| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-core-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/core-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/20/%23ubuntu-uds-core-2.html | ||
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-core-2 to: Track: Core | Improve the cross-compilation story for Ubuntu Touch by 14.04 | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21991/core-1311-cross-compilation/ | ||
| slangasek | https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpj1uhgvnl346mfisfouopu0 | 13:58 |
|---|---|---|
| dholbach | did anyone press the "go live" button already? :) | 14:02 |
| slangasek | no | 14:02 |
| apw | feels like not here | 14:02 |
| slangasek | we're missing doko, trying to decide if it's worth having the session for :) | 14:02 |
| pitti | slangasek: he pinged me half an hour ago, he's on crappy mobile network | 14:02 |
| slangasek | ok | 14:02 |
| pitti | not good enough for hangouts | 14:03 |
| slangasek | not even audio? | 14:03 |
| pitti | I don't know | 14:03 |
| pitti | he said "let's see.." | 14:03 |
| apw | slangasek, we can see you | 14:05 |
| pmcgowan | hear you | 14:05 |
| Saviq | \o/ | 14:05 |
| pbass | we see you | 14:05 |
| * xnox runs off to find my 2fa token. | 14:06 | |
| doko | slangasek, I'm online, lets see how this works out ... | 14:06 |
| slangasek | doko: ok - https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7ecpj1uhgvnl346mfisfouopu0 if you can; I was looking to see if we could call you to bridge you in, but hangouts have hidden the button again | 14:07 |
| apw | xnox, is there any reason mako cannot use v4.6 as well if that is what is upstream | 14:10 |
| apw | xnox, we probabally only use that because v4.8 didn't work, and v4.7 did | 14:10 |
| cjwatson | There's already a 4.7 cross stack in the archive, so no reason to take that backward | 14:11 |
| apw | ok | 14:11 |
| cjwatson | gcc-4.7-arm-linux-gnueabihf - GNU C compiler | 14:11 |
| asac | do we know why they kept going with 4.6 on kernels? | 14:12 |
| asac | (dont need to address in hangout, just question for channel) | 14:12 |
| xnox | asac: e.g. goldfish gives kernel panic before it completes boot, when compiled with 4.7 or 4.8. | 14:12 |
| ogra_ | i think maguro too | 14:13 |
| asac | right. but i am sure google could have fixed that easily if there were no other reasons for staying on 4.6 | 14:13 |
| apw | slangasek, can you add a WI for me to make that switch where needed | 14:13 |
| xnox | at the moment: all nexus kernels use 4.6, mako uses 4.7. | 14:13 |
| xnox | apw: done. | 14:13 |
| asac | e.g. i believe there might be good reasons... in particular if they use 4.7 for the userspace | 14:13 |
| slangasek | apw: which switch? to libiberty | 14:13 |
| asac | xnox: do they use 4.7 in userspace? or even 4.4? | 14:13 |
| ogra_ | asac, 4.6 | 14:14 |
| xnox | asac: haven't checked recently, I believe there was a newer toolchain for kitkat, in user-space only. | 14:14 |
| xnox | asac: pre-kitkat is 4.6 | 14:14 |
| cjwatson | doko: (repeating from the hangout) binutils-dev already ships libiberty.a, so I don't quite get how it's an extra maintenance burden to just ship that as a separate binary package instead rather than duplicating the source - I guess I'm missing something? | 14:14 |
| asac | cjwatson: slangasek: talking about cross compiling kernels... any thoughts about allowing to cross compile kernels in PPAs? | 14:14 |
| ogra_ | asac, for what ? to save 20min ? | 14:15 |
| lool | why dont I get a live stream of this session | 14:15 |
| cjwatson | Cross-PPA support is interesting - the trick is (maybe) limiting it to only things that would actually work so that people don't get a profoundly disappointing experience | 14:15 |
| asac | right | 14:15 |
| ogra_ | lool, i do | 14:15 |
| lool | odd | 14:15 |
| cjwatson | My thoughts on this to date have been that it's better to focus on expanding the scope of things that we can cross-build so that it's less disappointing | 14:15 |
| lool | maybe I have too many streams open | 14:16 |
| doko | is there a way to turn off video in hangouts? | 14:16 |
| cjwatson | yes, there's a camera icon at the top that you can click | 14:16 |
| ogra_ | doko, click the camera icon | 14:16 |
| cjwatson | or do you mean everyone else's video? | 14:16 |
| doko | the latter | 14:16 |
| pitti | turn bandwith usage down | 14:16 |
| ogra_ | yeah | 14:16 |
| asac | lool: your computer doesnt like anything related to video streams... no hangouts, no yuoutube :) | 14:16 |
| pitti | in the "signal strenght" like slider | 14:16 |
| asac | etc. | 14:16 |
| ogra_ | cjwatson, cant highbank do proper virtualization ? i thought it could ... i would rather see all PPAs get faster than having a list of püackages that can cross build in a PPA | 14:17 |
| lool | asac: :-) actually it was due to too many streams open (was trying to follow two other sessions) | 14:21 |
| * asac wonders how lool can listen to multiple streams | 14:21 | |
| asac | i can imagine two ... one for each ear | 14:21 |
| asac | everything else must also be hard for you to process | 14:21 |
| asac | hehe | 14:21 |
| ogra_ | asac, 5:1 dolby surround ... | 14:22 |
| ogra_ | 6 channels ;) | 14:22 |
| cjwatson | ogra_: I don't think highbank can, I think we're waiting for next-gen (A57 or similar) | 14:22 |
| ogra_ | ah, ok | 14:22 |
| ogra_ | i still think we should wait | 14:22 |
| ogra_ | instead of having to maintain an artificially made up list | 14:22 |
| lool | asac: mute everything and listen i n2 minutes chunks :-) | 14:23 |
| rsalveti | xnox: I believe kitkat should be using 4.7/4.8 | 14:23 |
| cjwatson | I indeed don't think that a whitelist (or even blacklist) is a scaleable approach | 14:23 |
| rsalveti | but the kernel is still using that very old toolchain | 14:23 |
| ogra_ | rsalveti, even the N5 one ? | 14:24 |
| rsalveti | ogra_: sorry, was thinking about the goldfish target (the one requiring 4.6) | 14:27 |
| ogra_ | ah, good | 14:27 |
| ogra_ | would be odd if hammerhead still used such an old kernel | 14:27 |
| pmcgowan | sounds good | 14:32 |
| mzanetti | I think app development would be mostly qmake | 14:36 |
| apw | did we just lose the feed, or si that me | 14:36 |
| mzanetti | apw: works here | 14:36 |
| mardy | and QBS! :-) | 14:37 |
| sergiusens | shouldn't the sdk should default to cmake for ubutnu touch projects? | 14:37 |
| mzanetti | thing is, qtcreator generates everything qmake for you. cmake is completely manually | 14:37 |
| cjwatson | qtcreator's under our control, at least partially | 14:38 |
| apw | firefox crashage, yay ... | 14:38 |
| mzanetti | cjwatson: well, we could extend qtcreator to properly support cmake, which sounds a lot to me tbh | 14:38 |
| mzanetti | fine with me personally. but it's more complex for app developers. | 14:39 |
| cjwatson | It might be more complex for the SDK team | 14:39 |
| slangasek | right | 14:40 |
| cjwatson | It should surely be invisible to app developers | 14:40 |
| slangasek | the SDK should DTRT | 14:40 |
| mardy | for app development QBS is easier, and it's probably going to be the build system better supported by QtCreator in the long term | 14:40 |
| cjwatson | (Unless they poke around at their build system) | 14:40 |
| mzanetti | cjwatson: no. it's never completely visible to the developer. | 14:40 |
| cjwatson | Is qmake == QBS? | 14:40 |
| mzanetti | err. completely invisible | 14:40 |
| mzanetti | QBS == QMake Build System | 14:40 |
| mzanetti | the new thing to come soonish | 14:40 |
| mardy | cjwatson: no, it's a new stuff, with a JSON/QML-like syntax | 14:40 |
| mzanetti | err.. QML Build system | 14:41 |
| cjwatson | Well, the reality is that right now we know how to make cmake support cross-building and we know that there are significant difficulties with qmake | 14:41 |
| cjwatson | Long-term I'd like to have all build systems cross-build-capable, but there's the matter of which we can do first | 14:41 |
| Saviq | https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTBUG-29987 | 14:41 |
| mardy | cjwatson: makes sense | 14:41 |
| cjwatson | (And upstream cross-build-capability isn't necessarily the same as it working properly for Ubuntu - non-multiarch cross-building can be significantly different if done badly) | 14:42 |
| dholbach | (qt4) and checkbox I think, but AFAIK that's being rewritten | 14:45 |
| Saviq | qbs == Qt Build Suite apparently | 14:46 |
| Saviq | http://qt-project.org/doc/qbs-1.1/index.html | 14:46 |
| mardy | cjwatson: but not all the stack is built with cmake | 14:49 |
| lool | cjwatson: and similarly we should start by cross-compiling the clicks that we include I guess | 14:49 |
| cjwatson | mardy: not all the stack is built with any one system :-) | 14:49 |
| cjwatson | mardy: so yes, I expect that fixing the whole stack will involve fixing multiple build systems | 14:50 |
| cjwatson | lool: perhaps, yeah | 14:50 |
| mardy | cjwatson: yep :-) | 14:50 |
| lool | sergiusens: ^ FYI on cross-compilation topic, we're thinking of testing/dogfooding the cross-compilation story with the builds of the preinstalled click | 14:50 |
| lool | s | 14:50 |
| cjwatson | which of those are arch-dep right now? | 14:51 |
| lool | at the moment we pull some prebuilt files from .debs | 14:51 |
| lool | so the actual builds are not arch-specific, except for the armhf debs they download | 14:51 |
| mzanetti | o/ | 14:52 |
| sergiusens | cjwatson, lool notes-app is the only one building that way | 14:52 |
| sergiusens | it's cmake based | 14:52 |
| lool | great | 14:52 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-core-2 to: Track: Core | Upstart Roadmap for 14.04 LTS release | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21977/core-1311-upstart-roadmap/ | ||
| slangasek | https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpj036tlifqsdqh2tcf89970 | 15:04 |
| slangasek | jodh: ^^ | 15:05 |
| stgraber | xnox: coming? | 15:08 |
| zyga | live | 15:09 |
| * slangasek waves | 15:09 | |
| zyga | jodh: what are the small projects? | 15:09 |
| * xnox o/ | 15:10 | |
| slangasek | https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpj036tlifqsdqh2tcf89970 | 15:10 |
| slangasek | I'm gonna keep repeating that until people join ;) | 15:10 |
| zyga | slangasek: topic it | 15:11 |
| zyga | what is the goal of using cgroups in upstart? | 15:11 |
| xnox | zyga: resource control. | 15:12 |
| slangasek | zyga: just like we support ulimits / chroot primitives, we should support cgroups | 15:13 |
| * zyga needs to learn more about cgroups | 15:14 | |
| apw | why can we not move the process to the cgroups after, i thought you could shift runnign things | 15:16 |
| apw | and if we have upstart running we have enough disk to make the cgroup mamanger startable directly rather than via a job | 15:16 |
| slangasek | apw: what do you mean, "directly"? | 15:18 |
| apw | slangasek, fork/exec it directly before parsing jobs | 15:18 |
| slangasek | hmm | 15:19 |
| apw | so it is part of upstart, but not killing upstart if it explodes | 15:19 |
| zyga | there is one more case to consider, what it there are no cgroups at all (or they are disabled for any reason) | 15:20 |
| zyga | the way cgroups are tied to jobs starting needs to address that | 15:20 |
| apw | yeah what if the kernel has no cgroup support ... | 15:20 |
| apw | slangasek, ^^ | 15:20 |
| zyga | but I agree that cgroup helper should be special so that state is consistent | 15:20 |
| zyga | and that there are no arbitrary periods of time after a jobi started before its cgroup profile is applied | 15:21 |
| zyga | s/i / is / | 15:21 |
| zyga | time bridge would be fantastic | 15:22 |
| zyga | "start 10 minutes after system-booted" | 15:23 |
| zyga | system-booted is just a job name | 15:23 |
| marrusl | killing stuck jobs. is that part of "refining ptrace handling" ? | 15:25 |
| slangasek | zyga: "arbitrary periods of time" - well, the only way to do that is to delay the boot until the cgroup manager is started | 15:25 |
| slangasek | marrusl: yes | 15:25 |
| marrusl | I am so happy. | 15:25 |
| zyga | slangasek: indeed | 15:26 |
| zyga | slangasek: my point is that that arbitrary period feels bad from a design perspective | 15:26 |
| gQuigs | and it would actually fix a bug that we don't know when to kill dbus which the X app exits over ssh | 15:26 |
| gQuigs | this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dbus/+bug/592434 | 15:28 |
| udsbotu | Launchpad bug 592434 in dbus (Ubuntu) "ssh -X user@machine hangs when using exit to terminate" [Low,Triaged] | 15:28 |
| gQuigs | re: track user SSH sessions ^ | 15:28 |
| zyga | slangasek: perhaps the alternative is to have a stanza that controls this | 15:28 |
| zyga | slangasek: so for most jobs, that would be immediate, and blocking | 15:28 |
| zyga | slangasek: but for certain early jobs we can relax that to 'when possible' and perhaps send some signal to communicate the fact (or tie that requirement to SIGSTOP support) | 15:29 |
| zyga | slangasek: like startup-SIGSTOP-cgroups-SIGCONT | 15:29 |
| zyga | ^^ :D | 15:29 |
| zyga | socket bridge is not optional | 15:30 |
| zyga | cgropus can or can not be available and the job should not differ | 15:30 |
| * zyga might join the session but doesn't feel like a system level engineer to speak up really | 15:31 | |
| zyga | jodh, slangasek, stgraber: ^^ | 15:33 |
| slangasek | zyga: please join ;) | 15:33 |
| beidl | it has to be special cased because it provides the infrastructure for jobs | 15:36 |
| apw | slangasek, i think i liked your statement there "it backs a stanza implementation" | 15:36 |
| apw | "start on using_stanza_cgroups" | 15:37 |
| apw | xnox, i think you want upstrart syntax for that different words for optional and not | 15:39 |
| apw | cgroup <stuff> | 15:39 |
| apw | cgroup optional <stuff> | 15:39 |
| mdeslaur | it's not something we need, it's something we'd be interested in looking at if it was available | 15:50 |
| gQuigs | why ever depend on having swap? | 15:53 |
| apw | jodh, could you do something like hte kernel does, and have the cgroup stanza actually start the job, like a modprobe for a protocol family in the kernel | 15:58 |
| apw | jodh, limits, can there not be a wrapper which applies those and used as an exec script prefix ? | 15:59 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-core-2 to: Track: Core | Secure Boot work for 14.04 | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21978/core-1311-secure-boot/ | ||
| roadmr | oh that's today! yay | 16:02 |
| cjwatson | Hangout URL? | 16:05 |
| cjwatson | (Who's running the video? slangasek I assume) | 16:05 |
| slangasek | https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpj2k5dn4bjr053d5ehn1lpo | 16:06 |
| slangasek | cjwatson: ^^ | 16:06 |
| apw | do we have a stream yet ? | 16:10 |
| slangasek | yes | 16:10 |
| rtg | not that we can see | 16:10 |
| slangasek | hmm | 16:10 |
| apw | white space for me | 16:10 |
| slangasek | checking | 16:11 |
| slangasek | oops, got the URLs backwards :P | 16:11 |
| slangasek | fixed | 16:11 |
| apw | slangasek, have it now | 16:12 |
| slangasek | also, why are you people not joining the hangout ;) | 16:12 |
| apw | is there any kernel work :) | 16:12 |
| rtg | haven't combed my hair yet | 16:12 |
| * apw has no hair | 16:12 | |
| cjwatson | that's what video-off is for | 16:12 |
| apw | :) | 16:12 |
| cjwatson | (actually I just don't want to deal with bw awfulness) | 16:12 |
| slangasek | apw: do you want there to be? | 16:12 |
| apw | slangasek, i normally listen till it sounds like one needs kernel input | 16:13 |
| josepht | lower thirds please | 16:13 |
| apw | "sitting in the second row" | 16:13 |
| smoser | slangasek, link? | 16:38 |
| apw | slangasek, often to do with clocks yes | 16:55 |
| slangasek | hum | 16:55 |
| apw | slangasek, i don't thnk it was ubiquitus or anything | 16:55 |
| rtg | slangasek, yeah, that'll get important pretty quick | 16:55 |
| apw | stgraber, we will be interested in those, get us the bug #'s | 16:56 |
| stgraber | Nov 12 12:58:48 castiana kernel: [213981.764426] Request for unknown module key 'Magrathea: Glacier signing key: f440a253eb498df923d438caa09b3b5d99308405' err -11 | 16:56 |
| apw | slangasek, keys have valid date ranges on them, a bad system clock can break the key load | 16:56 |
| rtg | slangasek, certificate authority date is related to the clock (I think) | 16:56 |
| slangasek | apw: hmm; so I don't think that was the cause for me | 16:57 |
| slangasek | [ 2.523405] video: module verification failed: signature and/or required key missing - tainting kernel | 16:57 |
| slangasek | that's here on the most recent boot, and my system clock isn't dodgy | 16:58 |
| apw | slangasek, hmmm, yeah, i've added a WI to investigate them, if you could file a bug on that and get me the number, stgraber also | 16:58 |
| apw | slangasek, i can only assume it is an ordering issue, we boot too quick or something helpful | 16:59 |
| rtg | apw, there are plenty of bugs mentioning this problem. maybe jsalisbury would know one . | 16:59 |
| stgraber | slangasek: ah yeah, I see that one too | 16:59 |
| apw | rtg, good idea, will engage him | 16:59 |
| stgraber | slangasek: I'll file a bug | 16:59 |
| slangasek | stgraber: ta | 17:00 |
| * apw bets you both use somethign which gets graphics into your initrd | 17:00 | |
| stgraber | we both use cryptsetup | 17:00 |
| apw | that ... see | 17:00 |
| apw | i bet that is why i don't see it | 17:00 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-core-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/core-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/20/%23ubuntu-uds-core-2.html | ||
| slangasek | ok | 17:01 |
| stgraber | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1253155 | 17:07 |
| udsbotu | Launchpad bug 1253155 in linux (Ubuntu) "Failure to validate module signature at boot time" [Undecided,New] | 17:07 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-core-2 to: Track: Core | Foundations for app developer workflow | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/21989/core-1311-foundations-for-app-developer-workflow/ | ||
| dholbach | xnox, I'm leading another session at the same time :-/ | 17:56 |
| dholbach | err, slangasek: ^ | 17:56 |
| slangasek | dholbach: ok. Do you need this rescheduled? | 17:57 |
| slangasek | I just sent the hangout invite to everyone subscribed to the session | 17:57 |
| dholbach | no, I don't think I need to be there, I'll watch the video later on | 17:57 |
| slangasek | ok, cool | 17:58 |
| karni | slangasek: Thanks for the invite Steve. For this session I'll be mostly a listener. | 17:59 |
| cjwatson | slangasek: I didn't get it AFAICS | 18:03 |
| slangasek | https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpje7f3dnktlourn64tm45kg | 18:03 |
| cjwatson | oh, maybe on my phone, which is no use to me :) | 18:03 |
| slangasek | cjwatson: I guess I sent it to the wrong you, sorry :) | 18:03 |
| slangasek | should've gone to the canonical-you | 18:03 |
| cjwatson | ok - I'll be there in a sec, I'm just finishing updating my local emulator with some rapid use of 3G | 18:03 |
| cjwatson | :-) | 18:03 |
| zyga | hi | 18:05 |
| * rsalveti waves | 18:05 | |
| karni | o/ | 18:05 |
| * ogra_ shores | 18:06 | |
| ogra_ | video ! | 18:09 |
| karni | You're live | 18:09 |
| rickspencer3 | o/ | 18:09 |
| xnox | and it's live! | 18:09 |
| ogra_ | oh, and colin made his hair ... (he switched the cam on) | 18:09 |
| asac | :) | 18:10 |
| karni | the whole browser, yes | 18:10 |
| xnox | yes. | 18:10 |
| asac | yes | 18:10 |
| xnox | cjwatson: still browser. | 18:11 |
| lool | cjwatson: works well | 18:11 |
| zyga | cjwatson: it's hard to share that one | 18:11 |
| zyga | orks | 18:11 |
| zyga | works | 18:11 |
| xnox | cjwatson: awesome. | 18:11 |
| karni | good | 18:11 |
| lool | I see the browser | 18:11 |
| lool | I see my browser window with cjwatson inside | 18:11 |
| slangasek | it's working now - we sorted it out on the hangout rather than waiting for the IRC round-trip :) | 18:11 |
| slangasek | lool: you must be desynced | 18:12 |
| lool | I am, but I was trying to make a silly joke too | 18:12 |
| lool | it's all good now :-) | 18:12 |
| karni | hehe | 18:12 |
| rsalveti | and graphics should be working with latest emulator :D | 18:12 |
| lool | hehe | 18:12 |
| karni | rsalveti: \o/ | 18:13 |
| lool | rsalveti: is that with passthrough? | 18:13 |
| slangasek | yes | 18:13 |
| rsalveti | lool: yes, because we need opengles v2 | 18:14 |
| ogra_ | we do !! | 18:14 |
| zyga | is the child one can hear behind the scenes coming from the current speaker? | 18:20 |
| ogra_ | yes | 18:20 |
| zyga | ah, ok | 18:20 |
| karni | yes, shell | 18:21 |
| zyga | yes | 18:21 |
| ogra_ | yes | 18:21 |
| zyga | but very small | 18:21 |
| zyga | too small to be readable | 18:21 |
| xnox | cjwatson: yes, we do, but it's small font =)))) | 18:21 |
| zyga | or un-maximize the window | 18:21 |
| rsalveti | still small? | 18:21 |
| karni | much better | 18:21 |
| rsalveti | don't know if it's the delay | 18:22 |
| xnox | cjwatson: awesome. | 18:22 |
| ogra_ | yeah | 18:22 |
| zyga | cjwatson: google gives you roughly the same texture for any size of your screen | 18:22 |
| rsalveti | there's a huge delay | 18:22 |
| zyga | cool demo! | 18:24 |
| xnox | fingers crossed. | 18:25 |
| ogra_ | cjwatson, it takes 10min | 18:25 |
| sergiusens | just be patient! | 18:25 |
| xnox | cjwatson: very slow emulated processor. | 18:26 |
| ogra_ | 400MHz ... 512M | 18:26 |
| ogra_ | single core | 18:26 |
| zyga | ogra_: what is that emulated with? qemu? | 18:26 |
| ogra_ | yep | 18:26 |
| ogra_ | a very old version | 18:26 |
| zyga | ogra_: graphics patches holding it back? | 18:27 |
| ogra_ | well, its heavily patched for goldfish | 18:27 |
| zyga | I see | 18:27 |
| ogra_ | not just graphics | 18:27 |
| zyga | ah, I see | 18:28 |
| * zyga mutters something about tizen / bada emulator ;) | 18:28 | |
| zyga | can we run the emulator with a prebuilt image | 18:29 |
| zyga | that we can download from somewhere? | 18:29 |
| zyga | I tried it today in trusty but the package was broken | 18:29 |
| janimo | zyga, it worked for me in trusty today | 18:29 |
| sergiusens | if it confuses people, just don't launch with -shell | 18:29 |
| janimo | zyga, I used the build image script as documented | 18:29 |
| zyga | janimo: the script for building the image is broken | 18:29 |
| ogra_ | worked fine for me | 18:30 |
| zyga | janimo: it references stuff that's not in the package | 18:30 |
| zyga | I was following the wiki basically | 18:30 |
| sergiusens | zyga, you might of downloaded an older wrong package | 18:30 |
| zyga | I can take it offline if you want to know what I did | 18:30 |
| ogra_ | zyga, then you got the broken package | 18:30 |
| sergiusens | zyga, you need -0ubuntu2 | 18:30 |
| janimo | zyga, I was lucky I guess :) I did not check what it actually does, but it made a working sd.img | 18:30 |
| zyga | sergiusens: nope, never installed that before | 18:30 |
| ogra_ | which also breaks your host | 18:30 |
| lool | I was asking on teh wrong chanel blah | 18:30 |
| lool | QUESTION: do we need separate chroots for native builds and cross-builds due to multiarch deps still? | 18:30 |
| ogra_ | (if it is amd64) | 18:30 |
| lool | I mean if I'm on trusty/amd64 and I want to a) cross-build to saucy/armhf and b) build for saucy/amd64, can I use a single chroot? | 18:30 |
| zyga | oh | 18:30 |
| * zyga checks | 18:30 | |
| ogra_ | lool, cjwatson cant see his IRC | 18:30 |
| zyga | darn | 18:30 |
| xnox | slangasek: ^ relay question to cjwatson from lool | 18:30 |
| zyga | yeah I have 2 | 18:30 |
| zyga | er | 18:30 |
| zyga | 1 | 18:30 |
| ogra_ | probably someone can forward the question to the hangout | 18:30 |
| zyga | can I just upgrade now? I recall scary recovery instructions | 18:31 |
| rsalveti | zyga: yes, latest should be safe | 18:31 |
| zyga | ok | 18:31 |
| ogra_ | zyga, just never ever remove libc6-amd64 | 18:31 |
| sergiusens | cjwatson, rsalveti check if it's processing a crash | 18:31 |
| * zyga reboots rarely so proably breaks-on-boot would be a bad thing to do now | 18:31 | |
| ogra_ | (which the broken package pulled in) | 18:31 |
| zyga | ogra_: heh, ok :) | 18:31 |
| zyga | ogra_: oh | 18:32 |
| rsalveti | sergiusens: I disabled whoopsie for now | 18:32 |
| zyga | ogra_: -amd64 vs :amd64? | 18:32 |
| ogra_ | zyga, right | 18:32 |
| sergiusens | rsalveti, yay :-) | 18:32 |
| ogra_ | rsalveti, evil you ! how are we getting all these crach reports now | 18:32 |
| zyga | ogra_: is there a way to safely get rid of that somehow? | 18:32 |
| ogra_ | zyga, once the bug in libc is fixed perhaps | 18:32 |
| ogra_ | for now, just dont touch it | 18:33 |
| slangasek | zyga: to fix it, just boot with break=bottom, and copy your ld.so/libc back from the initramfs to the rootfs ;P | 18:33 |
| slangasek | piece of cake | 18:33 |
| rsalveti | ogra_: well, otherwise you're basically unable to use it | 18:33 |
| ogra_ | lol | 18:33 |
| cjwatson | zyga: sorry, my children can be a bit noisy at times indeed ... | 18:33 |
| ogra_ | rsalveti, details :P | 18:33 |
| lool | cjwatson: ok, thanks | 18:33 |
| slangasek | (this happened to me a few weeks ago while sprinting, but sadly I did not link this in any way to the emulator package) | 18:33 |
| zyga | thanks! | 18:33 |
| lool | cjwatson: it was no strong reason except limiting the number of chroots people needed (space, ability to download them etc.) | 18:34 |
| lool | time to update them etc. | 18:34 |
| * cjwatson nods | 18:34 | |
| lool | I feel the pressure for fixing the content-hub hook is increasing | 18:35 |
| zyga | thanks, interesting demo | 18:35 |
| zyga | cjwatson: could you record a video with start-to-end (till it boots) and publish that sometime later? I would think many people would be interested | 18:35 |
| sergiusens | cjwatson, do you have a link to the chroot setup/building? I might have missed it if you did mention it | 18:36 |
| xnox | cjwatson: don't hit ctrl-c | 18:36 |
| xnox | =) | 18:36 |
| ogra_ | lol | 18:36 |
| xnox | cjwatson: you can open adb shell | 18:36 |
| zyga | cool, sounds good for me | 18:37 |
| cjwatson | click chroot -aarmhf create (from lp:click at present, soon from the click-dev package) | 18:37 |
| zyga | cjwatson: don't disregard the tutorial nature of a complete video though | 18:37 |
| cjwatson | zyga: agreed | 18:37 |
| cjwatson | would need a bit more prep than this got :-) | 18:37 |
| zyga | :-) | 18:37 |
| sergiusens | great | 18:38 |
| cjwatson | thanks all | 18:39 |
| cjwatson | sorry for the not-quite-fully-in-place demo, but I hope you'll agree it was close :-) | 18:40 |
| karni | thanks all! | 18:40 |
| sergiusens | thanks | 18:40 |
| karni | cjwatson: it was close! :) | 18:40 |
| cjwatson | and thanks as ever to rsalveti for tireless work on the emulator | 18:40 |
| ogra_ | ++ | 18:40 |
| rsalveti | still a lot to do, but we're getting there :-) | 18:40 |
| cjwatson | and to xnox | 18:40 |
| ogra_ | ++ too | 18:40 |
| karni | yes we are! | 18:40 |
| ogra_ | :) | 18:40 |
| ogra_ | it is intresting though, for me the emulator worked on first try and a lot sooner than yours | 18:41 |
| * cjwatson tries ctrl-c and re-running | 18:41 | |
| cjwatson | oh, I forgot one thing, instructions on the emulator | 18:41 |
| * ogra_ thinks the graphics HW you use has also some impact | 18:41 | |
| cjwatson | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Emulator | 18:41 |
| cjwatson | just make sure to use the very latest version in trusty | 18:42 |
| cjwatson | one thing this really highlights is the need to rewrite click in C, as all that Python is slow on first boot :-/ | 18:43 |
| ogra_ | yeah | 18:44 |
| cjwatson | ha! unity is up now | 18:44 |
| ogra_ | and there is whoopsie (which is currently disabled) and apparmor creating profiles on first nboot | 18:44 |
| rsalveti | \o/ | 18:44 |
| ogra_ | yay | 18:44 |
| cjwatson | I should have ctrl-ced during the presentation :-) | 18:44 |
| karni | cjwatson: :D | 18:45 |
| ogra_ | ureadahead too ... we might want to disable that | 18:45 |
| cjwatson | or fix ... cf earlier discussions | 18:45 |
| cjwatson | http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/tmp/emulator-yay.png | 18:47 |
| cjwatson | (sorry, import -window root is a bit odd with multi-monitor) | 18:47 |
| rsalveti | yay | 18:47 |
| sergiusens | cjwatson, write it in go :-) | 18:48 |
| sergiusens | that's just a pun ;-) | 18:48 |
| karni | cjwatson: thanks for the screenshot! | 18:51 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-core-2 to: Track: Core | Planning the hardware enablement strategy for 14.04 LTS | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22029/core-1311-hwe-plans/ | ||
| slangasek | https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpi5mshd3mujd9pk5te8c50s | 19:01 |
| slangasek | https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpi5mshd3mujd9pk5te8c50s | 19:03 |
| slangasek | more people please join the hangout, this should be a discussion | 19:04 |
| slangasek | don't leave me all alone in here with the kernel guys | 19:04 |
| diwic | slangasek, ok, I'll try :-) | 19:05 |
| tjaalton | i'm thinking about it | 19:06 |
| tjaalton | but my wife has the laptop now :P | 19:06 |
| tjaalton | yup | 19:07 |
| tjaalton | maarten didn't reply to my pings | 19:08 |
| tjaalton | ok got the laptop, will take a while to set things up.. | 19:10 |
| xnox | ogasawara: well at the moment upgrade fails, so one will fail to upgrade from -lts-saucy to quantal. | 19:11 |
| xnox | infinity: ^ | 19:11 |
| xnox | are upgrades ever tested from all enablements to trusty? | 19:12 |
| xnox | including -lts-trusty -> trusty | 19:12 |
| slangasek | currently, none are tested | 19:13 |
| infinity | xnox: No, but we need to. | 19:14 |
| arges | do we test LTS dkms packages against all hwe-kernels? | 19:14 |
| slangasek | arges: are there any dkms packages that are in main? | 19:14 |
| ogasawara | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/1244438 | 19:14 |
| udsbotu | Launchpad bug 1244438 in linux (Ubuntu) "EOL notification system required for HWE kernels in LTSs" [Medium,Triaged] - Assigned to Ubuntu Kernel Team (ubuntu-kernel-team) | 19:15 |
| geofft | at some point I'd like to ask about OpenAFS, which is in universe and broke with the most recent HWE kernel | 19:15 |
| apw | geofft, what broke with it ? did it fail to install or fail to work | 19:16 |
| arges | slangasek: or maybe more general do we have a good way for dkms packages to support multiple kernels? Is it just #ifdef'ing properly or doing things like this: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+package/openvswitch-datapath-lts-raring-dkms | 19:16 |
| geofft | apw: The DKMS modules failed to compile, and we're not really sure about the process for getting fixes | 19:17 |
| apw | geofft, cirtainly filing a bug, if that is a universe package it is then best efforts | 19:17 |
| marrusl | I had a large customer opt-in to HWE kernels accidentally because when they moved forward with the project they grabbed "the latest iso" | 19:18 |
| marrusl | they were ok with it in the end, but they weren't clearly aware of what they were doing. | 19:18 |
| apw | marrusl, messaging could be better yes | 19:18 |
| slangasek | geofft: it's a suitable target for SRU | 19:18 |
| xnox | marrusl: 12.04.0 images are out there. the messaging on the ubuntu.com website is clear about hardware and non-hardware ennablement stacks. | 19:18 |
| geofft | apw, slangasek: LP #1206387 | 19:18 |
| udsbotu | Launchpad bug 1206387 in openafs (Ubuntu Precise) "openafs-modules-dkms 1.6.1-1+ubuntu0.2: module FTBFS on 3.8.0" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1206387 | 19:18 |
| slangasek | geofft: we would welcome community SRUs for such issues, but Canonical won't own the update of those packages as part of the HWE stack | 19:19 |
| geofft | I think one thing is we're not sure if we did the SRU process right -- who should be subscribed to these things, what do we need to do to push it forward? | 19:19 |
| marrusl | hey I understand, but it's still very confusing to end users. this is a very large corp that we would have assumed "knew better" but they didn't. | 19:19 |
| slangasek | effectively, you need to get a package uploaded to the queue | 19:19 |
| geofft | Also it would be _wonderful_ if this didn't break on the day of the upload of a new point release | 19:19 |
| slangasek | sponsored or otherwise | 19:20 |
| geofft | because we have users who will grab the new ISO, install, and then complain at us :-( | 19:20 |
| bjf | xnox, i don't know how you can claim that the messaging is clear .. http://www.ubuntu.com/download/server | 19:20 |
| geofft | and downgrading their enablement stack is a pain. | 19:20 |
| xnox | well on the bottom of "http://www.ubuntu.com/download/alternative-downloads" there mentioned about downloading image with "Precise stack" but that's not very clean =/ | 19:21 |
| xnox | bjf: i don't think there was any on server pages. | 19:21 |
| xnox | slangasek: infinity: in the pool/*.deb | 19:21 |
| xnox | ? | 19:22 |
| bjf | xnox, so, you are assuming people know to go to the alternative downloads page and even on that page it is not clear | 19:22 |
| xnox | bjf: true. i somehow thought it was better explained, but i can't find it any more. | 19:23 |
| bjf | xnox, yes, you can go to "past releases and other flavours" | 19:23 |
| xnox | bjf: i think we need more explanation text right next to "download" button. | 19:23 |
| xnox | ... and on cdimage.u.c | 19:24 |
| bjf | xnox, i agree with that | 19:24 |
| xnox | .. | 19:24 |
| xnox | cannot hear bryan. | 19:24 |
| apw | he was asking if we will upgrade people at the end of life for the pre-trusty lts- | 19:25 |
| apw | backport stacks, and that was a no, we would message them | 19:25 |
| xnox | thanks. | 19:25 |
| marrusl | I have a feeling this won't be a popular idea... but I have multiple customers that would LOVE to see the HWE stack extended to networking. specifically: network-manager, modemmanager, wpasupplicant, and usb-modeswitch. | 19:29 |
| marrusl | (I have a feeling that NM deps will make this a big pain) | 19:30 |
| diwic | seems nobody wanted to hear about the audio stack perspective, or my mic was muted? | 19:30 |
| slangasek | marrusl: I don't see why we would make that part of the HWE stack, instead of simple standalone SRUs that nobody gets | 19:30 |
| infinity | marrusl: Too late, session over. La la. | 19:30 |
| slangasek | diwic: oh - yes, you were muted! | 19:30 |
| slangasek | diwic: sorry :/ | 19:30 |
| arges | diwic: your mic was muted | 19:30 |
| marrusl | meh | 19:30 |
| slangasek | diwic: wondered why you were so quiet the whole time... :) | 19:31 |
| diwic | anyway; so for PulseAudio we decided not to try to do enablement stack stuff | 19:31 |
| infinity | slangasek: s/that nobody gets/that everybody gets/? | 19:31 |
| slangasek | infinity: yes, the inverse nobody | 19:31 |
| diwic | and I think this has been working well enough to continue that for the next two years | 19:31 |
| slangasek | ok | 19:31 |
| diwic | compared to trying to backport PulseAudio | 19:31 |
| slangasek | so you agree with the "it worked last time, let's keep doing it" | 19:32 |
| marrusl | slangasek, ok interesting. wpa and usbmodeswitch backport cleanly (iirc) to precise, but I gave up on NM (was way over my head) | 19:32 |
| diwic | I've had one or two patches I had to SRU into PulseAudio to make it benefit from newer kernels, but that's it | 19:32 |
| infinity | marrusl: Does NM actually provide new hardware support, or just shiny new features? | 19:32 |
| slangasek | marrusl: ah, I think I missed NM in your list. Yeah, I don't think we would take that, in *either* kind of update | 19:32 |
| infinity | marrusl: The point of HWE isn't to backport the world to the LTS. | 19:32 |
| tjaalton | guess I missed the important bits while stealing my laptop :) | 19:32 |
| * slangasek nods | 19:32 | |
| diwic | slangasek, so yes, I think we can continue with "cautious SRUing" for PulseAudio 14.04 too | 19:33 |
| apw | sounds has been pretty good in precise i think, so that sounds like a sane plan | 19:33 |
| marrusl | infinity, in effect it does... mobile broadband cards are poorly standardized and one customer has found (working with upstream) that: | 19:33 |
| infinity | tjaalton: [adconrad] delegate someone in X to do meta packages for X stack if possible | 19:33 |
| marrusl | sometimes they need to make a fix in modemmanager, sometimes it's in NM. | 19:33 |
| infinity | tjaalton: Can I delegate that to you after explaining what it means? :P | 19:33 |
| tjaalton | infinity: yeah I got that part | 19:33 |
| tjaalton | and understand what it means | 19:34 |
| marrusl | in the case of WPA you may be using new network geat/features that work flawlessly on wpa 1.0 (for example) and quite poorly on 0.7.3. | 19:34 |
| infinity | tjaalton: Excellent. tjaalton on launchpad too? | 19:34 |
| tjaalton | yes | 19:34 |
| diwic | and the other point, tjaalton et al, we should probably sit down on our HWE sprint and have a meeting about how this will affect all our pre-installs when their kernels go out of scope. See what we can do if they're running OSP1 and/or OSP2 | 19:34 |
| marrusl | s/geat/gear | 19:34 |
| tjaalton | diwic: migrating machines from stack-to-stack? | 19:35 |
| tjaalton | oh | 19:35 |
| diwic | tjaalton, essentially; everything we've been enabling this year, e g all the Haswell machines, what will happen when the kernel team stops supporting 3.5 | 19:36 |
| gQuigs | xnox: heh.. on another note; did we ever get data to know if we made right call re:64 bitdefault | 19:36 |
| tjaalton | diwic: yeah, falls under the third paragraph of the notes | 19:37 |
| tjaalton | actually | 19:37 |
| xnox | gQuigs: not yet, no. At release day, there was more people downloading 64-bit images. And i'm yet to hear a failure case "64-bit one didn't work on my machine" | 19:37 |
| tjaalton | I remember they should be migrated to the next LTS stack, ie. one that'll be in 12.04.5 | 19:38 |
| tjaalton | so that 12.10 will be maintained three extra monts until this is available | 19:38 |
| tjaalton | rtg: ^ am I right? | 19:38 |
| gQuigs | xnox: yea I haven't seen any complaints either | 19:38 |
| diwic | tjaalton, given the user base I guess that's better than starting to ask questions | 19:39 |
| tjaalton | this was discussed in oakland and/or copenhagen | 19:39 |
| slangasek | geofft: so https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openafs/+bug/1206387 does not have the ubuntu-sponsors team subscribed; would you like me to subscribe them? | 19:39 |
| udsbotu | Launchpad bug 1206387 in openafs (Ubuntu Precise) "openafs-modules-dkms 1.6.1-1+ubuntu0.2: module FTBFS on 3.8.0" [High,Confirmed] | 19:39 |
| infinity | tjaalton: No one will be automatically migrated, but we'll be telling them all about their support status in motd/update-manager/lists/etc. | 19:39 |
| slangasek | geofft: also, can I suggest that you coordinate directly with infinity and/or the kernel team for pre-release testing of the hwe stacks for dkms compatibility? | 19:40 |
| tjaalton | infinity: ok, works for me | 19:40 |
| diwic | infinity, so I typically think that's a bad thing to do for a lot of pre-installs, but the question if the regression risk of moving along will be a worse thing | 19:40 |
| geofft | slangasek: if that's the next step, yes please! I didn't file this bug but I _thought_ we'd followed the SRU wiki page; if we missed a step, sure and apologies | 19:41 |
| infinity | diwic: I think it's a bad thing too, as does the kernel team, but we've pretty much been told we can't forcefully upgrade people. | 19:41 |
| gQuigs | wait how much time will people have to upgrade from a HWE kernel? | 19:41 |
| bjf | tjaalton, yes we will support the kernels until 14.04.1 | 19:41 |
| tjaalton | right this can't be just a thing baked in update-manager | 19:41 |
| diwic | infinity, just FTR, told by who? | 19:41 |
| infinity | ogasawara: ^ | 19:41 |
| tjaalton | there needs to be some apt-get'ty way to migrate | 19:41 |
| infinity | ogasawara: Who told us we can't force people to migrate? | 19:41 |
| bjf | infinity, mark | 19:42 |
| tjaalton | bjf: good | 19:42 |
| infinity | tjaalton: The apt-gety way to migrate is simple. | 19:42 |
| ogasawara | infinity: sabdfl | 19:42 |
| tjaalton | infinity: ok then | 19:42 |
| diwic | ok | 19:42 |
| geofft | slangasek: hm, or, is that the upload lfaraone already did? | 19:42 |
| diwic | question is if sabdfl's statement applies to preinstalls too, and the reasoning behind it | 19:42 |
| slangasek | geofft: oh, yes, it's in the queue as of 44 hours ago ;) | 19:43 |
| diwic | tjaalton, but anyway I'll write to YK and tell him to have this as a topic during the hwe sprint | 19:43 |
| infinity | diwic: I don't see why we'd treat preinstalls as unique snowflakes compared to end-user installs. | 19:43 |
| infinity | diwic: The end result is the same if you preinstalled or user-installed with a 3.5/3.8/3.11 kernel, after all. | 19:44 |
| tjaalton | yeah osp1 is 12.04.2+steroids, osp2 will be 12.04.3+viagra.. still the same tooling applies | 19:44 |
| geofft | slangasek: It seems like we didn't get any feedback here, so I'm curious what could have been done to get this bug a response better -- it was ready for action 3 months ago, I think. | 19:45 |
| diwic | tjaalton, osp2 = 12.04.4 based | 19:45 |
| ogasawara | diwic: so I did have follow on conversations w/smagoun and jonm where they voiced they had cases where they would want to automatically roll forward when a stack EOL's, so my team created meta packages which could be installed to do so | 19:45 |
| slangasek | geofft: response from whom? | 19:45 |
| tjaalton | diwic: oh right | 19:45 |
| slangasek | geofft: as I said, Canonical isn't going to own updates for universe dkms packages that break - but we welcome community involvement in vetting those | 19:46 |
| diwic | ogasawara, and so the question is if these are the packages we use in osp1/osp2 ? | 19:46 |
| geofft | I... don't actually know. What would have been the right steps for we-the-community to take after andersk's 2013-08-26 posting of a debdiff? | 19:46 |
| tjaalton | diwic: it's an extra package, the oem is free to install it aiui | 19:46 |
| tjaalton | if they wish auto-migration | 19:46 |
| ogasawara | diwic: I unfortunately don't know. I'm not aware of what's in those osp1/osp2 deliverables | 19:47 |
| geofft | (Partly this is a special case because there was a question of, can we just take the latest upstream point release instead of backporting patches) | 19:47 |
| infinity | geofft: subscribing ubuntu-sponsors (or finding someone to review and upload) would have helped. | 19:47 |
| tjaalton | just a bunch of dkms backports.. | 19:47 |
| diwic | ogasawara, I don't know either, but I know who can figure out at least | 19:47 |
| geofft | slangasek, infinity: Re pre-release testing for dkms in universe, let me see if I can try to find someone current from MIT to have this conversation | 19:51 |
| slangasek | ok | 19:51 |
| geofft | I graduated and don't personally care as much about OpenAFS any more, so I'll try to find someone better-placed to do it, but if not, I guess I'll email infinity + the kernel mailing list? | 19:51 |
| geofft | infinity: wasn't ubuntu-sponsors subscribed right after the debdiff was posted? | 19:52 |
| infinity | geofft: Oh, so it was, according to the bug log. I was just going by what slangasek said above. | 19:53 |
| geofft | I think lfaraone unsubscribed ubuntu-sponsors last week after uploading | 19:54 |
| andersk | Hi guys, I wrote and posted the debdiff in question. | 19:54 |
| geofft | I'd like to know how to make this go better in the future, since this is not the last time OpenAFS will fail to compile on a new kernel. | 19:55 |
| geofft | (should we move to another channel?) | 19:55 |
| andersk | And yeah, I subscribed ubuntu-sponsors, updated the bug description with SRU information, and eventually found and poked lfaraone to make a (still unapproved) upload.If there’s anything else I can do to help, I’d like to know. | 19:56 |
| infinity | Right, this session's officially ended, I'm jumping ship from this channel... | 19:57 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-core-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/core-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/20/%23ubuntu-uds-core-2.html | ||
| === Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk | ||
| === Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha | ||
| === jack is now known as Guest11163 | ||
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