spiritechfdisk -l does not do anything.00:01
penguin42spiritech: As root00:01
penguin42spiritech: fdisk -l   only lists stuff as root00:01
penguin42spiritech:   blkid /dev/sda1  for example also shows the UUID00:01
penguin42udisksctl dump    is also an interesting way but it tells you LOADS of stuff00:02
spiritechit says the id for /dev/sdc1 is c is that normal?00:06
penguin42uuid's are great bind long numbers00:06
spiritechit si set up as a bootable device00:07
spiritechsdd1 says id 8300:07
penguin42says where?00:07
penguin42oh, that's a partitation type number, not the id00:07
daftykinsspiritech: are you just running "sudo blkid" ?00:07
penguin42spiritech: That's the fdisk -l   Id column, that just tells you the type of partition00:08
spiritechmy out put from sudo fdisk -l    here   ->  http://www.pasteall.org/47594/text00:09
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
penguin42yeh it doesn't tell you much useful - that just tells you partition sizes/types00:10
spiritechsudo blkid /dev/sdd1   works and gave me long uuid number.00:11
penguin42right and that should be in /dev/disk/by-uuid00:11
spiritechso that uuid never changes. even if the device is plugged in later and given a different   /dev/sdb thing.00:12
spiritechso   /dev/disk/by-uuid will always find that device?00:12
spiritechif plugged in00:13
penguin42spiritech: normally yes (I've seen it not work for some internal sata drives but that's a separate story) - but for things like usb drives it's always good00:13
penguin42spiritech: You'll see it's just a symlink - and udisks sets that up for you automatically00:13
spiritechok. well thats cool.00:13
spiritechi have an old theme called azenis. have put it into a .icon and .theme   folder at ~/... and the tweak tool still does not find it.00:15
spiritechany suggestions?00:15
ali1234probably doesn't support gtk3?00:16
spiritechit is an old gtk and metacity-1 theme. it was working on 13.04. and have seen other themes if the same format working.00:17
spiritechhow many .folders should i have for themes in my home folder 2 or 3?00:18
spiritech~/.icon ~/.theme   should there be another?00:19
spiritechanyway does not matter that much. thanks for your help again.00:20
spiritechunity top panel would so much better if it was transparent by default. the dull grey black really lets it down.00:23
spiritechits like. heres a beautiful modern side panel, and then heres a nice, old and dull looking panel at the top for you.00:24
spiritechso going back to the device subject. does /media/username/corsair8gb simply point to /dev/disk/by-uuid    soooo     corsair8gb = /dev/disk/by-uuid        somewhere in the system?00:42
spiritechgoing back to the device subject. does /media/username/corsair8gb simply point to /dev/disk/by-uuid    soooo     corsair8gb = /dev/disk/by-uuid        somewhere in the system?00:44
penguin42no, the /media/username/corsair8gb is a mountpoint, not the device00:44
spiritechso how does the computer know where corsair8gb is?00:45
penguin42spiritech: Do you understand unix/linux mounts?00:45
spiritechit seems no.00:45
penguin42spiritech: OK, so the /dev/ stuff is raw blocks - that's like gives me the bytes at this place on the partition - it's not files/directories etc - that's what your filesystem does00:46
spiritechalll i am saying is the device is not really corsair8gb. it is really an address yes.00:47
penguin42spiritech: When you 'mount' something you associate a directory (lets say /media/username/corsair8gb) with a block device (say /dev/sdd1) and tell the filesystem to present that block devices contents under that directory00:47
spiritechand how does it do that. is there anywhere i can read about it maybe. cos i always thought that some kind of variable goes on to turn the actual device address into a human readable name?00:49
spiritechlike /media/username/corsair8gb is just a variable for     16537652615/185761547512475/1236576157152762500:51
spiritechor am i not understanding things correctly.00:51
penguin42spiritech: There's two different parts to it; the act of 'mounting' and where you mount it, the name 'corsair8gb' is just reading a string that's probably a label stored somewhere on the filesystem00:52
spiritechok. i see.00:52
penguin42spiritech: Just like the uuid is a magic id stored somewhere on the filesystem but isn't designed to be user readable00:52
daftykins*nod* FAT volume label00:52
* daftykins has a 'corsair16gb' :>00:52
spiritechthe addressing is another part of it then?00:52
penguin42spiritech: Thing is there are lots of different places names might be stored, e.g. if it's formatted one way or another, and things like blkid and udisks figure that all out and come up with the name that they use when they automatically mount stuff for you - but in the end you can manually put it whereever you like (as per fstab)00:53
spiritechok. i undersatnd that . and suppose i am on a diff subject now.00:54
spiritechlike how linux dials the device it wants to send info to.00:55
penguin42sorry, don't quite get you00:55
spiritechdoesnt everything in a computer need to be dialled.00:56
spiritechto send the information to the right place?00:56
penguin42sorry I don't know what you mean by 'dialled'00:56
spiritechwell how does the computer know where to send the info that it has. like send this info to usb port 1. doesnt each component have an address?00:58
spiritechas well as the ram  and other things like hdd .00:59
penguin42oh it's way more complex than that these days - layers on top of layers on top of layers00:59
spiritechthats what i thought was at the base of all of it.  send this bunch of 1's and 0' to this address.01:00
penguin42no, that's so far down the food chain nothing at this level really thinks aboutit01:00
spiritechyes. although its till there tho.01:01
penguin42spiritech: Think about it like this; that file you stored? It's a file on top of a VFAT filesystem where the blocks are stored on a SCSI device, that's actually on USB connected via two or three levels of USB hub back to one of one or two USB host controllers on a PCIe bus somewhere on your PC01:01
penguin42spiritech: each one of those things is a layer of code that tries not to care about the layers below it and the layers above it (except some perf tweaks)01:02
spiritechyes. and the file was still sent in binary form. either on or off.  the layers just make sure that those 1's and 0's make sense on both ends.01:05
penguin42spiritech: but they hide it from each other and it's all protocol now - it's not like it's at different individual addresses, there are addresses and things at each layer01:06
spiritechwhich brings me to another question. does the file get sent to ram before it gets sent to the usb device or does it go direct?01:06
penguin42oh via a few layers in ram01:06
spiritechalso i agree the layers hide all the work and make things a lot simpler. although its those layers i am interested in dissecting and understanding a little further.01:08
spiritechafter all. what would gorillas be without ants?01:09
penguin42relaxed and not confused as hell about why their fir is twitching?01:10
spiritechor whales without plankton then.01:10
spiritechanyway i suppose i should really google more on this subject. as i feel our subject has become more about stuff other than ubuntu01:12
spiritechor penguin42 without bed. indeed.01:13
spiritechwell thanks again for yours help. :)01:14
MooDoomorning all07:10
mungbeanday off today \o/07:38
MooDooand you're up this early on here?07:39
mungbeangiving wife a lie in07:39
mungbeanfeeding baby07:39
MooDooah lovely :)07:39
mungbeanduty calls07:39
MyrttiAmazon has Black Friday deals week this week, they've got a Crucial 2.5-inch 240GB Internal Solid State Drive on at 10.30 if anyone is interested08:19
=== iahmad is now known as iahmad|afk
MyrttiI have no idea if it's good or not, and no I'm not an Amazon lackey08:20
Myrttijust thought someone might be interested and value a reminder that they have such a thing08:21
MooDooMyrtti: 10.30?08:21
Myrttiin two hours08:21
MartijnVdSand 8 minutes08:21
MooDooah get you08:21
MyrttiWindows 8 Pro Upgrade edition is 45 pounds there now08:22
MooDooi bought that when it was £25 :)08:22
dwatkinsas did I, useful for games and other things which don't yet run on linux (Bitcasa, for one)08:23
MooDoophotoshop and lightroom for me08:27
MyrttiI feel silly, I go all "eeeekkkk what a lovely bag" sometimes and I surprise myself with it08:27
Myrttithis happens usualy with only laptop bags08:28
bigcalmGood morning peeps :)08:28
MooDooMyrtti: i took my wife shopping and we went to a bag shop, cheapest handbag was £90 :S08:28
MyrttiMooDoo: zoink08:29
MooDooMyrtti: radley, i think was the name of them08:29
dwatkinsThere are some very well designed laptop rucsacks available. I have to stop myself buying them.08:48
SuperMattmorning d08:49
dwatkinsallo allo08:49
MooDoohello SuperMatt dwatkins08:49
dwatkinsI have black tea, although apparently earl grey is supposed to be without milk - good job, as I have none08:50
SuperMattdwatkins: yes it is08:52
SuperMattthough tbh, who cares? just have it the way you like it08:53
MooDooearl grey tastes grim with milk08:53
SuperMattthe only senses we have are our own, so there's no point trying to spend your life pleasing other people's senses08:53
dwatkinsindeed, being lactose-intolerant (it makes me ill, not annoyed) I have to buy my own milk at work, and I ran out.08:56
diploMornall all08:59
SuperMatttautalogical on purpose?09:01
dwatkinstautalogical, SuperMatt?09:03
SuperMattmornall all09:04
SuperMatttwo alls09:04
SuperMatttautology is using multiple similar words twice09:04
SuperMattmeaning one of them is redundant09:04
=== schwuk_away is now known as schwuk
Myrttidwatkins: all UHT milk in Finland is low-lactose, you can imagine my face when I realised such is not the case in UK09:06
dwatkinsMyrtti: interesting, I wish that were the case here. Going out for dinner is a nightmare as so much stuff has cream in it, too.09:19
Myrttidwatkins: many Finns are at bare minimum selfdiagnosed lactoseintolerants so lot of the food is lowlactose/lactose free by default09:20
Myrttiand it is usually marked in the menus09:20
bigcalmYay, I've been given an RMA number for my OCZ SSD09:21
=== iahmad|afk is now known as iahmad
directhexbigcalm, i swapped an OCZ SSD out of my dad's PC yesterday09:25
bigcalmdirecthex: was it deaded?09:25
MartijnVdSit's SSD season.. aq's, yours, ...09:28
MartijnVdSAmazon's deal comes at the right moment ;)09:28
directhexbigcalm, kept disappearing from the bus09:28
bigcalmdirecthex: that's just what mine did before going completely09:28
bigcalmOver a few months09:29
LaneySSD deal?09:29
bigcalmPower off and back on usually fixed it09:29
MooDooLaney: 240gb deal, black friday it's a crucial drive09:29
MooDoogoing on sale 10:30 or so Myrtti sais09:29
Laneyah, one of those things09:30
popeyhmm, i dont see any SSD in the black friday page09:40
popeyis it personalised?09:40
JamesTaitGood morning all; happy Parfait Day! :-D09:40
bigcalmpopey: lightning deals09:40
bigcalmpopey: upcomming bit09:41
bigcalmpopey: few clicks to the right (depending upon how wide your browser window is)09:41
MooDoodeal starts at 10:3009:42
popeyI "need" a bigger one really.09:43
popeyMy laptop has 2x240GB SSD already09:43
popeywill wait for the 500G ones to come down a bit09:43
popeywatched http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01f13f4/The_Man_who_Discovered_Egypt/ last night. enjoyed it...09:46
TheOpenSourcererpopey: I watched that too. Very interesting - had never heard of the bloke before.09:47
popeyyeah, me either09:47
popeytweeted the guy who made it last night to say thanks09:47
jussihow do other people organise stationery on their desk. Mine is a mess, stickers, staplers, hole punchers, pens, usb sticks headsets etc. do people have them in boxes? or pencil cases? or what do you do ?09:49
TheOpenSourcererinteresting word "organise"...09:50
directhexjussi, filing cabinet, alphabetical ordering!09:50
TheOpenSourcererI just throw stuff onto my desk until I can't see the wood. Then decide I need to tiday.09:50
jussiTheOpenSourcerer: that is the current strategy. it sucks.09:51
diddledanI do the same as TheOpenSourcerer except the last part09:51
TheOpenSourcererMy desk at home is nearing its annual tidy up...09:51
TheOpenSourcererI've managed somehow to keep my office desk amazingly clear, but then I don't use much paper and only keep one pen on it09:52
popeyi use old mugs to put stuff in09:52
popeyi have a mug of euros, a mug of GBP, one for pens, one for screwdrivers09:52
popeyand a mug of tea ☻09:52
MooDoopopey: are you having your image [the one of you stroking a cat] put on a mug, I'd buy it lol09:53
diddledanpopey is blofeld?09:53
popeywhat, like this? http://imgur.com/Cpkj6D3,UswfyC4,YY4aSHL,IiFscKE,Iv9QnVB09:54
diddledancute kitty09:56
MooDoothe one of you at vUDS - https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlanPope/photos/photo/5947973727567261394 ;)09:56
MooDooone way for you to make a few quid alan :)09:58
TheOpenSourcererWe are over 60% of the way there: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-raspberry-pi-build-cluster-for-ubuntu :-D09:58
MooDooTheOpenSourcerer: just shared it out again.09:59
popeyjussi: that said, yes I do have some little plastic boxes10:00
brobostigongood morning everyone.10:02
popeyYes. Good morning.10:04
MooDoobrobostigon: morning10:04
popeyhttp://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/x-series/x140e cute10:07
popeygood for schoolkids10:07
popeyand has touchpoint so yay10:07
jussipopey: nice!10:08
diddledanI like that schoolkids are described as "more demanding" than the military10:09
brobostigonmorning MooDoo and bashrc10:09
diddledani.e. they bash it harder10:09
bashrcHave been messing with a Beaglebone Black.  Debian installs quite easily onto it.10:16
jussididdledan: hehe, probably true...10:16
MooDoohello czajkowski how are you ?10:19
popeywell that was a fun 10 mins10:20
arsenwho works in the canonical london office? :o10:20
popeypostman handed over post then said "ooh, Ubuntu!" after seeing my t-shirt10:20
popeychatting about linux on the doorstep with the postie ☻10:21
arsen.. the world is changing :)10:21
popey"2014 is the year of linux on the doorstep."10:21
MooDoodid you give him a disk ;)10:21
diddledanpopey: awesome10:21
diddledanspeaking of which, I don't actually have any ubuntu aparell10:22
popeynah, he already has it10:22
MooDoodiddledan: you need to get on the store quick sharpish ;)10:25
TheOpenSourcererczajkowski: <almost feeling sorry for the paddies>Shame about yesterday wasn't it?</almost feeling sorry for the paddies>10:25
MooDooTheOpenSourcerer: she's almost geeling sorry for the english in the rugby world cup as well ;)10:26
czajkowskiTheOpenSourcerer: well lets see how England does and will they almost beat the Kiwis10:27
TheOpenSourcererSome of us have little expectation, although we have, at least, beaten them several times in the last 100 years ;-)10:30
czajkowskisuch a cheeky old sod TheOpenSourcerer :)10:30
czajkowskihmm I have an very odd bug on 13.10 which I know exists but cannot for the life of me report it via  abug10:31
MooDoogone down to £95 that 240gb ssd on amazon10:31
czajkowskiwhen I shut down the machine it flipping well restarts10:31
czajkowskibut not every time10:31
MooDooignore that link10:31
jussihrm, ideapad yoga 11s looks an interesting machine...10:32
jussiie. http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/yoga/yoga-11s/10:34
jussialthough crappy screen is crappy10:35
popeyupdated nexus 7 to 4.4 OTA, seemed to work okay10:36
arsenthink i'm gona go back to a 11inch mac air and dual boot it :/10:38
bigcalmYay. Samsung SSD has arrived for my Wife's laptop10:40
* popey notes bigcalm isn't getting bored of using "my wife" yet10:41
Myrttiwas that ssd deal any good?10:41
MooDooMyrtti: took it down to about £9510:41
MyrttiI have no idea if it's a good price or a good device at al10:42
bigcalmpopey: without the quotes, that sentence is quite quite different10:42
popeyit has 15 mins left on that deal10:44
bigcalmWhich deal?10:46
SuperMattwho is it here that works at Queen Mary's?10:47
MartijnVdSbigcalm: cheap SSD black friday deal on amazon10:47
bigcalmThere's 2h 41m remaining on that10:48
MooDooIs ubuntu uk having a virtual christmas party? ;) over google hangouts? ;)10:51
bigcalmCan I justify 96 quid on an SSD I'm unlikely to use any time soon?10:51
MooDoobigcalm: no10:52
bigcalmMooDoo: thank you :)10:52
MooDoobigcalm: yw!10:52
* bigcalm closes the window10:53
penguin42but how much would I pay for the Olympus camera coming up in a few mins?10:54
MooDoobigcalm: :)10:54
TwistedLucidityAnyone got experience using the nvidia NVS 5400M discrete graphics card?10:55
MooDooTwistedLucidity: I've fot the 3100M it's not 100% the same, but what's your problem?10:58
TwistedLucidityAppaling performance (about 1/10th of the integrated Intel). Is this normal?10:58
penguin42TwistedLucidity: Is this with the Nvidia closed source driver?10:59
TwistedLuciditypenguin24: And Bumblee (I have the correct closed source variant); yes10:59
bigcalmAm I right in thinking that one shouldn't run Windows XP from an SSD?11:00
penguin42TwistedLucidity: Hmm I'd expect it to be really fast11:00
Rorybigcalm: Or een at all11:00
penguin42hmm, that Olympus is #105 - not quite low enough to make me jump at it, not too bad11:00
TwistedLuciditypenguin24: Even if I boot into Windows 7 the card stinks. nvidia told me it is only for applications can can't do 3D acceleration.11:00
RoryOh my key between c and b doesn't work11:01
MooDoobigcalm: xp doesn't support trim, so i suspect it's only the lifespan effected.11:01
RoryThat's why this keyboard was in a cupboard11:01
penguin42TwistedLucidity: That's a bizarre thing to say11:01
popeyRory: vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv keep those to one side for when you need them11:01
Rorypopey: I'll contact you again if I use them up, thanks11:01
penguin42TwistedLucidity: what machine is this on?11:01
TwistedLucidityLenovo ThinkPad T43011:01
Rorypopey: I'd paste them off to the side...11:02
popeyI'd print them out and scan them in when you need them11:02
TwistedLuciditypenguin42: And in Windows, the "Windows Experience" drops from 4.9 to 2.0. I am beginning to wonder if the machine has a fault.11:02
bigcalmMooDoo: that's what I thought11:02
penguin42TwistedLucidity: Hmm I've only used the w520 in the past - but it is normally the Nvidia is supposed to be faster11:02
MooDoobigcalm: it'll still work though11:03
penguin42TwistedLucidity: I'd check the bios is up to date - the thinkpad bioses can be a bit random; and you've got it set on 'discrete' rather than optimus? And you've got the correct powerbrick plugged in?11:03
bigcalmMooDoo: just not for very long :)11:04
TwistedLuciditypenguin42: Yup, on mains power, latest drivers (Windows and Kubuntu). If I try "discrete graphics" in the BIOS the laptop crawls.11:04
davmor2Morning all11:04
penguin42TwistedLucidity: I agree that's weird11:04
bigcalmdavmor2: morning11:05
TwistedLuciditypenguin42: Thanks, I'll keep trying to get in contact with Lenovo; might have to try and make a warranty claim I guess.11:05
TwistedLucidityI wasn't expecting quad GPU, SLI mega-performance; but from the 3D mark I did expect the NVS 5400M to be about twice as fast as the Intel HD 400011:06
penguin42TwistedLucidity: As I say, I would try the bios first11:07
TwistedLucidityThe other odd thing (on Windows) is that it won't let me select the graphics card.11:07
TwistedLuciditypenguin42: I'll check that again at lunch. Maybe I missed an update.11:07
davmor2Holidays == E:TOO_MANY_EMAILS11:08
jussidavmor2: +++11:09
davmor2Laney: hey dude did you get a markus in the end?11:09
davmor2Or did you go for a standing desk instead?11:10
Laneydavmor2: yeah, sure did11:10
Laneyenjoying it very much so far11:10
davmor2Laney: Yay community rocks at recommending chairs11:10
LaneyI like being able to recline11:10
Laneystanding desk will be at next place I think, only just got this one11:11
Myrttithey do have an office chair on sale soonish too11:12
Myrttiwell, after noon11:12
* czajkowski hugs davmor2 11:12
davmor2czajkowski: get off me you don't know where I've been woman :D11:12
* Laney gets an email about a DD being switched to $newcurrentaccount11:14
Laneythis switching service seems to basically work11:14
czajkowskidavmor2: cuddlying a pug :)11:14
mungbeananyone get to the bottom of chrome's sudden jump in resource requirements?11:15
davmor2czajkowski: bash is the pug not me honest :P11:16
davmor2mungbean: it hates you11:16
Laneybangers and bash11:16
davmor2mungbean: if it's chrome it might be their implementation of flash11:17
diddledanI hadn't noticed any change in requirements for chrome11:17
MooDoodavmor2: is czajkowski being nice?   eewwwwww11:17
davmor2mungbean: you might find that ad blocking is now disabled too, possibly11:17
Myrttimungbean: hasn't it *always* eaten everything you've got11:18
davmor2MooDoo: I know right it's scary, all because she has a pug, that you wouldn't know about because g+, facebook and twitter just don't give it away :D11:18
davmor2czajkowski: I'm looking at you for the last comment grrrrrrr embedded pictures ;)11:19
mungbeansuddenly its a lot worse for mem and making my fan go crazy11:20
czajkowskidavmor2: but he's so cute!11:20
MooDoodavmor2: I don't know czajkowski gets this new job and takes advantage....she needs to stab you and qucik sharpish!11:20
mungbeanfew others were complaining the same day11:20
czajkowskialso if anyone would like to learn about MongoDB, there is a free class on it over the coming weeks, self paced and you get  acert at the end of it . https://education.mongodb.com/courses/10gen/M101P/2013_November/about11:21
MooDoowell that's a cool idea.11:22
MooDoowell it was until I saw the requirements, I'm not a programmer :)11:22
davmor2czajkowski: have you ever heard the term pug ugly :P I'll just leave that comment there and move on /me sits on the naughty step sniggering  on a more serious note he did look quite smug in Jons arms :D11:23
czajkowskiMooDoo: self paced why not try :)11:23
czajkowskidavmor2: sit there and be quiet you11:23
czajkowskialso socks are not safe neither are shoe laces from Bash :)11:23
davmor2MooDoo: and that's how you get czajkowski back to normal :)11:23
MooDooczajkowski: ok i've signed up :)11:25
davmor2czajkowski: that's just pupies but you need to stop him doing that, I recommend a toy on a stick11:25
czajkowskihe has toys, and also taken to dragging his bed from one room to the next.11:26
czajkowskifor a tiny thing he's strong, although need to get his nails trimmed as they clawed me last night when giving him cough stuff11:27
davmor2czajkowski: you don't clip puppie claws you need to wait till they are 6 months before you start clipping iirc look it up though11:31
diddledanI prefer kitties :-)11:31
davmor2czajkowski: iirc it's something to do with the nail bed not being fully formed so you can clip it too short which can in turn infect the nail bed or something like that11:33
MooDooI prefer tahr's11:34
MartijnVdSMooDoo: trusty ones?11:34
MooDooMartijnVdS: depends if you get to know them well ;)11:36
czajkowskidavmor2: interesting11:49
davmor2MooDoo: I prefer wee timorous beasties with big pointy teeth, it helps if you have a holy hand grenade knocking around for that though :)11:51
MooDoodavmor2: oh now you're just giving me the spanish inquisition11:53
mungbeanpopey, night vision for you11:53
mungbean15 left inthe early bird11:53
davmor2MooDoo: Ni11:53
mungbean..r webcam11:53
mungbeanah, it uses an app to send wirelessly11:56
mungbeanlol http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1961548517/all-new-adventures-of-morph-from-aardman-animation12:02
penguin42mungbean: You had to go for one of the rather high end packages to get a morph, which I thought was mean12:06
diddledanI like that they had chaz boot morph up the .. at the end12:28
diddledanthe video12:28
diddledanthat was actually a really good kickstarter video12:28
penguin42well, it is their business12:33
penguin42I'm sure they could have got the money going to a bank or the like, but it would have cost them more - I guess this is probably costing them what #4k or so?12:40
Myrttihttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/502701513/foldio-the-1st-foldable-studio-for-smartphone <-- considering12:40
popeynot getting a jolla device?12:41
popeysorry, unrelated to that12:41
popeythats very cool12:42
penguin42oh, probably nearer #10k I guess, kickstarter fees12:42
TwistedLuciditypenguin42: Looks like you might have been on to something, my current BIOS version is 2.53, the most recent is 2.59. Trying to find detailed change logs to see if any of them fixed nvidia issues.12:58
penguin42TwistedLucidity: Oh I wouldn't bet on the change logs12:58
popey"Usually dispatched within 2 to 4 weeks.12:58
penguin42TwistedLucidity: I used to work in an office with a load of people with w520's - we had about 5 different bios versions and they each had their own quirks, but the newest was best generally12:58
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|lunch
TwistedLuciditypenguin24: Before I make the situation any worse I decided to invoke the warranty. If this card can be made to perform as I expect, this will be an awesome lappy.13:30
TwistedLucidityNew BIOS going in...fingers crossed. I see an evening of fun an games with updates ahead of me! :-S13:45
SuperMatthave we all played this yet?13:45
MyrttiI have13:52
TwistedLuciditypenguin42: Fixed it. You'll never guess what it was.13:52
TwistedLuciditypenguin42: Someone (not me) had applied the airplane seat power plan. Sauerbraten now thumps along at ~400fps.13:54
TwistedLucidityCheers for the help!13:54
diddledanhow does that affect ubuntu?13:55
penguin42TwistedLucidity: Ah right - yeh so that's why I asked if you had the PSU in14:13
MooDooSuperMatt: took me a few moments to work out what the heck was giong on14:13
TwistedLucidityI did - but the "Airplane " setting seems to impose itself. I'll have to have a fiddle with the power management - clearly it arrived in a slightly cocked manner. What was odd though it that the setting affected Windows and Kubuntu.14:14
SuperMattit's truly shocking though when you do14:14
TwistedLuciditydiddledan: Buggered if I know.14:14
TwistedLuciditydiddledan: Some kind of NVRAM setting?14:15
penguin42diddledan: I think it's a power-limit imposed to limit the required PSU size14:17
arsenczajkowski  - thanks for the mongoDB link :)14:18
RoryAnyone in Leeds want to go to this tomorrow? http://www.leedsdevops.org.uk/post/67145731550/meetup-tuesday-26th-november-2013-at-the-central14:21
TwistedLucidityWhatever way it works, I'm just happy it works! Means I need to keep the Windows partition for some games, but I guess I can bear that until things improve14:26
arsenalso czajkowski - there's a DBA course for sysadmins i guess - https://education.mongodb.com/courses/10gen/M102/2013_December/about14:27
=== alan_g|lunch is now known as alan_g
andycHow come this doesn't compile?  I seem to have messed something up with the initialiser list.. http://ideone.com/9554Kr14:38
czajkowskiarsen: yup but not started yet14:39
arsenyeah i registered my interest, may as well!14:40
andycOh never mind I didn't realise I had to write a default constructor14:40
andycAm I allowed to use this in an initialiser list like that?14:43
andycOoopss sorry every spamming the wrong channel :(14:44
czajkowskifor those in Edinburgh http://www.meetup.com/MongoDB-Edinburgh/events/152065532/14:44
=== dackjaniels is now known as Guest22247
mungbeangilmore girls is the worst programme ever...14:51
mungbeani think i hate it as much as eastenders14:51
popeynever seen it14:52
mungbeanit gives me a stomach ache. my wife is watching it but if i want to use the laptop on the sofa i must silently bear it14:52
MartijnVdSmungbean: http://reviews.cnet.com/best-noise-canceling-headphones/14:53
mungbeanalmost time to pick the boy from nursery. days off fly by so fast14:54
mungbeantgrying to write a christmas list :(14:54
penguin42mungbean: Chocolate14:57
popeymy amazon wish list is my christmas list14:57
MartijnVdSsame here14:57
MartijnVdSI maintain it thoughout the year by adding things to it.. sometimes buying a few items14:57
czajkowskipopey: wish I could get Jon to do that14:58
popeyi always add some random cheap stuff to it too14:58
popeyin case people have a low budget for pressies14:58
czajkowskitrying to do his Christmas shopping is a royal pita, how do you buy the geek that buys stuff anyways :/14:58
popeyi want that, but wifey says she doesn't want it in the house14:58
penguin42czajkowski: Chocolate14:58
popeyczajkowski: does he have a quadcopter?14:59
czajkowskipenguin42: we have a bookers card14:59
czajkowski:) we buy lots in :)14:59
czajkowskipopey: he does in fact14:59
czajkowskinever uses it14:59
popeyhah, blimey14:59
czajkowskihe bought one via kickstarter15:00
popeybuy him a donkey for a child in an african poverty stricken country15:00
popeyit'll get way more use15:00
czajkowskipopey: this is true15:00
czajkowskichristmas our anniversay and valentines all within 8 weeks15:00
czajkowskiso I may do a t-shirt hell or think geek order15:00
czajkowskihe loves t-shirts15:00
mungbeanmost things i want are not on amazon15:01
popeythreadless are good too15:01
mungbeanshirt.woot.com is good15:02
popeysome great ones there now15:03
popeyhttp://www.threadless.com/product/5369/I_Have_a_Bike/tab,guys/style,shirt like that15:03
popey\o/ bacon http://www.threadless.com/product/5004/Magic_Bacon_Ride/tab,guys/style,shirt15:04
mungbeangonna get fatrher in law this one15:04
mungbeanthe models on threadless put me off, i can't get past it15:05
czajkowskithreadless I like a lot but the quality of t-shirts does vairy15:06
czajkowskiif only he liked dr.Who I'd be so sorted to buying stuff15:06
czajkowskialas he's not :)15:06
MooDooczajkowski: that's disgraceful dump him15:07
MooDooit's the in thing to do i'm dumping my wife for her best friend as she is a geek and likes sci fi, my wife doesn't lol15:07
MooDooI am joking folks lol15:17
Seeker`woo, monty python tickets booked15:36
MartijnVdSSeeker`: how? they were sold out in 40 seconds15:36
Seeker`MartijnVdS: the first date was sold out in 40 seconds15:37
Seeker`they added another 415:37
Seeker`and I actually booked them around 1130, but I've only just got round to IRC / just recieved the confirmtation email15:37
Seeker`by the time I got to the front of the online queue, almost all of the 5 dates had sold out15:39
=== LjL^ is now known as LjL
bigcalmdavmor2: new gpg key ask I didn't have a backup to restore from after my SSD died15:52
MartijnVdSbigcalm: ouch15:53
bigcalmMartijnVdS: I've learnt from my ways15:53
MartijnVdSbigcalm: you could ask the NSA for a copy15:53
bigcalmMartijnVdS: Doh, why didn't I think of that?15:53
bigcalmMartijnVdS: about to make a truecrypt usb flash drive of my keys that will live in the safe15:54
bigcalmHumm. I wonder which is a more lasting format: CD/DVD or USB flash drive15:55
MartijnVdSbigcalm: either way, refresh every few years15:56
MartijnVdSbigcalm: so put it in your google calendar ;)15:56
penguin42bigcalm: Well I have a 17year old CD I can read - but I don't know if a modern CD would last that long15:56
bigcalmBoth physically and likely to be compatible with systems in the future15:56
MartijnVdSbigcalm: CDs are on the way out though, for PCs15:56
MartijnVdSbigcalm: USB will be around for a while15:56
bigcalmI guess refreshing is the way to go15:57
bigcalmAnd I agree about lack of optical drives in devices doesn't give it a long future15:57
diddledantruecrypt it then put it on the cloud16:14
diddledanjust hope it never rains16:14
Seeker`MartijnVdS: friend just tried to buy some tickets, only the £ 495 meet+greet ones left16:23
penguin42Seeker`: He could try and haggle....16:46
=== bubu is now known as bubu\a
shaunoI just found a server called spongebob :/16:58
shaunobah, that wasn't meant to go here16:58
TheOpenSourcererSo where's squarepants then?16:59
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
shaunoheh, it's there too17:06
shaunobut I was just mashing up/enter trying to reconnect.  finally figured out my mifi was being dodgy because I forgot to plug it in, so the wee battery was wheezing17:07
Myrttitempted to get the Morphy Richards multicooker17:53
mungbeani used to watch monty python as a kid, but the reunion fills me with meh17:54
popeyI'd rather re-listen to their old stuff17:55
mungbeanit'll be much the same i guess17:56
mungbeannostalgia pays17:56
arseni'm keen, what if it's good? :)17:56
penguin42then there's youtube17:56
daftykinsmy my, being asked to find a decent ultrabook in black for ~£600 is tough17:57
* penguin42 hands daftykins a pot of black paint17:58
penguin42daftykins: What are your criteria for decent?17:58
daftykinsat least an intel i5, preferably greater than 4GB RAM although it looks like it won't happen, plus an SSD or a large HDD with small SSD cache drive combo17:58
daftykinsfew manufacturers have even moved to Haswell so far17:59
penguin42daftykins: http://www.amazon.co.uk/ATIV-Book-Lite-Quad-Core-NP905S3G-K02UK/dp/B00G3YIJXC/ref=sr_1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1385402348&sr=1-2&keywords=samsung+ativ+book ?17:59
daftykinsyeah those are the ones i'm avoiding, as the "quad-core" processor is some netbook-esque AMD APU as best i can tell18:00
arseni played with someone's toshiba one last night, was nice.18:00
arsenequally i've had my hands on a fujitsu one which claims to be the thinnest or something.18:00
daftykinsarsen: AMD APU jobby?18:00
arsenthat was very nice.18:00
penguin42daftykins: Hmm yeh it's only the none 'lite' ones that are a better CPU18:01
=== alan_g is now known as alan_g|EOD
arsenit looked like that, i cnat find the spec tho. i'm more saying that i picked it up and it was surprisingly light, rather than recommending it :P18:03
arsenif it were me, £600 is a refurbed mac air :p18:03
penguin42daftykins: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pavilion-14-b107sa-i5-3337U-Processor-Windows/dp/B00B65PTGI/ref=sr_1_23?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1385402553&sr=1-23&keywords=ultrabook  ?18:04
penguin42not that ultra though from the shape18:04
arsenseen that website about laptop failure statistics?18:04
daftykinsit doesn't look too bad!18:04
mungbeanpopey: Myrtti what's the name of those special flight socks please?18:04
daftykinspenguin42: good find :)18:04
arsen24% of HP laptops fail inside of 3 years i think.18:04
Myrttimungbean: nabee18:04
mungbeanthanks :D18:04
daftykinsalthough "dispatched within 1 to 2 months" - doh!18:05
daftykinshaha ouch18:05
* penguin42 would like an 'itsfailed' site where you can log when you buy something and when it fails18:05
arseni'd be buying asus/tosh/sony/apple personally :P18:05
daftykinsyeah if only i could find something apt18:06
daftykinsthis is for the boss' kid who wants something matte black ideally ;/18:06
arsenwhat's the requirements?18:06
arsenso form over function :D18:06
daftykinsseems that way - he's got a chunky Sony at the moment18:06
daftykinswith an SSD and RAM upgrade in it it would probably be fine, but it's looking likely he's after something that looks modern18:07
arseni really wish they wouldnt stick stickers on laptops in the inside, it looks so cheap18:08
penguin42arsen: Curious that the graphic and numbers don't match on that failure stats page18:10
penguin42arsen: The asus blob is for 12% but the table says 15.618:11
arsenweird. yeah i see.18:11
arsendaftykins  - matt black, modern and well rated - http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/thinkpad/x-series/x1-carbon/18:12
daftykinshaha yeah, doesn't meet the £6-700 target sadly18:12
arsengona struggle with SSD/lots of ram for that budget, especially if choosey about appearance.18:13
daftykinsooh hello18:13
daftykinshow have i not seen this one before18:13
penguin42that does fit - bit low res, but does fit the price18:14
daftykinsyeah nasty ol' 1366 - i figure you'll only get a full HD panel in something premium18:14
arsenplayed any games recently daftykins ?18:15
daftykinsmostly playing GTA V with friends on the 360 lately18:15
arsendare i suggest it: http://store.apple.com/uk/product/FD711B/A/refurbished-116-inch-macbook-air-13ghz-dual-core-intel-core-i518:16
daftykinsapparently he doesn't want Apple :o i was shocked18:16
arsenif its me, i'd go lenovo if not apple, and nothing else :/ not a huge fan of laptops so i'm picky.18:17
MartijnVdSthe Dell developer edition Ubuntu laptops ♥18:17
arsenyeah encourage ubuntu :D18:18
arsentime to cycle home. :)18:18
daftykinsoh wow, that Lenovo Ideapad U330 Touch is £556 excluding VAT18:19
daftykinsthat gives room for an SSD and RAM upgrade mayhaps18:19
penguin42oh you didn't say you were cheating by going for ex-vat18:22
daftykinsbut what's it earning? :)18:32
MartijnVdSbitcoins 8-)18:32
daftykinsin value terms18:32
penguin42popey: Serious rack-pr0n - the cabling is a bit wacky18:33
penguin42and what - 3x3 phase/rack - although can't quite tell current18:34
diddledanit almost sounds fake18:41
diddledanbut.. these chinese, you can't trust them to fabricate anything convincingly, so it might just be real!18:42
ali1234daftykins: about $15,000 per day18:42
daftykinswhich dollar?18:42
diddledanper DAY?!18:43
diddledanI wonder how much their running and startup costs come to18:43
daftykinsmy thoughts exactly18:43
ali1234one block found = $15,00018:44
ali1234the whole network is minting about $2M worth of bitcoins every day18:44
ali1234asicminer funded their startup by allowing people to invest18:44
MartijnVdSali1234: wasn't asicminer a scam company that took the money AND didn't send the ASICs?18:45
ali1234no, that was butterfly labs18:45
ali1234anyone else think it's funny how all the bitcoin scams come out of USA, while all the ones that are real come out of china and russia18:46
diddledanthat's because the americans haven't got jobs so they want the quickcash whereas the chinese and russians realised that the real con is to go long-term and pump+dump the value of the BTC :-p18:54
diddledanit's like a stock market scam18:54
* MartijnVdS is waiting for the big drop18:54
Myrttifor Plex users, their Android app has a sale, it's on at £1.23 now in Google Play18:59
diddledanwhat's the app do?19:01
diddledanI know plex on the pc side19:01
Myrttiacts as an Android remote control and player19:01
=== webpigeon_ is now known as webpigeon
daftykinswow i just had a "wtf" moment going to dial a # on my Nexus 4 for the first time since the KitKat update19:05
daftykinsi had no idea what i was staring at :D19:05
daftykinskinda cool it resolving numbers to companies and that now though19:05
MartijnVdSdaftykins: it does it the other way too19:06
MartijnVdSdaftykins: if a company calls you, and that company has a Google profile with their number on it, you'll see their name instead of just the number19:06
diddledanthat's useful. or rather it would be if the CLID couldn't be spoofed19:07
daftykinsthis appears to be quite the winner so far19:07
diddledanit's nice to get a human readable name instead of just a random number, but you still have the issue with number-spoofing19:08
diddledandaftykins: sweet discount19:08
diddledandown from £799.99 to a measly £799.9519:09
daftykins£670 delivered to Guernsey :O19:09
diddledanthat's wow19:09
diddledanmeh, you're looking without the vat19:09
diddledandamn foreigners19:09
MartijnVdSdaftykins: have him order it for you ;)19:09
MartijnVdSuh wait19:10
daftykinswho is him :(19:10
diddledanTHE "him"19:10
MartijnVdSI'm confused19:10
daftykinsi'm the tax dodging islander19:10
MartijnVdSWhich one of ( diddledan, daftykins ) is ordering the laptop19:10
diddledanthere is only one "him" and he comes once a year on the 25th19:10
MartijnVdSand which one is in Guernsey?19:10
daftykinswell i'm shopping for someone right now19:10
daftykinsand i'm the Guern :>19:10
MartijnVdSdaftykins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIM_(Finnish_band)19:10
diddledandaftykins: is the foreigner19:10
MartijnVdSdaftykins: order one for diddledan as well then :P19:11
daftykinshe'd have to pay VAT at the post office :(19:11
diddledannot if you give it to me as a gift19:11
MartijnVdSdaftykins: just bring it on your next "business trip" to the UK19:11
MartijnVdSthe mainland*19:11
MartijnVdS"Yeah that's my laptop"19:12
shauno*the motherland19:12
daftykinsdem mainlanders19:12
MartijnVdSDER HEIMAT19:12
diddledan<insert nasty-party joke here>19:12
MartijnVdSdiddledan: they call it that now? The "nasty-party"?19:13
diddledanMartijnVdS: I do to get around draconian bots that insist that nazi is a bad word19:13
diddledannamely over on a different server19:13
MartijnVdSdiddledan: Well, anti-ukipers could use it too19:14
diddledaneww @ ukid19:14
diddledanevil evil people them19:14
MartijnVdSdiddledan: "nasty party, that"19:15
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
diddledanI like how a known racist in america found out he's part african19:16
MartijnVdSwell, self-hatred is a thing19:17
diddledanas in too much african that his own dna purity scale would exclude him19:17
MartijnVdSdiddledan: hitler didn't have blue eyes and blonde hair either19:17
diddledanMartijnVdS: bleach19:17
daftykinsgotta run, time for food and what not19:18
daftykinsta-ra \o19:18
spiritechhi. i am having problems with the mini.iso netinstall. the installation was complete, however when i try to boot the hdd nothing happens. the only way i can get it to boot is by booting from the usb stick which in turn boots the hdd.19:37
MartijnVdSspiritech: sounds like the bootloader never got installed (correctly)19:38
MartijnVdSspiritech: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Boot-Repair looks like it might help solve the problem19:38
spiritechcan i fix this at this stage, or do i have to do a new install.19:38
spiritechcould it be something to do with the grub being in the wrong place?19:39
spiritechi will have a look at your link now.19:39
MartijnVdSpossibly. Or it could be that your machine is set to boot from UEFI only, and Ubuntu was installed in a non-UEFI way (or the other way around, but that's rarer)19:39
directhexi met something horrifying yesterday19:42
directhexyou know how there's "CSM", which is a compatibility layer for UEFI, allowing a UEFI motherboard to boot BIOS-style for legacy OSes?19:42
spiritechsomething must have changed on the usb, as i can no longer run the net install process.19:42
MartijnVdSdirecthex: I've heard of something like that19:43
MartijnVdSspiritech: that might be where it installed the bootloader then 8-)19:43
spiritechcan i fix that manually?19:44
directhexMartijnVdS, THE REVERSE EXISTS19:44
MartijnVdSdirecthex: an UEFI environment that boots from a BIOS-style bootsector?19:44
spiritechby moving the files. or is it more complex than that?19:44
MartijnVdSdirecthex: why am I not surprised19:44
directhexMartijnVdS, evil from the nether realm, allowing a BIOS motherboard to boot UEFI-only boot loaders and OSes.19:45
diddledanit was developed by intel, directhex19:45
MartijnVdSspiritech: re-create the boot CD, or do whatever that web page suggests :)19:45
MartijnVdSdirecthex: what's it called? :)19:45
directhexMartijnVdS, it's a per-vendor thing. Gigabyte calls it "Hybrid EFI Technology"19:46
spiritechdoes anyone know when ubuntu 13.10 will be added to Unetbootin list?19:46
diddledandirecthex: it's based on tianocore19:46
directhexdiddledan, part of it.19:47
spiritechor is there a way i can add it myself. by giving Unetbootin the url?19:47
directhexdiddledan, it's still just an Award 6.00 BIOS underneath19:47
diddledandirecthex: yes, the tianocore is designed to run that way19:47
directhexdiddledan, not really19:47
diddledansorry, I appear to be wrong - it's based on the subsection of tianocore called "duet" or "DuetPkg"19:51
directhexit's an EFI emulator, running on top of 16-bit Award BIOS19:51
diddledanyeah, I've got it on my desktop (which I rarely use)19:52
* MartijnVdS tries to remember when the first "configurable" BIOSes came out19:52
MartijnVdSour XT clone didn't have it19:52
MartijnVdSour 486 did19:52
diddledanin the form of Gigabyte's HybridEFI19:52
MartijnVdSmy 386 had 1 or 2 options to configure19:52
directhexdiddledan, my dad's PC was bricked. turns out Hybrid EFI does *NOT* like EFI-booted Windows 7 trying to hibernate19:52
penguin42how bricked?19:53
directhexappeared to be totally bricked (no POST at all). but resetting the CMOS resurrected it19:53
diddledanMartijnVdS: my Amstrad PC1512 had a form of configuration backed up by a 4xAA battery - it was stored in NVRAM - so when the battery died then the settings were wiped19:53
MartijnVdSdiddledan: yeah, the XT did have some memory -- it kept the time19:54
directhexdiddledan, which board is it?19:54
MartijnVdSdiddledan: but it didn't have a "Press DEL to configure"-like screens (yet)19:54
MartijnVdSdiddledan: then again, it only had 640kb RAM ;)19:54
diddledandirecthex: FXA990-UD5 I seem to recall19:54
directhexdiddledan, i discovered that gigabyte had posted a "beta" bios update which completely replaces the Award BIOS w/ Hybrid evil, with a full native UEFI19:55
diddledanMartijnVdS: right, the NVRAM needed to be set in the DOS19:55
diddledandirecthex: really?19:55
MartijnVdSdirecthex: gigabyte is a bit weird like that19:55
diddledandirecthex: that sounds interesting19:55
penguin42directhex: Interesting, that's pretty nasty19:56
MartijnVdSI have this: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4514#ov19:56
MartijnVdS(and I boot it fully UEFI)19:56
directhexdiddledan, yes, really19:56
diddledandoes it work? :-p19:56
davmor2MartijnVdS: did freedos on floppy/cd/usb key cover it?19:56
directhexMartijnVdS, 8-series chipsets should all have real UEFI. it's the 6 and 7 series ones with "touchBIOS" which use the hybrid nonsense19:57
directhexdiddledan, still won't suspend, but just throws an error on resume rather than bricking. IMPROVEMENT!19:57
MartijnVdSdavmor2: uh, huh?19:57
* MartijnVdS has USB problems :(19:57
directhexdiddledan, also, full GUI/clicky setup, not ye olde blue and white19:57
MartijnVdSAll my USB ports are USB3 ports, and plugging in an USB2 3G modem breaks because some kind of timeout19:57
directhexi have a gigabyte board in my PC, but it's too old for EFI of any kind19:58
diddledanwhere do I find this piece of awesomeness?19:58
davmor2MartijnVdS: then don't do that :P19:58
MartijnVdSdirecthex: Mine has the full GUI setup. Until you click somewhere it doesn't like, then it reverts to blue/white BIOS mode ;)19:58
directhexdiddledan, as far as i can tell, the limiting factor is the size of the BIOS chips on the board. if they're not 4MB, too small.19:58
diddledanI think mine are 8MB19:58
directhexdiddledan, looks like the FXA990-UD5 rev3 is natively UEFI, and the FXA990-UD5 rev1 is hybrid only with no update to UEFI-ify it20:00
diddledandirecthex: it's the version 1 that I've got :-(20:01
directhexdiddledan, i think it must be an AMD 990FX + issue - ALL the boards have a rev1 or rev3, with rev3 as natively UEFI and rev1 as BIOS/hybrid20:03
diddledanyeah, that sucks20:05
directhexlooks like only a subset of intel chipsets got conversions20:07
directhexnot all intels, and no amds20:07
diddledanI can't see any hardware differences in the spec of the two boards20:13
directhexdiddledan, something you can't see? like... lack of EFI versions of various firmwares?20:17
directhexno idea20:17
MartijnVdSa slightly larger flash chip? they don't tend to put that in bios specs..20:18
diddledanMartijnVdS: I think that can be the only difference20:19
diddledanthe rev3 bios downloads are twice the size of the rev120:19
diddledan2.88MB vs 1.12MB20:19
diddledansorry, 1.18MB (what's 600KB between friends?!)20:20
diddledannope, 60KB20:20
MartijnVdS2.88MB? ED 3.5" disks? :)20:20
diddledanmeh, I can't count20:21
MartijnVdSdiddledan: ls -h ;)20:21
diddledanls -h is awesome20:22
shaunols --si is awkward :/20:24
diddledanls: illegal option -- -20:25
MartijnVdSshauno: 1000 instead of 1024?20:25
diddledan-s = sort by size, -i = print inode number20:26
MartijnVdSdiddledan: --si vs -si20:26
diddledan--si doens't work20:26
shaunoif '-' is an illegal option, you don't have longopts, hence you're using bsd's ls20:27
MartijnVdSbsd ls is evil20:27
diddledanshauno: you should know I'm using a mac20:27
MartijnVdS"ls *.c -la" vs "ls -la *.c"20:27
MartijnVdSBSD find is also evil20:27
MartijnVdS"find -name blah" errors, you HAVE to say "find . -name blah"20:27
shaunoyeah, it always tells me off for trying to put -maxdepth in the wrong place.  positional something something monkey20:28
MartijnVdSit knows what you want/mean -- it's there's no ambiguity20:28
MartijnVdSbut let's NOT do it anyway20:29
diddledanbsd sucks for not just using gnu20:29
shaunoalthough, one thing I do love about BSD .. the manpages never tell you to do 'info foo invocation'20:29
diddledanyeah, I never worked out how to work info20:30
diddledanit always seemed to load the same page no matter what I typed on the CLI20:30
shaunoI'm fairly convinced you're not meant to.  it feels like someone well placed really should have been working for oreilly instead20:31
diddledandoes that mean that o'reilly books are impossible to read, too?!20:35
shaunoit's a shame old games are still iffy.  if someone would mate retropie & archive.org I'd mail them hugs20:42
ali1234we need to stamp out info20:44
ali1234it's blatantly rubbish20:44
MartijnVdSali1234: convince GNU...20:44
MartijnVdSDebian has been trying for years20:45
diddledanI think part of the problem is the GNU project insist everything MUST be GPL licensed so they invent replacements for perfectly good things just becasue they're not licensed under the GPL20:51
shaunos/problem/point/ ?20:51
diddledans/GNU project/dick stallman/ ?20:52
MartijnVdSshauno: they don't accept licenses with *more* freedoms than GPL20:52
diddledanI've heard it argued, impressively, that the BSD license is better for opensource20:52
MartijnVdSBSD or MIT20:53
diddledanyeah, they're very similar20:53
diddledanI think the only difference is the attribution restrictions on which entity you're not allowed to claim affiliation with20:53
shaunosometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.  it's never as clear cut as those with vested interests pretend20:53
diddledani.e. berkeley uni vs massechusets (sp?) uni20:54
diddledanmeh, let's move MIT to michigan, I can spell that20:55
shaunoeg, forcing linksys down a path where they had to let you all in was quite handy.  BSD wouldn't have done that20:55
diddledanyes, that was pretty useful20:55
shaunothe bsd licence is really, really useful for reference implementations though. eg, half the world taking pointers form bsd's network stack, the jpeg licence (which apparently isn't bsd, but I can't tell the difference ..)20:59
diddledanI just spotted a GLSA (Gentoo security) that announced an issue in fcron of being susceptible to symlink attacks (I presume that's replacing a file with a symlink to gain access to what you're not allowed) - surely those sort of attacks should be prevented by the kernel, not each individual app?20:59
diddledanhalf the world? I thought the whole world was running off bsd network stack21:00
MartijnVdSdiddledan: partially21:00
diddledancertainly all windows are and all os xs are21:00
shaunoI'm not actually sure windows still are.  but they certainly spread it far and wide enough that it'd be basically impossible to try "our tcp implementation is *almost* compatible with yours" now21:02
shauno(as much as Apple try .. heh)21:03
diddledanI read that argument as "it's impossible to argue that we're not good enough"21:04
diddledanit's either that or "it's impossible to argue that we will ever be good enough"21:04
shaunoI think that just depends how big & ugly you are.  look at the "browser wars".  you can get a long way with being 'almost' compatible with each other21:04
penguin42diddledan: Yes the kernel will stop obvious symlink problems, it's the more subtle problems - e.g. if you look at it once and then look again or something like that - do you have a link to the advisory?21:33
diddledanpenguin42: http://www.gentoo.org/security/en/glsa/glsa-201311-16.xml21:49
penguin42diddledan: Hmm it doesn't say much21:49
shaunohttp://www.shmoo.com/mail/bugtraq/feb01/msg00271.shtml  seems like interesting reading21:50
shaunoah, nm, just noticed the date :)21:50
diddledaneven a "race condition" should be handled by the kernel, surely? i.e. my pseudo code: open file, kernel prevents file change, check file isn't a symlink, read file, close file21:51
MartijnVdSdiddledan: no, it can't21:51
MartijnVdSdiddledan: because then the kernel would have to analyze *every* file access to see if something else tried to look at the symlink earlier21:51
MartijnVdSthe program should use atomic replace/link creation functions21:51
diddledanisn't that what file locks are for, i.e. something the kernel is supposed to support?!21:51
MartijnVdSand proper randomness21:51
MartijnVdSdiddledan: nah, locks are advisory, not forced21:52
penguin42diddledan: So the classic examples are you figure out that something will read a file with a given name, you can put anything you like in that file, so it seems safe because it only reads what you put there - but if you put a symlink at there to something else, and it reads that as root then it lets you read an arbitrary file21:52
MartijnVdSso it's either "breaking POSIX" or "take care when writing programs with temp files"21:52
diddledanso it's "broken by design" IMO21:53
MartijnVdSpossibly, but it prevents the "windows failure mode" of not being able to remove/replace a file when something has it open21:53
penguin42diddledan: Yeh I mean it's just a bug where it's accessing a file in some way without checking it by the sounds of it21:54
penguin42diddledan: In a way symlinks break a lot of basic assumptions that you might reasonably make, so it means you have to think a lot more21:55
diddledanthe kernel or the libc should give you some sugar surely tho?21:55
MartijnVdSif programs use modern APIs things will work -- the most modern versions of libc have functions that do The Right Thing, and things that can't work reliably are officially discouraged21:55
penguin42diddledan: Well you can use 'stat' to figure out if you're dealing with a symlink21:56
MartijnVdSpenguin42: sure, but that's not atomic21:56
diddledansurely stat will suffer the same problem?21:56
MartijnVdSpenguin42: you can stat(), then open.. but in the meantime, someone could replace the file with a link21:56
diddledani.e. stat file <-- not a symlink, someone nasty replaces file, open file <-- symlink21:57
MartijnVdSdiddledan: there are flags for "open()" that prevent that21:57
penguin42ah yeh O_NOFOLLOW21:58
diddledanand this is why concurrency makes clever peoples' brains melt :-p21:58
shaunocan't you stat a filehandle?21:58
MartijnVdSshauno: you can, but then you'd have to open it first21:58
penguin42MartijnVdS: Which you can now do with O_PATH21:58
MartijnVdSshauno: fstat21:58
shaunoright, but opening it isn't the issue.  it's trusting what you've opened21:59
shaunoso open it, run your sanity check against the filehandle rather than the file, and continue if they pass.  anything that happens on disk after the open doesn't matter21:59
diddledanas a random aside: why can't I get chrome to like bugs.gentoo.org's ssl cert?22:01
MartijnVdSshauno: that works for reading, but for writing/truncating you might want to check earlier :)22:01
MartijnVdSO_EXCL etc.22:01
MartijnVdSdiddledan: works for me22:01
MartijnVdSdiddledan: ah, CACert22:01
diddledanyeah, I've installed CACert's public key22:02
MartijnVdSdiddledan: it's a CACert certificate, maybe you don't trust them?22:02
diddledanit seems they're using a different intermediary than is listed on cacert.org22:04
diddledanthe cert I installed expires 20 May 2021, but the one that bugs.gentoo.org seems to present expires 28 March 203322:05
diddledanhttps://cacert.org works fine, but https://bugs.gentoo.org gives me a cert validation error22:14
diddledani.e. the red "get me out of here" page22:14
popeyhttps://bugs.gentoo.org/ doesnt fail for me22:15
popeyfine in chromium, only fails in ff22:15
diddledanfails in both chrome and safari for me22:15
diddledanif it fails in firefox for you, can you get it working at all? because that's where I'm failing - I cannot get it to recognise the chain from cacert.org's root certificate to bugs.gentoo.org's cert22:18
diddledanthe failing node is the class 3 intermediate certificate22:18
Myrttihas this been here yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMYfkOtYYlg22:21
diddledanMyrtti: fun22:28
shaunowow.  imagemagick is *really* slow on the pi22:31
popeywow, thats great Myrtti22:35
diddledanshauno: it's not hardware accelerated, that's why22:36
ali1234wasn't CACert the one that got hacked, and then dropped by mozilla?22:43
ali1234no apparently not. they've never been included in mozilla22:44
directhexCAcert isn't included in any major browser, but is in most major linux distros22:47
directhexCAcert is kinda "free software hippie" in its approach, i.e. it's gratis and volunteery, not based on mailing your passport scans to israel and giving them free reign over your credit card like other much more trustworthy hosts22:49
popeyhmm, lost the battery cover for our virgin media box remote22:51
gordonjcpI appear to have both gordonjcp@gjcp.net and gordon@gjcp.net registered with CACert, but no idea what the passphrase is22:55
gordonjcpand I don't recognise any of the security questions22:55
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
popey13 mins till launch23:06
popeyoh, counter stopped?23:07
diddledanpopey:  needs commentary23:08
diddledanoh dear, it sprung a leak23:08
popeykeeps buffering here23:08
diddledando we know what the payload is?23:09
diddledanaah, SES 823:10
popeysome random satellite23:10
directhexSES has satellites worldwide, hard to say where this'll end up broadcasting23:13
diddledanthe info in the top post says "The SES-8 telecommunications satellite is an Orbital Sciences GEOStar-2 spacecraft that will provide communications coverage of the South Asia and Asia Pacific regions. This hybrid Ku- and Ka-band spacecraft weighs 3,138 kg (6,918 lbs) at launch."23:14
penguin42I thought this was their first attempt at a geostationary23:14
diddledan"SES-8 will be SpaceX’s first launch to a geostationary transfer orbit – 80,000 km from Earth – and most challenging mission to date. Launch window opens at 5:37pm EST on Monday."23:14
diddledannice that it's a commercial entity doing it rather than a national body23:15
shaunoI just hope it doesn't have to be either/or.  handing off the 'haulage' so NASA can worry about getting me to Mars - awesome.  handing it over so they can quit paying NASA .. less awesome23:21
diddledanoh dear23:29
diddledanthat doesn't sound healthy23:29
diddledan"I can't work out what it started"23:29
diddledanwe're just about to hit scheduled time23:30
diddledanso we're not three minutes over23:30
diddledanali1234: it's due to fire at 23:30 GMT/UTC23:30
diddledanit's now 23:3123:31
ali1234by my clock it's 23:3523:31
ali1234why is my clock really wrong??23:31
diddledanMon Nov 25 23:32:06 GMT 201323:32
penguin42you're not running ntp?23:32
ali1234yeah but why not?23:32
penguin42ali1234: Is it that you just got too far out, I don't think the daemon will correct a swing bigger than a certain limit?23:47
ali1234no, for some reason xubuntu doesn't install ntpd23:47

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