=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-2.html === tvoss_ is now known as tvoss|test === tvoss|test is now known as tvoss === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Track: App Development | Apps Performance | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22079/appdev-1311-sdk-apps-performance/ [13:58] for those who want to join the session: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpjsk16jg1c64ngroaoqte3o [13:59] mhall119, got a hangout link for app performance? [14:00] cgoldberg: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpjsk16jg1c64ngroaoqte3o [14:02] dpm: you're live [14:02] Hi dpm, you're live [14:02] thanks [14:02] http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-appdev-1311-sdk-apps-performance [14:02] hi [14:02] for those who want to join the session: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpjsk16jg1c64ngroaoqte3o [14:03] any app dev around? [14:03] any app developers who'd like to join? [14:03] dpm: I only have questions [14:03] dpm: do I still join the hangout? [14:03] nik90, sure! [14:04] kenvandine, wanna join? [14:04] oSoMoN, ?N :) [14:04] Kaleo, joining [14:05] bfiller, ^^ [14:05] pmcgowan: yup I'll join [14:05] Kaleo, i might jump on in a few [14:05] https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/presentation/d/15Gc9MKTQnhUcXtL9GrBdv8va6o8ZfPy_DelfTspbucs/edit#slide=id.p [14:08] dpm: click on yourself so we see slides [14:08] we see Kaleo while he's talking, not slides [14:08] +1 [14:08] popey, yeah, did it a while ago, sorry [14:08] you'll get it after the delay [14:09] kk === dbarth__ is now known as dbarth [14:13] Kaleo, are the instrumentation aqtc tool's results consistent when running on desktop & phone (they must be for some area but maybe not others), can we use it remotely ? [14:13] QUESTION ^ [14:13] http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5.0/qtquick/qtquick-performance.html [14:16] Kaleo, :) ... yeah but in terms of GPU rendering etc ... [14:16] Kaleo, so can we remotely use the tool? [14:17] alex-abreu, I understood that we can, but we'll ask Kaleo on the live session in a minute [14:17] dpm, great thx [14:18] alex-abreu, I think the other approach is to use a higher bar metric on the faster platform when you measure [14:19] besides rendering time, are there any other internal performance metrics that can be logged to console? [14:19] pmcgowan, yeah *if* the measures stay proportionate relative to one and another when running on the phone which is not a given afaik [14:19] ack [14:22] is it mir or some combination of upstart apparmor etc? [14:22] Nope. I don't agree that it's just mir [14:23] Before mir, app startup was still poor, multi-second sometimes. [14:23] what is the best way to analyze app startup ? [14:23] Prelinking might be an idea too: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Prelink [14:23] just an fyi, if you you've got the choice, have your gl texture sizes in power of two will often help perf [14:24] +1 qmlscene. [14:27] dpm, lets take an action to do the analysis, assign to me or bill? [14:27] pmcgowan, ack [14:28] cgoldberg: you can use benchmark_ in qmltestrunner [14:28] ChrisGagnon, nice.. I'll have to talk to about that [14:29] In 5.0 & 5.1, the profiling env var is QML_RENDERER_TIMING. But in 5.2 onwards, it is QSG_RENDER_TIMING [14:30] ChrisGagnon, got a link to benchmark_ or qmltestrunner in general? [14:30] dpm, btw running in the emulator shows performance issues as well since its much slower under emulation [14:30] looks like the scene graph renderer is going to give us a much improved performance in Qt 5.2: http://blog.qt.digia.com/blog/2013/09/02/new-scene-graph-renderer/ [14:34] The discussion so far has mostly been about app startup and interaction. What about the shell itself? The UI becomes very sluggish once a few apps are open. Are we measuring that? [14:34] popey, I think we know what that is [14:34] something to do with graphics buffers, Kaleo looked into it [14:34] So there's a difference between operation kicking in long (like waiting for a download from the store to start) which should be indicated by a spinner or something, and an operation taking unacceptably long on the UI thread (i.e. you press a button, see it's highlighted, when you lift a finger, it's still highlighted because the operation hooked to that button has not finished). The spinner is responsible of the developer, the latter ... [14:34] ... visual feedback responsibility of the platform/framework to indicate "hey you, developer, you actually can do this better than what you did here". [14:34] ok [14:34] * karni initially posted to wrong channel [14:36] more a bug than a bp [14:36] I meant that showing a spinner for long lasting operation is a responsibility of the developer. While indicating a long lasting operation on the UI thread would be the responsibility of the platform/framework. [14:36] bug 1238684 [14:36] Ubuntu bug 1227739 in unity-mir "duplicate for #1238684 Mir continues to render background application surfaces even when they're not visible" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1227739 [14:37] maybe not, that's old [14:37] Yeah, we need to investigate the slowdown. Not sure what's wrong. [14:37] Yes, you got my question right. [14:37] karni, sorry, I don't know the answer :) [14:38] That's okay. What I mean is that we could try helping with a visual feedback to indicate "you're doing too much on UI thread". [14:38] is there an API for the QtCreator Profiler? I want to launch an app, profile actions, then extract timing data.. automagically [14:38] That'd be pretty significant chunk of work, though, I can imagine. [14:38] alex-abreu, it seems the QML profiler works remotely too [14:38] dpm, ok thx for getting back to me [14:38] i.e. Android whould show ANR (App not responding) dialog after a couple seconds if you're doing too much on the UI thread. [14:38] http://qt-project.org/doc/qtcreator-2.8/creator-debugging-qml.html#setting-up-qml-debugging [14:39] This encourages great focus on never doing more than minimum work on the main thread. [14:40] Oh yeas, I love that. FPS, touches, view outlines, etc [14:40] Detecting hanging application: yes that's something we've in mind [14:40] ack [14:43] reasonably good but need more focus on it, measure and analyze [14:47] QUESTION: Does our QML somehow reuse views in the background for long lists? [14:47] i.e. the views that disappear at the top get reused and appear at the bottom [14:48] karni: what do you mean with views? [14:48] welcome to parenthood Kaleo :) [14:48] t1mp: whatever constitues a QML element showing info. a Label, for instance. or a whole tree of views [14:49] 2 labels, image, button, whatever, bundled in one QML "Item" [14:49] Do we just GC those or re-use them [14:49] The proper fix is for Mir to tell shell when the application has drawn it's first frame - only then can shell take the screenshot away [14:50] karni: ok, got it. thanks [14:50] Aha, so we have view re-use. Great! [14:52] if you pageStack.push("url.of.a.qml") then it is only loaded when the push is called [14:52] components get instantiated when you push them [14:53] Items that are defined inside another loaded Item, are created/loaded before they are pushed [14:55] Thanks for the session guys, I need to drop. [14:56] no action about shell performance? [15:00] cgoldberg: we should add the report the the dashboard [15:00] robotfuel, definitely. === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-2.html [15:00] very good thanks [15:01] good session, thanks! [15:01] thanks :) === oSoMoN_ is now known as oSoMoN [15:23] vthompson, like .pls files? [15:24] vthompson, ah wrong channel lol [15:26] ahayzen, haha [15:26] ahayzen, and yes. But it seems that's not a use case. === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Track: App Development | Startup Splash Screen for apps | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22080/appdev-1311-sdk-appstartupsplash/ [16:05] Kaleo, and everyone else wanting to join: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpj6fmlcg38c0822d3h38e2c [16:07] Kaleo? [16:07] joining us? [16:07] http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-appdev-1311-apps-systemapps-roadmap [16:09] greyback, you wanna join the hangout? [16:09] ok [16:09] hangout for the live discussion: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpj6fmlcg38c0822d3h38e2c [16:10] notes: http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-appdev-1311-sdk-appstartupsplash [16:10] I'm also sdk [16:10] I can join [16:10] I think florian had a conflict with anothe session [16:11] thanks kalikianatoli [16:15] sorry I'm late; now catching up with the discussion :) [16:18] At least some people will want to use a screenshot *of* their app as the splash screen so that it looks like it starts up really fast. That may not be a good idea (it looks like your app has started but is unresponsive), but having guidelines on that might be a good idea [16:19] aquarius, fancy to join us? -> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpj6fmlcg38c0822d3h38e2c [16:20] also, if we're doing multiple form factors, there ought to be a "cascade" defined: that is, define what happens for various splash screens being present. So, if you provide a portrait image and no landscape image, then on a landscape form factor say "we will display your image as big as possible, centred, on a white background" [16:21] an app can't update its own splash image -- the splash image will be stored with the click package, and apps can't write to their own package [16:21] dpm, I'm not sure I'm totally caught up because I missed the first 15 minutes :) [16:21] can join ifyou want me to [16:22] aquarius, here are some notes, but sure, always good seeing and talking to you! [16:22] http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1311-appdev-1311-sdk-appstartupsplash [16:52] I have a stupid question [16:52] there's no way we can just... make app startup be faster? [16:52] dpm, ^^ [16:53] Saviq, ^^ [16:53] aquarius, wrong session, and yes, but then we'll never reach startup time fast enough to not need a splash screen [16:54] aquarius, especially since we don't actually control it [16:54] aquarius: yep, looking into preloading libraries needed, and Mir seems to cause a real startup slowdown too. [16:54] ah, I saw a session about faster startup! I thought that was the OS, not apps :) [16:54] Saviq, good call -- we will always need them, you think. fair comment. [16:54] thank you, all :) [16:55] aquarius, thanks, was very useful to have you there ;) [16:55] aquarius: thanks for dropping by! [16:55] no worries :) [16:55] I am fulfilling my role as an app developer :) === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-2.html === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Track: App Development | Input method support in Ubuntu Keyboard | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/meeting/22076/appdev-1311-apps-keyboard-input-methods/ [18:06] https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/document/d/1q7yySh39k3Hspif_iE12AN2YNP1dIp8N1XDDVpJ0Aas/edit [18:12] * cwayne couldnt get pinyin to work [18:12] even with latest trunk [18:12] https://code.launchpad.net/~thomas-moenicke/ubuntu-keyboard/ubuntu-keyboard-language-plugins/+merge/196105 [18:14] so this should switch over once the locale is changed automatically? [18:15] http://penkia.blogspot.tw/2013/06/ubuntu-touch-handwriting-recognition.html [18:18] what about voice recognition :P [18:19] here's a prototype https://github.com/penk/SlateKit/tree/master/IME/pocketsphinx [18:19] voice input, yup [18:21] bfiller, tmoenicke_ : whenever i try to use it, i still get english words int he ribbon [18:21] cwayne: yes [18:22] cwayne: we'll fix it [18:22] cwayne: lets try after the meeting [18:22] tmoenicke_, sure thing [18:22] bfiller, thanks [18:26] are these plugins going to be click pkgs? [18:27] rex tsai [18:28] cwayne: right thx [18:28] bfiller: we can have a new click package type if you like [18:28] bfiller: we discussed this in another session [18:28] bfiller: but defining isolation/confinment is IMO too heavy here [18:28] we can just review the source code of these special click packages [18:29] ok [18:29] bfiller: we dont really need to enable thousands of new input methods to be shipped as click [18:29] or we need to have them all preinstalled [18:29] either way is fine [18:29] the point is just that we dont need to develop a confinment methodology if we control all the input methods [18:29] im +1 for either way, click pkgs make it the easiest to get a new one in the image [18:36] tmoenicke_: oh btw, there's an invokable needed, to change candidates on wordribbon from javascript [18:36] tmoenicke_: I had a brach back in June [18:36] http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~penk/phablet-extras/maliit-plugins-qml-candidates/revision/2135 [18:54] penk_: ok i will add it === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-appdev-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/appdev-2/ - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23ubuntu-uds-appdev-2.html === bfiller is now known as bfiller_afk === bfiller_ is now known as bfiller === cwayne is now known as cwayne-afk === another`tune is now known as green-trine [21:38] http://geeks.pirillo.com norweigan ʇǝsʇ [21:48] I just about loling over the frozen beauty of my Nexus 7 on AWS .. Is this appp going to be another addition ? http://code.google.com/p/debmarshal/ [21:49] I'll check the logs later .. thank-yous. === cwayne-afk is now known as cwayne