemeGuy_> so yeah, a natural curiosity, a thick skin :)
[11:53] <theblazehen> yeah :) 
[11:53] <ThatGraemeGuy_> and a bit of luck to be in the right place at the right time
[11:53] <theblazehen> I'm good with curiosity
[11:54] <theblazehen> currently running an Ubuntu server with pxe booting and lvm for example
[11:54] <theblazehen> did it in a weekend just because
[11:55] <theblazehen> with a transparent squid proxy
[11:55] <ThatGraemeGuy_> and yes, i do have to put up highly available mysql clusters now
[11:55] <ThatGraemeGuy_> they actually asked me to do it as part of my interview process
[11:55] <theblazehen> ooh nice
[12:37] <Kilos> hi tal0n 
[12:38] <tal0n> hi Kilos 
[13:45] <Vince-0> readin: http://davidplanella.org/empowering-loco-teams-at-uds/
[14:22] <nlsthzn> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22027/intro-by-jono-bacon-keynote-by-mark-shuttleworth/
[14:22] <nlsthzn> uds startung
[14:22] <nlsthzn> *starting
[14:52] <Kilos> hoop jy tuis inetpro ! dit storm nou hier
[14:53] <inetpro> eish!
[14:53] <theblazehen> Kilos: how bad?
[14:53] <Kilos> not bad
[14:53] <theblazehen> thats good
[14:53] <Kilos> and not too close yet. odds drops of rain
[14:53] <Kilos> coming from the north i think
[14:55] <theblazehen> Ah, yay
[14:55] <Kilos> hi up dark clouds moving in from the west
[14:55] <Kilos> you might make it inetpro 
[14:56] <Kilos> listen to the falling rain, listen to it fall
[14:58] <Kilos> hmm... hail as well
[14:59] <Kilos> rather noisy on a zink roof
[15:00] <theblazehen> Hmm, sucks Kilos :/ I enjoy hail
[15:04] <Kilos> ya me  too. its good for growing things
[15:04] <Kilos> bad for fruit already forming though
[15:05] <Kilos> nitrogen from the sky
[15:05] <theblazehen> yeah
[15:09] <Kilos> we got massive mulberry trees, can normally make about 5kg of mulberry jam yearly but the last cold snap wiped everything
[15:09] <Kilos> none this year sigh
[15:36] <inetpro> dankie oom Kilos
[15:36] <Kilos> enige tyd boetie
[15:37] <inetpro> net 'n paar druppeltjies wat my gevang het
[15:37] <Kilos> mooi
[15:37] <inetpro> hoop maar ons het nie die watertjies weggejaag nie
[15:38] <Kilos> dit lyk of dit hier verby is nou
[15:46] <Kilos> 7mm
[15:46] <Kilos> baie meer as 3mm
[16:16] <Kilos> hmm...
[16:16] <Kilos> domdonner ticked the wrong place
[17:36] <nlsthzn> it happens
[17:37] <Kilos> lol
[18:21] <Kilos> hmm...
[18:25] <theblazehen_> Kilos: hmm...?
[18:25] <Kilos> i gotta star a business or something and looking at virtual businesses
[18:26] <Kilos> very hard to get into the head all the virtual stuff
[18:26] <Kilos> s/star/start
[18:45] <theblazehen_> ah ok
[19:03] <Kilos> you growing up at the right time
[19:04] <Kilos> all this stuff is part of your life
[19:04] <Kilos> i go sleep now
[19:04] <Kilos> night all, sleep tight]