[00:01] <spiritech> fdisk -l does not do anything.
[00:01] <penguin42> spiritech: As root
[00:01] <penguin42> spiritech: fdisk -l   only lists stuff as root
[00:01] <penguin42> spiritech:   blkid /dev/sda1  for example also shows the UUID
[00:02] <penguin42> udisksctl dump    is also an interesting way but it tells you LOADS of stuff
[00:06] <spiritech> it says the id for /dev/sdc1 is c is that normal?
[00:06] <penguin42> no
[00:06] <spiritech> hmm
[00:06] <penguin42> uuid's are great bind long numbers
[00:07] <spiritech> it si set up as a bootable device
[00:07] <spiritech> sdd1 says id 83
[00:07] <penguin42> says where?
[00:07] <penguin42> oh, that's a partitation type number, not the id
[00:07] <daftykins> spiritech: are you just running "sudo blkid" ?
[00:08] <penguin42> spiritech: That's the fdisk -l   Id column, that just tells you the type of partition
[00:09] <spiritech> my out put from sudo fdisk -l    here   ->  http://www.pasteall.org/47594/text
[00:10] <penguin42> yeh it doesn't tell you much useful - that just tells you partition sizes/types
[00:11] <spiritech> sudo blkid /dev/sdd1   works and gave me long uuid number.
[00:11] <penguin42> right and that should be in /dev/disk/by-uuid
[00:12] <spiritech> so that uuid never changes. even if the device is plugged in later and given a different   /dev/sdb thing.
[00:12] <penguin42> correct
[00:12] <spiritech> so   /dev/disk/by-uuid will always find that device?
[00:13] <spiritech> if plugged in
[00:13] <penguin42> spiritech: normally yes (I've seen it not work for some internal sata drives but that's a separate story) - but for things like usb drives it's always good
[00:13] <penguin42> spiritech: You'll see it's just a symlink - and udisks sets that up for you automatically
[00:13] <spiritech> ok. well thats cool.
[00:15] <spiritech> i have an old theme called azenis. have put it into a .icon and .theme   folder at ~/... and the tweak tool still does not find it.
[00:15] <spiritech> any suggestions?
[00:16] <ali1234> probably doesn't support gtk3?
[00:17] <spiritech> it is an old gtk and metacity-1 theme. it was working on 13.04. and have seen other themes if the same format working.
[00:17] <spiritech> gtk2
[00:18] <spiritech> how many .folders should i have for themes in my home folder 2 or 3?
[00:19] <spiritech> ~/.icon ~/.theme   should there be another?
[00:20] <spiritech> anyway does not matter that much. thanks for your help again.
[00:23] <spiritech> unity top panel would so much better if it was transparent by default. the dull grey black really lets it down.
[00:24] <spiritech> its like. heres a beautiful modern side panel, and then heres a nice, old and dull looking panel at the top for you.
[00:42] <spiritech> so going back to the device subject. does /media/username/corsair8gb simply point to /dev/disk/by-uuid    soooo     corsair8gb = /dev/disk/by-uuid        somewhere in the system?
[00:44] <spiritech> penguin42
[00:44] <penguin42> ?
[00:44] <spiritech> going back to the device subject. does /media/username/corsair8gb simply point to /dev/disk/by-uuid    soooo     corsair8gb = /dev/disk/by-uuid        somewhere in the system?
[00:44] <penguin42> no, the /media/username/corsair8gb is a mountpoint, not the device
[00:45] <spiritech> so how does the computer know where corsair8gb is?
[00:45] <penguin42> spiritech: Do you understand unix/linux mounts?
[00:45] <spiritech> it seems no.
[00:46] <spiritech> not
[00:46] <penguin42> spiritech: OK, so the /dev/ stuff is raw blocks - that's like gives me the bytes at this place on the partition - it's not files/directories etc - that's what your filesystem does
[00:47] <spiritech> alll i am saying is the device is not really corsair8gb. it is really an address yes.
[00:47] <spiritech> ?
[00:47] <penguin42> spiritech: When you 'mount' something you associate a directory (lets say /media/username/corsair8gb) with a block device (say /dev/sdd1) and tell the filesystem to present that block devices contents under that directory
[00:49] <spiritech> and how does it do that. is there anywhere i can read about it maybe. cos i always thought that some kind of variable goes on to turn the actual device address into a human readable name?
[00:51] <spiritech> like /media/username/corsair8gb is just a variable for     16537652615/185761547512475/12365761571527625
[00:51] <penguin42> no
[00:51] <spiritech> or am i not understanding things correctly.
[00:52] <penguin42> spiritech: There's two different parts to it; the act of 'mounting' and where you mount it, the name 'corsair8gb' is just reading a string that's probably a label stored somewhere on the filesystem
[00:52] <spiritech> ok. i see.
[00:52] <penguin42> spiritech: Just like the uuid is a magic id stored somewhere on the filesystem but isn't designed to be user readable
[00:52] <daftykins> *nod* FAT volume label
[00:52]  * daftykins has a 'corsair16gb' :>
[00:52] <spiritech> the addressing is another part of it then?
[00:53] <penguin42> spiritech: Thing is there are lots of different places names might be stored, e.g. if it's formatted one way or another, and things like blkid and udisks figure that all out and come up with the name that they use when they automatically mount stuff for you - but in the end you can manually put it whereever you like (as per fstab)
[00:54] <spiritech> ok. i undersatnd that . and suppose i am on a diff subject now.
[00:55] <spiritech> like how linux dials the device it wants to send info to.
[00:55] <penguin42> sorry, don't quite get you
[00:56] <spiritech> doesnt everything in a computer need to be dialled.
[00:56] <spiritech> to send the information to the right place?
[00:56] <penguin42> sorry I don't know what you mean by 'dialled'
[00:58] <spiritech> well how does the computer know where to send the info that it has. like send this info to usb port 1. doesnt each component have an address?
[00:59] <spiritech> as well as the ram  and other things like hdd .
[00:59] <penguin42> oh it's way more complex than that these days - layers on top of layers on top of layers
[01:00] <spiritech> thats what i thought was at the base of all of it.  send this bunch of 1's and 0' to this address.
[01:00] <penguin42> no, that's so far down the food chain nothing at this level really thinks aboutit
[01:01] <spiritech> yes. although its till there tho.
[01:01] <penguin42> spiritech: Think about it like this; that file you stored? It's a file on top of a VFAT filesystem where the blocks are stored on a SCSI device, that's actually on USB connected via two or three levels of USB hub back to one of one or two USB host controllers on a PCIe bus somewhere on your PC
[01:02] <penguin42> spiritech: each one of those things is a layer of code that tries not to care about the layers below it and the layers above it (except some perf tweaks)
[01:04] <daftykins> :D
[01:05] <spiritech> yes. and the file was still sent in binary form. either on or off.  the layers just make sure that those 1's and 0's make sense on both ends.
[01:06] <penguin42> spiritech: but they hide it from each other and it's all protocol now - it's not like it's at different individual addresses, there are addresses and things at each layer
[01:06] <spiritech> which brings me to another question. does the file get sent to ram before it gets sent to the usb device or does it go direct?
[01:06] <penguin42> oh via a few layers in ram
[01:07] <penguin42> normally
[01:08] <spiritech> also i agree the layers hide all the work and make things a lot simpler. although its those layers i am interested in dissecting and understanding a little further.
[01:09] <spiritech> after all. what would gorillas be without ants?
[01:09] <spiritech> lol
[01:10] <penguin42> relaxed and not confused as hell about why their fir is twitching?
[01:10] <spiritech> lol
[01:10] <spiritech> or whales without plankton then.
[01:12] <penguin42> bed!
[01:12] <spiritech> anyway i suppose i should really google more on this subject. as i feel our subject has become more about stuff other than ubuntu
[01:13] <spiritech> or penguin42 without bed. indeed.
[01:14] <spiritech> well thanks again for yours help. :)
[07:10] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:38] <mungbean> day off today \o/
[07:39] <MooDoo> and you're up this early on here?
[07:39] <mungbean> giving wife a lie in
[07:39] <mungbean> feeding baby
[07:39] <MooDoo> ah lovely :)
[07:39] <mungbean> duty calls
[08:19] <Myrtti> Amazon has Black Friday deals week this week, they've got a Crucial 2.5-inch 240GB Internal Solid State Drive on at 10.30 if anyone is interested
[08:20] <MartijnVdS> noice
[08:20] <Myrtti> I have no idea if it's good or not, and no I'm not an Amazon lackey
[08:21] <Myrtti> just thought someone might be interested and value a reminder that they have such a thing
[08:21] <MooDoo> Myrtti: 10.30?
[08:21] <Myrtti> in two hours
[08:21] <MartijnVdS> and 8 minutes
[08:21] <MooDoo> ah get you
[08:22] <Myrtti> Windows 8 Pro Upgrade edition is 45 pounds there now
[08:22] <MooDoo> i bought that when it was £25 :)
[08:23] <dwatkins> as did I, useful for games and other things which don't yet run on linux (Bitcasa, for one)
[08:27] <MooDoo> photoshop and lightroom for me
[08:27] <Myrtti> I feel silly, I go all "eeeekkkk what a lovely bag" sometimes and I surprise myself with it
[08:28] <Myrtti> although
[08:28] <Myrtti> this happens usualy with only laptop bags
[08:28] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[08:28] <MooDoo> Myrtti: i took my wife shopping and we went to a bag shop, cheapest handbag was £90 :S
[08:29] <Myrtti> MooDoo: zoink
[08:29] <MooDoo> Myrtti: radley, i think was the name of them
[08:48] <dwatkins> There are some very well designed laptop rucsacks available. I have to stop myself buying them.
[08:49] <SuperMatt> morning d
[08:49] <dwatkins> allo allo
[08:49] <MooDoo> hello SuperMatt dwatkins
[08:50] <dwatkins> I have black tea, although apparently earl grey is supposed to be without milk - good job, as I have none
[08:52] <SuperMatt> dwatkins: yes it is
[08:53] <SuperMatt> though tbh, who cares? just have it the way you like it
[08:53] <MooDoo> earl grey tastes grim with milk
[08:53] <SuperMatt> the only senses we have are our own, so there's no point trying to spend your life pleasing other people's senses
[08:56] <dwatkins> indeed, being lactose-intolerant (it makes me ill, not annoyed) I have to buy my own milk at work, and I ran out.
[08:57] <SuperMatt> doh
[08:59] <diplo> Mornall all
[09:00] <SuperMatt> morning
[09:01] <SuperMatt> tautalogical on purpose?
[09:02] <MartijnVdS> Mornalling?
[09:03] <dwatkins> tautalogical, SuperMatt?
[09:04] <SuperMatt> mornall all
[09:04] <SuperMatt> two alls
[09:04] <SuperMatt> tautology is using multiple similar words twice
[09:04] <SuperMatt> meaning one of them is redundant
[09:06] <Myrtti> dwatkins: all UHT milk in Finland is low-lactose, you can imagine my face when I realised such is not the case in UK
[09:19] <dwatkins> Myrtti: interesting, I wish that were the case here. Going out for dinner is a nightmare as so much stuff has cream in it, too.
[09:20] <Myrtti> dwatkins: many Finns are at bare minimum selfdiagnosed lactoseintolerants so lot of the food is lowlactose/lactose free by default
[09:20] <Myrtti> and it is usually marked in the menus
[09:21] <bigcalm> Yay, I've been given an RMA number for my OCZ SSD
[09:25] <directhex> bigcalm, i swapped an OCZ SSD out of my dad's PC yesterday
[09:25] <bigcalm> directhex: was it deaded?
[09:28] <MartijnVdS> it's SSD season.. aq's, yours, ...
[09:28] <MartijnVdS> Amazon's deal comes at the right moment ;)
[09:28] <directhex> bigcalm, kept disappearing from the bus
[09:28] <bigcalm> directhex: that's just what mine did before going completely
[09:29] <bigcalm> Over a few months
[09:29] <Laney> SSD deal?
[09:29] <bigcalm> Power off and back on usually fixed it
[09:29] <MooDoo> Laney: 240gb deal, black friday it's a crucial drive
[09:29] <MooDoo> going on sale 10:30 or so Myrtti sais
[09:29] <MooDoo> said
[09:30] <Laney> ah, one of those things
[09:40] <popey> hmm, i dont see any SSD in the black friday page
[09:40] <popey> is it personalised?
[09:40] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Parfait Day! :-D
[09:40] <bigcalm> popey: lightning deals
[09:41] <bigcalm> popey: upcomming bit
[09:41] <bigcalm> popey: few clicks to the right (depending upon how wide your browser window is)
[09:41] <popey> aha
[09:42] <MooDoo> deal starts at 10:30
[09:43] <popey> I "need" a bigger one really.
[09:43] <popey> My laptop has 2x240GB SSD already
[09:43] <popey> will wait for the 500G ones to come down a bit
[09:46] <popey> watched http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01f13f4/The_Man_who_Discovered_Egypt/ last night. enjoyed it...
[09:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> popey: I watched that too. Very interesting - had never heard of the bloke before.
[09:47] <popey> yeah, me either
[09:47] <popey> tweeted the guy who made it last night to say thanks
[09:49] <jussi> how do other people organise stationery on their desk. Mine is a mess, stickers, staplers, hole punchers, pens, usb sticks headsets etc. do people have them in boxes? or pencil cases? or what do you do ?
[09:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> interesting word "organise"...
[09:50] <popey> indeed
[09:50] <directhex> jussi, filing cabinet, alphabetical ordering!
[09:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> I just throw stuff onto my desk until I can't see the wood. Then decide I need to tiday.
[09:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> *tidy
[09:51] <jussi> TheOpenSourcerer: that is the current strategy. it sucks.
[09:51] <diddledan> I do the same as TheOpenSourcerer except the last part
[09:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> My desk at home is nearing its annual tidy up...
[09:52] <TheOpenSourcerer> I've managed somehow to keep my office desk amazingly clear, but then I don't use much paper and only keep one pen on it
[09:52] <popey> i use old mugs to put stuff in
[09:52] <popey> i have a mug of euros, a mug of GBP, one for pens, one for screwdrivers
[09:52] <popey> and a mug of tea ☻
[09:53] <MooDoo> popey: are you having your image [the one of you stroking a cat] put on a mug, I'd buy it lol
[09:53] <diddledan> popey is blofeld?
[09:54] <popey> what, like this? http://imgur.com/Cpkj6D3,UswfyC4,YY4aSHL,IiFscKE,Iv9QnVB
[09:56] <diddledan> cute kitty
[09:56] <MooDoo> the one of you at vUDS - https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlanPope/photos/photo/5947973727567261394 ;)
[09:58] <popey> heh
[09:58] <MooDoo> one way for you to make a few quid alan :)
[09:58] <TheOpenSourcerer> We are over 60% of the way there: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-raspberry-pi-build-cluster-for-ubuntu :-D
[09:59] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: just shared it out again.
[10:00] <popey> jussi: that said, yes I do have some little plastic boxes
[10:02] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:04] <popey> Yes. Good morning.
[10:04] <MooDoo> brobostigon: morning
[10:07] <bashrc> morning
[10:07] <popey> http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/x-series/x140e cute
[10:07] <popey> good for schoolkids
[10:07] <popey> and has touchpoint so yay
[10:08] <jussi> popey: nice!
[10:09] <diddledan> I like that schoolkids are described as "more demanding" than the military
[10:09] <brobostigon> morning MooDoo and bashrc
[10:09] <diddledan> i.e. they bash it harder
[10:13] <czajkowski> aloha
[10:16] <bashrc> Have been messing with a Beaglebone Black.  Debian installs quite easily onto it.
[10:16] <jussi> diddledan: hehe, probably true...
[10:19] <MooDoo> hello czajkowski how are you ?
[10:20] <popey> well that was a fun 10 mins
[10:20] <arsen> m
[10:20] <arsen> hmhmmh
[10:20] <arsen> who works in the canonical london office? :o
[10:20] <popey> postman handed over post then said "ooh, Ubuntu!" after seeing my t-shirt
[10:21] <popey> chatting about linux on the doorstep with the postie ☻
[10:21] <arsen> .. the world is changing :)
[10:21] <popey> "2014 is the year of linux on the doorstep."
[10:21] <MooDoo> did you give him a disk ;)
[10:21] <diddledan> popey: awesome
[10:22] <bashrc> :)
[10:22] <diddledan> speaking of which, I don't actually have any ubuntu aparell
[10:22] <popey> nah, he already has it
[10:25] <MooDoo> diddledan: you need to get on the store quick sharpish ;)
[10:25] <TheOpenSourcerer> czajkowski: <almost feeling sorry for the paddies>Shame about yesterday wasn't it?</almost feeling sorry for the paddies>
[10:26] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: she's almost geeling sorry for the english in the rugby world cup as well ;)
[10:27] <czajkowski> TheOpenSourcerer: well lets see how England does and will they almost beat the Kiwis
[10:30] <TheOpenSourcerer> Some of us have little expectation, although we have, at least, beaten them several times in the last 100 years ;-)
[10:30] <czajkowski> such a cheeky old sod TheOpenSourcerer :)
[10:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> ;-)
[10:31] <czajkowski> hmm I have an very odd bug on 13.10 which I know exists but cannot for the life of me report it via  abug
[10:31] <MooDoo> gone down to £95 that 240gb ssd on amazon
[10:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> :-*
[10:31] <MooDoo> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00BQ8RM1A/ref=gb1h_img_c-1_8827_eca2d0da?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=0M18WASEEBB95G8V025C&pf_rd_i=161428031&pf_rd_p=449478827
[10:31] <czajkowski> when I shut down the machine it flipping well restarts
[10:31] <czajkowski> but not every time
[10:31] <MooDoo> ignore that link
[10:32] <jussi> hrm, ideapad yoga 11s looks an interesting machine...
[10:34] <jussi> ie. http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/yoga/yoga-11s/
[10:35] <jussi> although crappy screen is crappy
[10:36] <popey> updated nexus 7 to 4.4 OTA, seemed to work okay
[10:38] <arsen> think i'm gona go back to a 11inch mac air and dual boot it :/
[10:40] <bigcalm> Yay. Samsung SSD has arrived for my Wife's laptop
[10:41]  * popey notes bigcalm isn't getting bored of using "my wife" yet
[10:41] <bigcalm> :D
[10:41] <Myrtti> was that ssd deal any good?
[10:41] <MooDoo> Myrtti: took it down to about £95
[10:42] <Myrtti> I have no idea if it's a good price or a good device at al
[10:42] <Myrtti> l
[10:42] <bigcalm> popey: without the quotes, that sentence is quite quite different
[10:44] <popey> it has 15 mins left on that deal
[10:46] <bigcalm> Which deal?
[10:47] <SuperMatt> who is it here that works at Queen Mary's?
[10:47] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: cheap SSD black friday deal on amazon
[10:48] <bigcalm> There's 2h 41m remaining on that
[10:51] <MooDoo> Is ubuntu uk having a virtual christmas party? ;) over google hangouts? ;)
[10:51] <bigcalm> Can I justify 96 quid on an SSD I'm unlikely to use any time soon?
[10:52] <MooDoo> bigcalm: no
[10:52] <bigcalm> MooDoo: thank you :)
[10:52] <MooDoo> bigcalm: yw!
[10:53]  * bigcalm closes the window
[10:54] <penguin42> but how much would I pay for the Olympus camera coming up in a few mins?
[10:54] <MooDoo> bigcalm: :)
[10:55] <TwistedLucidity> Anyone got experience using the nvidia NVS 5400M discrete graphics card?
[10:58] <MooDoo> TwistedLucidity: I've fot the 3100M it's not 100% the same, but what's your problem?
[10:58] <TwistedLucidity> Appaling performance (about 1/10th of the integrated Intel). Is this normal?
[10:59] <penguin42> TwistedLucidity: Is this with the Nvidia closed source driver?
[10:59] <TwistedLucidity> penguin24: And Bumblee (I have the correct closed source variant); yes
[11:00] <bigcalm> Am I right in thinking that one shouldn't run Windows XP from an SSD?
[11:00] <penguin42> TwistedLucidity: Hmm I'd expect it to be really fast
[11:00] <Rory> bigcalm: Or een at all
[11:00] <penguin42> hmm, that Olympus is #105 - not quite low enough to make me jump at it, not too bad
[11:00] <TwistedLucidity> penguin24: Even if I boot into Windows 7 the card stinks. nvidia told me it is only for applications can can't do 3D acceleration.
[11:01] <Rory> Oh my key between c and b doesn't work
[11:01] <MooDoo> bigcalm: xp doesn't support trim, so i suspect it's only the lifespan effected.
[11:01] <Rory> That's why this keyboard was in a cupboard
[11:01] <penguin42> TwistedLucidity: That's a bizarre thing to say
[11:01] <popey> Rory: vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv keep those to one side for when you need them
[11:01] <Rory> popey: I'll contact you again if I use them up, thanks
[11:01] <popey> np
[11:01] <penguin42> TwistedLucidity: what machine is this on?
[11:01] <TwistedLucidity> Lenovo ThinkPad T430
[11:02] <Rory> popey: I'd paste them off to the side...
[11:02] <popey> I'd print them out and scan them in when you need them
[11:02] <TwistedLucidity> penguin42: And in Windows, the "Windows Experience" drops from 4.9 to 2.0. I am beginning to wonder if the machine has a fault.
[11:02] <bigcalm> MooDoo: that's what I thought
[11:02] <penguin42> TwistedLucidity: Hmm I've only used the w520 in the past - but it is normally the Nvidia is supposed to be faster
[11:03] <MooDoo> bigcalm: it'll still work though
[11:03] <penguin42> TwistedLucidity: I'd check the bios is up to date - the thinkpad bioses can be a bit random; and you've got it set on 'discrete' rather than optimus? And you've got the correct powerbrick plugged in?
[11:04] <bigcalm> MooDoo: just not for very long :)
[11:04] <TwistedLucidity> penguin42: Yup, on mains power, latest drivers (Windows and Kubuntu). If I try "discrete graphics" in the BIOS the laptop crawls.
[11:04] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:04] <penguin42> TwistedLucidity: I agree that's weird
[11:05] <bigcalm> davmor2: morning
[11:05] <TwistedLucidity> penguin42: Thanks, I'll keep trying to get in contact with Lenovo; might have to try and make a warranty claim I guess.
[11:06] <TwistedLucidity> I wasn't expecting quad GPU, SLI mega-performance; but from the 3D mark I did expect the NVS 5400M to be about twice as fast as the Intel HD 4000
[11:07] <penguin42> TwistedLucidity: As I say, I would try the bios first
[11:07] <TwistedLucidity> The other odd thing (on Windows) is that it won't let me select the graphics card.
[11:07] <TwistedLucidity> penguin42: I'll check that again at lunch. Maybe I missed an update.
[11:08] <davmor2> Holidays == E:TOO_MANY_EMAILS
[11:09] <jussi> davmor2: +++
[11:09] <davmor2> Laney: hey dude did you get a markus in the end?
[11:10] <davmor2> Or did you go for a standing desk instead?
[11:10] <Laney> davmor2: yeah, sure did
[11:10] <Laney> enjoying it very much so far
[11:10] <davmor2> Laney: Yay community rocks at recommending chairs
[11:10] <Laney> I like being able to recline
[11:11] <Laney> standing desk will be at next place I think, only just got this one
[11:12] <Myrtti> they do have an office chair on sale soonish too
[11:12] <Myrtti> well, after noon
[11:12]  * czajkowski hugs davmor2 
[11:12] <Myrtti> 12.30
[11:12] <Myrtti> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005F3VGDW/
[11:12] <davmor2> czajkowski: get off me you don't know where I've been woman :D
[11:14]  * Laney gets an email about a DD being switched to $newcurrentaccount
[11:14] <Laney> this switching service seems to basically work
[11:14] <czajkowski> davmor2: cuddlying a pug :)
[11:15] <mungbean> anyone get to the bottom of chrome's sudden jump in resource requirements?
[11:16] <davmor2> czajkowski: bash is the pug not me honest :P
[11:16] <davmor2> mungbean: it hates you
[11:16] <Laney> bangers and bash
[11:17] <davmor2> mungbean: if it's chrome it might be their implementation of flash
[11:17] <diddledan> I hadn't noticed any change in requirements for chrome
[11:17] <MooDoo> davmor2: is czajkowski being nice?   eewwwwww
[11:17] <davmor2> mungbean: you might find that ad blocking is now disabled too, possibly
[11:18] <Myrtti> mungbean: hasn't it *always* eaten everything you've got
[11:18] <davmor2> MooDoo: I know right it's scary, all because she has a pug, that you wouldn't know about because g+, facebook and twitter just don't give it away :D
[11:19] <davmor2> czajkowski: I'm looking at you for the last comment grrrrrrr embedded pictures ;)
[11:20] <mungbean> suddenly its a lot worse for mem and making my fan go crazy
[11:20] <czajkowski> davmor2: but he's so cute!
[11:20] <MooDoo> davmor2: I don't know czajkowski gets this new job and takes advantage....she needs to stab you and qucik sharpish!
[11:20] <mungbean> few others were complaining the same day
[11:21] <czajkowski> also if anyone would like to learn about MongoDB, there is a free class on it over the coming weeks, self paced and you get  acert at the end of it . https://education.mongodb.com/courses/10gen/M101P/2013_November/about
[11:22] <MooDoo> well that's a cool idea.
[11:22] <MooDoo> well it was until I saw the requirements, I'm not a programmer :)
[11:23] <davmor2> czajkowski: have you ever heard the term pug ugly :P I'll just leave that comment there and move on /me sits on the naughty step sniggering  on a more serious note he did look quite smug in Jons arms :D
[11:23] <czajkowski> MooDoo: self paced why not try :)
[11:23] <czajkowski> davmor2: sit there and be quiet you
[11:23] <czajkowski> also socks are not safe neither are shoe laces from Bash :)
[11:23] <davmor2> MooDoo: and that's how you get czajkowski back to normal :)
[11:25] <MooDoo> czajkowski: ok i've signed up :)
[11:25] <davmor2> czajkowski: that's just pupies but you need to stop him doing that, I recommend a toy on a stick
[11:26] <czajkowski> he has toys, and also taken to dragging his bed from one room to the next.
[11:27] <czajkowski> for a tiny thing he's strong, although need to get his nails trimmed as they clawed me last night when giving him cough stuff
[11:31] <davmor2> czajkowski: you don't clip puppie claws you need to wait till they are 6 months before you start clipping iirc look it up though
[11:31] <czajkowski> :(
[11:31] <diddledan> I prefer kitties :-)
[11:33] <davmor2> czajkowski: iirc it's something to do with the nail bed not being fully formed so you can clip it too short which can in turn infect the nail bed or something like that
[11:34] <MooDoo> I prefer tahr's
[11:34] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: trusty ones?
[11:36] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: depends if you get to know them well ;)
[11:49] <czajkowski> davmor2: interesting
[11:51] <davmor2> MooDoo: I prefer wee timorous beasties with big pointy teeth, it helps if you have a holy hand grenade knocking around for that though :)
[11:53] <MooDoo> davmor2: oh now you're just giving me the spanish inquisition
[11:53] <mungbean> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1150486273/snooperscope-night-vision-for-your-smartphone-ipho?ref=email
[11:53] <mungbean> popey, night vision for you
[11:53] <mungbean> 15 left inthe early bird
[11:53] <davmor2> MooDoo: Ni
[11:53] <mungbean> ..r webcam
[11:56] <mungbean> ah, it uses an app to send wirelessly
[12:02] <mungbean> lol http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1961548517/all-new-adventures-of-morph-from-aardman-animation
[12:06] <penguin42> mungbean: You had to go for one of the rather high end packages to get a morph, which I thought was mean
[12:28] <diddledan> I like that they had chaz boot morph up the .. at the end
[12:28] <diddledan> the video
[12:28] <diddledan> that was actually a really good kickstarter video
[12:33] <penguin42> well, it is their business
[12:34] <diddledan> true
[12:40] <penguin42> I'm sure they could have got the money going to a bank or the like, but it would have cost them more - I guess this is probably costing them what #4k or so?
[12:40] <Myrtti> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/502701513/foldio-the-1st-foldable-studio-for-smartphone <-- considering
[12:41] <popey> not getting a jolla device?
[12:41] <Myrtti> mmm?
[12:41] <popey> sorry, unrelated to that
[12:42] <popey> thats very cool
[12:42] <penguin42> oh, probably nearer #10k I guess, kickstarter fees
[12:58] <TwistedLucidity> penguin42: Looks like you might have been on to something, my current BIOS version is 2.53, the most recent is 2.59. Trying to find detailed change logs to see if any of them fixed nvidia issues.
[12:58] <penguin42> TwistedLucidity: Oh I wouldn't bet on the change logs
[12:58] <popey> "Usually dispatched within 2 to 4 weeks.
[12:58] <popey> oops
[12:58] <penguin42> TwistedLucidity: I used to work in an office with a load of people with w520's - we had about 5 different bios versions and they each had their own quirks, but the newest was best generally
[13:30] <TwistedLucidity> penguin24: Before I make the situation any worse I decided to invoke the warranty. If this card can be made to perform as I expect, this will be an awesome lappy.
[13:45] <TwistedLucidity> New BIOS going in...fingers crossed. I see an evening of fun an games with updates ahead of me! :-S
[13:45] <SuperMatt> http://zed0.co.uk/crossword/
[13:45] <SuperMatt> have we all played this yet?
[13:52] <Myrtti> I have
[13:52] <TwistedLucidity> penguin42: Fixed it. You'll never guess what it was.
[13:54] <TwistedLucidity> penguin42: Someone (not me) had applied the airplane seat power plan. Sauerbraten now thumps along at ~400fps.
[13:54] <TwistedLucidity> Cheers for the help!
[13:55] <diddledan> how does that affect ubuntu?
[14:13] <penguin42> TwistedLucidity: Ah right - yeh so that's why I asked if you had the PSU in
[14:13] <MooDoo> SuperMatt: took me a few moments to work out what the heck was giong on
[14:14] <TwistedLucidity> I did - but the "Airplane " setting seems to impose itself. I'll have to have a fiddle with the power management - clearly it arrived in a slightly cocked manner. What was odd though it that the setting affected Windows and Kubuntu.
[14:14] <SuperMatt> it's truly shocking though when you do
[14:14] <TwistedLucidity> diddledan: Buggered if I know.
[14:15] <TwistedLucidity> diddledan: Some kind of NVRAM setting?
[14:17] <penguin42> diddledan: I think it's a power-limit imposed to limit the required PSU size
[14:18] <arsen> czajkowski  - thanks for the mongoDB link :)
[14:21] <Rory> Anyone in Leeds want to go to this tomorrow? http://www.leedsdevops.org.uk/post/67145731550/meetup-tuesday-26th-november-2013-at-the-central
[14:26] <TwistedLucidity> Whatever way it works, I'm just happy it works! Means I need to keep the Windows partition for some games, but I guess I can bear that until things improve
[14:27] <arsen> also czajkowski - there's a DBA course for sysadmins i guess - https://education.mongodb.com/courses/10gen/M102/2013_December/about
[14:38] <andyc> How come this doesn't compile?  I seem to have messed something up with the initialiser list.. http://ideone.com/9554Kr
[14:39] <czajkowski> arsen: yup but not started yet
[14:40] <arsen> yeah i registered my interest, may as well!
[14:40] <andyc> Oh never mind I didn't realise I had to write a default constructor
[14:43] <andyc> Am I allowed to use this in an initialiser list like that?
[14:44] <andyc> Ooopss sorry every spamming the wrong channel :(
[14:44] <czajkowski> for those in Edinburgh http://www.meetup.com/MongoDB-Edinburgh/events/152065532/
[14:51] <mungbean> gilmore girls is the worst programme ever...
[14:51] <mungbean> i think i hate it as much as eastenders
[14:52] <popey> never seen it
[14:52] <mungbean> it gives me a stomach ache. my wife is watching it but if i want to use the laptop on the sofa i must silently bear it
[14:53] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: http://reviews.cnet.com/best-noise-canceling-headphones/
[14:54] <mungbean> almost time to pick the boy from nursery. days off fly by so fast
[14:54] <mungbean> tgrying to write a christmas list :(
[14:57] <penguin42> mungbean: Chocolate
[14:57] <popey> my amazon wish list is my christmas list
[14:57] <MartijnVdS> same here
[14:57] <MartijnVdS> I maintain it thoughout the year by adding things to it.. sometimes buying a few items
[14:58] <popey> ditto
[14:58] <czajkowski> popey: wish I could get Jon to do that
[14:58] <popey> i always add some random cheap stuff to it too
[14:58] <popey> in case people have a low budget for pressies
[14:58] <czajkowski> trying to do his Christmas shopping is a royal pita, how do you buy the geek that buys stuff anyways :/
[14:58] <popey> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Condiment-Gun-Shaped-Dispenser/dp/B001FRNNNS
[14:58] <popey> i want that, but wifey says she doesn't want it in the house
[14:58] <penguin42> czajkowski: Chocolate
[14:59] <popey> czajkowski: does he have a quadcopter?
[14:59] <czajkowski> penguin42: we have a bookers card
[14:59] <czajkowski> :) we buy lots in :)
[14:59] <czajkowski> popey: he does in fact
[14:59] <czajkowski> never uses it
[14:59] <popey> hah, blimey
[15:00] <czajkowski> he bought one via kickstarter
[15:00] <popey> buy him a donkey for a child in an african poverty stricken country
[15:00] <popey> it'll get way more use
[15:00] <czajkowski> popey: this is true
[15:00] <czajkowski> christmas our anniversay and valentines all within 8 weeks
[15:00] <czajkowski> so I may do a t-shirt hell or think geek order
[15:00] <czajkowski> he loves t-shirts
[15:01] <mungbean> most things i want are not on amazon
[15:01] <popey> threadless are good too
[15:02] <mungbean> shirt.woot.com is good
[15:03] <popey> http://www.threadless.com/catalog/style,tees/type,guys/view,24/order,popular/line,threadless
[15:03] <popey> some great ones there now
[15:03] <popey> http://www.threadless.com/product/5369/I_Have_a_Bike/tab,guys/style,shirt like that
[15:04] <popey> \o/ bacon http://www.threadless.com/product/5004/Magic_Bacon_Ride/tab,guys/style,shirt
[15:04] <mungbean> gonna get fatrher in law this one
[15:04] <mungbean> http://shirt.woot.com/offers/things-waiting-in-the-darkness
[15:05] <mungbean> the models on threadless put me off, i can't get past it
[15:06] <czajkowski> threadless I like a lot but the quality of t-shirts does vairy
[15:06] <czajkowski> if only he liked dr.Who I'd be so sorted to buying stuff
[15:06] <czajkowski> alas he's not :)
[15:07] <MooDoo> czajkowski: that's disgraceful dump him
[15:07] <MooDoo> it's the in thing to do i'm dumping my wife for her best friend as she is a geek and likes sci fi, my wife doesn't lol
[15:10] <MartijnVdS> ಠ_ಠ
[15:14] <GentileBen> ಠ_________________ಠ
[15:17] <MooDoo> I am joking folks lol
[15:18] <penguin42> Riiiiggghhht
[15:22] <GentileBen> MooDooBooPooLoo
[15:36] <Seeker`> woo, monty python tickets booked
[15:36] <MartijnVdS> Seeker`: how? they were sold out in 40 seconds
[15:37] <Seeker`> MartijnVdS: the first date was sold out in 40 seconds
[15:37] <Seeker`> they added another 4
[15:37] <Seeker`> and I actually booked them around 1130, but I've only just got round to IRC / just recieved the confirmtation email
[15:39] <Seeker`> by the time I got to the front of the online queue, almost all of the 5 dates had sold out
[15:52] <bigcalm> davmor2: new gpg key ask I didn't have a backup to restore from after my SSD died
[15:53] <bigcalm> s/ask/as
[15:53] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: ouch
[15:53] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: I've learnt from my ways
[15:53] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: you could ask the NSA for a copy
[15:53] <dvrr> haiiiiiiiiiii
[15:53] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: Doh, why didn't I think of that?
[15:54] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: about to make a truecrypt usb flash drive of my keys that will live in the safe
[15:55] <bigcalm> Humm. I wonder which is a more lasting format: CD/DVD or USB flash drive
[15:56] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: either way, refresh every few years
[15:56] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: so put it in your google calendar ;)
[15:56] <penguin42> bigcalm: Well I have a 17year old CD I can read - but I don't know if a modern CD would last that long
[15:56] <bigcalm> Both physically and likely to be compatible with systems in the future
[15:56] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: CDs are on the way out though, for PCs
[15:56] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: USB will be around for a while
[15:57] <bigcalm> I guess refreshing is the way to go
[15:57] <bigcalm> And I agree about lack of optical drives in devices doesn't give it a long future
[16:14] <diddledan> truecrypt it then put it on the cloud
[16:14] <diddledan> just hope it never rains
[16:23] <Seeker`> MartijnVdS: friend just tried to buy some tickets, only the £ 495 meet+greet ones left
[16:46] <penguin42> Seeker`: He could try and haggle....
[16:58] <shauno> I just found a server called spongebob :/
[16:58] <shauno> bah, that wasn't meant to go here
[16:59] <TheOpenSourcerer> So where's squarepants then?
[17:06] <shauno> heh, it's there too
[17:07] <shauno> but I was just mashing up/enter trying to reconnect.  finally figured out my mifi was being dodgy because I forgot to plug it in, so the wee battery was wheezing
[17:53] <Myrtti> tempted to get the Morphy Richards multicooker
[17:54] <mungbean> i used to watch monty python as a kid, but the reunion fills me with meh
[17:55] <popey> ditto
[17:55] <popey> I'd rather re-listen to their old stuff
[17:56] <mungbean> it'll be much the same i guess
[17:56] <mungbean> nostalgia pays
[17:56] <arsen> i'm keen, what if it's good? :)
[17:56] <penguin42> then there's youtube
[17:57] <daftykins> my my, being asked to find a decent ultrabook in black for ~£600 is tough
[17:58]  * penguin42 hands daftykins a pot of black paint
[17:58] <penguin42> daftykins: What are your criteria for decent?
[17:58] <daftykins> at least an intel i5, preferably greater than 4GB RAM although it looks like it won't happen, plus an SSD or a large HDD with small SSD cache drive combo
[17:59] <daftykins> few manufacturers have even moved to Haswell so far
[17:59] <penguin42> daftykins: http://www.amazon.co.uk/ATIV-Book-Lite-Quad-Core-NP905S3G-K02UK/dp/B00G3YIJXC/ref=sr_1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1385402348&sr=1-2&keywords=samsung+ativ+book ?
[18:00] <daftykins> yeah those are the ones i'm avoiding, as the "quad-core" processor is some netbook-esque AMD APU as best i can tell
[18:00] <arsen> i played with someone's toshiba one last night, was nice.
[18:00] <arsen> equally i've had my hands on a fujitsu one which claims to be the thinnest or something.
[18:00] <daftykins> arsen: AMD APU jobby?
[18:00] <arsen> that was very nice.
[18:01] <penguin42> daftykins: Hmm yeh it's only the none 'lite' ones that are a better CPU
[18:02] <daftykins> *nod*
[18:03] <arsen> http://www.toshiba.co.uk/laptops/business-computing/ultrabook/
[18:03] <arsen> it looked like that, i cnat find the spec tho. i'm more saying that i picked it up and it was surprisingly light, rather than recommending it :P
[18:03] <daftykins> :)
[18:03] <arsen> if it were me, £600 is a refurbed mac air :p
[18:04] <penguin42> daftykins: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pavilion-14-b107sa-i5-3337U-Processor-Windows/dp/B00B65PTGI/ref=sr_1_23?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1385402553&sr=1-23&keywords=ultrabook  ?
[18:04] <penguin42> not that ultra though from the shape
[18:04] <arsen> seen that website about laptop failure statistics?
[18:04] <daftykins> it doesn't look too bad!
[18:04] <mungbean> popey: Myrtti what's the name of those special flight socks please?
[18:04] <daftykins> penguin42: good find :)
[18:04] <arsen> 24% of HP laptops fail inside of 3 years i think.
[18:04] <Myrtti> mungbean: nabee
[18:04] <mungbean> thanks :D
[18:05] <daftykins> although "dispatched within 1 to 2 months" - doh!
[18:05] <arsen> http://www.statisticbrain.com/laptop-malfunction-rates/
[18:05] <daftykins> haha ouch
[18:05]  * penguin42 would like an 'itsfailed' site where you can log when you buy something and when it fails
[18:05] <arsen> i'd be buying asus/tosh/sony/apple personally :P
[18:06] <daftykins> yeah if only i could find something apt
[18:06] <daftykins> this is for the boss' kid who wants something matte black ideally ;/
[18:06] <arsen> what's the requirements?
[18:06] <arsen> so form over function :D
[18:06] <daftykins> seems that way - he's got a chunky Sony at the moment
[18:07] <daftykins> with an SSD and RAM upgrade in it it would probably be fine, but it's looking likely he's after something that looks modern
[18:08] <arsen> http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-IdeaPad-S500-Touch-59372927-Ultrabook.101433.0.html
[18:08] <arsen> i really wish they wouldnt stick stickers on laptops in the inside, it looks so cheap
[18:10] <penguin42> arsen: Curious that the graphic and numbers don't match on that failure stats page
[18:11] <penguin42> arsen: The asus blob is for 12% but the table says 15.6
[18:11] <arsen> weird. yeah i see.
[18:12] <arsen> daftykins  - matt black, modern and well rated - http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/thinkpad/x-series/x1-carbon/
[18:12] <daftykins> haha yeah, doesn't meet the £6-700 target sadly
[18:13] <arsen> gona struggle with SSD/lots of ram for that budget, especially if choosey about appearance.
[18:13] <daftykins> http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/ideapad/u-series/u330-touch/
[18:13] <daftykins> ooh hello
[18:13] <daftykins> how have i not seen this one before
[18:14] <penguin42> that does fit - bit low res, but does fit the price
[18:14] <daftykins> yeah nasty ol' 1366 - i figure you'll only get a full HD panel in something premium
[18:15] <arsen> played any games recently daftykins ?
[18:15] <daftykins> mostly playing GTA V with friends on the 360 lately
[18:16] <arsen> dare i suggest it: http://store.apple.com/uk/product/FD711B/A/refurbished-116-inch-macbook-air-13ghz-dual-core-intel-core-i5
[18:16] <daftykins> apparently he doesn't want Apple :o i was shocked
[18:17] <arsen> if its me, i'd go lenovo if not apple, and nothing else :/ not a huge fan of laptops so i'm picky.
[18:17] <MartijnVdS> the Dell developer edition Ubuntu laptops ♥
[18:18] <arsen> yeah encourage ubuntu :D
[18:18] <arsen> time to cycle home. :)
[18:18] <daftykins> XD
[18:18] <daftykins> \o
[18:19] <daftykins> oh wow, that Lenovo Ideapad U330 Touch is £556 excluding VAT
[18:19] <daftykins> that gives room for an SSD and RAM upgrade mayhaps
[18:22] <penguin42> oh you didn't say you were cheating by going for ex-vat
[18:22] <daftykins> :D
[18:22] <daftykins> \o/
[18:29] <popey> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=346134.msg3709913#msg3709913
[18:29] <popey> golly
[18:31] <MartijnVdS> whoa
[18:32] <daftykins> but what's it earning? :)
[18:32] <MartijnVdS> bitcoins 8-)
[18:32] <daftykins> in value terms
[18:33] <penguin42> popey: Serious rack-pr0n - the cabling is a bit wacky
[18:34] <penguin42> and what - 3x3 phase/rack - although can't quite tell current
[18:41] <diddledan> it almost sounds fake
[18:42] <diddledan> but.. these chinese, you can't trust them to fabricate anything convincingly, so it might just be real!
[18:42] <ali1234> daftykins: about $15,000 per day
[18:42] <diddledan> ouch
[18:42] <daftykins> which dollar?
[18:42] <ali1234> USD
[18:42] <daftykins> crikey
[18:43] <diddledan> per DAY?!
[18:43] <diddledan> I wonder how much their running and startup costs come to
[18:43] <daftykins> my thoughts exactly
[18:44] <ali1234> one block found = $15,000
[18:44] <ali1234> the whole network is minting about $2M worth of bitcoins every day
[18:44] <ali1234> asicminer funded their startup by allowing people to invest
[18:45] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: wasn't asicminer a scam company that took the money AND didn't send the ASICs?
[18:45] <ali1234> no, that was butterfly labs
[18:46] <ali1234> anyone else think it's funny how all the bitcoin scams come out of USA, while all the ones that are real come out of china and russia
[18:50] <daftykins> :D
[18:54] <diddledan> that's because the americans haven't got jobs so they want the quickcash whereas the chinese and russians realised that the real con is to go long-term and pump+dump the value of the BTC :-p
[18:54] <diddledan> it's like a stock market scam
[18:54]  * MartijnVdS is waiting for the big drop
[18:59] <Myrtti> for Plex users, their Android app has a sale, it's on at £1.23 now in Google Play
[19:01] <diddledan> what's the app do?
[19:01] <diddledan> I know plex on the pc side
[19:01] <Myrtti> acts as an Android remote control and player
[19:01] <diddledan> aah
[19:05] <daftykins> wow i just had a "wtf" moment going to dial a # on my Nexus 4 for the first time since the KitKat update
[19:05] <daftykins> i had no idea what i was staring at :D
[19:05] <daftykins> kinda cool it resolving numbers to companies and that now though
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: it does it the other way too
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: if a company calls you, and that company has a Google profile with their number on it, you'll see their name instead of just the number
[19:07] <diddledan> that's useful. or rather it would be if the CLID couldn't be spoofed
[19:07] <daftykins> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00FSBF0K6?m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&tag=iduk-21
[19:07] <daftykins> this appears to be quite the winner so far
[19:08] <diddledan> it's nice to get a human readable name instead of just a random number, but you still have the issue with number-spoofing
[19:08] <daftykins> ja
[19:08] <diddledan> daftykins: sweet discount
[19:08] <daftykins> huh?
[19:09] <diddledan> down from £799.99 to a measly £799.95
[19:09] <daftykins> £670 delivered to Guernsey :O
[19:09] <diddledan> that's wow
[19:09] <daftykins> :)
[19:09] <diddledan> meh, you're looking without the vat
[19:09] <diddledan> damn foreigners
[19:09] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: have him order it for you ;)
[19:09] <daftykins> who?
[19:09] <diddledan> "him"
[19:10] <MartijnVdS> uh wait
[19:10] <daftykins> who is him :(
[19:10] <diddledan> THE "him"
[19:10] <MartijnVdS> I'm confused
[19:10] <daftykins> i'm the tax dodging islander
[19:10] <MartijnVdS> Which one of ( diddledan, daftykins ) is ordering the laptop
[19:10] <daftykins> :>
[19:10] <diddledan> there is only one "him" and he comes once a year on the 25th
[19:10] <MartijnVdS> and which one is in Guernsey?
[19:10] <daftykins> well i'm shopping for someone right now
[19:10] <daftykins> and i'm the Guern :>
[19:10] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIM_(Finnish_band)
[19:10] <diddledan> daftykins: is the foreigner
[19:11] <diddledan> --:
[19:11] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: order one for diddledan as well then :P
[19:11] <diddledan> lol
[19:11] <daftykins> he'd have to pay VAT at the post office :(
[19:11] <diddledan> not if you give it to me as a gift
[19:11] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: just bring it on your next "business trip" to the UK
[19:11] <MartijnVdS> the mainland*
[19:12] <MartijnVdS> "Yeah that's my laptop"
[19:12] <shauno> *the motherland
[19:12] <daftykins> dem mainlanders
[19:12] <MartijnVdS> DER HEIMAT
[19:12] <diddledan> <insert nasty-party joke here>
[19:13] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: they call it that now? The "nasty-party"?
[19:13] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: I do to get around draconian bots that insist that nazi is a bad word
[19:13] <diddledan> namely over on a different server
[19:14] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: Well, anti-ukipers could use it too
[19:14] <diddledan> eww @ ukid
[19:14] <diddledan> evil evil people them
[19:15] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: "nasty party, that"
[19:16] <diddledan> I like how a known racist in america found out he's part african
[19:16] <daftykins> hehehe
[19:16] <MartijnVdS> oops!
[19:17] <MartijnVdS> well, self-hatred is a thing
[19:17] <diddledan> as in too much african that his own dna purity scale would exclude him
[19:17] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: hitler didn't have blue eyes and blonde hair either
[19:17] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: bleach
[19:18] <daftykins> gotta run, time for food and what not
[19:18] <daftykins> ta-ra \o
[19:18] <MartijnVdS> \o
[19:37] <spiritech> hi. i am having problems with the mini.iso netinstall. the installation was complete, however when i try to boot the hdd nothing happens. the only way i can get it to boot is by booting from the usb stick which in turn boots the hdd.
[19:38] <MartijnVdS> spiritech: sounds like the bootloader never got installed (correctly)
[19:38] <MartijnVdS> spiritech: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Boot-Repair looks like it might help solve the problem
[19:38] <spiritech> can i fix this at this stage, or do i have to do a new install.
[19:39] <spiritech> could it be something to do with the grub being in the wrong place?
[19:39] <spiritech> i will have a look at your link now.
[19:39] <MartijnVdS> possibly. Or it could be that your machine is set to boot from UEFI only, and Ubuntu was installed in a non-UEFI way (or the other way around, but that's rarer)
[19:42] <directhex> i met something horrifying yesterday
[19:42] <directhex> you know how there's "CSM", which is a compatibility layer for UEFI, allowing a UEFI motherboard to boot BIOS-style for legacy OSes?
[19:42] <spiritech> something must have changed on the usb, as i can no longer run the net install process.
[19:43] <MartijnVdS> directhex: I've heard of something like that
[19:43] <MartijnVdS> spiritech: that might be where it installed the bootloader then 8-)
[19:44] <spiritech> can i fix that manually?
[19:44] <MartijnVdS> uhh
[19:44] <directhex> MartijnVdS, THE REVERSE EXISTS
[19:44] <MartijnVdS> directhex: an UEFI environment that boots from a BIOS-style bootsector?
[19:44] <spiritech> by moving the files. or is it more complex than that?
[19:44] <MartijnVdS> directhex: why am I not surprised
[19:45] <directhex> MartijnVdS, evil from the nether realm, allowing a BIOS motherboard to boot UEFI-only boot loaders and OSes.
[19:45] <diddledan> it was developed by intel, directhex
[19:45] <MartijnVdS> spiritech: re-create the boot CD, or do whatever that web page suggests :)
[19:45] <MartijnVdS> directhex: what's it called? :)
[19:45] <spiritech> ok.
[19:46] <directhex> MartijnVdS, it's a per-vendor thing. Gigabyte calls it "Hybrid EFI Technology"
[19:46] <spiritech> does anyone know when ubuntu 13.10 will be added to Unetbootin list?
[19:46] <diddledan> directhex: it's based on tianocore
[19:47] <directhex> diddledan, part of it.
[19:47] <spiritech> or is there a way i can add it myself. by giving Unetbootin the url?
[19:47] <directhex> diddledan, it's still just an Award 6.00 BIOS underneath
[19:47] <diddledan> directhex: yes, the tianocore is designed to run that way
[19:47] <directhex> diddledan, not really
[19:51] <diddledan> sorry, I appear to be wrong - it's based on the subsection of tianocore called "duet" or "DuetPkg"
[19:51] <directhex> yep
[19:51] <directhex> it's an EFI emulator, running on top of 16-bit Award BIOS
[19:52] <diddledan> yeah, I've got it on my desktop (which I rarely use)
[19:52]  * MartijnVdS tries to remember when the first "configurable" BIOSes came out
[19:52] <MartijnVdS> our XT clone didn't have it
[19:52] <MartijnVdS> our 486 did
[19:52] <diddledan> in the form of Gigabyte's HybridEFI
[19:52] <MartijnVdS> my 386 had 1 or 2 options to configure
[19:52] <directhex> diddledan, my dad's PC was bricked. turns out Hybrid EFI does *NOT* like EFI-booted Windows 7 trying to hibernate
[19:53] <penguin42> how bricked?
[19:53] <directhex> appeared to be totally bricked (no POST at all). but resetting the CMOS resurrected it
[19:53] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: my Amstrad PC1512 had a form of configuration backed up by a 4xAA battery - it was stored in NVRAM - so when the battery died then the settings were wiped
[19:54] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: yeah, the XT did have some memory -- it kept the time
[19:54] <directhex> diddledan, which board is it?
[19:54] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: but it didn't have a "Press DEL to configure"-like screens (yet)
[19:54] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: then again, it only had 640kb RAM ;)
[19:54] <diddledan> directhex: FXA990-UD5 I seem to recall
[19:55] <directhex> diddledan, i discovered that gigabyte had posted a "beta" bios update which completely replaces the Award BIOS w/ Hybrid evil, with a full native UEFI
[19:55] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: right, the NVRAM needed to be set in the DOS
[19:55] <diddledan> directhex: really?
[19:55] <MartijnVdS> directhex: gigabyte is a bit weird like that
[19:55] <diddledan> directhex: that sounds interesting
[19:56] <penguin42> directhex: Interesting, that's pretty nasty
[19:56] <MartijnVdS> I have this: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4514#ov
[19:56] <MartijnVdS> (and I boot it fully UEFI)
[19:56] <directhex> diddledan, yes, really
[19:56] <diddledan> does it work? :-p
[19:56] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: did freedos on floppy/cd/usb key cover it?
[19:57] <directhex> MartijnVdS, 8-series chipsets should all have real UEFI. it's the 6 and 7 series ones with "touchBIOS" which use the hybrid nonsense
[19:57] <directhex> diddledan, still won't suspend, but just throws an error on resume rather than bricking. IMPROVEMENT!
[19:57] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: uh, huh?
[19:57]  * MartijnVdS has USB problems :(
[19:57] <diddledan> hmm
[19:57] <directhex> diddledan, also, full GUI/clicky setup, not ye olde blue and white
[19:57] <MartijnVdS> All my USB ports are USB3 ports, and plugging in an USB2 3G modem breaks because some kind of timeout
[19:58] <directhex> i have a gigabyte board in my PC, but it's too old for EFI of any kind
[19:58] <diddledan> where do I find this piece of awesomeness?
[19:58] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: then don't do that :P
[19:58] <MartijnVdS> directhex: Mine has the full GUI setup. Until you click somewhere it doesn't like, then it reverts to blue/white BIOS mode ;)
[19:58] <directhex> diddledan, as far as i can tell, the limiting factor is the size of the BIOS chips on the board. if they're not 4MB, too small.
[19:58] <diddledan> I think mine are 8MB
[19:58] <directhex> http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3863#bios
[20:00] <directhex> diddledan, looks like the FXA990-UD5 rev3 is natively UEFI, and the FXA990-UD5 rev1 is hybrid only with no update to UEFI-ify it
[20:01] <diddledan> directhex: it's the version 1 that I've got :-(
[20:02] <MartijnVdS> UEFIsh
[20:03] <directhex> diddledan, i think it must be an AMD 990FX + issue - ALL the boards have a rev1 or rev3, with rev3 as natively UEFI and rev1 as BIOS/hybrid
[20:05] <diddledan> yeah, that sucks
[20:07] <directhex> looks like only a subset of intel chipsets got conversions
[20:07] <directhex> not all intels, and no amds
[20:13] <diddledan> I can't see any hardware differences in the spec of the two boards
[20:17] <directhex> diddledan, something you can't see? like... lack of EFI versions of various firmwares?
[20:17] <directhex> no idea
[20:18] <MartijnVdS> a slightly larger flash chip? they don't tend to put that in bios specs..
[20:19] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: I think that can be the only difference
[20:19] <diddledan> the rev3 bios downloads are twice the size of the rev1
[20:19] <diddledan> 2.88MB vs 1.12MB
[20:20] <diddledan> sorry, 1.18MB (what's 600KB between friends?!)
[20:20] <diddledan> nope, 60KB
[20:20] <MartijnVdS> 2.88MB? ED 3.5" disks? :)
[20:20] <diddledan> lol
[20:21] <diddledan> meh, I can't count
[20:21] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: ls -h ;)
[20:21] <diddledan> lol
[20:22] <diddledan> ls -h is awesome
[20:24] <shauno> ls --si is awkward :/
[20:25] <diddledan> ls: illegal option -- -
[20:25] <MartijnVdS> shauno: 1000 instead of 1024?
[20:25] <shauno> yeah
[20:26] <diddledan> -s = sort by size, -i = print inode number
[20:26] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: --si vs -si
[20:26] <diddledan> --si doens't work
[20:27] <shauno> if '-' is an illegal option, you don't have longopts, hence you're using bsd's ls
[20:27] <MartijnVdS> bsd ls is evil
[20:27] <diddledan> shauno: you should know I'm using a mac
[20:27] <MartijnVdS> "ls *.c -la" vs "ls -la *.c"
[20:27] <MartijnVdS> BSD find is also evil
[20:27] <MartijnVdS> "find -name blah" errors, you HAVE to say "find . -name blah"
[20:28] <shauno> yeah, it always tells me off for trying to put -maxdepth in the wrong place.  positional something something monkey
[20:28] <MartijnVdS> it knows what you want/mean -- it's there's no ambiguity
[20:29] <MartijnVdS> but let's NOT do it anyway
[20:29] <diddledan> bsd sucks for not just using gnu
[20:29] <shauno> although, one thing I do love about BSD .. the manpages never tell you to do 'info foo invocation'
[20:30] <diddledan> <3
[20:30] <diddledan> yeah, I never worked out how to work info
[20:30] <diddledan> it always seemed to load the same page no matter what I typed on the CLI
[20:31] <shauno> I'm fairly convinced you're not meant to.  it feels like someone well placed really should have been working for oreilly instead
[20:35] <diddledan> does that mean that o'reilly books are impossible to read, too?!
[20:42] <shauno> it's a shame old games are still iffy.  if someone would mate retropie & archive.org I'd mail them hugs
[20:44] <ali1234> we need to stamp out info
[20:44] <ali1234> it's blatantly rubbish
[20:44] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: convince GNU...
[20:45] <MartijnVdS> Debian has been trying for years
[20:51] <diddledan> I think part of the problem is the GNU project insist everything MUST be GPL licensed so they invent replacements for perfectly good things just becasue they're not licensed under the GPL
[20:51] <shauno> s/problem/point/ ?
[20:52] <diddledan> s/GNU project/dick stallman/ ?
[20:52] <MartijnVdS> shauno: they don't accept licenses with *more* freedoms than GPL
[20:52] <diddledan> I've heard it argued, impressively, that the BSD license is better for opensource
[20:53] <MartijnVdS> BSD or MIT
[20:53] <diddledan> yeah, they're very similar
[20:53] <diddledan> I think the only difference is the attribution restrictions on which entity you're not allowed to claim affiliation with
[20:53] <shauno> sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.  it's never as clear cut as those with vested interests pretend
[20:54] <diddledan> i.e. berkeley uni vs massechusets (sp?) uni
[20:55] <diddledan> meh, let's move MIT to michigan, I can spell that
[20:55] <shauno> eg, forcing linksys down a path where they had to let you all in was quite handy.  BSD wouldn't have done that
[20:55] <diddledan> yes, that was pretty useful
[20:59] <shauno> the bsd licence is really, really useful for reference implementations though. eg, half the world taking pointers form bsd's network stack, the jpeg licence (which apparently isn't bsd, but I can't tell the difference ..)
[20:59] <diddledan> I just spotted a GLSA (Gentoo security) that announced an issue in fcron of being susceptible to symlink attacks (I presume that's replacing a file with a symlink to gain access to what you're not allowed) - surely those sort of attacks should be prevented by the kernel, not each individual app?
[21:00] <diddledan> half the world? I thought the whole world was running off bsd network stack
[21:00] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: partially
[21:00] <diddledan> certainly all windows are and all os xs are
[21:02] <shauno> I'm not actually sure windows still are.  but they certainly spread it far and wide enough that it'd be basically impossible to try "our tcp implementation is *almost* compatible with yours" now
[21:03] <shauno> (as much as Apple try .. heh)
[21:03] <diddledan> almost?
[21:04] <diddledan> I read that argument as "it's impossible to argue that we're not good enough"
[21:04] <diddledan> it's either that or "it's impossible to argue that we will ever be good enough"
[21:04] <shauno> I think that just depends how big & ugly you are.  look at the "browser wars".  you can get a long way with being 'almost' compatible with each other
[21:33] <penguin42> diddledan: Yes the kernel will stop obvious symlink problems, it's the more subtle problems - e.g. if you look at it once and then look again or something like that - do you have a link to the advisory?
[21:49] <diddledan> penguin42: http://www.gentoo.org/security/en/glsa/glsa-201311-16.xml
[21:49] <penguin42> diddledan: Hmm it doesn't say much
[21:50] <shauno> http://www.shmoo.com/mail/bugtraq/feb01/msg00271.shtml  seems like interesting reading
[21:50] <shauno> ah, nm, just noticed the date :)
[21:51] <diddledan> even a "race condition" should be handled by the kernel, surely? i.e. my pseudo code: open file, kernel prevents file change, check file isn't a symlink, read file, close file
[21:51] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: no, it can't
[21:51] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: because then the kernel would have to analyze *every* file access to see if something else tried to look at the symlink earlier
[21:51] <MartijnVdS> the program should use atomic replace/link creation functions
[21:51] <diddledan> isn't that what file locks are for, i.e. something the kernel is supposed to support?!
[21:51] <MartijnVdS> and proper randomness
[21:52] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: nah, locks are advisory, not forced
[21:52] <penguin42> diddledan: So the classic examples are you figure out that something will read a file with a given name, you can put anything you like in that file, so it seems safe because it only reads what you put there - but if you put a symlink at there to something else, and it reads that as root then it lets you read an arbitrary file
[21:52] <MartijnVdS> so it's either "breaking POSIX" or "take care when writing programs with temp files"
[21:53] <diddledan> so it's "broken by design" IMO
[21:53] <MartijnVdS> possibly, but it prevents the "windows failure mode" of not being able to remove/replace a file when something has it open
[21:54] <penguin42> diddledan: Yeh I mean it's just a bug where it's accessing a file in some way without checking it by the sounds of it
[21:55] <penguin42> diddledan: In a way symlinks break a lot of basic assumptions that you might reasonably make, so it means you have to think a lot more
[21:55] <diddledan> the kernel or the libc should give you some sugar surely tho?
[21:55] <MartijnVdS> if programs use modern APIs things will work -- the most modern versions of libc have functions that do The Right Thing, and things that can't work reliably are officially discouraged
[21:56] <diddledan> aaha
[21:56] <penguin42> diddledan: Well you can use 'stat' to figure out if you're dealing with a symlink
[21:56] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: sure, but that's not atomic
[21:56] <penguin42> yep
[21:56] <diddledan> surely stat will suffer the same problem?
[21:56] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: you can stat(), then open.. but in the meantime, someone could replace the file with a link
[21:57] <diddledan> i.e. stat file <-- not a symlink, someone nasty replaces file, open file <-- symlink
[21:57] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: there are flags for "open()" that prevent that
[21:58] <penguin42> ah yeh O_NOFOLLOW
[21:58] <diddledan> and this is why concurrency makes clever peoples' brains melt :-p
[21:58] <shauno> can't you stat a filehandle?
[21:58] <MartijnVdS> shauno: you can, but then you'd have to open it first
[21:58] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Which you can now do with O_PATH
[21:58] <MartijnVdS> shauno: fstat
[21:59] <shauno> right, but opening it isn't the issue.  it's trusting what you've opened
[21:59] <MartijnVdS> true
[21:59] <shauno> so open it, run your sanity check against the filehandle rather than the file, and continue if they pass.  anything that happens on disk after the open doesn't matter
[22:01] <diddledan> as a random aside: why can't I get chrome to like bugs.gentoo.org's ssl cert?
[22:01] <MartijnVdS> shauno: that works for reading, but for writing/truncating you might want to check earlier :)
[22:01] <MartijnVdS> O_EXCL etc.
[22:01] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: works for me
[22:01] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: ah, CACert
[22:02] <diddledan> yeah, I've installed CACert's public key
[22:02] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: it's a CACert certificate, maybe you don't trust them?
[22:04] <diddledan> it seems they're using a different intermediary than is listed on cacert.org
[22:05] <diddledan> the cert I installed expires 20 May 2021, but the one that bugs.gentoo.org seems to present expires 28 March 2033
[22:14] <diddledan> https://cacert.org works fine, but https://bugs.gentoo.org gives me a cert validation error
[22:14] <diddledan> i.e. the red "get me out of here" page
[22:15] <popey> https://bugs.gentoo.org/ doesnt fail for me
[22:15] <popey> fine in chromium, only fails in ff
[22:15] <diddledan> fails in both chrome and safari for me
[22:18] <diddledan> if it fails in firefox for you, can you get it working at all? because that's where I'm failing - I cannot get it to recognise the chain from cacert.org's root certificate to bugs.gentoo.org's cert
[22:18] <diddledan> the failing node is the class 3 intermediate certificate
[22:21] <Myrtti> has this been here yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMYfkOtYYlg
[22:28] <diddledan> Myrtti: fun
[22:31] <shauno> wow.  imagemagick is *really* slow on the pi
[22:35] <popey> wow, thats great Myrtti
[22:36] <diddledan> shauno: it's not hardware accelerated, that's why
[22:43] <ali1234> wasn't CACert the one that got hacked, and then dropped by mozilla?
[22:44] <ali1234> no apparently not. they've never been included in mozilla
[22:47] <directhex> CAcert isn't included in any major browser, but is in most major linux distros
[22:49] <directhex> CAcert is kinda "free software hippie" in its approach, i.e. it's gratis and volunteery, not based on mailing your passport scans to israel and giving them free reign over your credit card like other much more trustworthy hosts
[22:51] <popey> hmm, lost the battery cover for our virgin media box remote
[22:51] <popey> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=346134.msg3709913#msg3709913
[22:54] <gordonjcp> hm
[22:55] <gordonjcp> I appear to have both gordonjcp@gjcp.net and gordon@gjcp.net registered with CACert, but no idea what the passphrase is
[22:55] <gordonjcp> and I don't recognise any of the security questions
[23:06] <popey> http://www.spacex.com/webcast/
[23:06] <popey> 13 mins till launch
[23:07] <popey> oh, counter stopped?
[23:08] <diddledan> popey:  needs commentary
[23:08] <diddledan> oh dear, it sprung a leak
[23:08] <popey> keeps buffering here
[23:09] <diddledan> do we know what the payload is?
[23:10] <diddledan> aah, SES 8
[23:10] <popey> some random satellite
[23:13] <directhex> SES has satellites worldwide, hard to say where this'll end up broadcasting
[23:14] <diddledan> the info in the top post says "The SES-8 telecommunications satellite is an Orbital Sciences GEOStar-2 spacecraft that will provide communications coverage of the South Asia and Asia Pacific regions. This hybrid Ku- and Ka-band spacecraft weighs 3,138 kg (6,918 lbs) at launch."
[23:14] <penguin42> I thought this was their first attempt at a geostationary
[23:14] <diddledan> "SES-8 will be SpaceX’s first launch to a geostationary transfer orbit – 80,000 km from Earth – and most challenging mission to date. Launch window opens at 5:37pm EST on Monday."
[23:15] <diddledan> nice that it's a commercial entity doing it rather than a national body
[23:21] <shauno> I just hope it doesn't have to be either/or.  handing off the 'haulage' so NASA can worry about getting me to Mars - awesome.  handing it over so they can quit paying NASA .. less awesome
[23:29] <diddledan> oh dear
[23:29] <diddledan> that doesn't sound healthy
[23:29] <diddledan> "I can't work out what it started"
[23:30] <diddledan> we're just about to hit scheduled time
[23:30] <diddledan> so we're not three minutes over
[23:30] <diddledan> now*
[23:30] <ali1234> http://time.is/EST
[23:30] <diddledan> ali1234: it's due to fire at 23:30 GMT/UTC
[23:31] <diddledan> it's now 23:31
[23:31] <ali1234> by my clock it's 23:35
[23:31] <ali1234> why is my clock really wrong??
[23:32] <diddledan> Mon Nov 25 23:32:06 GMT 2013
[23:32] <penguin42> you're not running ntp?
[23:32] <ali1234> yeah but why not?
[23:47] <penguin42> ali1234: Is it that you just got too far out, I don't think the daemon will correct a swing bigger than a certain limit?
[23:47] <ali1234> no, for some reason xubuntu doesn't install ntpd
[23:56] <directhex> http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/25/commercial-steambox-prototype/