[00:23] ali1234, bluesabre: robert's irc nick has always been robert_ancell afaik [00:24] i think if we leak that much memory all the time with the greeter, a gtkimage can't be much worse now, can it? [00:24] anyway, gotta rest [00:24] night everyone [00:24] I might do some work in a branch for that to test [00:24] night ochosi [01:31] Linux Identity magazine will be publishing an article on Xubuntu in its next edition - Xubuntu 13.10 : Bringing Xfce into the future. [01:31] Pages 32 - 33, if anyone's interested. [01:33] well i'm curious about "bringing xfce into the future" [01:36] amerigena: cool :) [01:36] It was the best title I could come up with. [01:37] I hope that some of you have the opportunity to read and critique it. [01:37] can i buy this online? [01:37] Go to Linuxidentity.com. [01:37] the website is confusing :/ [01:37] You can get the details there. [01:37] Yes, I agree with you completely. [01:38] how can a PDF download be out of stock? [01:41] I don't know. [02:04] "We lost the file when some rookie was given access to the server."? More likely, something with DRM. [03:55] Reminder: There will be an Xubuntu community meeting tomorrow. [04:08] Also, for slickymaster: http://sigma.unit193.net/xubuntu/ is the new url, and http://unit193.net/xubuntu/ is the new mirror URL. [09:30] holy smokes, someone has garbled up the submissions-page in the wiki again... :/ [10:12] morning all [10:13] knome, regarding https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh, I would like to point out just three points [10:20] knome, first, I think the reference to the official documentation should be more emphasized. As it is now it's easily missed. I don't think that there's any official icon for the documentation, but probably adding an icon to it would improve on it's visibility [10:21] knome: You probably already know it, but I'm going to post it anyway, there's this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/IconsPage where you can find a huge collection of icons [10:24] knome, second, I think the design solution of the Installation boxes results all that well, at least visually speaking. I'm not sure if it is related with the table borders or not, but it doesn't look appealing [10:27] knome, third, on the "Finding your way" section is it possible to increase the space between the image and the list in the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Signpost page? [10:28] knome: anyway, ping me if you consider I'm completely out of line here [12:29] slickymaster: i kinda forgot about it, but you'll ping me when the keyboard-shortcuts stuff in the parole-docs is ready, right? [12:29] (or is it already?) [12:31] ochosi: of course [12:32] ochosi: I haven't them ready yet because I had a flood in my apartment and everything is a bit chaotic [12:33] ochosi: I'm trying to get them done by the weekend at the very last [12:33] slickymaster: oh, sorry to hear that [12:33] we also have acqua alta here, took me quite some time to find a way through the city without getting wet... [12:34] no stress with that, i only felt bad cause i asked you about it and then kinda forgot again :) [12:34] so just do it whenever you have time [12:34] ochosi: yeah, but it's getting fixed, there's a constructor fixing all things, but as I have a wooden floor it's a bit slow [12:35] oh, meh [12:35] hope there's no slick on the floor though [12:35] (sry, couldn't resist...) [12:35] * ochosi hides in shame for the silly pun [12:36] so was it a broken pipe or water from the outside? [12:38] ochosi: a broken pipe in a bathroom [12:38] slickymaster: that sucks... here it's all sea-water [12:39] the only upside of a broken pipe is that the water is usually clean/er than water from the sea and it doesn't smell as much [12:41] ochosi: yeah, but there's nothing like the sea, I wouldn't imagine to live withou having it near by [12:41] * ochosi has done exactly that most of his life [12:42] * slickymaster also, whenever there's a chance he's surfing [12:42] :) [12:43] :) [12:43] i'm not sure there's much surfing ever in venice [12:46] ochosi: not even near that small island, the cemetery in Murano's direction? [12:47] it's called san michele [12:47] ochosi: yes, I forgot it [12:47] nah, there are rafts [12:47] but i don't think i've seen windsurfers so far [12:47] main problem could be that there's too much water-traffic [12:48] ochosi: yes, I was kidding. I know, I've in Venice twice [12:48] been ^^ [12:48] :) [12:49] gah, someone messed up the wiki page for submissions, and i fear all i can do now is revert the last change [12:49] so maybe a wallpaper will be lost, not sure [12:49] still haven't forget how well I ate in several Osterias [12:50] not sure if it's well written - Osteria [12:50] yeah [12:50] but the plural would be osterie [12:50] (in italian) [12:50] * ochosi waits for knome to jump out with the rule-book sending us off to x-offtopic [12:51] * slickymaster was think exactly the same thing [12:51] it's better not to push our luck [12:51] ;) [12:51] well if you were in -ot, i'd already have moved the conversation there [12:52] what's -ot? [12:52] #xubuntu-offtopic [12:52] ok [12:52] that miraculous place where you can talk about whatever you want :> [12:52] anyway, got go, it's lunch time and I have to go home to see how things are going [12:54] ochosi: we'll have to meet there, then, to speak about Italy, it's one of the most beautiful countries I've ever been [12:54] bbl [12:55] indeed [12:55] bon appetit, slickymaster, and good luck with your appartment! [16:03] * skellat asks what time the meeting was supposed to be today [16:05] hi skellat, I believe it was supposed to be at 16:00 UTC [16:08] oh, today [16:08] right [16:08] that would be now..? [16:09] yeaps [16:09] I'm about but will need pinging [16:09] but apparently there's almost no one around [16:09] yeah, i'm not *really* around actually [16:10] should we just reschedule for tomorrow? [16:10] one foot in the other out [16:10] or do an impromptu meeting kinda soonish, when more ppl are around [16:10] !team -- Are we proceeding with the already scheduled meeting that should have started 10 minutes ago or do we need to reschedule it? [16:10] skellat: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :) [16:11] !team-#xubuntu-devel -- Are we proceeding with the already scheduled meeting that should have started 10 minutes ago or do we need to reschedule it? [16:11] skellat: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :) [16:11] !team-#xubuntu-devel -- Are we proceeding with the already scheduled meeting that should have started 10 minutes ago or do we need to reschedule it [16:11] skellat: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :) [16:11] * skellat **SLAPS** ubottu [16:11] LOL [16:12] bluesabre, elfy, GridCube, jjfrv8, knome, micahg, mr_pouit, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, Unit193 -- Are we proceeding with the already scheduled meeting that should have started 10 minutes ago or do we need to reschedule it? [16:12] I can but will need pinging - in CC uds thing as well [16:12] reschedule [16:13] (unless ppl suddently start showing up) [16:13] I'm guessing we're going to have to [16:14] meeting? [16:15] I thought the meetings were at 15:00 [16:15] micahg: Agenda for this one said 1600 UTC [16:15] ok [16:15] I'm a little out of otuch [16:15] touch even [16:16] micahg: With the Community Council having an open session at the same time, I think we'll be re-scheduling since it would be just you and me [16:16] ok, sure, I'm just working anyways [16:17] * skellat disappears for a moment to do household cleaning [16:18] meetings moved forward and hour for the end of summer time [16:30] meeting? [16:40] GridCube: It looks like we'll be rescheduling [16:43] I guess so [16:45] knome: besides in Chapter 7. Printing and Scanning, there are two more occurrences of gksudo in xubuntu-docs, namelly in Chapter 13. The command line and in Chapter 2. Migrating and Upgrading [16:47] knome: do you think it's worth to fill bugs to each one, or can I use the existing one https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/1251332 and in my merge proposal fix them all? [16:47] Ubuntu bug 1251332 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Use of gksudo in Chapter 7. Printing and Scanning" [Undecided,New] [17:10] bbl [17:10] Lets do it now! :P So next week same time? [17:12] i guess so [17:12] we can make an informal meeting [17:15] #chair GridCube [17:25] seems the chair is sitting elsewhere Unit193 :) [17:36] hahaha [17:37] ok want me to do an informal meeting? we can do that [17:40] if anyone has anything to report you can report it and we make a mail for that? [17:42] better do a real meeting then, at least then meetingology takes the notes for us [17:42] but i suggest we stick to rescheduling, not even sure that there are many ppl around now [17:42] alright, thoug i believe you can start the meetinglogy ochosi P: [17:42] actually i have to take off again for another 30min or so [17:42] might be back later tonight though [17:42] :/ [17:43] alright,reschedule then [17:52] I'd favour that - next thursday :) [17:58] Makes sense, I'll wait a second for objections before I add it. [18:07] skellat, you can just call !team on this channel :) [18:08] and sorry, my schedule simply didn't allow me to be around the meeting [18:08] Yeah, it's normal ubottu use !fact | text [18:09] knome: Next week same time? [18:09] yep [18:14] http://goo.gl/hEIYtA [18:14] 6pm? [18:15] Same time as always. [18:17] Unit193: you did the time in not UTC? [18:17] cos it's 1800UTC here now [18:17] boo [18:17] it should be 16utc [18:18] Shows up fine for me, hrm. [18:18] is there a calendar i can subscribe to to get all of those? [18:19] it shows as 18:00 for me too btw, and i'm in GMT now, which = UTC [18:19] The google calendar, yeah. It's the only way I know about the meetings too. [18:20] they show up on fridge I thought? [18:21] thought wrong - must have subscribed to the xubuntu one [18:21] ...what's the URL for it? [18:21] There, the problem was the timezone wasn't set, so it still showed up fine for me. >_< [18:24] ali1234: https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=383qgn907l43kd425bteqjg850%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/New_York [18:24] Well... [18:26] ...but how do i subscribe to it? i need an ical url... [18:27] https://www.google.com/calendar/ical/383qgn907l43kd425bteqjg850%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics should do it. [18:27] perfect, thanks [18:29] knome: Aha! The calendar is set to default to (GMT+02:00) Helsinki. [18:30] :P [18:30] :) [18:30] feel free to re-set [18:30] if you can. [18:30] I didn't think I could, but looks like I can. [18:31] cool [18:34] Yep, problem fixed, and I didn't even set it to EST. :P (GMT, no daylight savings.) [18:34] isn't that namely UTC :P [18:35] But it doesn't call it that. :P [19:09] brainwash: did you get a chance to test the greeter branch yet? [21:16] hey people, [21:16] Yes? [21:16] we were discussing about creating a LP group ~xubuntu-qa [21:16] to at some point replace ~xubuntu-testers [21:17] -qa would be moderated though [21:17] to what end? [21:17] That was my thought, what's the logic? [21:17] to "we'll approve if you are actually helping us test or other QA activities" [21:17] -testers is mostly just a bunch of people that have a badge - there's no way we get that many people testing [21:18] or if they do then the tests never count [21:18] yep... i'm worried that -testers is just for badge collectors [21:18] so what? :) [21:18] it doesn't seem to serve a purpose [21:18] we can use that team to send out testing announcements [21:18] if people don't like getting email as a member of the team, they can quit [21:18] yes... but we can also use twitter, and we get the same amount of replies [21:19] I don't see evidence for this [21:19] we should give ita try [21:19] me neither. that's just my imagination creating that situation up [21:19] i would want to have a -qa team similar to -art and -website [21:19] pleia2: don't see evidence for what - that we've got people that are on the testers team but don't appear in test results? [21:20] when elfy sends a message to -devel about testing, he also clicks on "Contact this team's members" to send the same message to all of them [21:20] (expect that it wouldn't really have a technical-formal meaning, only social, for now) [21:20] elfy, for us getting as much replies from twitter as -testers s;) [21:20] oh right [21:20] if people are really interested in testing, they get notified, if they are badge collectors and don't like getting email about it, they'll leave the team [21:20] elfy: Techincally I did some testing, but not general ISO testing, just application for feedback normally to bluesabre. [21:20] pleia2, i disagree. [21:21] knome: based on? [21:21] pleia2, they can just filter the mail. [21:21] pleia2, and stay members of the team [21:21] doesn't hurt to try it [21:21] no, it doesn't [21:21] who cares if they stay members of the team? [21:21] * knome shrugs [21:21] I don't share the horror of teams full of badge collectors ;) [21:21] I don't care if they stay members of the team [21:21] they don't have special permissions or anything [21:22] i don't mind that either, but i'd like to see a team of 15 active people than team of 150 non-active [21:22] what I care about is having some idea of how many I can expect to test [21:22] elfy: I don't think you'll ever have that :( [21:22] well ... perhaps that's the wrong wording [21:22] sounds like just an admin annoyance, having to come up with a policy of who can be added to -qa (how many tests?), when to remove them (no tests in a cycle?) [21:22] pleia2, well... if i need to know who can help update the xubuntu website, i can always look at -website [21:23] pleia2, same policy as all other subteams. [21:23] ok - so how about this [21:23] use the contact team members - which I'd never really noticed [21:23] knome: but website and other teams actually have privs associated with them that make it important to have a moderated team [21:23] pleia2, i don't think it is a problem with the level of "traffic" we would have... [21:23] and make it moderated perhaps [21:23] knome: we want it to become a problem :) [21:24] pleia2, -qa could ultimately be a subteam of ~ubuntu-testcase, which is a team who can edit the testcases. [21:24] so what's the point of -testcase then? [21:24] (probably not right away, and possibly not at any point, but...) [21:24] pleia2, that team is the one that technically gives permissions [21:25] pleia2, note, "ubuntu-" ... [21:25] just feels like we're not actually solving a problem [21:25] my argument for the -qa team is to be able to give some recognition to people who have worked on that area [21:25] ah [21:25] because currently, it seems that they don't have a clear path to -team [21:25] because there is no subteam for them really [21:26] and there are -team members who have ultimately approved mostly for testing [21:26] so why couldn't we use -qa as a stepping stone as well [21:26] (and try to gather those active testers in that group) [21:27] i can name a few people who i'd definitely like to be in -qa who are not on -team [21:27] i mean, from the top of my head [21:27] I still don't see benefits outweighing the headache (and depriving us of a way to contact everyone who at one point showed interest in testing) but that's me :) [21:27] creating -qa doesn't necessarily mean we need to drop -testers [21:28] it isn't too much headache to list people who are active with xubuntu qa [21:28] many of us could do that right here right now [21:28] I'd 'prefer/like' to see -testers as a sub team of qa [21:28] admittedly, it's not a headache at all for me if knome does it :) [21:28] and would probably do it faster *without* looking at the -testers memberlist ;) [21:29] well ultimately the ball on that rolls to elfy [21:29] elfy, that wouldn't make much sense ;) [21:29] elfy, create a higher level group and make a lower level group part of that? :) [21:29] probably not - I'm on the heavy meds today [21:30] pleia2, heh. yeah. [21:30] mmm [21:30] pleia2, so are you saying you'd like to see us using -testers first before creating -qa? [21:30] knome: I'd like us to give it a try [21:30] ok - so let's this cycle use the contact members option [21:30] pleia2, sure. [21:30] elfy: \o/ [21:31] pleia2, apart from that, can you (not) see any benefit in creating -qa ? [21:31] that seems to be the only subteam that doesn't have their own LP group atm [21:31] one more reason to be fair and create it for them! [21:31] lol [21:31] mr_pouit: Howdy. [21:32] as i said, there doesn't seem to be a clear path from "tester" to "team member" [21:32] other than one in our heads [21:32] except "test for 5 years until somebody accidentally approves you to -team" [21:32] the strategy document is quite clear on this [21:33] -> get approved to a subteam first, later you can become a team member [21:33] if someone wants to track and maintain a -qa team with active testers, ok :) [21:34] still just feels like busy work to me unless we really do make them a subteam of the ubuntu-testcases team [21:34] it seems like there is more idea to create that now that QA !=== testing [21:34] err, !== [21:35] back when qa only involved testing... yeah, it would've been a useless group [21:35] we don't have a marketing launchpad team either because there are no launchpad things for it to do there [21:35] today being involved with QA doesn't necessarily mean involvement with testing [21:35] pleia2, yeah, but there are -docs and -art [21:35] pleia2, and -website [21:36] pleia2, what else does marketing constitute of? [21:36] website and doc at least have special access, don't they? [21:36] but there are LP things that a QA team can do - if we agree they have access to the tracker - which then entails a deal of trust [21:36] pleia2, and -art, but that's not the point :) [21:36] social media is the biggest part of marketin for us [21:36] website and marketing are separate subteams [21:36] pleia2, sure. i'm not disagreeing on that :) [21:37] docs seems to really only get bug reports, not actually be able to do anything (I was added for some strange reason.) [21:37] i've been mulling over not having -marketing either, but yeah, as you said, no reason for that team... [21:37] anyway, I don't really care in the end, it's up to elfy, I just don't want to create a bunch of launchpad teams that are just collections of people for the lulz [21:37] Unit193, you contributed to the docs? :P [21:37] pleia2, no, not at all [21:37] pleia2: neither would I [21:37] pleia2, i don't want useless teams either [21:38] you could argue that the guy who admins facebook and the one who admins linkedin should be a part of a -marketing collection-of-people for recognition and a path to membership too [21:38] but meh [21:38] pleia2, but replacing a useless team that can't be used to track even an approximate amount of anything with a team that can be used to track the approximate amount of testers [21:39] pleia2, agreed. and there is "somebody" who wishes to maintain that... ;) [21:39] I made my argument for the value of -testers and now we have an action item :) [21:39] +if [21:40] i'm uncertain if we can actually make -qa a subteam of ubuntu-testcase (depends on balloons) [21:40] but nonetheless i don't think creating -qa is a bad thing [21:40] pleia2, ALSO! [21:40] pleia2, we can then use [xubuntu-qa] for work items :] [21:41] yeah [21:41] which would be an improvement really.. [21:41] so stupid to dump everything on -team [21:41] * Unit193 symlinked team to knome. [21:42] elfy, you promise to use "contact this team" with -testers this cycle even if we create -qa? [21:42] yep [21:42] elfy, (and you still want to create -qa?) [21:42] yea with a tiny dash of not sure [21:42] heh [21:43] no - I'm sure :) [21:43] Also will have to clarify who should be on it. [21:44] the list that i had on my head is: [21:44] knome, elfy, slickymaster, Nosckaj and last but not least, Unit193 [21:44] and we could voluntell bluesabre as well, since he's on ubuntu-testcase [21:45] elfy is probably able to name a few more testers [21:45] yep - if someone is on that they should be in -qa [21:45] Not sure if I should be on if ple isn't, I don't do a ton more I don't think. lder does some too, IIRC. [21:45] I wasn't involved much in 13.10, but historically I've done tests (and will again for 14.04 [21:45] I'll trawl the test reports to see who shouts at me [21:48] and once I start using the -testers contact option we can see what comes out of the woodwork [21:49] heh, [21:49] making a team owner of a team adds it as a member. [21:49] Gridders, The Washer of Brains, Madnick? [21:49] but frankly I'd wonder why something as important as QA is - is just this random group of people who might or might not be doing anything for us [21:50] elfy, you are now administrator of ~xubuntu-qa [21:50] so I am [21:50] wonder why you expire one day earlier than me :P [21:50] * knome shrugs [21:51] I'd want to talk to slicky before co-opting him though :) [21:51] expire dates look the same to me [21:52] weird. for me it shows you expire -20, me -21 :) [21:53] for me it shows you as -20 :) [21:53] perhaps 21:49 UTC was a leap minute [21:53] lol [21:53] something like that [21:54] however - changing all the QA blueprint [xubuntu-team] to [xubuntu-qa] is going to annoy me [21:54] just as well put [elfy] :p [21:55] nah, put in -qa where you aren't sure you will be doing something :P [21:55] lol [21:55] and i hope there are some of those items as well :P [21:55] oh there will be :) [21:55] just had a quick count - 17 items [21:55] lol [22:17] * Include section on signing Ubuntu Code of Conduct << i would discuss that with skellat, the father of the idea [22:18] hey slickymaster :) [22:18] slickymaster: Howdy. [22:18] What did I do now? [22:18] hi Unit193, knome [22:19] knome, not sure if you got a chance to see it so I'm posting it now http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t10:13 [22:19] slickymaster: See my comment about a new domain name for the docs? [22:19] where is your comment, Unit193? [22:19] In here, but "http://sigma.unit193.net/xubuntu/ is the new url, and http://unit193.net/xubuntu/ is the new mirror URL." [22:20] just a sec [22:20] slickymaster, yeah, i saw it but still have to process it :) [22:20] The old one still works and should keep working, but that's the better one. :P [22:20] yeah, nice, one place with all the available translations [22:21] kudos Unit193, great work you've done [22:21] Hah, not really, you're doing most of it. :P [22:21] another thing knome, did you saw this one http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t16:45 [22:22] Unit193, no, not really [22:22] slickymaster, use bug 1251332 (note changed title) [22:22] bug 1251332 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Use of gksudo in Xubuntu documentation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1251332 [22:22] knome, got it [22:23] I still use `gksudo`, and as far as I know `sudo` will still mess with your permissions. [22:24] knome, I was thinking of going with this for the command line chapter: "If the program you wish to run as an administrator is graphical, such as the Mousepad text editor, you should enable your system's root account before launching the desired program, running the command sudo -i for that effect, even if you are running the application from the command line.< [22:24] /note> [22:24] ups, forgot to remove the tags [22:24] If the program you wish to run as an administrator is graphical, such as the Mousepad text editor, you should enable your system's root account before launching the desired program, running the command sudo -i for that effect, even if you are running the application from the command line. [22:25] umm, [22:25] slickymaster: That's actually pretty unsafe as it won't pass X permissions/authorities correctly [22:25] don't say "enable .. root" [22:25] I can replace it with "... to obtain a root prompt..." [22:25] +1 do not say "enable root" [22:26] I was thinking that too. :P [22:26] skellat: -i does, cos it starts a new login session in that user's homedir [22:26] slickymaster, that sounds better [22:27] sudo -i is what I'm assuming [22:27] gksudo works here as well Unit193 - but only becasue I installed it :) [22:27] hi slickymaster ali1234 [22:27] elfy: I had it. [22:27] and good night [22:27] skellat: and if it doesn't we have a problem, because ubuntu is telling everyone it's fine after they removed gksudo from the default install [22:28] skellat, ali1234, the option of going with sudo -i instead of gksudo was agreed with knome and elfy after discussing it with balloons [22:28] hi elfy [22:28] slickymaster: It throws errors on 12.04 [22:28] Following the example, that is [22:29] The main problem with using sudo -i over gksudo is text vs GUI prompt. [22:29] skellat, we're preparing documentation for 14.04 though, 12.04 still says gksudo [22:29] (Alt+F2) [22:29] skellat, what knome said [22:29] knome: I don't have anything set up with 14.04 to test yet [22:29] skellat, sure :) [22:30] skellat, 14.04 doesn't cames shipped with gksudo [22:30] slickymater: True [22:31] Let me walk over to the Debian Testing box and try something since that will be closer to 14.04 [22:31] Even though it is armhf [22:31] * slickymaster plans to replace "... enable your system's root account..." with "... to obtain a root prompt..." if no one objects [22:31] Lubuntu ships it, Mythbuntu and Edubuntu seem to ship it live. [22:32] would "login to a super user prompt" be better, or sound just avoiding saying "root" ? [22:32] Unit193: We could fix the seed to avoid these gyrations in editing attempts [22:33] * skellat gets called to the kitchen [22:33] knome, is super user prompt technically correct when referring to root? [22:34] i'm not sure if it's technically correct or exactly the same thing, but i think it communicates the same thing [22:34] What's wrong with root prompt? [22:34] i don't know [22:35]