[00:23] <spencer7x7> hey everyone!
[00:24] <spencer7x7> anyone know how to install Steam on Lubuntu 13.10?
[00:24] <ali1234> same guy?
[00:24] <spencer7x7> sorta im his bro and im helping him
[00:24] <ali1234> well, you need to figure out why it hangs
[00:25] <ali1234> strace will show you what it is doing, but you need to be able to interpret the output
[00:25] <spencer7x7> I dont know, I tried uninstalling it installing it by this method:http://fosshelp.blogspot.com/2013/10/how-to-install-steam-client-on-ubuntu.html
[00:25] <spencer7x7> strace how do you open that?
[00:25] <ali1234> it's a command line program
[00:26] <spencer7x7> so i type in strace steam?
[00:27] <spencer7x7> okay i typed that and i got lots of text
[00:27] <spencer7x7> lemme see how i can post it
[00:28] <ali1234> you need to do: strace -f -e file steam 2>/tmp/strace.log
[00:29] <spencer7x7> okay, now what?
[00:31] <ali1234> now pastebinit /tmp/strace.log
[00:32] <ali1234> then post the url it gives you
[00:33] <spencer7x7> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6487270/
[00:34] <ali1234> heh... massive
[00:36] <ali1234> hmm... what specs does the computer have btw?
[00:36] <ali1234> people usually put lubuntu on low spec machines... maybe it's just not good enough to run steam?
[00:37] <spencer7x7> This has like 512MB of RAM
[00:37] <spencer7x7> and Intel Pentium 4
[00:38] <ali1234> what graphics card?
[00:39] <spencer7x7> how do you check that?
[00:39] <ali1234> lspci | grep VGA
[00:40] <spencer7x7> Intel Corporation 82865G Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 02)
[00:41]  * penguin42 notes that strace has a SIGTRAP in - very odd
[00:43] <ali1234> yeah i saw that
[00:44] <ali1234> make me think maybe they don't want people debugging the steam binaries :)
[00:44] <ali1234> although it loads up fine here in strace
[00:46] <ali1234> execve("/bin/sed", ["sed", "s/32/64/"], [/* 57 vars */] -> what
[00:47] <spencer7x7> i have no idea what does that mean
[00:47] <penguin42> Asus 4k monitors starting to appear - at just under #3k for 31.5"
[00:47] <daftykins> :D
[00:47] <daftykins> penguin42: i'll have two! ;)
[00:48] <penguin42> ali1234: It's not bothered to show you the whole of the environment
[00:48] <daftykins> lol running Steam on an 865G onboard
[00:48] <ali1234> penguin42: i know, i was more like "why is it even running sed s/32/64/"
[00:48] <penguin42> ali1234: Well that's the way to convert 32 machines into 64....
[00:49] <ali1234> spencer7x7: what does "uname -a" say?
[00:49] <penguin42> ali1234: Is it possible he has a 64bit steam download for his 64bit machine?
[00:49] <penguin42> daftykins: To be fair it is a lot of pixels
[00:50] <ali1234> it's a 32 bit steam according to an older paste
[00:50] <penguin42> ok
[00:50] <penguin42> ali1234: Being P4 I'm wondering if it's missing an instruction extension, one of the SSE...
[00:50] <daftykins> if it's a pentium 4 like he said then it must be 32-bit right
[00:50] <penguin42> there was one gen of 64bit
[00:50] <spencer7x7> i search and the text "uname -a" does not appear
[00:51] <ali1234> it's a command
[00:51] <spencer7x7> oh okay
[00:51] <ali1234> penguin42: yeah i thought that too, but then it should say "SIGILL" not "SIGTRAP"
[00:51] <spencer7x7> Linux Mydim3s 3.11.0-13-generic #20-Ubuntu SMP Wed Oct 23 17:26:33 UTC 2013 i686 i686 i686 GNU/Linux
[00:51] <ali1234> hmm, yes, definitely 32 bit
[00:51] <penguin42> ali1234: Yeh agreed, I'd also expect the SIGILL
[00:52] <ali1234> also it should exit, not just hang
[00:52] <ali1234> all this strace is doing all the standard dpkg stuff that steam does to install it's deps
[00:55] <spencer7x7> so what do we do?
[00:56] <ali1234> this is a hard one
[00:56] <penguin42> ali1234: How about strace attach to the hung thing?
[00:56] <spencer7x7> lemme try
[00:56]  * penguin42 notes Steams hardware requirements just say 512MB RAM/1GHz or faster
[00:57] <ali1234> maybe it's trying to do some network thing?
[00:57] <spencer7x7> he has that
[00:57] <penguin42> is there not some steam specific debug somewhere?
[00:58] <daftykins> it must be querying Valve for client updates no?
[00:58] <daftykins> if it's first run
[00:58] <spencer7x7> just a bootstrap log, but its pretty useless
[00:59] <spencer7x7> all it says is :[2013-11-27 19:28:51] Startup - updater built Nov 25 2013 18:07:05
[00:59] <ali1234> ~/.steam/steam/logs/
[00:59] <ali1234> there is only bootstrap_log.txt, and nothing else?
[01:00] <spencer7x7> yeah
[01:00] <spencer7x7> only bootstrap_log.txt
[01:00] <penguin42> when it's hanging is it eating cpu or disk?
[01:00] <ali1234> the thing is, when you "install" the steam.deb, it really only installs another installer
[01:01] <ali1234> and it looks like the second installer is failing somehow
[01:01] <spencer7x7> hmm weirsd
[01:01] <spencer7x7> and its not eating CPU or RAM
[01:01] <spencer7x7> its just doing nothing
[01:01] <ali1234> then... it's waiting for something
[01:01] <spencer7x7> should i reopen it?
[01:02] <ali1234> just leave it for now
[01:02] <spencer7x7> mkay
[01:02] <ali1234> what processes are actually running?
[01:03] <spencer7x7> lxtask and chrome
[01:04] <ali1234> what does "pgrep steam" say?
[01:04] <ali1234> (open a second terminal)
[01:04] <spencer7x7> 3095
[01:05] <ali1234> try: sudo strace -p3095
[01:05] <ali1234> this will output a lot... or maybe nothing at all
[01:05] <ali1234> but it will most likely say the same thing over and over
[01:05] <penguin42> or be stuck in a select or poll
[01:05] <ali1234> yes
[01:06] <spencer7x7> it says "Process 3095 attached futex(0x96e9b0c, FUTEX_WAIT_PRIVATE, 1, NULL"
[01:06] <penguin42> ah
[01:06] <ali1234> ah?
[01:06] <penguin42> that's difficult to track
[01:06] <ali1234> means nothing to me :)
[01:06] <spencer7x7> brb gotta eat
[01:06] <penguin42> ali1234: It means it's waiting for some other process
[01:06] <ali1234> o_O
[01:07] <ali1234> like, dpkg?
[01:07] <ali1234> AH
[01:07] <ali1234> lubuntu = no consolekit?
[01:07] <penguin42> ali1234: Well it's pretty much impossible to tell at that point
[01:07] <ali1234> it's popping that thing that says "you need to install these dependencies", and that is trying to do consolekit on dbus... and lubuntu doesn't have it
[01:07] <penguin42> yeh waiting on dbus is reasonable
[01:08] <penguin42> dbus-monitor perhaps?
[01:08] <ali1234> so maybe the fix it: sudo apt-get -f install
[01:08] <ali1234> which steam normally does for you, but apparently can't for some reason
[01:10] <daftykins> doesn't the deb just install some dependancies 0o
[01:10] <daftykins> seems a bit of an oversight
[01:11] <ali1234> no if you install it with dpkg
[01:11] <daftykins> oic
[01:11] <ali1234> or maybe gdebi, if you downloaded it manually
[01:11] <daftykins> ah yes, the graphical way is no way :>
[01:11] <ali1234> anyway, steam does check for this and tries to fix it, but maybe it can't in lubuntu
[01:14] <daftykins> you know, if it were me, i'd have just re-run it as root for fun
[01:14] <daftykins> to see if it made any difference XD
[01:15] <ali1234> i haven't done that in years :)
[01:15] <daftykins> which i know is totally stupid
[01:15] <ali1234> not since i used gentoo probably
[01:15] <daftykins> the masochists distro
[01:15] <ali1234> no, that's suse
[01:16] <daftykins> how is suse worse 0o
[01:16] <ali1234> yast.
[01:16] <daftykins> hateful package management?
[01:16] <ali1234> yast isn't just a package manager
[01:16] <ali1234> it configures everything on the whole system. and if you don't use it, it eats your config files
[01:17]  * penguin42 had this laptop running opensuse for a while - it wasn't THAT bad
[01:17] <daftykins> :D
[01:17] <ali1234> opensuse fixed a lot of the problems with it. but last time i used suse was like... 2002
[01:17] <ali1234> i have the boxed edition somewhere still
[01:17] <ali1234> 8 CDs and 3 manuals
[01:18] <penguin42> yeh I've got a SuSE for Alpha box set from about 2000ish
[01:19] <daftykins> lol 3 manuals, ouch
[01:20] <ali1234> anyway gentoo seemed like an improvement at the time, due to it's hands-off approach to letting you configure everything the way you want
[01:20] <spencer7x7> k back
[01:20] <ali1234> spencer7x7: try this: sudo apt-get -f install
[01:20] <ali1234> er, kill steam first
[01:22] <spencer7x7> does the fact that is says "The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:" have anything to do with it?
[01:22] <ali1234> no
[01:22] <spencer7x7> and something about autoremove
[01:22] <ali1234> no, that's fine
[01:23] <spencer7x7> okay now what
[01:23] <ali1234> anything else?
[01:23] <spencer7x7> cause other than that text, that command did nothing
[01:23] <daftykins> in your situation since nothing is happening, it'd be more likely due to missing packages rather than having something extra :>
[01:23] <spencer7x7> maybe Lubuntu has some packages Ubuntu doesnt have?
[01:24] <ali1234> yes, quite possibly
[01:24] <ali1234> but the steam.deb doesn't have a dependency on them, so there's no way to know what they might be
[01:24] <daftykins> maybe someone has them written up somewhere?
[01:24] <ali1234> no, tried googling
[01:25] <ali1234> the only thing that came up was xfonts-scalable but that didn't help
[01:25] <penguin42> could install ubuntu-desktop if you have the space
[01:25] <penguin42>  (don't need to use it)
[01:26] <ali1234> well all i can think of is doing a full strace to find what it's waiting on
[01:26] <daftykins> spencer7x7: what games do you really hope to run on that ancient machine anyway? :D
[01:26] <daftykins> i mean is it even worth it?
[01:27] <spencer7x7> i dunno its my bros idea
[01:27] <spencer7x7> hey im the first guy who asked mydim3
[01:27] <spencer7x7> and i think this computer can run team forrtress
[01:29] <daftykins> ah yeah
[01:29] <daftykins> as in classic
[01:29] <spencer7x7> no i mean the 2nd
[01:30] <spencer7x7> i think it can run it
[01:30] <spencer7x7> this pos is not that bad
[01:31] <ali1234> spencer7x7: so, we're going to do this the hard way i guess. open two terminals, kill steam if it's running, then do: strace -f steam 2>/tmp/steam.log
[01:31] <daftykins> onboard 865 graphics? hmm i really don't think so
[01:31] <ali1234> then in the other terminal do: tail -f /tmp/steam.log
[01:32] <ali1234> wait until it starts outputing the same thing over and over (that thing about FUTEX probably) and then kill the strace in the first terminal
[01:32] <ali1234> then check how big the log file is
[01:33] <spencer7x7> 1st terminal just stopped
[01:33] <ali1234> yeah it will
[01:33] <ali1234> it shouldn't output much of anything at all
[01:34] <ali1234> everything should go to the second one
[01:34] <spencer7x7> 2nd one is put out some text and just got stuck
[01:34] <ali1234> what's the last thing it said on the second?
[01:34] <spencer7x7> exited with 0
[01:34] <ali1234> full line?
[01:35] <spencer7x7> +++ exited with 0 +++
[01:35] <ali1234> first terminal is still running?
[01:35] <spencer7x7> yeah
[01:35] <ali1234> did you put -f?
[01:36] <spencer7x7> its not throwing new text
[01:36] <spencer7x7> yes
[01:36] <spencer7x7> i put -f
[01:36] <ali1234> did you kill steam before doing this?
[01:36] <spencer7x7> yes
[01:37] <ali1234> hmm
[01:37] <ali1234> how big is the /tmp/steam.log?
[01:37] <spencer7x7> lemme see
[01:37] <spencer7x7> wheres the log file?
[01:37] <spencer7x7> sorry for the lame question
[01:38] <ali1234> /tmp/
[01:38] <spencer7x7> hmm, its pretty big
[01:39] <spencer7x7> like 45000+ lines
[01:39] <ali1234> how many MB is it?
[01:39] <spencer7x7> 3.9
[01:40] <ali1234> ok, do this: tail -n 2000 /tmp/steam.log | pastebinit
[01:40] <spencer7x7> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6487445/
[01:42] <spencer7x7> should we just install wine and put steam?
[01:43] <ali1234> heh
[01:44] <ali1234> personally i think you should install xubuntu instead lubuntu... i know steam works on that
[01:45] <daftykins> TF2 so won't run well :D
[01:46] <spencer7x7> naw lubuntu i think is better because its a old computer and people said use lubuntu it's lightweight
[01:46] <spencer7x7> im mydim3
[01:46] <spencer7x7> now
[01:46] <ali1234> if your computer can't run xubuntu it definitely can't run TF2...
[01:46] <spencer7x7> it can run it but
[01:46] <spencer7x7> its a hassle to install it.
[01:47] <spencer7x7> i already like lubuntu
[01:47] <daftykins> may have to give up on Steam then
[01:47] <spencer7x7> its better to get wine
[01:47] <spencer7x7> and then steam
[01:47] <ali1234> you can try it
[01:47] <daftykins> lol trust me it's way too crap to WINE a game
[01:48] <ali1234> can't hurt... and there's more games that work in wine
[01:48] <ali1234> plus wine is usually faster than windows
[01:49] <spencer7x7> i know right
[01:49] <spencer7x7> ali its me mydim3
[01:49] <spencer7x7> not spencer7x7
[01:50] <daftykins> "/nick nickname"
[01:50] <mydim3> cool
[01:50] <mydim3> ok
[01:50] <mydim3> its the owner of the computer
[01:51] <mydim3> how do i get wine?
[01:52] <ali1234> it's in the software center
[01:53] <mydim3> which one??
[01:53] <mydim3> there are 3 options
[01:54] <mydim3> playonlinux?
[01:54] <mydim3> ali
[01:55] <mydim3> hello?
[01:55] <mydim3> everyone left?
[01:56] <daftykins> what are the three you see?
[01:56] <daftykins> actually just look up whatever game you're going to want to try and run for a guide
[01:57] <ali1234> i dunno how you install stuff in lubuntu ...
[01:57] <mydim3> hey any of you know elsword?
[01:57] <ali1234> i would just do "sudo apt-get install wine"
[01:57] <ali1234> then you follow some guide for how to install steam in wine
[01:58] <ali1234> basically download steam.exe for windows and then wine steam.exe
[05:05] <MartijnVdS> http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/11/once-great-ssd-manufacturer-ocz-filing-for-bankruptcy/
[05:10] <daftykins> !
[05:10] <daftykins> wow.
[05:11] <MartijnVdS> They were one of the first SSD manufacturers, and some of their early devices had high failure rates
[05:11] <daftykins> *nod*
[05:12] <daftykins> it didn't seem like they really had as much of a share of the market as they should, for how early and big a name they were on things
[05:12] <daftykins> no wonder they were so tight about refunding me when my RAM broke :P
[05:12] <MartijnVdS> wasn't someone sending back their SSD under warranty?
[05:12] <MartijnVdS> +in here
[05:13] <daftykins> err possibly
[05:13] <daftykins> was bit bigcalm who had one or two die 0o
[05:14] <MartijnVdS> I think so. aq was the other one, but I don't know if that was an OCZ drive
[05:16] <MartijnVdS> Good thing Amazon's black friday deal SSDs are Crucials ;)
[05:17] <MartijnVdS> oh and a Kingston (in ~12 hrs)
[05:18] <daftykins> so weird that stuff coming to the UK too
[05:18] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: even amazon.de is doing it
[05:18] <daftykins> it's like there's not even any difference between the UK and US now
[05:18] <MartijnVdS> hm, Hugh Laurie's album in 8 hrs
[05:19] <daftykins> 8hrs?
[05:21] <MartijnVdS> daftykins: yeah, on their "Upcoming deals" list, they show that in 8 hours time, they'll have a deal on tha
[05:21] <MartijnVdS> t
[05:21] <daftykins> aaah
[05:21] <daftykins> i get ya
[05:22] <daftykins> just looking at the SSDs section now
[05:22] <daftykins> although i don't need anything :)
[05:59] <knightwise> morning everyone
[06:12] <mungbean> morning
[06:44] <knightwise> hey mungbean
[06:44] <knightwise> do you by chance know anything about lmde ?
[06:44] <knightwise> for the life of me i"m unablet to find a way to run a remote desktop server on it
[06:59] <mungbean> nope :(
[06:59] <mungbean> try x2go
[06:59] <knightwise> x2go, does that support rdp ?
[07:00] <mungbean> ah try xrdp
[07:02] <knightwise> looks like the server is running
[07:05] <knightwise> hmm.. xrdp works,  but it starts up a different session
[07:05] <knightwise> not remote control the session i'm currently using
[07:13] <MooDoo> morning all :)
[07:13] <MooDoo> seen this?  got a quote to send in, I've done mine - http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=8762
[07:27] <MartijnVdS> \o all
[07:28] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: "Bodyshots." - M. Shuttleworth (source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSxAoxwYyxE)
[07:41] <knightwise> Hey everyone !
[07:45] <MooDoo> howdy knightwise
[07:49] <popey> Morning
[07:50] <MooDoo> morning
[07:52] <popey> I need to buy a colour laser multi function printer
[07:52] <popey> "multi" in this case only really means print and copy, dont need the fax bit
[07:54] <knightwise> grr , cant believe the only way to simply remote access a 'current' session on an LMDE machine via RDP is through some complicated hack
[07:54] <MartijnVdS> popey: if you want something that's well-supported in Ubuntu, HP and Brother tend to be good
[07:55] <popey> yeah, HP are my usual go-to
[07:55] <MartijnVdS> popey: I have an HP colour laser printer (no scanning feature), which is amazing
[07:55] <TheOpenSourcerer> We've used Xerox and Kyocera before with no real issues either. TBH I don't think printers is that much of an issue anymore...
[07:56]  * knightwise hasn't had a printer in years
[07:56] <popey> it'll mostly be used from a mac anyway
[07:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> Been using Xerox for the last lasers and they've performed well and lasted well. And have replacement toner that costs less than a new printer - amazingly.
[07:56] <MartijnVdS> popey http://tweakers.net/categorie/922/printers/producten/#filter:NcyxCoAgFIXhdzmzQ1aE-gBuPUE0iN5BEI1rtITvng5NBz5-zovCgdhGSgEG1RcmCFwcPe0xw0wC9SJvY7qJK8yLeZHz2MclmAN62nA2MXgd7HIYLHGKP1Fa9U-ldQ9b-wA
[07:57] <MartijnVdS> popey: correction, that's both b/w and colour laser printers with scanning features.
[07:57] <MartijnVdS> http://tweakers.net/categorie/922/printers/producten/#filter:VcyxDoQgEATQf5maQsUY4APsrrrSWBDYggtRs5hrDP_ukovFVZu8mdkLO0fiOVGOcDg4fQrUD987n2K-BBFJAr3SBtcplIPCnPJJXOAuDLof2v36DLfAdhPWqhqPjf0WG_dY1VMx1shPY-1T1H97LVzrDQ
[07:57] <MartijnVdS> this is colour-only
[07:58] <MartijnVdS> It seems to like the HP Laserjet Pro 100 M175nw
[08:00] <popey> heh, thats the one I found last night and left open in amazon to look at
[08:01] <MartijnVdS> popey: there are 2 versions, one with just USB2 and one with ethernet and wifi as well
[08:01] <MartijnVdS> popey: (which is only €30 more expensive, but so worth it ;))
[08:02] <popey> yeah, needs to be networked
[08:02] <popey> it'll be hidden in a cupboard
[08:02]  * popey goes to measure cupboard.. 441x421x338, or 441x380x441 with everything open
[08:04] <popey> \o/ it will fit
[08:04] <popey> looks like we have a winner
[08:05] <popey> £210 from printware
[08:05] <MartijnVdS> How do you distinguish the USB version and the ethernet/wifi version on amazon?
[08:05] <popey> CE866A vs CE865A
[08:05] <popey> it also has nw on the end of the model number
[08:05] <MartijnVdS> also, M175a vs M175nw apparently
[08:06] <popey> 190 on ebay
[08:11] <popey> Bought!
[08:11] <popey> thanks for the help
[08:11] <MartijnVdS> np
[08:13] <popey> once it arrives I might look at making a sliding shelf for it
[08:16] <dvrr> good morning  all
[08:18] <MooDoo> good morning
[08:24] <dvrr> TLS key negotiation failed to occur within 60 seconds (check your network connectivity)     how to resolve openvpn   client problem
[08:25] <dvrr> TLS Error: TLS handshake failed
[08:25] <dwatkins> mornin!
[08:25] <popey> pip pip
[08:26] <dvrr> popey
[08:26] <MooDoo> dvrr - does this help? - http://openvpn.net/index.php/open-source/faq/79-client/253-tls-error-tls-key-negotiation-failed-to-occur-within-60-seconds-check-your-network-connectivity.html
[08:26] <popey> dvrr: ?
[08:26] <dvrr> openvpn server   TLS key negotiation failed to occur within 60 seconds (check your network connectivity)     how to resolve openvpn   client problem
[08:27] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[08:29] <popey> https://fund.arkos.io/ so close
[08:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> Don't forget AlanOS too: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-raspberry-pi-build-cluster-for-ubuntu/x/5292412 ;-)
[08:38] <popey> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/26/xbox-one-juddering-plagues-uk-tv-watchers
[08:38] <popey> oof
[08:39] <TheOpenSourcerer> rotflmao
[08:40] <MooDoo> oh deal "known issue but has declined to comment" ooops
[08:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> My kids said they wanted a xbone but I said nope. Not having that in our house. Don't like the "always on" nature of the kinect stuff... Will steer them gently towards some version of the Steam box next year.
[08:43] <MooDoo> wii in our house, althogh just bought laddo his first ds
[08:43] <TheOpenSourcerer> We have a Wii and an xbox 360
[08:46] <TheOpenSourcerer> Oh help... I'm looking at chilli seeds... Again.
[08:46] <directhex> we have a wii in our house
[08:47] <directhex> plus some other odds and sods
[08:47] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: cross breed them and create an ubuntu coloured one. ;)
[08:47] <directhex> TheOpenSourcerer, have they given a reason for xbone over ps4 or wiiu?
[08:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> Not really directhex just "it's new" so it must be better ;-)
[08:48] <directhex> ps4 isn't out until tomorrow, it's even newer!
[08:48] <directhex> (in the uk)
[08:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> They spend too long gaming anyway.
[08:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> They have enough right now.
[08:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> I am inclined to support Steam - if the device looks any good - next year.
[08:49] <MooDoo> can't get my daughter off the ipad with peppa pig games at the moment.
[08:50] <diplo> popey: Know much about the arkos ?
[08:50] <MartijnVdS> argos?
[08:50] <directhex> archos?
[08:50] <diplo> Looks the sort of thing work people could use. https://fund.arkos.io/
[08:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> MooDoo: Bit like this one you mean? http://www.hot-pain.de/files/forum/images/sorten/Bhut_Orange_Kopenhagen_Frucht_reif1.jpg
[08:53] <popey> diplo: only what you see on the site
[08:53] <diplo> OK, just downloaded Genesis to have a looksy :)
[08:53] <popey> yeah, i had a play
[08:53] <diplo> Thoughts ?
[08:54] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: fab lol
[08:55] <popey> diplo: it's not finished ☻
[08:56] <popey> TheOpenSourcerer: I can't see myself getting an Xbone or PS4 anytime in the next 3 years. The kids still play xbox classic and 360, and wii
[08:58] <directhex> i currently plan to ignore the xbox one
[08:58] <MartijnVdS> I'm planning to ignore both xb1 and ps4
[08:58] <diplo> Same here, kids love the ps3. Got them infinity and the swap force game
[08:58] <directhex> but in the general case, i want to see a gaming experience on xbone or ps4 which was impossible on 360 or ps3, before splashing out
[08:58] <diplo> And I rarel yused my 360 or ps3 when the kids aren't about
[08:58] <MooDoo> directhex: my lad loved infinity, now wants swap force, but not for christmas me thingks
[08:59] <directhex> the wii u has gaming experiences which were impossible on prior hardware
[08:59] <MartijnVdS> diplo: get them Lumines Supernova :)
[08:59] <diplo> Wasssat ? MartijnVdS :)
[08:59] <directhex> MooDoo, it was on yesterday's amazon black friday
[08:59] <directhex> diplo, a colour matching block game
[08:59] <MartijnVdS> with matching music
[08:59] <diplo> directhex: I'm just waiting for the bugs, maybe another year or so until a PS4
[08:59] <MooDoo> directhex: we got him a 3ds for christmas this year, that's enough
[09:00] <diplo> Ah right, they have stuff like that on the tablet
[09:00] <AlanBell> morning all
[09:00] <directhex> MooDoo, we got ourselves a 3ds for xmas this year
[09:00] <diplo> Talking of tablets, does anyone or has anyone know how to root /rom a 2nd Gen Kindle Fire
[09:00] <MartijnVdS> diplo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pk51iTZx00
[09:00] <AlanBell> can someone confirm this bug? Bug #1232015
[09:00] <diplo> God I hate that interface!!!!
[09:00] <MartijnVdS> oh thats not moving
[09:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> MooDoo: That part of my chilli seed collection that I want to grow next year: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6488619/
[09:00] <MooDoo> directhex: yeah don't think he needs one of them yet but the 3ds games do work on the 2ds but without 3d
[09:00] <MartijnVdS> diplo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVAyiRhzPLg that one is :)
[09:01] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: I may be contacting you at some point as I want to try again with the chilli growing.
[09:01] <diplo> heh Xbox One add at the start, wonder if they have paid to load their ads at anythin gwith PS3/4 :)
[09:01] <diplo> That sounds like it would drive me insane fairly quickly MartijnVdS, but my eldest would probably like it.
[09:01] <dwatkins> Why didn't they call the Model B Raspberry Pi with more memory the Model B+?
[09:02] <directhex> there are no games on xbone or ps4 at launch which could not have been on ps3/360 at a slightly lower resolution.
[09:02] <MartijnVdS> diplo: I have it on the PSP. You start to dream of it, like when you've played too much Tetris
[09:02] <directhex> hell, half the launch games *are* on the ps3/360 at a slightly lower resolution
[09:02] <diplo> Exactly why I haven't even looked yet
[09:02] <directhex> and the rest are not new. Ryse on xbone is just god of war, which is just streets of rage
[09:03] <directhex> new experiences please
[09:04] <MartijnVdS> directhex: like the Stanley Parable?
[09:05] <directhex> MartijnVdS, that's another way to play the idea, sure. but i think the problem with indie games is they're most common on pc and smartphone... why buy a steamos box for indies when you could pay less for ouya?
[09:05] <directhex> MartijnVdS, but even from the big names
[09:06] <directhex> MartijnVdS, example: the first big budget next-gen game, when the 360 and ps3 shipped, was Dead Rising on the 360. the processing power of the 360 enabled a totally new type of apocalypse compared to what could run on the ps2 or xbox or gamecube
[09:06] <directhex> even with 2-colour textures and 30-polygon models, that game wouldn't have been possible on ps2
[09:07] <directhex> which we know from experience, thanks to the wii "port" which decreased zombie numbers by about 10x, making a totally different game
[09:10] <directhex> compare the crowd density (therefore the whole experience of how to survive a zombie horde) between http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxzREqJjeUA#t=33 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf5TmwAo_l4
[09:10] <directhex> (the second video is from the 2nd game, but that's an unchanged detail)
[09:12] <MooDoo> wow ubuntu irc mailing list is quiet :)
[09:15] <Laney> like the ubuntu mailing lists irc channel
[09:15] <MooDoo> Laney: I'm just looking at other ubuntu opportunities, always the same though, must be an ubuntu member :)
[09:24] <mungbean> why did i receive a letter from google about adsense?
[09:24] <mungbean> a paper one to my house
[09:24] <MooDoo> cheque payment?
[09:24] <mungbean> adsense pin
[09:24] <mungbean> not sure i use adsense
[09:25] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: adsense is for business buying ads
[09:25] <MartijnVdS> businesses*
[09:25] <popey> bah, nice frying pans on lightning deals are non-induction
[09:25] <MooDoo> I use it on my blog
[09:26] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy French Toast Day! :-D
[09:26] <MooDoo> morning JamesTait
[09:26] <popey> Bonjour!
[09:26] <MartijnVdS> hmmm french toast
[09:26] <mungbean> youtube ad earnings?
[09:26] <mungbean> i thoughtg they only got paid after $1000
[09:26] <mungbean> $100
[09:27] <MartijnVdS> JamesTait: French toast is called "Wentelteefjes" in Dutch. I'll leave you to figure out the literal translation of that ;)
[09:27] <MooDoo> mungbean: the threshold is £60
[09:28] <MartijnVdS> so, $100
[09:28] <MooDoo> ah yes lol
[09:28] <MartijnVdS> my brother used to get a lot of extra money from Amazon affiliate links
[09:28] <JamesTait> MartijnVdS, my South African wife tells me the second part looks ike something not very complimentary in Afrikaans. ;)
[09:29] <MartijnVdS> JamesTait: "wentelen" = "to turn", "teefje" = "little female dog" :)
[09:29] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: I make about a £1.00 every other day lol
[09:29] <JamesTait> MartijnVdS, yep, that just about matches. :)
[09:30] <directhex> aha. skylanders giants is on black friday at 12:15pm
[09:32] <MartijnVdS> JamesTait: this explores the etymology of the word: http://vorige.nrc.nl/krant/article1629651.ece/Wentelteefje
[09:33] <MooDoo> popey: just reviewing old irc council mailing list archives, seems ages ago [was feb 2008] that ownership of the channel was moved from loudmouthman :D
[09:34] <MooDoo> not heard that name in awhile :D
[09:34] <aquarius> Someone want to do me a favour? Go to https://www.medion.com/lenovoserviceshop/registerPage1 and see if it'll let you change the country field from "Germany" to something else?
[09:35] <JamesTait> MartijnVdS, understood every word! :-P
[09:35] <diplo> directhex: ooh I'll have to look at that, kids love that game
[09:35] <popey> i never see that name because he has me blocked everywhere
[09:35] <MartijnVdS> aquarius: no
[09:35] <MooDoo> lol
[09:35] <MooDoo> aquarius: not here either
[09:35] <MartijnVdS> aquarius: (as in "no it won't let me change it")
[09:35] <aquarius> how extremely irritating
[09:35] <JamesTait> aquarius, the label changes, the language doesn't.
[09:36] <directhex> aquarius, yes. but it's in german & euros anyway
[09:36] <aquarius> directhex, change the language to English at the top
[09:36] <JamesTait> aquarius, hang on.
[09:36] <aquarius> ah!
[09:36] <JamesTait> aquarius, there's a drop-down, then a language.
[09:36] <aquarius> yes
[09:36] <aquarius> I have to change the country selection to United Kingdom. Not just the language to English.
[09:36] <aquarius> thanks, lenovo. Thenovo.
[09:36] <JamesTait> aquarius, see, problem-solving like that is why I completed Riddling. :-P
[09:37] <aquarius> ooh, you completed it? Nice one!
[09:37] <aquarius> and without help from me :
[09:37] <aquarius> :)
[09:37] <JamesTait> aquarius, I really enjoyed it. :)
[09:37] <JamesTait> Though you were called a few choice names along the way. ;)
[09:38]  * aquarius grins
[09:38] <aquarius> that's the idea
[09:38] <JamesTait> I thought as much.
[09:38] <aquarius> cross-platform version coming once my designer gets off his arse
[09:38] <aquarius> then, maybe, Riddling 2 :)
[09:38] <MartijnVdS> aquarius: does this make you The Riddler
[09:38] <MartijnVdS> ?
[09:38] <TwistedLucidity> aquarius, how about passing it through Google Translate?
[09:38] <MooDoo> oops I meant this list https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/ thanks for the clarification AlanBell :)
[09:39] <aquarius> TwistedLucidity, it's sorted now -- you have to explicitly set the country in the header at the top, not just the language
[09:39] <TwistedLucidity> aquarius, ah; OK. I was going to mention the two settings. I didn't spot the language at first. Grey on gray. Smart!
[09:40] <aquarius>  6 to 8 digits, containing small and large letters and numbers
[09:40]  * aquarius shoots whoever came up with that policy.
[09:40] <MartijnVdS> weird password policy?
[09:40] <aquarius> it must be complicated! but not too long!
[09:40] <aquarius> CREATE TABLE USERS (PASSWORD CHAR(8))
[09:41] <AlanBell>  /o\
[09:41]  * MartijnVdS takes something to get rid of the headache that caused
[09:41] <aquarius> oh good, an email with subject "Ihre Anfrage im Lenovo Serviceshop"
[09:41] <TwistedLucidity> It must be easy for a computer to brute force, but hard for a human to remember. :-S
[09:43] <aquarius> Of course you can get service information! First you have to call a number which costs 15p per minute. Then you have to go to a website in a different language which has only been open for two weeks and doesn't have the parts you want. Then you have to sign up and hope they get back to you with parts availability.
[09:44] <aquarius> finally you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest.
[09:44] <aquarius> gordon bennett.
[09:44]  * popey notes aquarius should have bought warranty ☻
[09:44] <aquarius> popey, I didn't for reasons outlined: I don't want someone to come in and reimage my machine with Windows before they'll even look at it.
[09:44] <popey> thats an incorrect assumption
[09:45] <popey> they flat out do not do that
[09:46] <aquarius> Well. Bear in mind I bought the machine in PC World. I specifically asked them about that, and they specifically told me that's what they'll do. Now, I'm sure that that was the PC World warranty rather than the Lenovo warranty, but on the basis of this little experience I can't think that Lenovo would be all shining lights of loveliness.
[09:46] <popey> wat
[09:46] <popey> well, there you go
[09:46] <aquarius> This customer support experience is so dreadful that I am seriously considering spending £1000 on the new Sputnik rather than £40 on a replacement SSD, assuming that the replacement SSD is actually available at any point.
[09:46] <popey> lesson learned about buying in pcworld
[09:47] <popey> i have had to call lenovo twice for this laptop, they don't give a toss what's installed on it
[09:47] <aquarius> Gotta love it when the machine's own hardware maintenance manual has "TBD" as the Lenovo part number for a part.
[09:47] <popey> had the mobo and the display replaced
[09:47] <popey> for 45 quid that strikes me as excellent value for money
[09:47] <TwistedLucidity> aquarius, in PC World they probably will. Use Clonzilla or something similiar before handing it over. And delete and sensitive files.
[09:47] <aquarius> popey, I bought it in PC World because, if it threw a seven two weeks in, I had a shop to take it back to rather than hours on the phone and then a week without the machine
[09:47] <popey> which reminds me, that probably runs out soon
[09:47] <popey> again
[09:48] <popey> with lenovo they dont take it away
[09:48] <popey> its repaired on site
[09:48] <aquarius> popey, now, that might have been a bad tradeoff in retrospect, but I did think about it.
[09:48] <popey> the guy has come to my house twice and repaired it on my kitchen table
[09:48] <aquarius> It's repaired on site *if* you bought the on-site warranty :)
[09:48] <popey> yes
[09:48] <popey> which you would be a fool not to
[09:48] <popey> oh
[09:48] <aquarius> and by the look of this it's quite likely that he wouldn't have the replacement part in his van
[09:48] <arsen> ooh i didnt know they did that, sounds good service popey.
[09:48] <popey> no
[09:48] <popey> assumption again aquarius
[09:48] <popey> stop doing that
[09:49] <TwistedLucidity> popey Had pretty much the same experience yesterday with Lenovo. Got registered, they checked the warranty, after that they didn't give a damn. All sorted.
[09:49] <popey> you phone them up and they get the engineer the part then he comes to your house
[09:49] <popey> he does drive round in a van full of parts rattling around
[09:49] <popey> JIT
[09:49] <AlanBell> aquarius is having a Victor Meldrew kind of day
[09:49] <bashrc> :)
[09:49] <aquarius> popey, ya, but the drive has not blown up. It has thrown a couple of errors. I am replacing it as preventative maintenance, not because it's dead.
[09:49] <popey> its dead enough to be a warranty replace IMO
[09:50] <aquarius> I'd like to believe that a nand flash chip which throws one error is itself a warranty replacement, but that seems... at best a subject for debate, I think, rather than intuitively obvious
[09:50] <popey> mind you, the SSD in my lenovo wont be covered by warranty because I bought it and installed it myself
[09:50] <popey> but then I can do that because it's a *proper* laptop
[09:51] <popey> not one of these silly ultrabook nonsense devices ☻
[09:51] <popey> wonder how much lenovo want for the part
[09:51] <popey> bet it's not pretty
[09:51] <aquarius> Yes. A few people have said that. You can choose replaceable parts, or you can choose something that looks nice, or you can choose a Macbook and struggle with Ubuntu on it.
[09:51] <aquarius> fantastic.
[09:51]  * popey notes lots of canonical people have macbooks
[09:52] <aquarius> actually, assuming they are prepared to actually sell me the part, it's forty quid.
[09:52] <aquarius> which I am more than fine with.
[09:52] <popey> thats pretty good!
[09:52] <popey> http://imgur.com/JzpLEfm #learnfinnish !
[09:52] <aquarius> lots of canonical people do. They fall into a couple of categories. The first is OS X users who happen to also sometimes run Ubuntu. The second is pure Ubuntu users who like doing things like running a different kernel and understanding what "refit" means.
[09:53] <aquarius> hence looking at the Sputnik
[09:53] <aquarius> the machine I had least trouble with, and the one where I was hugely impressed with the service when there was a hardware problem, was the Dell I bought with Ubuntu on it. Perhaps this was a lesson.
[09:53] <popey> nope
[09:53] <popey> Robert Carr
[09:53] <popey> user of macbook, doesn't fall into either of your categories
[09:54] <aquarius> yeah, Robert Carr, he doesn't like fiddling about with stuff at a low level, does he? :)
[09:54] <popey> heh
[09:54] <popey> i accosted him over 18 months ago when i saw him with a macbook air
[09:54]  * Myrtti ponders about the Amazon lightning deals again
[09:54] <popey> i was surprised he had one "any good" "yes". "Any problems with ubuntu" "no"
[09:54] <Myrtti> Amazon seems to have overabundance on SSD's
[09:55] <TwistedLucidity> aquarius I'd never buy Dell. Cheap tat sold for a high price. Seen far too many Dell desktops and laptops blow (literally) to ever touch them again.
[09:55] <TwistedLucidity> I can, however, recommend ThinkPads. Certainly the previous gen (Tx30 series). The new gen might have issues with the click-pads.
[09:56] <aquarius> I liked my Dell, and shipping a good modern machine with Ubuntu on it is a good sign. And Laura has one and likes it :)
[09:56] <aquarius> I hate thinkpads. :(
[09:56] <MooDoo> my dell works fine with ubuntu on it
[09:56] <TwistedLucidity> aquarius Well, that just shows how wrong you are! :-D
[09:56] <arsen> last job i had i ran buntu on mac for a year, then moevd to OS X :/
[09:57] <TwistedLucidity> Dell may well have improved, but coming in to find you desktop a smokey ruin is never fun.
[09:57] <Myrtti> my Dells have all ran Ubuntu fine
[09:57] <MartijnVdS> aquarius: I have the XPS12 (bought when the old sputnik became unavailable, but before the new one was announced)
[09:57] <aquarius> right, this is my point. The recommendation I get is "buy a thinkpad". I say "I don't like how they look", and the response is "well, you should like it". No thanks :)
[09:57] <MartijnVdS> aquarius: if the new Sputnik is anything like it, it's *amazing*
[09:57] <TwistedLucidity> Myrtti: My current Dell doesn't. PITA.
[09:57] <aquarius> MartijnVdS, what specifically do you like about it?
[09:57] <arsen> for me, aquarius - its Lenovo or Macbook Air. the Lenovo ultrabook looks very nice.
[09:57] <aquarius> also, I would like to not spend a grand on a laptop if i don't have to
[09:57] <Myrtti> TwistedLucidity: mind you, Latitudes and Optiplexi
[09:58] <MartijnVdS> aquarius: its CPU (Haswell i7) with matching battery life (6-7 hours)
[09:58] <MartijnVdS> aquarius: it's light, has mini-DP. And the touchscreen works 8-)
[09:58] <MartijnVdS> (but I never use it)
[09:58] <aquarius> arsen, the lenovo ultrabook (first generation, u300s) is exactly what I have. And it has a weird non-standard nandflash chip instead of a normal SSD, which is why I'm having all the problems
[09:58] <arsen> arh :< no fun!
[09:59] <MartijnVdS> aquarius: it's not just mSATA?
[09:59] <aquarius> MartijnVdS, no.
[09:59] <MartijnVdS> that's just Wrong®
[09:59] <czajkowski> aloha
[09:59] <czajkowski> aquarius: your kid rocks!
[10:00] <aquarius> popey, I'd be interested to see someone's response to "did it install trivially?" Bunch of "tutorials" out there about how to install Ubuntu on new macbooks, with "edit the kernel boot line" and so on. A tutorial should be "put the disc in: click install". If it's more complicated than that, it worries me because I don't want to have to sod about with it. I want something that actually is designed to work :(
[10:00] <aquarius> czajkowski, yes. Yes, she does.
[10:01] <MooDoo> good morning czajkowski :)
[10:01] <popey> aquarius: that does work now
[10:01] <popey> the only thing you have to do is hold a key down during boot to get the boot menu
[10:01] <MooDoo> aquarius: a very proud moment :D
[10:02] <popey> aquarius: mirv seems happy with his asus ultrabook
[10:02] <aquarius> popey, not according to http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2184760 at least, which was less than a month ago. Maybe trusty works, but I'm not running trusty yet.
[10:02] <aquarius> popey, yeah, the Asus does seem nice. I like the idea of buying a machine with Ubuntu on it, though, because that sort of thing should be supported.
[10:02] <popey> ah, brand new machine
[10:02] <popey> yeah, unsurprised by that
[10:02] <aquarius> I'd go system76 except that I think all their machines look horrid. (And lots of people have complained, which gives me pause.)
[10:03] <popey> also, I note your U300 didn't work out of the box either when you got it!
[10:03] <popey> you had to do some fiddling IIRC?
[10:04] <popey> yes, system76 machines look like rebadged clevo generic laptops (which is exactly what they are)
[10:04] <aquarius> popey, I know it didn't, and that's what I'm trying to avoid this time. Having to work with david henningson to make the sound work was unbelieveably irritating. (Not him: he's nice. Having to do it at all.)
[10:04] <popey> yeah
[10:04] <popey> so.. dell xps 13
[10:04] <popey> hard work done by the lovely PES guys
[10:04] <popey> it's currently top of my next laptop list
[10:05] <popey> only thing that holds me back is lack of decent size ssd
[10:05] <aquarius> popey, this is my point, yeah. I don't want to have to buy a two year old machine just so it works. This might be overweening entitlement, but I flamin' well *ought* to be able to have all of (a) Ubuntu (b) a new machine (c) no problems. The idea that I ought to just accept that I'm only allowed old computers because I run Ubuntu really irritates me. Hence wanting to support someone making that possible, and atm as f
[10:05] <aquarius> ar as I'm aware the Sputnik is the only game in town.
[10:05] <popey> x1 runs ubuntu just fine too
[10:05] <aquarius> I am fortunate with ssd sizes. This only has 120GB and I'm pretty much OK. A little bigger would be nice, but I don't have much in the way of space requirements.
[10:05] <popey> but you dont like thinkpads
[10:06] <popey> even the really nice ones
[10:06] <Myrtti> aquarius: the Dell Latitudes can be preinstalled with Ubuntu too
[10:06] <aquarius> popey, yeah. I admit this is unfortunate, my dislike for thinkpads, but I can't help it.
[10:06] <MartijnVdS> aquarius: nice thing about unused space on an SSD is that it increases lifetime (or it should, anyway)
[10:06] <MartijnVdS> aquarius: yay wear leveling
[10:06]  * popey checks his backups ☻
[10:06] <Myrtti> it's not just Sputniks, if you don't fancy them. Mind you, Sputnik is cheaper and in many ways better than Latitudes
[10:07] <popey> excellent, last backup of my laptop happened 45 mins ago
[10:07]  * popey relaxes
[10:07] <aquarius> the day Lenovo ship a thinkpad without the nipple and without the mouse buttons and without garish red stuff on it, I'll look at them again :)
[10:07] <Myrtti> I thought that's exactly what they're doing
[10:07] <Myrtti> a lot of people are moving away from Lenovo's to Dells just because of that
[10:07] <aquarius> are they?
[10:08] <popey> garish red stuff?
[10:08] <Myrtti> well, without nipple and mouse buttons
[10:08] <Myrtti> atleast on some models
[10:08] <MartijnVdS> and the logo
[10:08] <popey> a 2mm line, 20mm long on the mouse button
[10:08] <popey> you have issues aquarius
[10:08] <aquarius> it's ugly. :)
[10:08] <Myrtti> popey: that's exactly the reason I don't like lenovos either
[10:08] <Myrtti> it is
[10:09] <popey> *boggle* ☻
[10:09] <Myrtti> then again I use the nipple mouse buttons with my touchpad
[10:10] <Myrtti> it's the nipple and the touchpad buttons I don't use
[10:10] <popey> MartijnVdS: https://plus.google.com/u/0/108930697266689628917/posts/iWhi1qyipsr
[10:10] <Myrtti> no no wait I do use the touchpad buttons. Nevermind me
[10:12] <aquarius> I never, never use them :)
[10:12] <popey> never use what?
[10:17] <aquarius> touchpad buttons
[10:21] <popey> the ones that are separate from the touchpad itself?
[10:21] <popey> I have the touchpad disabled on my thinkpad, never use it
[10:22] <popey> Touchpoint ftw
[10:28] <aquarius> you will see that we differ :)
[10:28] <aquarius> I only want a touchpad. No buttons, no touchpoint.
[10:29] <AlanBell> aquarius: I was thinking of getting an external touchpad
[10:29] <SuperMatt> Magic trackpad is good
[10:29] <AlanBell> apple and logitec do one, surprisingly few other competitors to it
[10:32] <MartijnVdS> The "All caught up!" bell in Google+ now eats cake
[10:33] <SuperMatt> yes... it does
[10:35] <MartijnVdS> it used to just wiggle
[10:38] <popey> golly, skyrim is only £3.74
[10:39] <MartijnVdS> popey: amazon?  steam?
[10:39] <popey> steam
[10:39] <mungbean> wow
[10:39] <mungbean> i wish i played games
[10:40] <popey> i want to buy KSP but not at that price
[10:40] <popey> also prison architect seems too expensive at 9.99
[10:41] <aquarius> is Prison Architect the new thing from the defcon people?
[10:41] <aquarius> I read a blog post about it a while back
[10:41] <popey> yes
[10:41] <aquarius> ?introversion
[10:42] <popey> ya
[10:42] <MartijnVdS> also, it's still in development, afaik
[10:46] <diplo> I've got to back up my headoffices data to my office ( linux boxes ) about 350gb from one server and probably another 30-40gb from others
[10:47] <diplo> Rsnapshot seems to be what I'm going for, any other recommendations ?
[10:48]  * penguin42 would normally use rsync
[10:48] <popey> Is it lunchtime yet?
[10:49] <penguin42> no
[10:49] <diplo> I normally use rsync, but just like the idea of having hourly/daily backups
[10:50] <directhex> bacula!
[10:50] <diplo> I heard someone else mention Bacula, think it was Allan from TechSnap
[10:51] <popey> He is very good at Tetris
[10:51] <popey> I have beaten him a few times, but he's very quick.
[10:51] <diplo> :)
[10:51] <penguin42> diplo: It looks like rsnapshot is built on top of rsync and does something like Apple's time machine setup
[10:52] <popey> it is
[10:52] <popey> i use rsnapshot for backing up all my machines
[10:52] <directhex> i use crashplan for desktops/laptops
[10:52] <popey> do you backup to other machines?
[10:53] <diplo> Right, will give it a go in a bit
[10:53] <popey> or to crashplan?
[10:53]  * AlanBell wonders what to do about a new phone handset
[10:53] <directhex> popey, to a usb disk and to crashplan
[10:54] <diplo> Moto G AlanBell  ?
[10:55] <AlanBell> I am unenthusiastic about android
[10:55] <AlanBell> my Peak+ firefox OS order just got cancelled
[10:55] <directhex> lumia!
[10:55] <popey> why?
[10:55] <MartijnVdS> nexus5!
[10:55] <AlanBell> popey: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlanBell/posts/UVvBqeqhzDs
[10:56] <AlanBell> Ubuntu don't have any timescale or partner for a handset
[10:57] <penguin42> the Jolla hardware spec looks quite nice
[10:57] <popey> you were willing to wait for a "geek" phone but not willing to buy a nexus 4 and flash it with ubuntu?
[10:57] <TwistedLucidity> How quickly will Jolla get sued by someone for patent infringement do you think?
[10:57] <popey> geek_points--
[10:57] <popey> jolla is only available in limited numbers at the moment
[10:57] <penguin42> TwistedLucidity: They probably won't bother until they sell a large number
[10:57] <popey> AlanBell: firefox os from zte is available on ebay
[10:58] <AlanBell> well I wanted a firefox os handset :) ZTE open is a possibility
[10:58] <popey> 60 quid
[10:58] <AlanBell> nexus 4 is a possibility
[10:58] <AlanBell> no, it isn't, no longer available for sale
[10:58] <popey> yes. it is
[10:58] <popey> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZTE-Open-powered-by-Firefox-OS-3G-unlocked-smartphone-orange-eBay-exclusive-/171123860758?pt=UK_Mobile_Phones&hash=item27d7c6e516
[10:59] <AlanBell> popey: nexus 4 https://play.google.com/store/devices/details/Nexus_4_16_GB?id=nexus_4_16gb&hl=en_GB
[10:59] <popey> oh, sorry, thought you meant the zte
[10:59] <penguin42> AlanBell: So my reading, which I might be wrong, is that the ZTE Open is basically a ZTE Blade (aka Orange San francisco) loaded with Firefox OS - the specs look very similar
[10:59] <AlanBell> ZTE open is ok, I did want the bigger screen of the peak+
[10:59] <popey> AlanBell: i was more referring to "Ubuntu don't have any timescale or partner for a handset"
[10:59] <AlanBell> penguin42: yeah, same kinda think
[10:59] <popey> which implies you're only willing to go for ubuntu phone if it's in a shop
[10:59] <penguin42> AlanBell: Note the ZTE Open doesn't have much in the way of cpu,ram, screen or much else (it's been my main phone for years)
[10:59] <popey> rather than flashing an existing phone
[11:00] <AlanBell> popey: well I kind of don't like paying for an operating system I don't want
[11:00] <popey> riiiight
[11:00] <AlanBell> so if there was a handset with OS royalty payments going to canonical then I would get it
[11:01] <popey> you can donate
[11:01] <AlanBell> it isn't an overwhelming consideration, it just offends my capitalist principals
[11:02] <AlanBell> penguin42: yeah, it is a low end handset, I would like more pixels
[11:02] <AlanBell> the nexus 4 would appear to have a decentish screen if they sold it
[11:02] <popey> buy two
[11:03] <popey> buy a nexus 5 and port ubuntu to it ☻
[11:03] <AlanBell> a reduntant array of inexpensive smartphones
[11:04] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: I'm in London in 2 weeks. I can bring my old Galaxy Nexus 8-)
[11:05] <AlanBell> ooh, how long for?
[11:05] <popey> \o/ beer
[11:05] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: Fri-Sun
[11:06] <MartijnVdS> (though there's a lunch+concert on Saturday from 13:00 to $late)
[11:06] <MartijnVdS> popey: so beer would have to be a Friday thing :)
[11:08] <MartijnVdS> friday the 13th!
[11:08] <popey> should make it an ubuntu-uk meetup ☻
[11:10] <MartijnVdS> +1
[11:12] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:17] <MooDoo> mornig davmor2
[11:17] <davmor2> MooDoo: me owld mucka
[11:17] <MooDoo> davmor2: hows it going.....
[11:18] <davmor2> MooDoo: pretty good at the minute, finally starting to get back on top with the apps queue after a week off :)
[11:19] <MooDoo> davmor2: awesome, I've been looking into ubuntu member ship and the IRC council lol exciting stuff eh lol
[11:19] <davmor2> MooDoo: serious stuff though less of the loling ;)
[11:20] <MooDoo> davmor2: yes sir
[11:21] <davmor2> MooDoo: and that's the right attitude, now go make me a sandwich :D
[11:21] <MooDoo> davmor2: no, and if you type sudo make me a sanwich i'm logging off or blocking you ;0
[11:21] <MartijnVdS> MooDoo: http://xkcd.com/838/
[11:22] <MooDoo> MartijnVdS: fab :)
[11:22] <davmor2> MooDoo: sudo -s && go make me a sandwich :P
[11:22] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: so, after the root shell is exited, make a sandwich as not-root?
[11:22] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: shh
[11:22] <penguin42> fortunately I protect my bread with SELinux
[11:23] <davmor2> MooDoo: sudo -s
[11:23] <davmor2> MooDoo: make me a sandwich
[11:23] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: ^ you happy now?
[11:23] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: I think he might tell you to make your own :)
[11:24] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: It'll be easier and I'll get a filling I like :)
[11:24] <MartijnVdS> bacon!
[11:26] <MooDoo> davmor2: fsck off young man.
[11:27] <arsen> trying to catch up on #ubuntu-uk chat backlog after a 1 hour meeting is like swimming in syrup
[11:27] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: I might make bacon but MooDoo is evil he would coat it in marmite
[11:28] <popey> \o/ marmite highlight
[11:28] <popey> AlanBell: how are you getting to Reading?
[11:28]  * popey will probably take a train from farnborough north
[11:28] <MooDoo> marmite sucks bovril FTW \o/
[11:32] <SuperMatt> phone interview in an hour /o\
[11:32] <arsen> ooh, good luck!
[11:32] <MooDoo> SuperMatt: what for?
[11:33] <penguin42> good luck!
[11:33] <MooDoo> and good luck
[11:33] <SuperMatt> possibly one of the best linux jobs a guy can get
[11:33] <arsen> subjective :P
[11:33] <SuperMatt> I'll tell all if I move on to the next stage
[11:33] <arsen> some people are canonical kinda guys, especially in here
[11:34] <arsen> some people are googlers/facebooktypes/twatters
[11:34] <SuperMatt> I would love to work for canonical, but I haven't seen any jobs there that suit me
[11:34] <arsen> likewise, i dont think i have the knowledge, nor ubuntu specifics, and i'm not a linux dev :D
[11:35] <MooDoo> SuperMatt: snap!
[11:35] <SuperMatt> there are some roles which are too technical for me, some which are just not my area of expertise, and the rest, which are right, aren't in the UK
[11:36] <Laney> You can change your areas of knowledge
[11:36] <constrictor> I want to upgrade my ram to something like 8GB I'm currently on 4GB crucial is telling me the most I can go is 4GB but I have a 64bit Processor how is it possible that it will only see 4GB?
[11:36] <Laney> i.e. get involved with development, learn stuff, prove you are clueful, apply for job
[11:36] <penguin42> constrictor: Because the chipset/CPU might limit the physical bus sizes
[11:37] <penguin42> constrictor: My laptop is also limited to 4GB max (and can actually only use a little over 3GB)
[11:37] <MooDoo> Laney: changing your area of knowledge isn't that easy to be honest.
[11:37] <constrictor> I thought that limitation was on the Processor
[11:37] <penguin42> constrictor: The 64bit-ness of a CPU refers to the size of the registers, not the physcial memory (or even virtual memory) address range
[11:37] <constrictor> hmmm
[11:38] <Laney> MooDoo: it's also known as learning...
[11:38] <Laney> I'm sure you can do that
[11:38] <AlanBell> and you address memory using a register . . .
[11:38] <SuperMatt> Laney: sure, but I'm just not good enough at dev yet :(
[11:38] <Laney> everyone had to get started at some point
[11:38] <penguin42> constrictor: Everyone along the line has to be able to do it, so CPU, chipset and motherboard wiring
[11:38] <MooDoo> Laney: i'm old, I don't want to learn :p unless it's how to grow decent chillies
[11:39] <SuperMatt> I want to learn that too
[11:40] <constrictor> thanks penguin42 so it seems that I have hit my ceiling then?
[11:40] <SuperMatt> quite likely
[11:40] <penguin42> constrictor: Probably
[11:40] <MooDoo> SuperMatt: we need to take TheOpenSourcerer out for a beer and pick his brains lol
[11:41] <SuperMatt> whenever upgrading your ram or cpu, you must always consider that your mobo won't be able to deal with it, which is why I tend to do simultanious ram/mobo/cpu upgrades every few years
[11:41] <Laney> Jus' saying that if you want to change what you're doing then you probably will need to get some new skills
[11:41] <SuperMatt> MooDoo: the next release party is only 5 months away, we can do it then
[11:42] <Laney> and Ubuntu development, if that interests you, is actually a good place to do that because there's no shortage of things to work on and lots of knowledgable and helpful people available to give you advice and feedback
[11:42] <MooDoo> Laney: i think i'm more of a people person rather than a dev which is why i was looking at the irc council but i don't qualify
[11:43] <Laney> so get qualified!
[11:43] <MooDoo> Laney: i'm working on it :D
[11:43] <Laney> it's all people who have decided to get off their bums and put some work / time in
[11:44] <MooDoo> Laney: i get the feeling you don't like lazyness ;)
[11:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> Did somebody say beer?
[11:45] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: yes SuperMatt and I are going to one day visit you buy you beer and pick your brains about chilli growing :D
[11:45] <Laney> MooDoo: Nah, I'm lazy myself - it's just thinking that you can't change your situation
[11:46] <Laney> which becomes a reason to stay doing the same thing even if it's not making you happy
[11:46] <TheOpenSourcerer> Cool.
[11:46]  * Laney goes back to setting up a trusty vm
[11:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> I will be starting my seeds off around the 1st Jan.
[11:48] <arsen> delayed response - the secret is in regular plantfood, MooDoo
[11:49] <MooDoo> TheOpenSourcerer: excellent....ubuntu uk chilli growing competition.
[11:55] <penguin42> AlanBell: Reading that Geeksphone note it sounds like their biggest problems were with memory; I wonder what it was about the stuff they used - had they just been unlucky/made bad choices or is there some more general problem?
[12:01] <AlanBell> penguin42: not sure, sounds like there is political stuff going on too, supplies are sqeezed so the big OEMs get all of them in preference to smaller players
[12:02] <directhex> link?
[12:03] <DJones> The Register really doesn't help itself with its reviews, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/28/five_oses_to_save_your_xp_netbook/ Talking about installing Ubuntu 12.04 "Performance was poor: even though I defragged the drive in both Windows and Ubuntu, the laggy XP experience persisted."...Well Duh..If you use WUBI, what do you expect, and just as good a comment "The killer lack-of-app was Minecraft. I'd assumed the game was so cool ...
[12:03] <DJones> ... Ubuntu's Software Centre would bring it to the netbook in mere moments."...
[12:04] <penguin42> The Register does seem to be getting worse; for a long time it was at least reasonably technical in a lot of it's articles but it seems to be losing it
[12:05] <directhex> like most sites, it does what it can to get cash
[12:05] <directhex> linkbait sells
[12:10] <mungbean> i wonder how much $£ they make
[12:10] <arsen> received my amazon SSD :D thanks black friday sales!
[12:11] <andrewebdev> ehm, just noticed that my clock on the top right is missing
[12:11] <andrewebdev> how would I get that back?
[12:12] <penguin42> it's probably indicator-datetime that's died
[12:12] <andrewebdev> all the options on the clock settings tab is greyed out as well
[12:17] <dvrr> WARNING: Since you are using --dev tun with a point-to-point topology, the second argument to --ifconfig must be an IP address.  You are using something (255.255.255.0) that looks more like a netmask. (silence this warning with --ifconfig-nowarn)
[12:18] <dvrr> openvpn  client side problem
[12:19] <dvrr> MooDoo
[12:21] <penguin42> http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/11/once-great-ssd-manufacturer-ocz-filing-for-bankruptcy/
[12:53] <GentileBen> 'The results aren't pretty and Mr 12 decided it looks like “A Mac made by someone who's only seen a Mac once,” a wisdom from the mouths of tweens moment if ever there was one.'
[12:53] <GentileBen> lol
[12:53] <GentileBen> penguin42, it's been coming for several months.
[12:53] <GentileBen> They had to take out loans a few months ago just so they could get enough NAND for their SSDs - and it was terrible, low-rent, poorly performing NAND because that's all they could afford.
[12:54] <GentileBen> Ironically it was Toshiba NAND.
[12:54] <penguin42> GentileBen: There was an article I was reading about LSI/Sandforce - they're losing business because the NAND vendors are doing their own controllers
[12:55] <GentileBen> Well, it's not a surprise. They got their fingers badly burnt by SF-2281.
[12:56] <penguin42> what happened with that?
[12:56] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: more money went out than in?
[12:56] <GentileBen> Apparently OCZ had a timed exclusive on SF-2281, which is why it had such a terrible run after their already bad Vertex 2 days.
[12:57] <GentileBen> OCZ had a failure rate of 7% on their SSDs. The likes of Samsung and Intel had about 2.5%.
[12:57] <GentileBen> And then most recently, their failure rate dropped to 2.5% according to Ars...but Samsung and Intel's rate was ~0.25%.
[12:58] <GentileBen> So Samsung were 10x as reliable as OCZ with better performance, the best NAND on the market, and the backing of a huge company's warranty.
[12:58] <GentileBen> Remember this penguin42? http://www.anandtech.com/show/5971/intel-discovers-sandforce-sf2281-controller-cant-do-aes256-encryption-offers-return-program
[12:59] <penguin42> oops
[13:00] <GentileBen> They shipped a controller with a broken AES-256 implementation, which took a year to be found out.
[13:00] <GentileBen> OCZ also sold terrible RAM. They pretty much pioneered the "throw cheap chips on a PCB and add a gold heat spreader" market.
[13:25] <GentileBen> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/10478401/Devil-cat-hospitalises-villagers-in-attacking-spree.html
[13:25] <GentileBen> "'Devil cat' hospitalises villagers in attacking spree"
[13:29] <mungbean> does IQ increase over time or remain static?
[13:29] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: image quality increases as better cameras/imaging techniques are invented
[13:30] <mungbean> intelligence quiotient?
[13:30] <MartijnVdS> ls
[13:30] <popey> .
[13:30] <popey> ..
[13:30] <popey> goat_porn
[13:31] <MartijnVdS> popey: Oops, I'm in ~popey again!
[13:31] <popey> heh
[13:31] <mungbean> ooooeer
[13:35] <MartijnVdS> popey: about friday the 13th - what's the best way to plan that? :)
[13:35] <GentileBen> lol MartijnVdS
[13:35] <GentileBen> He took your question and gave it a Dutch Oven, mungbean.
[13:35] <GentileBen> mungbean, average IQ increases over time. Nobody seems to be sure why.
[13:36] <mungbean> shouldn't it remain static?
[13:36] <GentileBen> i.e. the average IQ seems to increase by a point every year in the UK, IIRC.
[13:36] <mungbean> IQ should be a measure of now
[13:36] <popey> MartijnVdS: ask AlanBell to make a loco event, then pimp on the list?
[13:36] <GentileBen> mungbean, well, that's how IQ is defined.
[13:36] <mungbean> = all people living
[13:36] <GentileBen> 100 is the average.
[13:36] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: I guess it'll remain the same-ish, it's never completely static
[13:36] <GentileBen> So an IQ of 100 today isn't the same as an IQ in 2015.
[13:36] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: except maybe after a blow to the head
[13:36] <GentileBen> When they compare IQs from different years, they undo the adjustment they make.
[13:37] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: ^ what popey said ;)
[13:37] <GentileBen> Yes that's right - an IQ of 100 from 1980 is like an IQ of 80 from today.
[13:37] <GentileBen> Here you go mungbean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
[13:38] <GentileBen> It's also why the average IQ of Equitorial Guinea is 58... no stimulation besides trying to avoid coups organised by Mark Thatcher.
[13:39] <AlanBell> MartijnVdS: erm, just reading back :)
[13:39] <AlanBell> MartijnVdS: popey: venue?
[13:40] <mungbean> i'm trying to snoop my username/password getting entered into a web page, not getting much luck
[13:40] <mungbean> its an http page, wireshark has captured packets
[13:40] <mungbean> and tcpdump on the server
[13:41] <AlanBell> hmm, I am already supposed to be out in London on the 12th
[13:41] <mungbean> am i missing something needs decoding?
[13:41] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: yes, HTTP Basic authentication encodes it in .. I think base64? in a request header
[13:42] <mungbean> how do i view in wireshark?
[13:42] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: open the dump file, find a packet from your HTTP request, the right-click and go to "follow TCP stream"
[13:43] <SuperMatt> anyone an expert with openstack?
[13:43] <SuperMatt> or is there a #ubuntu-openstack?
[13:43] <SuperMatt> well I know the answer to the latter question
[13:44] <AlanBell> SuperMatt: I think #ubuntu-juju might be a good place
[13:44] <SuperMatt> you might be right
[13:44] <mungbean> MartijnVdS: great thanks
[13:44] <mungbean> its been a while..
[13:45] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: got that new GCHQ job then? :P
[13:46] <mungbean> that would be fun
[13:46] <mungbean> oops not allowed to say that
[13:47] <mungbean> they aren't popular round here i guess
[13:47]  * SuperMatt starts encrypting his porn dir
[13:47] <mungbean> ZXSpectrum.gif
[13:47] <popey> AlanBell: SuperMatt its #juju i thought
[13:47] <SuperMatt> it is
[13:48] <SuperMatt> but no one is juju is responding, so I'm trying #openstack
[13:48] <popey> probably due to turkey day
[13:48] <SuperMatt> ah
[13:48] <MartijnVdS> 'MURICA?
[13:48] <SuperMatt> some of them, probably
[13:49]  * AlanBell wonders how best to convert eastings and northings into lat/long
[13:50] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/UsefulData/ConvertUTMNoOZ.HTM ?
[13:50] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: they also have formulas there
[13:50] <AlanBell> that is one of the pages I have been puzzling over :)
[13:52] <DJones> This looks like a Homer Simpson Doh! moment http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-25134289
[13:53] <SuperMatt> I'm surprised he didn't just make backups
[13:54] <MartijnVdS> SuperMatt: much easier too
[13:54] <SuperMatt> I've got stacks of disks at home that I've been meaning to sort through
[13:55] <MartijnVdS> I'm pretty sure mine don't have bitcoins on them though
[13:55] <MartijnVdS> maybe a lost PGP key somewhere
[13:55] <SuperMatt> Once I've got everything I want off them, I'd wipe them several times over
[13:55] <MartijnVdS> SuperMatt: ATA Secure Erase++
[13:55] <MartijnVdS> SuperMatt: https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/ATA_Secure_Erase
[13:56] <mungbean> this bitcoin thing is crazy
[13:56] <mungbean> $1000?
[13:56] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: almost $1200
[13:57] <SuperMatt> MartijnVdS: I would have just used dban
[13:57] <SuperMatt> what I would really like though is an actual disk shredder
[13:58] <SuperMatt> it'd be a cool job to mount one to the back of a van, and drive around london asking people if they have any disks to shred
[13:58] <SuperMatt> £1 a disk or something
[13:58] <SuperMatt> you'd make a mint in no time
[13:58] <popey> there are companies that do that
[13:59] <MartijnVdS> SuperMatt: also, mirror them first and get blackmail material :)
[13:59] <popey> we used to have one come to work and shred all kinds of things, disks being one
[14:00] <SuperMatt> MartijnVdS: the idea is that you get the users to chuck them in, so you won't be able to mirror them
[14:00] <MartijnVdS> SuperMatt: ah, then have them pay for seeing their data be destroyed
[14:00] <SuperMatt> yup
[14:00] <MartijnVdS> SuperMatt: and sell the scrap :)
[14:00] <SuperMatt> of course
[14:01] <mungbean> is Azelphur a millionaire now then?
[14:01] <Azelphur> ...pretty much
[14:01] <Azelphur> more money than I know what to do with, lets put it like that.
[14:01] <SuperMatt> why's that?
[14:01] <mungbean> （╯°□°）╯ ┻━┻
[14:01] <Azelphur> BTC at $1170, continues to climb.
[14:01] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: buy an ASIC farm :)
[14:01] <SuperMatt> how many do you have?
[14:01] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: got one.
[14:01] <mungbean> buy an island
[14:01] <Azelphur> SuperMatt: around 110.
[14:02] <mungbean> craziness
[14:02] <SuperMatt> oh wow
[14:02] <SuperMatt> nice
[14:02] <MooDoo> ;what have i missed?  Azelphur 110 what? lol
[14:02] <Azelphur> pretty crazy, it's all just stored on my laptop on full drive encryption
[14:02] <SuperMatt> so not a millionaire yet, but there goes that pesky morgage ;)
[14:02] <Azelphur> it's weird walking around with a laptop knowing the data on it is worth a small house
[14:02] <SuperMatt> of course, you do have to be able to sell them all
[14:02] <mungbean> before the crash
[14:02] <Azelphur> heh, I wouldn't even dent mtgox in all honesty
[14:03] <Azelphur> but I don't plan to sell
[14:03] <Azelphur> I'm playing the long game
[14:03] <Azelphur> $10,000 next :)
[14:03] <MartijnVdS> I'm waiting for the next drop first
[14:04] <MooDoo> Azelphur: bitcoins?
[14:04] <MartijnVdS> litecoins are also going up apparently
[14:04] <Azelphur> MooDoo: yup
[14:04] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: yup, I have a decent holding on them too
[14:04] <MooDoo> $1000 a coin at the moemnt?
[14:04] <Azelphur> primecoin is the next big thing, I've banked on that
[14:04] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: at least they're affordable 8-)
[14:04] <Azelphur> MooDoo: $1170 and climbing
[14:04] <MooDoo> wow
[14:05] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: is it known why it's going up so high so quickly?
[14:05] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: China just joined the economy full force with Baidu accepting BTC
[14:05] <Azelphur> so basically...the whole of China just started buying BTC
[14:05] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: until their govt forbids it
[14:06] <Azelphur> xD
[14:06] <MartijnVdS> "Drop btc support or baidu drops off the net" kind of thing
[14:06] <Azelphur> isn't baidu government ran anyway?
[14:07] <AlanBell> I think it might be too big to fail
[14:07] <Azelphur> seems it isn't
[14:08] <MooDoo> isn't it a bit difficult to mine them?
[14:08] <Azelphur> MooDoo: yup, ASIC or gtfo is the summary of bitcoin mining right now
[14:09] <Azelphur> primecoin and litecoin however, they are still possible with OTC hardware
[14:09] <MooDoo> http://www.butterflylabs.com/
[14:10] <TheOpenSourcerer> How many coins have been mined so far?
[14:11] <Azelphur> TheOpenSourcerer: about 11 million
[14:11] <Azelphur> MooDoo: they are scammers, run like the plague.
[14:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> So 10m left
[14:11] <Azelphur> yea
[14:11] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: but the algorithm auto-scales so that will take $a_long_time to mine
[14:12] <MartijnVdS> \o/ difficulty
[14:12] <Azelphur> yep, hundreds of years.
[14:12] <TheOpenSourcerer> ok
[14:12] <MooDoo> Azelphur: really?
[14:12] <MartijnVdS> buying more ASICs will give short-term gain, but medium to long-term it'll make the difficulty go up, making it harder to find new blocks
[14:12] <Azelphur> MooDoo: yup, "Preorder now and we'll ship in October 2012" *Doesn't ship until August 2013*
[14:13] <Azelphur> Oh, you want a refund? NOPE.
[14:13] <Azelphur> summary of butterflylabs :)
[14:13] <MooDoo> Azelphur: what about mining software? any recommendations?
[14:13] <Azelphur> bitcoin mining on a standard desktop is pointless
[14:15] <MooDoo> sh ok
[14:15] <TheOpenSourcerer> How about on a cluster of Raspberry Pi? ;-)
[14:15] <AlanBell> sadly not :)
[14:15] <Azelphur> MooDoo: aim at primecoin (beefy CPU) or litecoin (high end AMD GPU)
[14:15] <MartijnVdS> not even on their GPUs?
[14:15] <AlanBell> 0.2 hashes per second per pi
[14:16] <AlanBell> not sure if it can use the GPU because of closedness
[14:16] <Azelphur> someone worked out how long it'd take to mine btc using pen and paper xD
[14:16] <AlanBell> 0.2Mhash/s
[14:17] <popey> they would die first, surely?
[14:17] <Azelphur> pretty much.
[14:17] <Azelphur> a few hundred times the age of the universe
[14:17] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[14:17] <AlanBell> maybe use a cluster of humans :)
[14:17] <SuperMatt> does the 12.04 installer have btrfs options?
[14:17] <GentileBen> MartijnVdS your argument makes no sense.
[14:17] <Azelphur> distributed human computing
[14:17] <Azelphur> xD
[14:17] <GentileBen> Mining difficulty is global not per-ser.
[14:17] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: An infinite number of monkeys with typewriters?
[14:17] <GentileBen> *per-user
[14:17] <popey> SuperMatt: yes, but only the basics
[14:18] <SuperMatt> can I select a subvolume?
[14:18] <GentileBen> The only sane way to mine today is to buy ASIC boxes.
[14:18] <popey> no, dont think so
[14:18] <SuperMatt> dang
[14:18] <SuperMatt> I wonder if maybe I can bootstrap the install
[14:18] <Azelphur> buying ASIC boxes right now isn't the best thing
[14:18] <Azelphur> I've avoided
[14:18] <GentileBen> MooDoo: CPU mining is worthless.
[14:18] <MooDoo> GentileBen: thanks :D
[14:18] <GentileBen> Azelphur because most are vapourware.
[14:18] <Azelphur> you've got BFL (Scammers) KnC (High hardware fail rate) and Avalon (Too expensive to be profitable)
[14:18] <Azelphur> yea
[14:19] <Azelphur> oh, I forgot to mention the CEO of BFL is a convicted felon
[14:19] <Azelphur> just gotta get that in there
[14:19] <xnox> SuperMatt: yes, but that doesn't mean that one should use btrfs from 12.04
[14:19] <TheOpenSourcerer> So who/how are they mined then?
[14:19] <GentileBen> MooDoo: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/05/weve-got-a-butterfly-labs-bitcoin-miner-and-its-pretty-darn-fast/
[14:19] <Azelphur> TheOpenSourcerer: by people who already have ASICs
[14:19] <SuperMatt> xnox: is it known to be bad?
[14:19] <GentileBen> TheOpenSourcerer: GPU farms, clusters, and CPU botnets.
[14:19] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining
[14:19] <popey> by people like this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=346134.msg3709913#msg3709913
[14:19] <Azelphur> GentileBen: nobody GPU mines any more
[14:19] <arsen> i was looking at that 600GH butterfly model, reckon that is actually going to perform at that rate?
[14:20] <MartijnVdS> arsen: butterfly are known scammers
[14:20] <Azelphur> arsen: it won't ship on time, and you'd probably just be better buying the BTC.
[14:20] <GentileBen> Azelphur it makes sense if you can botnet them.
[14:20] <Azelphur> yea
[14:21] <GentileBen> "Since this unit only uses 50 watts to hash at 5Ghs/sec, it is far more efficient than the GPU miners that have been working at this for years using 300-600 watts to hash at 800Mhs/sec."
[14:21] <Azelphur> https://www.dropbox.com/s/8yggidijumwwfvo/2013-10-25%2019.44.18.jpg
[14:21] <arsen> yeah, technically my company could setup a btc mining operation pretty rapidly, i'm not convinced by any of the hardware vendors though
[14:21] <Azelphur> here's what I have :)
[14:21] <arsen> i noticed yours yesterday in that /r/battlestations chat, Azelphur
[14:21] <arsen> i assume they're profitable, but im not really in the scene anymore to know what's current.
[14:21] <popey> what are they Azelphur ?
[14:22] <Azelphur> popey: Butterfly Labs SC Singles.
[14:22] <xnox> SuperMatt: yes.
[14:22] <popey> ah
[14:22]  * GentileBen botnets Azelphur
[14:22] <Azelphur> arsen: yea, I was surprised how many people recognised me in that thread, had loads of people recognising me by name for stuff I've worked on, was pretty cool :)
[14:22] <Azelphur> recognition \o/
[14:22] <SuperMatt> xnox: how... how bad are we talking?
[14:22] <arsen> Azelphur  - to put things in perspective, say you had the latest enterprise grade ivybridge servers, how do those chips compare to that SC Single?
[14:22] <Azelphur> arsen: <1% of the hashing speed.
[14:23] <arsen> hah great.
[14:23] <GentileBen> arsen, even a quad-socket 12-core IVB-EP rig would be trounced by a few ASICs at a fraction of the cost.
[14:23] <arsen> oh well, i've got a spare 360core blade chassis that arrived today, i was looking for something to burn it in :P
[14:23] <TheOpenSourcerer> gosh.
[14:23] <GentileBen> arsen, install Windows 8.1 and run PCmark on it. @___@
[14:24] <arsen> cpumark score for the CPU's is ~24,000
[14:24] <GentileBen> Now hang on a sec. 360 cores in a blade? Explain yourself.
[14:24] <arsen> blade CHASSIS, GentileBen
[14:24] <Azelphur> an overclocked i7 3770k will do like 5.2MH/sec, my ASICs do 60,000MH/sec. Each.
[14:24] <GentileBen> Oh. That's nothing then.
[14:24] <xnox> SuperMatt: my advice is: you should know your usecase, you should test it, and make an informed decision. It's no good for me, but I don't know what you need it for.
[14:24] <xnox> SuperMatt: in other words, if you need to ask => don't use it =)
[14:25] <SuperMatt> all righty then
[14:25] <Azelphur> arsen: so, an i7 will do about 0.009% of the hashing speed of an ASIC
[14:25]  * popey hugs btrfs
[14:25] <Azelphur> :)
[14:25] <arsen> righty. so the SC singles are the best to buy at the moment?
[14:25] <Azelphur> arsen: no, as I say, they are scammers. Don't order from BFL.
[14:25] <arsen> :D
[14:25] <Azelphur> If you already have a SC Single, great, you're profitable
[14:25] <arsen> thats the impression i got.
[14:25] <Azelphur> if your ordering now, I highly recommend against it
[14:26] <xnox> SuperMatt: popey would probably give you exact opposite, and encourage one to use btrfs =)
[14:26] <SuperMatt> well I am already using it
[14:26] <xnox> opinion that is.
[14:26] <popey> someone has to use it
[14:26] <SuperMatt> hence why I'm having to bootstrap an install in to it
[14:26] <Azelphur> you don't know if (or when) they will ship the product, whether it'll perform to advertised specs, and no refunds.
[14:26] <SuperMatt> well bootstrapping a 12.04 into a subvolume
[14:26] <Azelphur> you'd probably be better buying BTC and just sitting on them
[14:26] <Azelphur> I certainly would have come out WAY better had I sat on the BTC, instead of buying from BFL
[14:27] <arsen> yeah, im a technologist though - i could make a business use case for blowing a bit of IT budget on BTC miners if it at least paid for itself
[14:27] <arsen> i can't justify putting company funds in BTC exchanges, yet.
[14:27] <Azelphur> hehe
[14:27] <Azelphur> well, there are a few options if you really want to get in it, you should seriously do your research, remember mining is essentially an arms race, and if you're not at the front of the curve, you're loosing money.
[14:27] <arsen> but it would mean i get to play the BTC game, which i should of done ages ago - and did, until my dinner burnt and i got annoyed at myself for getting all excited at mining them and ruining my roast dinner :(
[14:28] <Azelphur> KnC has some nice hardware that would be profitable, but the high rate of hardware failure worries me
[14:28] <Azelphur> Avalon is a very safe bet, they only sell stuff they have in the warehouse ready to ship, thus no bullshit. It's expensive though, you may not make a profit. Hardware is really nice though.
[14:28] <arsen> i play the arms race game at work every day, just in a different industry - hence my interest in BTC mining.
[14:28] <arsen> sorry, the TECH arms race.
[14:29] <Azelphur> CoinTerra hardware sounds good, but they don't have anything concrete, so it really is just "sounds nice"
[14:29] <Azelphur> I noticed this too, the other day http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/prospero-x-1.html
[14:30] <arsen> the joke is when i first looked at BTC i was annoyed at a few dollars return over ~3 months, now that'd of been a few thousand profit :(
[14:30] <Azelphur> 100GH/sec for $290 sounds too good to be true. I'm sure there's a catch. Haven't spent much time looking into it.
[14:31] <GentileBen> Azelphur, you're a modern-day gold prospector.
[14:31] <Azelphur> haha
[14:31] <arsen> i'm equally looking at getting into it on a personal level, as well as work. may aswell benefit me too!
[14:31] <Azelphur> GentileBen: I dunno why, I'm just really good at bitcoin I guess
[14:31] <GentileBen> All you need is the hat, the longjohns and the missing teeth.
[14:31] <Azelphur> The very first day I saw bitcoin, read about it. I knew EXACTLY what was going to happen
[14:31] <Azelphur> and instantly dropped every penny I had into mining hardware
[14:31] <arsen> likewise, Azelphur. i just had no money :(
[14:31] <Azelphur> it's strange to be that confident in something
[14:33] <directhex> Azelphur, if i could get a couple of asicminer block erupters for free, is there much point in doing so?
[14:33] <Azelphur> directhex: sure, free money is free.
[14:33] <directhex> or are they too far behind the curve now?
[14:34] <Azelphur> behind the curve, but with something that low power there's no reason to care
[14:34] <Azelphur> may as well just run them, maybe you'll make 0.1 BTC or something after a while
[14:34] <Azelphur> :)
[14:34] <arsen> if i had free power, how does that change things? :D
[14:34] <Azelphur> arsen: considerably, run any and all hardware you have access to.
[14:34] <Azelphur> as its all free money
[14:34] <directhex> Azelphur, i guess i could run the daemon on an arm dev box i have spare. almost no watts
[14:35] <Azelphur> directhex: I have my ASICs plugged into my home server that'd be running anyway :)
[14:35] <arsen> we should start a btc mining group
[14:35] <Azelphur> arsen: you sound like you have a lot of PC-Grade hardware available, I wouldn't bitcoin mine on it
[14:35] <Azelphur> litecoin/primecoin is more profitable
[14:36] <arsen> to be brutally honest my company has too much money and i can pursuade them when it comes to tech, so if i can use them to fund my BTC learning then i'd be interested, lol.
[14:36] <popey> Azelphur: you mentioned amd cards for litecoin?
[14:36] <Azelphur> popey: yup, that's reasonably worthwhile doing
[14:36] <AlanBell> is there room for litecoin/primecoin as well as bitcoin?
[14:37] <Azelphur> yup
[14:37] <popey> and are there any exchanges that accept lite/prime?
[14:37] <popey> "Is there room for USD with EUR" :D
[14:37] <AlanBell> well yeah, fair point :)
[14:37] <Azelphur> popey: yup, btce
[14:37] <arsen> interesting, i didnt know about those. Thanks Azelphur.
[14:37] <Azelphur> you generally exchange the altcoins into bitcoin
[14:37] <popey> right
[14:38] <popey> at the BTC/USD exchange rate?
[14:38] <MartijnVdS> popey: nah, at the BTC/LTC rate
[14:38] <popey> oh
[14:38] <MartijnVdS> or BTC/PrC rate
[14:38] <MartijnVdS> popey: https://btc-e.com/exchange/ltc_btc
[14:38] <Azelphur> popey: a 7990 would do like 0.74 LTC/day, which is $33.818 a day
[14:38] <Azelphur> given all the current rates
[14:39] <Azelphur> primecoin is profitable too on the CPU
[14:39] <arsen> nice. interesting.
[14:39] <directhex> can you do litecoin/primecoin on a btc asic?
[14:39] <Azelphur> directhex: no.
[14:39] <MartijnVdS> directhex: no, different hashing algorithms
[14:39] <directhex> lame
[14:39] <arsen> i just wanted to buy a BTC asic to get involved.
[14:39] <Myrtti> ooohhhh I love this Bluetooth Audio thing I got from Amazon
[14:40] <Myrtti> AVR was a bit to set up but oh man
[14:40] <arsen> as i guess most are in here - internet children who want to be involved/support any internet community thing - especially one that competes with traditional banking and curreny models :D
[14:40] <popey> Myrtti: which one?
[14:40] <Azelphur> hehe
[14:40] <directhex> pfft. 3d camera on amazon is <£100
[14:40] <Azelphur> arsen: the ultimate/best way to get involved, is to charge BTC for your usual activities
[14:41] <directhex> crazy
[14:41] <Azelphur> run a business? charge BTC. Get involved ;)
[14:41] <Myrtti> popey: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00DSNWM2K
[14:41] <directhex> i paid about £400, and that was discounted
[14:42] <arsen> i guess, Azelphur - i'm a corporate sheep though, i dont really sell much myself.
[14:42] <Azelphur> hehe
[14:43] <arsen> i reckon i could wangle a few weeks of 360cores worth of primecoin/litecoin mining
[14:43] <arsen> is it the clock speed or the cores that's required?
[14:44] <MartijnVdS> arsen: yes.
[14:44] <Azelphur> ^
[14:44] <arsen> yes as in, both? :)
[14:44] <Azelphur> indeed
[14:44] <MartijnVdS> arsen: http://anty.info/primecoin-hardware/
[14:44] <arsen> ah great, thanks.
[14:45] <schwuk> Myrtti: looks good
[14:45] <Myrtti> schwuk: yeah, I'm really happy
[14:45] <Myrtti> don't need to listen to the work playlist with headphones or tinny laptop speakers
[14:46] <Myrtti> was well worth the 34 pounds I paid
[14:46] <directhex> ...... :o
[14:46] <directhex> :)
[14:46] <directhex> :D
[14:46] <directhex> Azelphur, guess what i just found on a usb stick
[14:46] <MartijnVdS> Myrtti: 15.4kg?
[14:47] <Azelphur> directhex: you're rich eh? :)
[14:47] <Myrtti> MartijnVdS: I refuse to respond to that
[14:47] <directhex> Azelphur, waiting for confirmations, but i seem to have 1 BTC in this wallet.dat
[14:47] <Azelphur> grats
[14:47] <Azelphur> that's around  800 squids.
[14:48] <Laney> woot
[14:48] <Azelphur> :)
[14:50] <arsen> nice find, directhex \o/
[14:51] <directhex> ....... or not. more recent transactions suggest i spent it
[14:51] <directhex> 127 weeks of history to sync
[14:51] <arsen> :(
[14:51] <arsen> i tried to buy a chunk of BTC at ~$14 so i could use it to have a laugh buying junk on silkroad. shame i didnt finish the job.
[14:59] <MartijnVdS> arsen: I sold at $100
[15:00] <arsen> hah annoying eh. seems like that's the common story.
[15:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> Not much difference to buying and selling shares.
[15:01] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: true
[15:01] <AlanBell> buy low, sell high
[15:01] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: Waiting for it to go low :)
[15:01] <AlanBell> just with this there is no real notion of what high means
[15:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> When I was in my early 20's I wish I'd stuck a couple of grand in Cisco.
[15:01] <directhex> 0.00800000 in mtgox account i'd ignored as small change
[15:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> They've split untold times and a couple of grand would be worth shedloads now.
[15:02] <SuperMatt> ok, this is bugging me, I've bootstrapped a copy of ubuntu in to a subvolume called @precise (currently mounted in /mnt/@precise). How do I convince update-grub that it needs to scan that location for the new os?
[15:02] <SuperMatt> this is simply so I can have 13.10 and 12.04 in seperate subvols
[15:03] <popey> SuperMatt: ask in #btrfs
[15:03] <popey> dark* is a nice chap
[15:03] <xnox> SuperMatt: no, ubuntu will not boot from alternative subvols.
[15:04] <xnox> SuperMatt: so you cannot change @
[15:04] <xnox> nor @home.
[15:04] <xnox> there is a bug about it.
[15:07] <SuperMatt> oh really?
[15:08] <SuperMatt> I think I might have to resize my disk instead :(
[15:08] <SuperMatt> oh well, that can wait
[15:10] <directhex> 15.24000000 ฿TC at $18.75000
[15:11] <directhex> i guess that's what i cashed out at
[15:18] <awilkins> Ouch
[15:19] <MartijnVdS> $1181, "all time high" according to bitcoinity
[15:19] <awilkins> Why didn't I buy a load of them last week, even
[15:19] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: step into my TARDIS 8-)
[15:20] <awilkins> I don't really need the money, I suppose
[15:20] <awilkins> But really, it would be lovely to be able to have FYM
[15:20] <awilkins> (profanity expansion of this term not permitted in channel)
[15:20] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: you're already rich and upper-crusty?
[15:20] <awilkins> MartijnVdS, Just earning more than I spend
[15:21] <Azelphur> oh btw, if anyone happens to be going to the bitcoin expo in London on Saturday
[15:21] <Azelphur> I'mma be there
[15:21] <MartijnVdS> getting robbed of your private keys? ;)
[15:21] <Azelphur> indeed :)
[15:22] <Azelphur> http://www.bitcoinexpo.co.uk/
[15:23] <Azelphur> I have VIP tickets, company comped \o/
[15:27] <popey> Azelphur: is it still painful getting cash in and out of bitcoin?
[15:27] <Azelphur> popey: yup
[15:28] <Azelphur> banks have a case of the butthurt still
[15:28] <Azelphur> tbh I don't even try to get cash out now, I just spend the coin directly.
[15:28] <penguin42> Azelphur: Now the US has declared them OK does it help?
[15:28] <Azelphur> penguin42: nope, US isn't UK, and the government can say what they want, the banks are still gonna be unhappy.
[15:29] <penguin42> Azelphur: But can you put them in a US bank ?
[15:30] <directhex> lol
[15:30] <Azelphur> penguin42: the coins? nope
[15:30] <penguin42> Azelphur: No, I mean can you sell the coins and liberate $ into a US bank account
[15:30] <directhex> when i first set up bitcoin mining, and got a bunch of people on a tech forum involved, i created a dedicated donation address
[15:30] <Azelphur> penguin42: yea, with some difficulty
[15:30] <directhex> how many transactions have i ever received to that address? 0
[15:30] <Azelphur> hehe
[15:31] <directhex> feel free to donate all the btc to 15QtF8wourtAuqm4kAKCksK3cpS2ge4Dyc :p
[15:31] <Azelphur> :)
[15:31] <directhex> i won't know about it until 96 weeks of history finish downloading, of course
[15:32] <Azelphur> but yea, I do my tesco groceries in BTC, buy all my gadgetry in BTC
[15:32] <Azelphur> no real need to cash out beyond making rent
[15:32] <GentileBen> Still talking about BTC?
[15:32] <GentileBen> Time to cash out, Azelphur.
[15:32] <GentileBen> How much BTC do you have?
[15:32] <Azelphur> GentileBen: 111
[15:33] <Azelphur> give or take a bit.
[15:33] <GentileBen> That's $111,000. Why don't you cash out now?
[15:33] <GentileBen> Don't be greedy Azelphur.
[15:33] <Azelphur> GentileBen: because I know this is just the beginning
[15:33] <Azelphur> and I'm a greedy person ;)
[15:33] <GentileBen> We should've run a BTC mining syndicate in here.
[15:33] <GentileBen> Azelphur, can you afford to loose $111k?
[15:34] <GentileBen> If so, go ahead.
[15:34] <GentileBen> lose*
[15:34] <GentileBen> -_-
[15:34] <Azelphur> GentileBen: sorta, it was all money I made by playing BTC in the first place
[15:34] <Azelphur> if I lost it, I'd have to leave my apartment and downsize considerably
[15:34] <GentileBen> That's not what I meant.
[15:34] <Azelphur> but, that's a risk I accept.
[15:34] <directhex> i regret cashing out at $18
[15:34] <GentileBen> lol directhex
[15:34] <GentileBen> Sorry I lolled at that.
[15:34] <GentileBen> It's trading at $1000 right now.
[15:34] <Azelphur> basically, if I lost it, I wouldn't end up on the street or anything
[15:34] <Azelphur> it'd just suck.
[15:34] <GentileBen> Azelphur, I'd cash out half.
[15:34] <GentileBen> Personally
[15:35] <GentileBen> I'd invest half in traditional stocks.
[15:35] <Azelphur> GentileBen: I have been intending to buy some other stuff to diversify a bit, but not half.
[15:35] <Azelphur> BTC is too valuable
[15:35] <GentileBen> Man I wish I'd have invested in Apple back when their shares were worthless.
[15:35] <MartijnVdS> too big to fail?
[15:35] <GentileBen> Azelphur: as your newly appointed stockbroker, I insist you diversify.
[15:35] <directhex> Azelphur, going to get a virgin galactic ticket? :p
[15:35] <GentileBen> MartijnVdS, Azelphur believes BTC will keep climbing in value.
[15:36] <GentileBen> I think it's going to crash again.
[15:36] <ali1234> of course it's going to crash again
[15:36] <GentileBen> It's going to crash when the banks make sure the Fed are hostile to BTC in the US.
[15:36] <Azelphur> GentileBen: hehe, waiting for provisional drivers license to come through so I can have ID to stock things :)
[15:36] <Azelphur> ali1234: of course :)
[15:36] <GentileBen> ali1234, so there you go.
[15:36] <GentileBen> Cash out just before the crash.
[15:36] <ali1234> ...yeah
[15:36] <GentileBen> Buy more coin just after the crash.
[15:36] <ali1234> so when is the crash?
[15:36] <Azelphur> GentileBen: and then get murdered by the tax man ;)
[15:36] <GentileBen> Rinse and repeat until you're a BTC billionaire.
[15:37] <GentileBen> ali1234, next Tuesday.
[15:37] <ali1234> i managed to predict it to the day last time... lol
[15:37] <directhex> don't cash out to cash, buy palladium!
[15:37] <Azelphur> hehe
[15:38] <Azelphur> but yea, it'll crash, then it'll just build back up again
[15:38] <Azelphur> :)
[15:38] <GentileBen> Azelphur, cash out into gold.
[15:38] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: so, when do you think it'll crash now?
[15:38] <Azelphur> GentileBen: isn't gold bad?
[15:38] <ali1234> no idea at this point
[15:38] <GentileBen> Of course not.
[15:38] <GentileBen> Gold has steadily climbed in value since the 70s.
[15:38] <GentileBen> It's been by far the most reliable investment.
[15:38] <GentileBen> And it's all due to Ron Paul.
[15:39] <GentileBen> Ron Paul built his solid gold rocket ship to take us to the libertarian utopia Planet Mises.
[15:39] <Azelphur> hehe
[15:40] <AlanBell> so how does one run a wine application from the dash?
[15:40] <ali1234> yeah as long as you didn't buy gold in 1980, you are fine
[15:40] <ali1234> http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/506075276bb3f7f35200001a-1020-615/gold-price-since-1970s.png?maxX=590
[15:40] <Azelphur> hehe
[15:40] <directhex> 87 weeks behind, no magic debt-clearing transactions have appeared yet :.
[15:40] <directhex> :/
[15:43] <TheOpenSourcerer> See that dip around 2000-2002? That's when Gordon Brown sold all ours ;-(
[15:45] <bashrc> I do not care about gold.  It is a silly metal.
[15:48] <directhex> if i could turn back time, BTC would be a big part of it :/
[15:56] <awilkins> Selling large gold reserves just after you announce you are going to do it can't really be considered sound fiscal policy
[15:56] <mungbean> can you short BTC?
[15:56] <awilkins> I imagine there are brokers that will let you
[15:57] <awilkins> Shorting is just an agreement to buy Bitcoin in the future
[15:57] <mungbean> and selling it before you have it ;)
[15:58] <awilkins> I think you essentially borrow someone elses, and sell them, and agree to buy some back to fill the deficit
[15:59] <Myrtti> ahhahahahahah https://www.facebook.com/Britishhistory/posts/584353481633074
[15:59] <awilkins> You can usually short a lot more than you can afford to buy
[16:00] <awilkins> But in the case of BTC I'd probably only let you short 2:1 at most
[16:02] <GentileBen> ALL THAT GLITTERS IS NOT GOLD
[16:02] <mungbean> it could be a poo with glitter in
[16:03] <GentileBen> Myrtti, people overlook the fact that the settlers were Christian fundamentalists.
[16:03] <GentileBen> I dunnio why.
[16:03] <awilkins> "God will provide!"
[16:03] <awilkins> "Native Americans were sent by God to bring us corn and turkey! It's a sign! We must kill them and take their land!"
[16:05] <GentileBen> ...and their giant birds.
[16:05] <mungbean> if by fundamentalists you mean people seeking freedom from religious persecution then yes
[16:05] <mungbean> among many others
[16:05] <GentileBen> lol mungbean they were the ones who wanted to persecute everybody else.
[16:05] <mungbean> who just wanted a new life
[16:06] <mungbean> by true definition, a fundamentalist christian would love their enemies
[16:06] <ali1234> that doesn't mean they wouldn't leave the country
[16:07] <ali1234> plus, not changing your beliefs despite being persecuted for them is pretty much the definition of a fundamentalist
[16:07] <GentileBen> "From 1649 to 1660 Puritans in England were allied to the state power held by the military regime, headed by Oliver Cromwell until his death in 1658."
[16:07] <mungbean> and?
[16:07] <GentileBen> For that they deserved to get kicked out.
[16:08] <mungbean> you sir are a muppet
[16:08] <GentileBen> Bunch of traitors they were.
[16:10] <GentileBen> Azelphur can't you use your BTC to fund the search? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-25134289
[16:14] <ali1234> GentileBen: why? as long as the btc isn't found, everyone else is better off
[16:15] <GentileBen> lol
[16:15] <GentileBen> Also taking the coin would be theft by finding.
[16:16] <ali1234> HD isn't going to work after 6 months in a rubbish dump anyway
[16:17] <GentileBen> What if it's an SSD?!
[16:17] <ali1234> maybe. but why would you throw out a SSD
[16:18] <ali1234> maybe the guy just made up the story to get on TV? i wouldn't be surprised
[16:18] <GentileBen> As long as the NAND or platters are intact, he could pay a small sum to get the data recovered.
[16:18] <GentileBen> Well, is there a wallet with exactly that many BTC in it
[16:18] <ali1234> or maybe it's his cover and he still has the coins safe on a paper wallet that's extremely well hidden
[16:19] <GentileBen> Yes
[16:19] <ali1234> you can't tell how much is in a wallet because it contains multiple addresses
[16:19] <GentileBen> Disclosing it is stupid.
[16:19] <GentileBen> Or maybe he thinks somebody will find it for him?
[16:19] <ali1234> that's got to be the least likely theory
[16:19] <GentileBen> Taking the coin would be theft....or would it? He did throw the DHH away.
[16:20] <GentileBen> HDD*
[16:20] <ali1234> taking anything from a rubbish tip is theft
[16:21] <ali1234> even if the HD was blank, it would still be theft
[16:21] <ali1234> technically those BTC are now the property of whoever's dump it is, i believe
[16:22] <GentileBen> ali1234 is it theft from the owner of the tip?
[16:22] <ali1234> yes
[16:23] <penguin42> oh now that's an interesting question, does the tip owner get to own the information on something you throw away
[16:23] <GentileBen> I'm sure there's an exemption. Like if you accidentally throw out a lottery ticket.
[16:23] <ali1234> perhaps
[16:23] <ali1234> or a really valuable painting - that has actually happened and the owners got it back
[16:24] <GentileBen> Hmm that man lives in Newport.
[16:24] <ali1234> original owners that is
[16:24] <GentileBen> Isn't Azelphur from Newport?
[16:24] <ali1234> no
[16:24] <GentileBen> >_>
[16:24] <GentileBen> Yes he is.
[16:24] <ali1234> not even close
[16:25] <ali1234> not even the right country :D
[16:26] <Seeker`> and Azelphur isn't called "James Howell"
[16:27] <GentileBen> Isn't he?
[16:28] <ali1234> also he doesn't look like that guy
[16:29] <mungbean> you're being trolled ali1234
[16:31] <Seeker`> GentileBen: /whois gentileben
[16:31] <SuperMatt> does btrfs support online resizing?
[16:32] <Seeker`> eww, luton, unlucky :
[16:32] <popey> yes SuperMatt
[16:32] <GentileBen> Luton exchange, not Luton house.
[16:32] <popey> up and down
[16:34] <GentileBen> TIL Jack Whitehall has a girlfriend. !!
[16:34] <GentileBen> I always thought he was gay.
[16:34] <SuperMatt> popey: and the resizes the partiton it's on too?
[16:35] <SuperMatt> or just how much space is allocatable?
[16:35] <popey> my drives aren't partitioned
[16:35] <SuperMatt> I think I'll just do my stuff offline
[16:35] <SuperMatt> just in case
[16:40] <Mydim3> hey guys i need help
[16:40] <SuperMatt> we all do, but I hope your problems are easier to fix than mine
[16:41] <Mydim3> lol
[16:41] <Mydim3> im trying to get a mac theme on lubuntu
[16:41] <SuperMatt> ah
[16:41] <SuperMatt> many people have created scripts for that, but you can get a mac-esque theme by installing the elementary theme
[16:42] <Mydim3> the what?
[16:42] <SuperMatt> http://danrabbit.deviantart.com/art/elementary-gtk-theme-83104033
[16:44] <Mydim3> naw ill just try to get a real mac theme
[16:44] <SuperMatt> http://namakutux.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/how-to-install-mac-os-x-lion-theme-on.html
[16:44] <SuperMatt> tried that?
[16:45] <Mydim3> let me see
[16:45] <mungbean> i <3 elementary
[16:47] <Mydim3> thx i think i can take it from here on
[16:47] <SuperMatt> no worries
[16:49] <Mydim3> wait
[16:49] <Mydim3> i installed it
[16:49] <Mydim3> am i supposed to reboot?
[16:50] <Mydim3> ?
[16:50] <Mydim3> nothing is happening
[16:50] <Mydim3> do i reboot for theme?
[16:51] <Mydim3> ?
[16:51] <Mydim3> hello
[16:51] <Mydim3> anyone?
[16:51] <Myrtti> patience is a great gift
[16:51] <Mydim3> do i reboot?
[16:51] <Mydim3> i installed the theme
[16:52] <Mydim3> brb
[16:59] <Mydim3> hey
[17:00] <Mydim3> i tried to install theme but it wont let me
[17:01] <penguin42> look - it's a REALLY bad idea to be installing .deb's from dropbox - I mean **REALLY**
[17:02] <penguin42> Mydim3: Would you install a .exe on Windows from dropbox?
[17:02] <Mydim3> no
[17:02] <Mydim3> i woulden't
[17:03] <Mydim3> wouldn't
[17:04] <Mydim3> hey can anyone help me out?
[17:04] <Mydim3> who has teamviewer here?
[17:05] <Mydim3> hello?
[17:05] <Mydim3> can anyone help me?
[17:06] <davmor2> Mydim3: have you tried enabling the theme?
[17:06] <Mydim3> how?
[17:07] <Mydim3> davmor2 do you have teamviewer?
[17:07] <Mydim3> ?
[17:07] <davmor2> Mydim3: no
[17:08] <davmor2> Mydim3: I'm not sure what tool Lubuntu uses for selecting themes
[17:08] <Mydim3> ok hwo do you enable the tgeme?
[17:08] <Mydim3> how do you enable theme*
[17:08] <davmor2> Mydim3: some where in settings there will be a look and feel option select the theme there
[17:09] <popey> Mydim3: seems nobody here can help. perhaps ask in #lubuntu or #ubuntu ?
[17:09] <davmor2> Mydim3: http://www.maketecheasier.com/theme-up-lubuntu/
[17:10] <Mydim3> i tried that
[17:11] <davmor2> Mydim3: over to #lubuntu then I assume as they should know their stuff :)
[17:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> popey: AlanBell I can;t make either dates but thought you might be interested: http://www.eventimapollo.com/events/detail/brian-and-robins-christmas-compendium-of-reason
[17:44] <directhex> sadface. i thought i'd really found a forgotten btc
[17:44] <Myrtti> who was it that was a Philips shaver expert?
[17:45] <penguin42> directhex: down the back of a sofa?
[17:46] <Myrtti> someone talked me out of getting dsample a shaver last time because they knew the model I was looking at was awful
[17:55] <Mydim3> hey im back
[17:55] <Mydim3> how do you install sh files?
[17:56] <Mydim3> hello?
[17:57] <bashrc> chmod +x <file.sh>
[17:57] <Mydim3> help
[17:57] <bashrc> ./file.sh
[17:58] <Mydim3> says no such file or trajectory
[17:59] <Mydim3> can anyone help me?
[18:00] <Mydim3> hello?
[18:02] <Mydim3> can someone help me?
[18:04] <Mydim3> hel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[18:05] <Mydim3> HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[18:05] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: it would help if you actually knew what you're trying to do
[18:05] <MartijnVdS> !ohmy
[18:05] <Mydim3> im trying to install a sh file
[18:05] <Mydim3> and it won't let me
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: first: isn't there a real package? what are you trying to install? where did you get it? are you sure it's safe (not malware)?
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> !xy
[18:06] <GentileBen> !help
[18:06] <GentileBen> !patience
[18:07] <Mydim3> ok so no there is not a real package second trying to install mac theme third i got from a website fourth i think its safe
[18:08] <Mydim3> you there?
[18:08] <Mydim3> !patience
[18:09] <Mydim3> !hi
[18:09] <Mydim3> !xy
[18:09] <MartijnVdS> !ops
[18:09] <Mydim3> !help
[18:10] <Mydim3> !ops
[18:10] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: It's the first hit on google when I type in your question: "install sh file ubuntu"
[18:10] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: Next time, google it yourself.
[18:10] <Mydim3> im not using ubuntu
[18:10] <Mydim3> im using lubuntu
[18:10] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: Don't worry. It's the same underneath.
[18:10] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: or google it with lubuntu instead
[18:11] <Mydim3> i tried it
[18:12] <Mydim3> im getting a error
[18:12] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: there's even a youtube video explaining!
[18:12] <Mydim3> martijn you have teamviewer?
[18:12] <MartijnVdS> please, search first, then ask.
[18:12] <Mydim3> i did search
[18:12] <Mydim3> AND I GO A ERROR!
[18:12] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: No. And I'm not helping you any more, sorry. If you can't even figure out this, I wonder if you really should be using that software.
[18:12] <Mydim3> GOT*!
[18:13] <Mydim3> dude
[18:13] <Mydim3> i can use the software
[18:13] <MartijnVdS> apparently not
[18:13] <Mydim3> it's just i got a error saying
[18:13] <Mydim3> chmod: cannot access ‘macbuntu.sh’: No such file or directory
[18:13] <MartijnVdS> and what do you think that means?
[18:13] <Mydim3> and the file does exist
[18:14] <Mydim3> that there is not a file named like that
[18:14] <MartijnVdS> is it uppercase maybe? or one letter? The shell is case-sensitive.
[18:14] <Mydim3> and there i a file and it's a .sh file you can even see it clearly in the folde
[18:14] <MartijnVdS> is it in the same directory?
[18:14] <MartijnVdS> i.e. not ~/Downloads while you're in ~
[18:15] <Mydim3> it is in my desktop
[18:15] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: and what's the current working directory in your shell/terminal?
[18:15] <GentileBen> !patience | Mydim3
[18:16] <Mydim3> i don't know
[18:16] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: type 'pwd' and find out
[18:16] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: type 'ls' to figure out which files are in your current directory
[18:16] <MartijnVdS> A basic lesson in UNIXy shells would help you probably.
[18:17] <Mydim3> esktop    Downloads  Pictures  steam.deb  Videos Documents  Music      Public    Templates
[18:17] <Mydim3> desktop    Downloads  Pictures  steam.deb  Videos Documents  Music      Public    Templates
[18:17] <MartijnVdS> so you're in your home directory. Which is not your desktop
[18:17] <MartijnVdS> cd Desktop ("change directory, to Desktop")
[18:17] <Mydim3> no
[18:17] <Mydim3> i pud the file
[18:17] <Mydim3> in my desktop
[18:18] <MartijnVdS> yes, but the current working directory of your *shell* in your *terminal* is your home directory instead of your desktop
[18:18] <Mydim3> do you have team viewer?
[18:18] <MartijnVdS> so you have to change your working directory to your desktop first, by doing: cd Desktop
[18:18] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: I don't see how me having teamviewer is relevant here.
[18:19] <Mydim3> so you can controll my computer and do it yourself
[18:19] <MartijnVdS> But then you won't learn how and why it's not working
[18:19] <MartijnVdS> and it's always better to teach someone *why* something doesn't work (and how to fix it) than to just fix it
[18:19] <Mydim3> i just want it to work i don'twnat to learn
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> In that case, find someone else to help you. I gave you all the puzzle pieces. Some assembly required.
[18:20] <Mydim3> can anyone else help me?
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> 19:17 < MartijnVdS> cd Desktop ("change directory, to Desktop")
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> then the AskUbuntu answer should work again
[18:21] <MartijnVdS> http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/Training/Tutorials/Reference/unixprimer.html
[18:22] <Mydim3> i put cd desktop now what?
[18:22] <MartijnVdS> Mydim3: now you do the chmod etc., like you tried earlier
[18:23] <Mydim3> chmod: cannot access ‘macbuntu.sh’: No such file or directory
[18:25] <Mydim3> its hard to solve that
[18:26] <Mydim3> everything i do on the internet that google tells me to do does not help
[18:27] <Mydim3> ohh wait
[18:27] <Mydim3> the folder is not in the desktop
[18:32] <diddledan> >.<
[18:32] <diddledan> I wake up, log in and see this mess :-po
[18:34] <Mydim3> hey
[18:34] <Mydim3> diddlean
[18:34] <Mydim3> can you help me?
[18:36] <diddledan> I think !ohmy should also link to a picture of George Takai
[18:38] <Mydim3> !ohmy
[18:38] <Mydim3> nope
[18:40] <diddledan> now this raises an important question: the ECDL (European Computer Driving License).. why doesn't it teach commandline awareness?!
[18:40] <Mydim3> what who are u talking to?
[18:40] <diddledan> I get that they want you to be able to put a picture in your properly licensed copy of microsoft word but that doesn't actually teach anything to do with "computer driving"
[18:41] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: I think !fry might have some pertinent words to say about our visitor
[18:42] <Mydim3> !fry
[18:42] <diddledan> oh is that not part of lubotu3 ? maybe it's from #wordpress' docbot
[18:45] <GentileBen> We need ubottu.
[18:45] <diddledan> oovanu
[18:46] <Mydim3> who here has team viewer?
[18:46] <diddledan> Mydim3: teamviewer won't solve your problem
[18:46] <Mydim3> yes
[18:46] <diddledan> PEBKAC
[18:46] <Mydim3> if they know how to fix it we can teamviewer
[18:46] <GentileBen> Mydim3, we all have TeamViewer.
[18:46] <Mydim3> and they controll my computer
[18:47] <GentileBen> We're TeamViewer gurus.
[18:47] <GentileBen> Mydim3, but nobody here wants to help you.
[18:47] <diddledan> does anyone have a trojan I can borrow.
[18:47] <diddledan> I've got teamviewer if so
[18:47] <GentileBen> win32.diddledan
[18:48] <Mydim3> lol
[18:48] <Mydim3> gentile ben
[18:48] <Mydim3> tv with me
[18:49] <GentileBen> No.
[18:49] <GentileBen> I hate you.
[18:50] <Mydim3> why?
[18:50] <diddledan> hate is such a strong word. try despise or loathe
[18:50] <Mydim3> lol
[18:50] <GentileBen> I hold you in the highest (or is that lowest?) level of contempt possible.
[18:51] <Mydim3> cya nobody can help me here
[18:51] <GentileBen> See? My methods work.
[18:52] <diddledan> actually I would guess that pretty much everyone in here could help him. it's just that nobody wants to
[18:52] <diddledan> the tipping factor for most would be: 18:19 < Mydim3> i just want it to work i don'twnat to learn
[18:53] <penguin42> diddledan: Frankly people shouldn't be helping him install debs off dropbox
[18:53] <diddledan> penguin42: I didn't even see that bit
[18:53] <diddledan> I didn't have enough scrollback buffer
[18:56] <diddledan> omg: http://genomejs.com/
[18:57] <diddledan> a conversation between two friends went along the lines of: "Yeah you just gotta pay the $99 to get the information :p" reply "That's... actually incredible.... No, seriously. It used to cost millions to sequence a genome, and they wouldn't just hand you a copy - because there was nothing you could have done with it."
[18:59] <ali1234> there's still nothing you can do with it
[19:01] <penguin42> diddledan: I wonder what that does the FDA stuff with 23andme - i.e if someone just provides a dump of your DNA without providing any interpretation
[19:02] <penguin42> the problem at the moment is it's not a full seuqnece you're getting for $99, it's specific SNPs
[19:04] <ali1234> also, who made the horizontal scrollbar
[19:07] <penguin42> ali1234: mydim3 with a row of !
[19:08] <ali1234> ಠ_ಠ
[19:08] <diddledan> horizontal scrollbar?
[19:08] <penguin42> diddledan: Yes, you know, those things they have on machines that use these WIMP systems to display information
[19:24] <diddledan> penguin42: yeah, I was wondering which horizontal scrollbar, because the site at genomejs.com doesn't have one
[19:24] <diddledan> it's fully-responsive to screen-width
[19:25] <daftykins> diddledan: i think the best part of mydim3 was that he wanted to go through all the hassle to play TF2 on a box that i would daresay would barely draw it @ 640x480 in low detail
[19:26] <diddledan> lol
[19:26] <diddledan> still, we have to entertain ourselves somehow
[19:27] <diddledan> and if it weren't for n0bs we'd have to do something constructive to get that entertainment
[19:27] <daftykins> i try to dissuade these people from their crazy plans
[19:27] <diddledan> (I purposely misspelt n00bs because, well, n00bs at least are trying to learn)
[19:28] <directhex> i should probably point out that the code of conduct forwns upon being a dick, and some of my scrollback is pretty dickish
[19:28] <daftykins> yeah you have a mean side directhex :(
[19:30] <diddledan> as long as the dickishness stays away from big-headedness you're fine. because nobody likes a big-dick-head
[19:32] <diddledan> in a random aside: I fell ashamed to admit that I quite like windows 8/8.1
[19:33] <aquarius> nowt shameful about that. There seems to be a reasonable amount of ideologically-based condemnation of it going on.
[19:33] <aquarius> I didn't quite understand it, myself, when I played with it, but that wasn't for very long.
[19:33] <MartijnVdS> I only like it on my touchscreen laptop
[19:33] <daftykins> i've yet to use it natively, but i've a feeling i'd end up putting a start menu replacement on
[19:34] <MartijnVdS> I've used it on my dad's desktop.. *shudder*
[19:35] <diddledan> I quite like the quick-access menus from the corners
[19:36] <diddledan> and I don't mind the obvious touch-friendliness of it - it still works perfectly fine for my mouse-based interactions
[19:37] <diddledan> the corner-menus however suffer when on a virtual machine
[19:38] <daftykins> yeah i find it hard to get any of that stuff to display
[19:38] <daftykins> in fact, when i first VM'd 8 - i had to google how to shutdown.
[19:39] <diddledan> I think that's where most people's problems stem from - they seem to think that a pc should always behave in established patterns - a lot of the pushback on unity is from the same camp IMO
[19:39] <diddledan> from now-to-eternity
[19:39] <directhex> diddledan, i blogged my thoughts on 8
[19:40] <ali1234> win 8 has a lot of the same problems as unity, so it is hardly surprising that the same people don't like it
[19:40] <ali1234> the biggest problem with both of them isn't that things have been moved - it is that things constantly move around
[19:41] <ali1234> for example the contents of the dash when you search changes from day to day in both of them
[19:43] <diddledan> I don't have a problem with that - it's an attempt at improving relevance
[19:43] <directhex> ali1234, i blogged my thoughts on 8
[19:44] <directhex> http://apebox.org/wordpress/rants/485/
[19:45] <diddledan> heh, I like how it's self-described as a rant
[19:46] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: what else did you expect? ;)
[19:46] <ali1234> well yes, i agree
[19:46] <daftykins> hexy was never dishonest ;)
[19:46] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: he's like mjg59 when blogging ;)
[19:46] <ali1234> but it's worse even if you don't multitask
[19:46] <ali1234> even finding the button to start a program becomes an ordeal
[19:46] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: Win+R
[19:46] <directhex> charms are a much bigger change to windows paradigm than metro
[19:47] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: just like Alt+F2 in unity (instead of just tapping Win :)
[19:47] <ali1234> you can't just remember where the button is, because it's in a different place every day
[19:51] <directhex> ...huh?
[19:51] <directhex> of the many issues with win8, i don't understand where you're seeing this one
[19:52] <directhex> yes it's a unity issue, but win8's button layout doesn't change
[19:52] <MartijnVdS> it's always under the Win key.. or bottom left
[19:53] <ali1234> when you want to run a program you press windows key... and then you get a big mess of buttons
[19:53] <ali1234> just like you do in unity
[19:53] <ali1234> there is almost no difference at all
[19:53] <directhex> ali1234, um... no. no no no, totally and utterly and categorically wrong
[19:54] <diddledan> directhex: here's something that might blow your mind: http://www.stardock.com/products/modernmix/
[19:54] <directhex> the start screen's layout remains exactly as you left it. the only changes occur when you install new apps - their icons are added to the far-right of your start screen, and can be repositioned or unpinned
[19:54] <daftykins> diddledan: lmao
[19:55] <MartijnVdS> directhex: I think his point is that the "start screen" is a completely different context from your desktop
[19:55] <ali1234> no, that's not my point at all
[19:55] <MartijnVdS> directhex: so it's a complete context switch, instead of just launching a new app
[19:55] <daftykins> no he's talking about everything being jumbled up each time you look, i think
[19:55] <directhex> which isn't the case
[19:55] <MartijnVdS> but that doesn't really happen
[19:56] <ali1234> the start screen is a huge mess of things that constantly changes
[19:56] <daftykins> but i've not used it to know
[19:56] <MartijnVdS> only if you install software, like directhex said
[19:56] <directhex> it's the WP7 paradigm. "live tiles"
[19:56] <MartijnVdS> Yeah the "live tiles" change all the time. Remove/disable them.
[19:56] <directhex> ali1234, the "live tiles" display context-sensitive content, but they don't move around. e.g. the "news" live tile will show headlines. but always in the same place
[19:56] <ali1234> yes. or remove/disable the online search lenses in unity. same thing
[19:56] <directhex> totally not the same thing at all
[19:56] <directhex> but whatevs
[19:57] <GentileBen> directhex, the Xbox One interface is miles better than the PS4 interface.
[19:57] <MartijnVdS> I never use the Unity "start screen" thing.. just Alt+F2
[19:57] <GentileBen> PS4 = better hardware, Xbone = better software.
[19:57] <MartijnVdS> that's harder in Windows, because every program is in its own "Program Files" directory, which aren't in $PATH
[19:57] <diddledan> lol, X-Bone
[19:57] <GentileBen> If only they could fuse together to form some kind of super-console which could play Super Mario Galaxy U.
[19:58] <GentileBen> MartijnVdS, doesn't need to be. %programfiles% is a global variable in Windows.
[19:58] <GentileBen> And so is %programfiles(x86)%.
[19:59] <directhex> MartijnVdS, you've been able to "just type" program names in windows since... a few releases ago. definitely 7 and 8.
[19:59] <MartijnVdS> directhex: sure, but not in WIn+R :)
[19:59] <MartijnVdS> directhex: I use Alt+F2 exclusively in Ubuntu
[19:59] <GentileBen> "<ali1234> the start screen is a huge mess of things that constantly changes" <-- not in Windows 8.1. The start screen can't be modified by apps - you have to pin stuff to it intentionally, or install the apps intentionally.
[20:00] <MartijnVdS> never the "windows key" mess
[20:00] <GentileBen> directhex, the biggest problem with 8.0 was desktop apps polluting the Start Screen with installers, help files, web links etc.
[20:00] <hamitron> which can be easily deleted
[20:00] <hamitron> ;)
[20:01] <daftykins> yeah i learn executable names and use super+R myself
[20:01] <GentileBen> You mean Winkey+R
[20:01] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: it's possible to get rid of the messy screen?!
[20:01] <GentileBen> 99.99% of consumer keyboards today ship with at least one Windows key.
[20:01] <daftykins> no i prefer to be platform independant in referring to that key
[20:01] <GentileBen> Full-length keyboards usually ship with two.
[20:02] <directhex> well.actually.cat
[20:02] <hamitron> MartijnVdS, yes.... you tidy it ;)
[20:02] <daftykins> i don't care what logo is on it :) it's super!
[20:02] <directhex> the two windows keys do NOT emit the same keyboard code
[20:02] <GentileBen> MartijnVdS, you upgrade to Windows 8.1, OS of champions.
[20:02] <GentileBen> Um. Yes they do.
[20:02] <ali1234> what about that context menu key?
[20:02] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: Last time I looked, it ordered stuff automagically based on use
[20:02] <GentileBen> There are two Windows keys plus the context menu key on my keyboard.
[20:02] <ali1234> what keycode does that emit in "cross platform" land?
[20:02] <GentileBen> Logitech G15 v2.
[20:02] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: "Menu"
[20:03] <hamitron> MartijnVdS, where?
[20:03] <directhex> the left windows key and right windows key emit different keycodes
[20:03] <GentileBen> Hmm it seems most keyboards only ship with a single Windows key these days.
[20:03] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: Ubuntu's "launch an app" thing you get when you press the "Logo" key (Super? Windows?)
[20:03] <directhex> windows treats them both the same
[20:03] <GentileBen> That's interesting.
[20:03] <GentileBen> Does Ubuntu have voice controls?
[20:03] <hamitron> MartijnVdS, oh, I was meaning windows 8
[20:03] <GentileBen> Ubuntu ON!!!!!!!
[20:03] <hamitron> :)
[20:04] <directhex> it's frustrating. it's not possible to configure gnome with keyboard shortcuts fed from both keys
[20:04] <ali1234> KEY_LEFTMETA and KEY_RIGHTMETA here
[20:04] <GentileBen> How meta.
[20:04] <directhex> due to limitations in XKB
[20:04] <ali1234> but i thought meta was alt?
[20:04] <MartijnVdS> directhex: can't you configure two shortcuts, one for each modifier?
[20:04] <GentileBen> directhex: http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=800
[20:04] <GentileBen> Personally designed by Mark.
[20:05] <ali1234> also the context menu key sends KEY_COMPOSE
[20:06] <directhex> MartijnVdS, nope! 1:1 mapping
[20:06] <MartijnVdS> ali1234:     state 0x10, keycode 135 (keysym 0xff67, Menu), same_screen YES,
[20:06] <GentileBen> Anybody watching the Swansea game?
[20:06] <diddledan> GentileBen: if it's designed by mark, why does it have the windows logo on the logo-key?! surely that should be either ubuntu or tux logo?
[20:06] <directhex> related note: avoid keyboards with only a right key
[20:06] <MartijnVdS> directhex: like most laptops?
[20:06] <directhex> MartijnVdS, they usually have only left
[20:06] <GentileBen> diddledan, but it's in the Canonical store...................
[20:06] <GentileBen> Why would it have a Windows key, full stop?
[20:07] <MartijnVdS> directhex: ah yes.. mine has 2 extra now.. one below the screen and one next to the power button(??)
[20:07] <GentileBen> That's terrible.
[20:07]  * daftykins goes elsewhere until this topic dies down
[20:07] <ali1234> because that's how you open the unity dash
[20:07] <penguin42> haha that is funny, they've gone and put an Ubuntu logo on it but not bothered any further
[20:09] <ali1234> the key fingerprint of bazaar.launchpad.net has changed and i can't clone anything from it
[20:10] <diddledan> ali1234: it's been haxx0red? :-p
[20:10] <ali1234> i hope not
[20:14] <ali1234> rm-rf ~/.bazaar fixed it
[20:14] <ali1234> i wish launchpad would just use git, it's far better in every way
[20:15] <diddledan> git ftw
[20:16] <MartijnVdS> but they've been building it around bzr since '04
[20:16] <diddledan> yeah launchpad is heavily integrated into bzr or vice versa
[20:16] <ali1234> that's not my problem
[20:16] <penguin42> ali1234: Yeh, although I've got to say the way bzr is integrated into lp is impressive
[20:16] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: no, it's canonical's
[20:17] <ali1234> penguin42: not really. it's a pain to browse source on the web, and merge requests are nothing that github doesn't have, (except github's are better)
[20:17] <ali1234> it's also extremely slow
[20:18] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: they had all of that way before github though
[20:18] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_handicap_of_a_head_start
[20:18] <ali1234> again, that doesn't make it good now
[20:19] <penguin42> ali1234: But the merge requests are tied to the bugs quite nicely (I don't know if github has that) - it would be nice if someone had a set of stuff around git and a bug tracker to roll something like that
[20:19] <ali1234> penguin42: it does
[20:19] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: we use Atlassian stuff (hosted jira/bitbucket) at work, those merge requests and bugs etc. are VERY well-integrated
[20:19] <ali1234> it's a bit different... and better
[20:20] <penguin42> ok
[20:20] <ali1234> where launchpad shines is the ability to set bug watches on other bug trackers
[20:20] <ali1234> that's a killer feature really
[20:20] <penguin42> nod yeh that's nice
[20:20] <ali1234> also apport integration
[20:20] <GentileBen> Where do you guys see Ubuntu in two years' time?
[20:20] <GentileBen> Will it have differentiated itself from the other desktop distros?
[20:21] <ali1234> it already has
[20:21] <ali1234> next question
[20:21] <GentileBen> Really?
[20:21] <GentileBen> Oh you mean the tablet interface known as Unity.
[20:21] <ali1234> yes
[20:21] <ali1234> i didn't say it was differentiated in a good way
[20:21] <penguin42> GentileBen: Whether you like it or not you've got to admit it's different
[20:22] <penguin42> snap :-)
[20:22] <GentileBen> Damn you guys are ice cold.
[20:22] <GentileBen> Mark's over there slaving away trying to destroy the Microsoft hegemony
[20:22] <ali1234> no that bug was fixed, didn't you hear?
[20:23] <ali1234> bug 1
[20:23] <GentileBen> It's interesting how projects with pretty much the same base code go in wildly different directions based on internal politics and personalities.
[20:23] <ali1234> oh, did they reopen it?
[20:23] <GentileBen> ali1234, yes, Android now has majority market share IIRC.
[20:23] <MartijnVdS> you can attach a bug to multiple projects
[20:23] <GentileBen> As in, the number of Android devices sold quarter-on-quarter outnumber Windows devices (by a wide margin, I'd imagine).
[20:24] <ali1234> no, it just has a lot of "affects this project" - it's fix released for ubuntu :)
[20:25] <GentileBen> Did any of you read the article on Ars about the MS-IBM relationship and the origins of OS/2 and Windows NT?
[20:25] <penguin42> oh that was an old old mess
[20:25] <GentileBen> Was a fascinating read. http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/11/half-an-operating-system-the-triumph-and-tragedy-of-os2/
[20:25] <penguin42> GentileBen: Did it point out the link to VMS and the way WNT is a one character offset off VMS?
[20:26] <GentileBen> Apparently Parallels was developed initially as a way to run legacy OS/2 apps on modern hardware, for banks.
[20:27] <GentileBen> And OS/2 failed because it ran Windows apps better than Windows itself - so people developed Windows apps which would work on both OS/2 and Windows.
[20:27] <GentileBen> penguin42, no, but they did talk about NT's heritage.
[20:27] <GentileBen> The guy responsible for Windows NT is apparently a genius.
[20:28] <GentileBen> "David Neil Cutler, Sr. (born March 13, 1942) is an American software engineer, designer and developer of several operating systems including RSX-11M, VMS and VAXELN at Digital Equipment Corporation and Windows NT at Microsoft"
[20:29] <GentileBen> He was also a lead dev on the Azure and Xbox One OS teams.
[20:29] <GentileBen> That's quite a CV.
[20:32] <ali1234> yeah but he's 71 years old so he's probably not going to be applying for many jobs
[20:33] <GentileBen> He could live for another 50 years.
[20:37] <daftykins> i wonder if such people prevent change
[20:38] <ali1234> how do i rdriect LOG_DEBUG messages to a different log file with rsyslog?
[20:39] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: man rsyslog
[20:39] <ali1234> "no manual entry for rsyslog"
[20:39] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: /usr/share/doc/rsyslog?
[20:39] <ali1234> found a better way: http://wiki.rsyslog.com/index.php/Filtering_by_program_name
[20:40] <penguin42> ali1234: rsyslog-doc ?
[22:32] <ali1234> !info xbattle
[22:32] <ali1234> !info xbattle precise
[22:35] <diddledan> I wonder why it got removed?
[22:39] <ali1234> i dunno, but bug 1256127
[22:40] <ali1234> most likely it was removed because it is *very* dependent on xhosting being possible. it implements multiplayer by opening multiple X11 displays over the network
[22:40] <ali1234> it was written in a time when people left X11 TCP port open with no security
[22:41] <daftykins> that sounds like a terrible idea
[22:41] <ali1234> terrible and hilarious
[22:41] <diddledan> _that's_ how trinity got the text to appear on neo's computer?!
[22:43] <daftykins> =]
[22:43] <diddledan> I wonder if X11 being open to the world meant that the hamsterdance appeared on random terminal screens during the 90s?
[22:44] <ali1234> usually is was the goat man
[22:45] <diddledan> I'm going to need a link I think
[22:46] <ali1234> trust me you don't
[22:49] <brobostigon> http://www.mypebblefaces.com/apps/437/1180/ :)