[00:15] <skellat> After a no-change backport and playing with it on 12.04, I am warming to whiskermenu in lieu of the default.
[00:23] <ochosi> skellat: good to hear!
[00:28] <eric_the_idiot> ali1234, pushed your patch minus the comments since they aren't needed with the code gone. Thanks!
[00:28] <ali1234> eric_the_idiot: also, i think xfdesktop should not set ESETROOT
[00:29] <eric_the_idiot> yeah, did you want me to push a patch or did you (since you did all the work)?
[00:31] <ali1234> https://github.com/ali1234/xfdesktop/commit/40ffaaef75865271c5d9695711905415ca8fdab1
[00:33] <ali1234> patch may not apply clean due to the debugging stuff i added in a previous patch
[00:34] <ochosi> before i go to bed, i shouldn't read /. but otoh this is a nice read: http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4493819&cid=45543527
[00:35] <ochosi> (some slashdotters seem to love xubuntu :))
[00:45] <eric_the_idiot> ali1234, pushed as well, thanks again.
[00:45] <ali1234> thanks. now we wait for the one guy who uses some really broken terminal emulator to come and complain his fake transparent background doesn't work any more :P
[00:46] <eric_the_idiot> yeah, I noticed in xfdesktop's git logs that esetroot was disabled once before
[00:50] <ali1234> hmm... i'll check that out
[01:54] <ali1234> eric_the_idiot: ok so checking those old commits reminded me of something else that i forgot
[01:55] <ali1234> if the code from commit 160a1fd22 has gone, it should go back in
[07:50] <pleia2> elfy: I did a 64-bit iso test, do I get a gold star? (that's not the thing I had to tell you, still forgot that)
[07:50] <elfy> you get a gold star :)
[07:51] <pleia2> \o/
[07:52] <elfy> but I will take it back again ... 
[07:52] <elfy> :p
[07:53] <Unit193> Could give a copper one, though they might be worth more not too long. :P
[07:53] <pleia2> lol
[07:54]  * elfy is aware of the irony in pushing people to make sure they report tests when he's failing badly at finding time
[07:54] <elfy> but carries on regardless 
[07:54] <pleia2> testing is boring :)
[07:54] <pleia2> so I'm going to try hard this cycle to work it into my day in a non disruptive way, most of the time is just spent waiting anyway
[07:56] <ochosi> yeah, better put on some good music in the background...
[07:56] <ochosi> (preferably elevator music, e.g. the girl from ipanema in an instrumental version looped for hours)
[07:56] <elfy> pleia2: should do exploratory stuff instead then - there's a mail in the sidelines waiting to be sent about that :)
[07:57] <elfy> ochosi has an odd sense of humour ... 
[07:57] <ochosi> elfy: thanks :)
[07:57] <pleia2> elfy: hah, well, the issue is that I have too much to do already :) seems iso testing is low bandwidth enough that I should be able to do it while working on Real Things
[07:58] <pleia2> anyway, xubuntu-website bugs are all tidy now, I should get some sleepies so I can be up in 8 hours for our meeting
[08:03] <elfy> night night :)
[08:03] <elfy> pleia2: testing something like terminal has got to be easier than an iso though ... just saying ;)
[08:07] <Noskcaj> My current hardware is too broken to ISO test, i run 14.04 to try and make up for that
[08:09] <elfy> Noskcaj: well - there's more than iso testing - there's package testing - which sounds just right for that scenario :p
[08:17] <Noskcaj> elfy, I try to do some, but i spend most of my time packaging random stuff
[08:18] <elfy> :)
[09:16] <Noskcaj> Does anyone have time to try and see what's wrong with the extensions in https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/ubuntu/trusty/gthumb/3.2.5/+merge/196783
[09:24] <Noskcaj> It doesn't make it to debian/tmp/ if that changes anything
[10:02] <slickymaster> morning all
[10:03] <ochosi> morning
[10:03] <slickymaster> elfy, ready to be merged: https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/ubuntu-manual-tests/ubuntu-manual-tests/+merge/196989
[10:03] <slickymaster> hi ochosi
[13:43] <brainwash> ali1234: forgot to bookmark the test instruction (ubuntu pastebin), but I've compiled the bgfix2 branch and xfdesktop and the brief black flicker is now gone
[13:43] <ochosi> brainwash: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6486852/
[13:43] <brainwash> so more more flicker madness
[13:44] <brainwash> you said that you were able to reproduce the gtk theme problem of xfdesktop?
[13:44] <brainwash> still hapenns for me
[13:44] <brainwash> happens
[13:45] <ochosi> what did you mean with "more more flicker madness" exactly?
[13:46] <brainwash> no more
[13:46] <brainwash> still a bit sleepy :(
[13:46] <brainwash> but I really like the flicker-free transition
[13:46] <brainwash> feels like using a modern OS
[13:49] <ochosi> :)
[13:49] <ochosi> i hope we can get everything of that into 14.04
[13:50] <ochosi> the xfwm4 patch will probably have to be cherry-picked
[13:50] <brainwash> yeah, luckily we got "plenty" of time left until release
[13:51] <brainwash> so it's not a last minute thing
[13:51] <ochosi> indeed
[13:52] <ochosi> i'd wish 4.12 would be released in time for 14.04
[13:52] <ochosi> but i fear that
[13:52] <ochosi> 's whishful thinking
[14:10] <jjfrv8> some good press here: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/11/expect-xubuntu-14-04-lts?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+d0od+%28OMG!+Ubuntu!%29
[14:15] <ochosi> hehe, light-locker "... fixes a number some outstanding session-locking issues"
[14:15] <ochosi> or wait, does it in fact for the first time really lock lubuntu's session? :D
[14:23] <jjfrv8> ochosi, can I ask you a couple of questions about GTK3 indicators and light-locker documentation?
[14:23] <ochosi> jjfrv8: sure
[14:23] <ochosi> just ask away
[14:23] <jjfrv8> We've got them listed on the blueprint as blocked. Can you enlighten me on what the issues there are?
[14:24] <brainwash> ali1234: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6489704/
[14:24] <ochosi> jjfrv8: well the gtk3 indicator stuff hasn't been uploaded yet
[14:24] <brainwash> why not?
[14:24] <ochosi> and light-locker has been uploaded by an ubuntu-desktop dev, but it's not yet part of our seed
[14:25] <ochosi> brainwash: because no-one has packaged it yet
[14:25] <ochosi> (and don't look at me cause i'm not a packager)
[14:25] <brainwash> but it's an important change
[14:25] <brainwash> it really should be packaged and made available for easy testing
[14:26] <brainwash> they changed the indicator startup mechanics
[14:26] <brainwash> every indicator has an autostart entry now
[14:27] <brainwash> so the workaround cannot be applied anymore (see bug report)
[14:27] <jjfrv8> ochosi, once they are ready for testing, will we work the docs something like we did with parole?  DokuWiki?
[14:28] <ochosi> brainwash: we'll see, if it's a new change it's possible that the indicator-plugin won't work with them anymore (again)
[14:29] <brainwash> ochosi: ok
[14:29] <ochosi> jjfrv8: well, e.g. light-locker won't really need much documentation
[14:29] <ochosi> and the gtk3-indicators will work like the gtk2 indicators
[14:29] <brainwash> ali1234: login -> kill xfdesktop -> kill xfdesktop -> lock screen
[14:30] <brainwash> and gpu going crazy like always after unlocking the screen
[14:30] <ochosi> jjfrv8: well actually the indicator-plugin is an xfce project, so we could do it as we did with parole. in case we don't put it in xubuntu's offline documentation
[14:32] <ochosi> jjfrv8: what would be helpful though is docs for xfdesktop, as there are quite a few changes in that and we ship it
[14:32] <jjfrv8> ochosi, do you think we should remove the light-locker item from the blueprint?
[14:32] <ochosi> jjfrv8: i've talked to eric before and he'd be very grateful if we help him with the docs
[14:32] <ochosi> well the thing is, as long as light-locker works, you won't notice it
[14:32] <ochosi> you go to "lock screen" and you end up at the greeter
[14:33] <ochosi> when you unlock your session from there, light-locker is gone again
[14:33] <ochosi> and that's about it
[14:33] <ochosi> it's supposed to stay "invisible"
[14:33] <jjfrv8> that would work for me :)
[14:33] <ochosi> so not sure what to document there...
[14:35] <jjfrv8> I can add an item for xfdesktop. I assume that would go with the xfce stuff?
[14:35] <ochosi> yeah
[14:36] <ochosi> basically update http://docs.xfce.org/xfce/xfdesktop/start
[14:36] <ochosi> to reflect 4.11
[14:36] <ochosi> you can install the current xfdesktop that we'll want to document from the Xubuntu-dev 4.12 PPA
[14:37] <ochosi> this time, as it is a core component, screenshots will have to be taken with the xfce-theme
[14:37] <ochosi> but xfdesktop is still gtk2, so there won't be the same problems we had with parole
[14:38] <jjfrv8> how would we go about editing the existing version? Would you set up a staging area again?
[14:38] <ochosi> yup, i think that worked well last time
[14:39] <jjfrv8> so you'll take care of that?
[14:39] <ochosi> yup, i can send you and slickymaster or whoever wants to join a link as soon as it's set up
[14:39] <ochosi> i'll probably leave out the current screenshots, as they will have to be updated anyway...
[14:40] <jjfrv8> very good. thanks. I think that's it for now.
[14:41] <ochosi> cool, maybe i'll manage before the meeting today
[14:41] <ochosi> then we can throw the link in the minutes
[14:41] <jjfrv8> !
[14:51] <ochosi> jjfrv8: not sure i'll be here for all of the meeting, so just to be sure, this is the link ;) http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs
[14:52] <jjfrv8> great. we'll get started on it.
[14:54] <ochosi> awesome
[14:55] <ochosi> i think in the advanced part there won't be many changes
[14:55] <jjfrv8> k
[14:55] <ochosi> prefs and usage need the most attention
[14:55] <ochosi> i'll take care of the bugs-section
[14:55] <ochosi> gotta talk to eric and nick first whether they're fine if we do that parole-style
[14:56] <jjfrv8> ok, will wait to hear back on that.
[14:56] <ochosi> knome: i can only be around for the first 20mins of the meeting. would be nice if i could get one talking point then (wallpapers)
[14:57] <ochosi> jjfrv8: eerr, i actually only referred to the bugs-section, i think the rest can be simply done as we've handled it before
[14:57] <ochosi> improve and correct the stuff that's there
[14:57] <ochosi> (well in this case it should be easier as there is already more info available)
[14:57] <jjfrv8> oh, okay
[14:58] <GridCube> meeting is in 1 hour according to my memory
[14:58] <ochosi> actually docs.xfce still points towards xfce4.10, but i think we can set up parallel docs for 4.12 already
[14:59] <ochosi> GridCube: yeah, unfortunately, it's 1hr too late for me today :/
[14:59] <GridCube> :(
[15:00] <ochosi> well, no biggie, luckily we also talk outside of meetings
[15:02] <GridCube> P: true that
[15:29] <ali1234> brainwash: what is on the log when you lock the screen?
[15:30] <ochosi> hey ali1234 
[15:31] <ochosi> i think it would be ideal if we could start testing 14.04 asap with gtk3 indicators, to see whether they still work (who knows, maybe they're changing stuff about them again, like pretty much every cycle...)
[15:32] <ali1234> yes
[15:33] <ochosi> brainwash mentioned something about each indicator having it's own desktop file now
[15:34] <ochosi> eh no, autostart entry
[15:34] <ochosi> (misremembered)
[15:34] <ochosi> although that much should be ok with the current indicator-plugin, iirc
[15:35] <ali1234> that doesn't matter - they use dbus activation
[15:37] <ochosi> actually bluesabre brought up an interesting matter recently
[15:37] <ochosi> he has one of them fancy hidpi displays now on his laptop
[15:37] <ochosi> so the 24px panel is too tiny
[15:38] <ochosi> when we last talked about indicator-icons, i remember you saying that they aren't provided in larger sizes by the service, do i remember that correctly?
[15:41] <ali1234> yeah
[15:41] <ali1234> they are provided as pixmaps afaik
[15:42] <ali1234> actually i'm not sure how that even works with themes
[15:43] <ali1234> ochosi: did you notice on brainwash' log that the second time lightdm runs, it runs on display :0?
[15:44] <ochosi> no, that's quite weird though
[15:44] <ochosi> i mean that's against lightdm's design
[15:44] <ali1234> i should have added a thing that tells you what mode lightdm is in too
[15:44] <ochosi> true, that'd be helpful
[15:44] <ochosi> although you'll see it on the login-button label
[15:44] <ochosi> it either says "login" or "unlock" depending on whether it's in lock-mode or not
[15:45] <ochosi> (if you meant that kind of mode)
[15:45] <ali1234> yeah but i can't see that in the log :)
[15:45] <ochosi> indeed :)
[15:46] <ali1234> so is 14.04 actually viable for testing yet?
[15:47] <GridCube> yes
[15:48] <GridCube> ali1234, http://xubuntu.org/news/help-us-test-xubuntu-14-04-lts/
[15:48] <ali1234> hahaha, that doesn't mean it's viable at all
[15:48] <jjfrv8> ochosi, sorry to interrupt, but have you looked at the sitemap on bluesabre's wiki? It looks like people are dumping stuff there.
[15:49] <ochosi> jjfrv8: oh, no i haven't
[15:49] <ochosi> thanks for the pointer, lemme check that
[15:49] <ochosi> holy crap, you're right :p
[15:51] <ochosi> might be a good idea to lock the wiki down and restrict access to the ones who should use it...
[15:51] <jjfrv8> yup, looks like it.
[15:52] <ochosi> bluesabre will have to do that i think
[15:53] <brainwash> ali1234, ochosi: it's "unlock"
[15:54] <brainwash> booted the system, locking the screen actually worked this time, did a relog, screen corruption again
[15:54] <brainwash> on top of that, the greeter flicker between two themes/wallpapers
[15:54] <brainwash> flickers/switches
[15:55] <brainwash> when I move my mouse
[15:56] <ochosi> quite funky :)
[15:56] <ali1234> what does the log say?
[15:56] <brainwash> I can confirm, that locking the screen does not cause any visual trouble after boot
[15:57] <ali1234> that's pretty much exactly what i would expect to happen if the greeter ran over the existing session
[15:58] <brainwash> give me a moment
[15:59] <knome> pleia2, good morning
[15:59] <ochosi> brb
[15:59]  * skellat is ready for a meeting this time around
[16:00] <pleia2> o/
[16:00] <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
[16:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 28 16:00:37 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[16:00] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[16:00] <knome> pop up your hand up if you're around
[16:00] <pleia2> o/
[16:00] <skellat> o/
[16:00] <jjfrv8> o/
[16:00] <ali1234> o/
[16:01] <micahg> o/
[16:01] <knome> cool :)
[16:01] <knome> ochosi, GridCube, brainwash: hullo
[16:01] <knome> #topic Items carried on
[16:01] <brainwash> o/
[16:01] <knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meeting 
[16:01] <knome> #action knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week 
[16:01] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week
[16:01] <knome> TBD
[16:01] <knome> #action micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation 
[16:01] <meetingology> ACTION: micahg to talk to barry about python2.7/3 situation
[16:01] <knome> micahg, status? :)
[16:02] <micahg> oops
[16:02] <knome> heh, np
[16:02] <micahg> I think I forgot
[16:02] <knome> let's carry that on then
[16:02] <ochosi> o/
[16:02] <knome> #action micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs 
[16:02] <meetingology> ACTION: micahg to upload whiskermenu to xfce PPAs
[16:02] <knome> micahg, ?
[16:02] <ochosi> (sorry, that was a late popping up of the hand)
[16:03] <knome> or was that done by mr_pouit 
[16:03] <skellat> whiskermenu is in archive for trusty
[16:03] <knome> #info Done, whiskermenu is in the archive for trusty.
[16:03] <knome> #subtopic Strategy Document reviewing
[16:03] <micahg> 4.10 PPA times out for me
[16:04] <ochosi> lp ftw
[16:04] <skellat> I've got whiskermenu backported in ppa:skellat/tests
[16:04] <GridCube> o/
[16:04] <skellat> And am playing with it on 12.04.3 at the moment
[16:04] <micahg> I could upload whiskermenu right now if someone tells me which releases and if it's the 4.12 PPA
[16:04] <ochosi> skellat: there should also be an official PPA by the whiskermenu dev
[16:04] <knome> have people had time to look at the new strategy document?
[16:04] <knome> ochosi, micahg: can you get to that after the meeting or in PM; thanks for taking care though :)
[16:05] <GridCube> i have read it before and i don't have anything to say against it
[16:05] <jjfrv8> knome, I have, but it was a while ago. I'm okay with it.
[16:05] <knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2013-November/009413.html
[16:05] <knome> that's the link to the mail that links the new branch
[16:05] <micahg> I have not had a chance to review it
[16:05] <knome> sent on nov 5
[16:05] <knome> micahg, basically:
[16:05] <knome> (and others:)
[16:06] <knome> 1) only allow members of ~xubuntu-team to vote for the new XPL
[16:06] <knome> 2) strip out the process descriptions, move to wiki/Xubuntu/Processes (done already)
[16:06] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes
[16:06] <knome> pleia2 can confirm i'm not tricking you, she worked with the later update with me
[16:07] <pleia2> indeed
[16:07] <pleia2> knome didn't want to be xpl forever, so we left that part out
[16:07] <ochosi> i'm also fine with it
[16:07] <GridCube> yes, as i said, i've read it, i don't see why its needed or relevant, but im ok with the changes
[16:07] <knome> we are much shorter now, and i hope the SD can be much more useful this way for daily development
[16:08] <knome> let's vote.
[16:08] <micahg> I don't want to get any shorter :P
[16:08] <knome> #vote Approve proposed Strategy Document (+1) or not (-1); members of -team can vote
[16:08] <meetingology> Please vote on: Approve proposed Strategy Document (+1) or not (-1); members of -team can vote
[16:08] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[16:08] <ochosi> +1
[16:08] <meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
[16:08] <knome> +0
[16:08] <meetingology> +0 received from knome
[16:09] <jjfrv8> +1
[16:09] <meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
[16:09] <GridCube> +0
[16:09] <meetingology> +0 received from GridCube
[16:09] <pleia2> +1
[16:09] <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
[16:09] <skellat> -1
[16:09] <meetingology> -1 received from skellat
[16:09] <knome> skellat, can you argument?
[16:09] <micahg> +1
[16:09] <meetingology> +1 received from micahg
[16:09] <skellat> We need to loosen up unsuitable packages a little considering the amount of stuff Ubuntu mainline is producing in Python
[16:10] <skellat> Which is an interpreted language
[16:10] <knome> skellat, as we've discussed, we should do that review later after these changes are up
[16:10] <skellat> Okay
[16:10] <knome> what we're voting is "are the changes okay", not "is this the perfect SD"
[16:10] <knome> i would imagine there is always room for improvement
[16:10] <skellat> My vote won't change the outcome anyhow :-)
[16:11] <micahg> mrh
[16:11] <knome> just wanted to ask for arguments
[16:11] <micahg> +0
[16:11] <meetingology> +0 received from micahg
[16:11] <knome> micahg, ?
[16:11] <ochosi> what, so everyone's now +0-ing because their vote doesn't matter? :D
[16:11] <micahg> I had the idea of voting on something I haven't read...I'm not a member of Congress...
[16:11] <micahg> s/had/hate/
[16:11] <knome> seriously,
[16:12] <knome> you have had 23 days to review the changes
[16:12] <skellat> ochosi: Nah, there are already enough positive votes that one negative by me won't block it
[16:12] <pleia2> strategy documents are boring :)
[16:12] <GridCube> ^
[16:12]  * ochosi goes to the closet, gets the big elephant whip and hands it to knome 
[16:12] <ochosi> skellat: i know, i was just kidding ;)
[16:13] <micahg> I think I've worked at least 150 hours in the past 23 days...
[16:13] <knome> i can allow for one more week if micah promises he will get to read the document by that time.
[16:13] <pleia2> micahg: hugs
[16:13] <knome> micahg, i understand, and i'm sorry, but ultimately we need to keep things rolling. the XPL-voting change has been pending for months
[16:13] <ochosi> micahg: ouch, i hope at least your bankaccount reflects that! :>
[16:13] <knome> #endvote
[16:13] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve proposed Strategy Document (+1) or not (-1); members of -team can vote
[16:13] <meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:1 Abstentions:3
[16:13] <meetingology> Motion carried
[16:13] <micahg> ochosi: unfortunately not...
[16:13] <skellat> knome: We'll need to ask lderan to add an "abandonvote" function eventually to meetingology
[16:14] <knome> #info motion not carried. one more week to review.
[16:14] <micahg> knome: you have enuogh votes without me here
[16:14] <lderan> skellat: shall add it :)
[16:14] <knome> lderan, or just make #undo work on votes
[16:15] <knome> not if we want -team quorum.
[16:15] <micahg> give me a couple minutes and I can diff/read
[16:15] <knome> okay
[16:15] <knome> both versions are in the branch
[16:15] <pleia2> thanks micahg 
[16:15] <knome> and i'll make sure i word the vote better
[16:16] <micahg> knome: if you restate your vote, it's an effective #undo
[16:16] <knome> micahg, we're talking about undoing a whole vote, not a single persons
[16:17] <micahg> oh, haha
[16:17] <ochosi> ok folks, i'm out of the door with one foot
[16:18] <ochosi> knome: mind if i say something to the wallpapers and then run off?
[16:18] <knome> #subtopic Something about wallpapers
[16:19] <ochosi> :)
[16:19] <ochosi> #info The wallpaper contest has been running for a short while, but we already have quite a few accepted submissions:
[16:19] <ochosi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/CommunityWallpapers/Accepted
[16:20] <ochosi> while i think it's enough to already call it a success, i'd like to encourage everyone in the team to point to the call for wallpapers again
[16:20] <ochosi> and also encourage artists whose artwork you personally like to contribute
[16:20] <ochosi> so, all the social-media mumbo-jumbo etc.
[16:21] <knome> #action knome and pleia2 to give the wallpaper contest some publicity in social media again
[16:21] <meetingology> ACTION: knome and pleia2 to give the wallpaper contest some publicity in social media again
[16:21] <ochosi> righty, thanks
[16:21] <ochosi> gotta take off, will read the rest when i'm back
[16:21] <knome> ochosi, one sec
[16:22] <knome> ochosi, would your vote be +1 for the SD?
[16:22] <knome> just double-checking.
[16:22] <ochosi> i already voted on that
[16:22] <ochosi> so yeah, still +1
[16:22] <ochosi> bbl
[16:23] <pleia2> thanks ochosi 
[16:25] <pleia2> knome: next!
[16:25] <knome> just a sec
[16:26] <knome> #subtopic Strategy Document reviewing
[16:26] <knome> #vote Approve the proposed changes to the Strategy Document (+1) or not (-1, please argument)
[16:26] <meetingology> Please vote on: Approve the proposed changes to the Strategy Document (+1) or not (-1, please argument)
[16:26] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[16:26] <knome> better wording, eh?
[16:26] <pleia2> +1
[16:26] <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
[16:27] <jjfrv8> +1
[16:27] <meetingology> +1 received from jjfrv8
[16:27] <GridCube> +1
[16:27] <meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
[16:27] <skellat> +1 since we can address the Python-based mainline stuff question at a later time
[16:27] <meetingology> +1 since we can address the Python-based mainline stuff question at a later time received from skellat
[16:27] <knome> +0, want to give the community a word on changes.
[16:27] <meetingology> +0, want to give the community a word on changes. received from knome
[16:27] <knome> there is one more +1 from ochosi
[16:27]  * GridCube is ok with the changes just doesnt understand why they are so important
[16:28] <pleia2> GridCube: I think making it shorter is important so people actually read it
[16:28] <GridCube> well, yes, that is true
[16:28] <pleia2> GridCube: and re: XPL - currently votes come from a completely open team, very few of whom have insight into team workings, this is very odd
[16:28] <knome> ultimately the SD should be a guide in day-to-day development of xubuntu
[16:28] <micahg> +1
[16:28] <meetingology> +1 received from micahg
[16:29] <knome> unless we have a clear idea where we are going, or can't refer to those rules, we're running around like headless chicken and it's really hard for new contributors to jump in and grasp what we are steering our development by
[16:29] <knome> #endvote
[16:29] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve the proposed changes to the Strategy Document (+1) or not (-1, please argument)
[16:29] <meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
[16:29] <meetingology> Motion carried
[16:30] <pleia2> hooray!!
[16:30] <knome> 6 is quorum, 5-0-1 is approved
[16:30] <GridCube> I see, i see, yes, those where the reasons why im OK with the changes, i just fail to see how the old SD is inflecting something on us, even if they have voice, they never choose to make it notice
[16:30] <GridCube> :)
[16:30] <knome> #topic Team updates
[16:30] <GridCube> but anyway, :)
[16:30] <knome> #info ochosi and knome have been working with the wallpaper contest
[16:31] <knome> #info knome and Unit193 have been looking at docs translations
[16:31] <skellat> #info whiskermenu is backported for P, Q, R, and S in ppa:skellat/tests for those who wish to try it
[16:31] <GridCube> can docs be translated trhough launchpad?
[16:31] <pleia2> #info pleia2 completed triaging website bugs this week
[16:31] <knome> #info elfy has been working with organizing QA for the T cycle
[16:31] <knome> GridCube, yes.
[16:31] <micahg> #info whiskermenu is backported in the Xfce 4.10 PPA
[16:32] <pleia2> #info pleia2 put out a call for VM-based tests to determine our actual minimum requirements
[16:32] <micahg> #info Xfce 4.10 PPA backport was done by mr_pouit 
[16:32] <knome> #info you can translate the docs at: https://translations.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs (note that several changes and additions are going to land later this cycle)
[16:33] <skellat> #info Out of vUDS-1311, we may have the opportunity to ask local communities to "adopt a package" for work or testing during this cycle.  LoCo Council hasn't fully set this up yet, though.
[16:33] <knome> skellat, will you follow up on that?
[16:34] <skellat> knome: In what way?
[16:34] <knome> telling us when that's set up.
[16:34] <knome> :)
[16:34] <skellat> knome: Yes
[16:34] <knome> ta
[16:34] <knome> more updates?
[16:34] <GridCube> whats the status of mugshot?
[16:35] <knome> bluesabre, ?
[16:35] <knome> bluesabre, also tell us about menulibre if you're around
[16:37] <jjfrv8> #info after discussion with ochosi, we dropped light-locker and added xfdesktop to the documentation blueprint
[16:37] <GridCube> so no lightdm locking?
[16:37] <knome> i would imagine the goals are still as planned
[16:38] <skellat> GridCube: No need to write it up in documentation
[16:38] <jjfrv8> no, it just doesn't need documentation
[16:38] <knome> and we shouldn't use such technical names in the docs anyway
[16:39] <knome> #topic Announcements
[16:39] <knome> #subtopic There is a new Launchpad team ~xubuntu-qa
[16:40] <knome> #info this team has currently only a social meaning, being the subteam from which people who contributed to QA can ultimately be approved to -team (per the SD)
[16:40] <knome> #info if you think you should be a member in this (moderated) team, poke elfy.
[16:41] <knome> #topic New and emerging items
[16:41] <knome> #subtopic Meeting time reviewing
[16:41] <knome> so,
[16:41] <knome> several people told me in the last days this time isn't best for them
[16:41] <knome> neither it is for me
[16:42] <knome> i'm proposing 18UTC or 19UTC as the new time.
[16:42] <knome> still on thursdays
[16:42] <knome> is this horrible for some?
[16:42] <jjfrv8> np for me
[16:43] <GridCube> what utc is now?
[16:43] <skellat> I *may* have an issue coming up that will prevent meeting attendance in general but I'm not allowed to talk about it in a logged channel
[16:43] <knome> 1643
[16:43] <GridCube> im traveling at that hours to my home
[16:43] <knome> from 18UTC to 20UTC?
[16:43] <GridCube> but im not esential on the developing process so go ahead
[16:44] <knome> i mean, i'm proposing either 18-19 or 19-20 UTC
[16:44] <GridCube> basically, i have 1.5hs of traveling every day
[16:44] <knome> (even 20-21 UTC works)
[16:44] <knome> (for me)
[16:44] <micahg> I'm at work for all of that, so that's fine
[16:44] <GridCube> knome, dont bend the hours for me tho, again, i contribute very little to the developing process 
[16:44] <knome> ok, let's try 19UTC next week.
[16:45] <knome> #subtopic Schedule next week
[16:45] <knome> bah...
[16:45] <knome> #undo
[16:45] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Subtopic object at 0x16ea8d0>
[16:45] <knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting
[16:45] <knome> #info Next meeting: Thu 5 Nov, 19UTC
[16:45] <knome> #endmeeting
[16:45] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 28 16:45:47 2013 UTC.  
[16:45] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-11-28-16.00.moin.txt
[16:45] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-11-28-16.00.html
[16:45] <knome> ta
[16:45] <knome> i'll put up the minutes later
[16:45] <pleia2> thanks knome 
[16:46] <pleia2> let me know when you make changes to SD live, we can social media that too
[16:46] <GridCube> thank s :)
[16:46] <pleia2> on the wiki
[16:46] <knome> i'll do that once i put up the minutes
[16:46] <GridCube> P: also when you will have time for desktop of the week
[16:46] <knome> i'll take at least a short break
[16:46] <knome> GridCube, mhm...
[16:46] <GridCube> mmhmhm
[16:47] <knome> yeah, we're moving during the next 2,5 weeks
[16:47] <knome> we got the keys to the new flat today
[16:49] <knome> bbl
[16:50] <ali1234> ochosi: so, 99% sure that light-locker is running on :0 for brainwash...
[16:51] <jjfrv8> bluesabre, not sure if you've seen it yet but your dokuwiki is getting seriously spammed.
[16:51] <jjfrv8> I wasn't sure when you would be back so I took the liberty of changing the group permissions myself
[16:52] <jjfrv8> I change @ALL and @user to read-only. When you get a chance, I guess you can adjust it to whatever you think is best.
[16:55] <jjfrv8> If you don't have the time to clean out all the crap, let me know, I could probably do it.
[16:56] <jjfrv8> off to eat turkey, bbl
[16:56] <pleia2> enjoy :)
[16:56] <jjfrv8> thanks :)
[17:09] <ochosi> ali1234: light-locker should run on :0, only lightdm-gtk-greeter should run on :1
[17:09] <ali1234> yeah that's what i meant
[17:09] <ali1234> actually reading logs again, it's not doing that
[17:10] <ali1234> brainwash: what actually happens in that log?
[17:10] <ochosi> nice question :p
[17:10] <ali1234> it looks like it runs on :1 then runs again on :0
[17:11] <ali1234> i'm going to add more debugging i guess
[17:13] <ochosi> sounds good
[17:13] <ochosi> it's very odd though
[17:13] <ochosi> there should at least be something about this in the lightdm logs
[17:13] <ochosi> can't really imagine why the greeter would run on :0
[17:14] <brainwash> ali1234: basically it's login greeter -> login -> lock screen -> unlock -> relog -> lock again -> screen corruption
[17:14] <brainwash> ochosi: do you test on trusty?
[17:14] <ochosi> brainwash: no, on saucy
[17:14] <brainwash> well
[17:14] <ochosi> i only have one laptop here atm, and i need it, so i can't bork it right now
[17:14] <brainwash> guess we have an explanation
[17:14] <ochosi> probably..
[17:14] <brainwash> <-- trusty
[17:16] <ochosi> hm, newer version of lightdm maybe?
[17:16] <ochosi> they managed to really mess up lightdm badly during the saucy cycle
[17:16] <ochosi> (it wasn't working properly for most of the cycle)
[17:16] <ochosi> (especially with locking)
[17:18] <brainwash> yeah, newer version https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm
[17:20] <brainwash> so it's time to set up your trusty test environment :P
[17:21] <ochosi> hmpf
[17:21] <ochosi> i think i gotta talk with folks in ubuntu-desktop
[17:21] <ochosi> it should be in their best interest to keep lightdm working as lockscreen with light-locker
[17:22] <ali1234> brainwash: what does "relog" mean?
[17:22] <brainwash> logout and login
[17:22] <brainwash> back to greeter
[17:22] <ali1234> ok, i never tried that
[17:22] <ochosi> ah, that is a problem i can reproduce in saucy
[17:22] <ochosi> i've been meaning to talk to robert about that for a few days
[17:23] <ochosi> it's a lightdm problem, i'm pretty sure
[17:23] <brainwash> ?!
[17:23] <ochosi> already scanned my logs, but couldn't find anything about it
[17:23] <ali1234> so login -> lock -> unlock -> logout -> login -> lock -> unlock
[17:23] <brainwash> yes
[17:23] <ali1234> and then the screen corrupts?
[17:23] <ochosi> yeah, pretty much
[17:23] <brainwash> yes
[17:23] <ali1234> ok, i will investigate
[17:24] <ali1234> i'll have to install this all on another machine though
[17:24] <ochosi> lemme try again, just for the fun of it
[17:24] <ochosi> i think it also happens with the current greeter
[17:24] <ochosi> brb
[17:24] <ali1234> probably, nothing i changed should cause it :P
[17:24] <ali1234> might make it more likely/obvious though
[17:24] <brainwash> I actually thought that it happens all the time, but not today, only after relogging once
[17:25] <brainwash> and the xfdesktop theme problem is some sort of race condition
[17:25] <ochosi> actually i have a different problem :)
[17:26] <ochosi> after i log out and log in again, i can't lock the session anymore with lightdm
[17:26] <ochosi> sorry brainwash, i misremembered
[17:26] <ochosi> neither with light-locker nor with dm-tool
[17:26] <brainwash> why not?
[17:26] <ochosi> so light-locker is not the bad guy
[17:26] <ochosi> nothing happens
[17:26] <brainwash> lightdm log files?
[17:27] <brainwash> maybe it is related
[17:27] <ochosi> yeah, maybe
[17:27] <ochosi> but as i said, can't find any evidence of why nothing happens
[17:27] <ochosi> there's simply "no response"
[17:29] <ochosi> ali1234: while your at testing stuff, could you try to reproduce that as well? startup > log out > log in > try to lock
[17:29] <ali1234> isn't that the same thing?
[17:29] <ochosi> in saucy locking doesn't work anymore for me in this precise (pun intended!) case
[17:29] <ochosi> well, brainwash actually locks his session one time in between
[17:29] <ochosi> otherwise it's the same
[17:29] <ochosi> i don't think that makes a difference, but who knows..
[17:30] <brainwash> just test both cases
[17:35] <ochosi> ok, gotta go
[17:35] <ochosi> ttyl
[17:50] <elfy> best laid schemes of mice and men
[17:50] <elfy> missed the meeting then 
 #info Next meeting: Thu 5 Nov, 19UTC  Everyone get your Tardis ready!
[18:39] <knome> what?
[18:39] <knome> oh BOO
[18:39] <knome> :P
[18:39] <Unit193> GridCube: I agree but with me, I'm the same way (not needed generally in meetings.)
[18:49] <GridCube> :) and :(
[18:50] <GridCube> at least i try to give those who develope the little voice of an user
[19:20] <Unit193> Oh, and forgot to say: http://goo.gl/IH5Su5
[20:54] <ali1234> hmm... yeah there's definitely somethin wrong with light-locker
[21:04] <ali1234> i don't get corruption and i don't get a simple failure to lock...i get a black screen with blinking cursor and if i move the mouse around it changes on where window borders would be
[21:05] <ali1234> exact same steps to reproduce
[21:06] <ali1234> same result whether i lock the screen during first login or not
[21:07] <ali1234> login, logout, login, lock screen -> xorg crashes
[21:07] <ali1234> maybe two light-lockers are running?
[21:14] <ali1234> here's the xorg logs from display :1
[21:14] <ali1234> this is when it works: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6491291/
[21:14] <ali1234> this is when it doesn't:http://paste.ubuntu.com/6491290/
[21:17] <ali1234> [   845.319] (EE) intel(0): [drm] failed to set drm interface version: Permission denied [13]. <- this seems to be the problem. the xserver on :1 can't start
[21:17] <ali1234> would be interested to see logs from other drivers
[21:41] <slickymaster> good night all
[21:41] <Unit193> Howdy.
[21:43] <pleia2> started getting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports back into shape
[21:43] <slickymaster> Unit193, :)
[21:44] <pleia2> figured standard format each month will be list blog posts/announcements, <<Include>> meeting links and copy Team updates from meeting minutes
[21:57] <knome> pleia2, or include team updates as well?
[21:58] <knome> for starters that might be a bit messy, but ultimately we can teach the team to be more accurate and clean on their #infos for team updates
[22:11] <knome> pleia2, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes#Wiki_maintaining
[22:11] <knome> pleia2, feel free to add the team reports stuff there
[22:15] <knome> pleia2, meeting minutes are up
[22:16] <knome> pleia2, strategy document updated
[22:17] <knome> (am i flooding your inbox again?)
[22:49] <pleia2> knome: thanks
[23:03]  * pleia2 social medias the strategy document
[23:03] <knome> mhm
[23:03] <knome> want me to twitter or will you handle that as well?
[23:03] <pleia2> I can do it :)
[23:03] <knome> oki
[23:05] <pleia2> knome: want to write a quick post to -devel about it?
[23:05] <knome> meh
[23:05] <knome> ok
[23:05] <pleia2> hehe
[23:09] <ali1234> this is extremely weird
[23:09] <ali1234> light-locker isn't even running
[23:15] <knome> pleia2, should be out
[23:15] <pleia2> :)
[23:16] <pleia2> knome: still awake? want to look at the mailing lists for a few minutes?
[23:16] <knome> sure :)
[23:16] <pleia2> we had talked about discarding unsubscribed messages rather than moderating them
[23:16] <knome> yep
[23:17] <pleia2> still think this is a good idea?
[23:17] <knome> pretty much, though
[23:17] <knome> i think we could have a bit more relaxed policy
[23:17] <knome> approve the first message, but send the user a mail asking to subscribe
[23:18] <knome> (and cc the other mods/admins)
[23:18] <pleia2> so not auto-discarding then
[23:18] <knome> that would be a bit rude
[23:18] <pleia2> indeed :)
[23:18] <knome> if it's a single post, and they get an answer, and then go and say thank you (unsubscribed), i think we can let that slip
[23:19] <pleia2> ok then, so nothing to do really, just social change in our behavior
[23:19] <knome> (though we should still tell them they should subscribe)
[23:19]  * pleia2 nods
[23:19] <knome> but if it goes on, we should stop approving
[23:19] <knome> and let the users register
[23:19] <pleia2> ok, works for me
[23:20] <knome> that's currently a bit short page ;)
[23:20] <knome> now that we discussed this...
[23:20] <knome> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Toolbox/Messages
[23:21] <knome> but we could collect a page full of ready-written messages
[23:21] <pleia2> ah, nice
[23:21] <knome> including the mail to non-subscribed people
[23:21] <knome> or actually we should simply make that part of the Processes page, i think
[23:22] <knome> i'm also thinking the Processes-page is getting a tad long
[23:22] <knome> maybe we should look at splitting it to subpages at some point
[23:23] <knome> pleia2, btw, are you sure teamreports is good on "update on release" ? :P
[23:23] <knome> shouldn't that be "update monthly"
[23:23] <pleia2> oops
[23:24] <knome> hehe
[23:24] <knome> np
[23:39] <ochosi> ali1234: well if light-locker isn't running, then that's really odd
[23:40] <ali1234> i know right
[23:40] <ali1234> makes no sense at all
[23:40] <ali1234> it just never runs
[23:40] <ochosi> ?
[23:40] <ochosi> and when you manually start it?
[23:40] <ochosi> how did you install it?
[23:40] <ochosi> daily PPA?
[23:40] <ali1234> sudo make install
[23:40] <ali1234> after purging the ppa package
[23:40] <ochosi> well i'm not sure, but it should put itself into /etc/xdg/autostart
[23:41] <ochosi> what was wrong with the ppa?
[23:41] <ali1234> it has no debugging
[23:41] <ochosi> did you build with systemd support?
[23:41] <ali1234> not if you have to do anything special for that
[23:41] <ochosi> :/
[23:41] <ali1234> i did: sudo apt-get purge light-locker && ./autogen.sh && make && sudo make install
[23:41] <ochosi> if you still have consolekit installed (which used to be the case in saucy i think), you probably get consolekit
[23:42] <ali1234> then: sudo service lightdm restart
[23:42] <ali1234> then logged in and did light-locker-command -l
[23:42] <ochosi> well, rather check what you compiled it with
[23:42] <ochosi> yeah, after sudo make install it isn't running
[23:42] <ali1234> then i unlocked the screen and checked syslog. light-locker did not run at any point during any of this
[23:42] <ochosi> you have to either reboot or restart your session
[23:42] <ochosi> or you start it manually the first time after installing
[23:42] <ali1234> i did: sudo service lightdm restart
[23:43] <ali1234> this restarts the session (and xorg)
[23:43] <ochosi> lightdm!=light-locker
[23:43] <ochosi> right
[23:43] <ochosi> that's what you meant
[23:43] <ochosi> hm, dunno how/whether the xdg-autostart stuff works when you just compile without prefix
[23:43] <ochosi> it might end up in the wrong place
[23:43] <ochosi> so you might have to manually start it in that case
[23:43] <ochosi> or add it to the autostarted apps in the session
[23:44] <ali1234> i should note that nothing at all changed in the behaviour, between using the PPA and using the self-built one
[23:44] <ali1234> in both cases the x server fails to start on :1 if you've logged out and logged in again. restarting lightdm clears the error
[23:44] <ochosi> so you never tried to start the process yourself?
[23:45] <ochosi> yeah, but that doesn't sound like a problem with the locker
[23:45] <ali1234> no. i assumed it was working because light-locker-command -l worked
[23:45] <ochosi> cause logging out and in again is purely lightdm's stuff
[23:46] <ali1234> yes. and this is probably what causes the corruption too
[23:46] <ali1234> it would be interesting to see what happens with a different greeter. like say unity
[23:47] <ochosi> yeah, easy to test
[23:48] <ali1234> "something" must be responsible for starting the second X server
[23:48] <ali1234> somewhere something does exec("/usr/bin/xorg", ...);
[23:48] <ali1234> i'm not clear on whether it is lightdm, light-locker, or consolekit, or something else
[23:49] <ochosi> i'm talking to robert_ancell atm in #ubuntu-desktop if you wanna join
[23:53] <slickymaster> cy tomorrow guys