| Unit193 | Speaking of slicky, I see he's pending on -docs, does knome, Unit193, or someone want to add him? | 00:08 |
|---|---|---|
| knome | +1 for that. | 00:08 |
| Unit193 | Want me to press the button? I think it's pretty clear by the merges, translations, and talk here that he's already quite involved. | 00:12 |
| knome | if you are next to the button, please do | 00:12 |
| bluesabre | big red button! | 00:17 |
| ali1234 | brainwash, ochosi: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/1256150 | 02:05 |
| ubottu | Ubuntu bug 1256150 in xorg (Ubuntu) "Xorg guest session fails to start if the user has logged out and logged in again" [High,Confirmed] | 02:05 |
| ali1234 | brainwash: this is your corruption bug, it's not even specific to xubuntu, affects unity too :( | 02:05 |
| ali1234 | it seems to affect all graphics drivers, but in different ways | 02:06 |
| Unit193 | bluesabre: Where there any changes in the metas or settings I was supposed to look at? | 05:12 |
| Unit193 | knome: Can we consider dropping usc to recommends? | 05:12 |
| knome | Unit193, yes. | 07:06 |
| knome | Unit193, that's probably even a sane thing to do, but let's run it through a meeting first | 07:06 |
| Unit193 | I had no idea why it was a dep, and a tad annoying. I bet I'll still lose xubuntu-desktop on upgrades, but no reason to have USC as a hard dep. | 07:07 |
| knome | yep | 07:08 |
| === elfy_ is now known as forestpiskie | ||
| elfy | knome: changed the meeting to 1900UTC as per yesterday16:45 <knome> ok, let's try 19UTC next week. | 07:42 |
| === Pwnna- is now known as Pwnna | ||
| ochosi | ali1234: thanks for reporting the bug | 09:46 |
| ali1234 | morning :) | 09:46 |
| ochosi | morning ali1234 :) | 09:49 |
| ochosi | finally debugging something resulted in work for other ppl, not us ;) | 09:49 |
| ali1234 | hahaha, not if we want it to get fixed | 09:50 |
| ochosi | well i believe in this case we have higher chances of getting it fixed than with xfce-bugs | 09:52 |
| slickymaster | morning all | 09:52 |
| ochosi | at least robert is aware of it, so that means *something* | 09:52 |
| ochosi | hey slickymaster | 09:52 |
| slickymaster | morning ochosi | 09:52 |
| ochosi | slickymaster: talked to jack yesterday about docs for xfdesktop, also settled everything with upstream about that. wanna cooperate on that again? | 09:53 |
| ochosi | basically the process would be like with parole | 09:53 |
| slickymaster | ochosi: of course, no need to ask | 09:53 |
| slickymaster | I see, in bluesabre dokuwiki, right? | 09:53 |
| slickymaster | ochosi: Am I assuming correctly that you're referring to http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs ? | 09:55 |
| slickymaster | hey, wth, there's seems to be something really wrong with bluesabre dokuwiki, it's full of crap | 09:56 |
| ochosi | yup | 09:57 |
| ochosi | got spammed | 09:57 |
| ochosi | we gotta clean it up first and set restrictions.. | 09:57 |
| ochosi | bbiab | 09:57 |
| slickymaster | elfy: ping me when you'll have a chance | 10:02 |
| ali1234 | ochosi: i'm looking at the logs more carefully... | 11:22 |
| ochosi | ali1234: seeing stuff that was overlooked before? | 11:22 |
| ali1234 | works: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6491291/ | 11:22 |
| ali1234 | fails: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6491290/ | 11:22 |
| ali1234 | yes, absolutely | 11:22 |
| ali1234 | open the two pastes and ctrl-f VT | 11:23 |
| ali1234 | when it fails it tries to open :1 on VT 7 instead of VT 8 | 11:23 |
| ali1234 | which pretty much explains exactly what we observe | 11:24 |
| ochosi | yeah | 11:29 |
| ochosi | that's quite odd | 11:29 |
| ochosi | "it" being lightdm? | 11:32 |
| ali1234 | yeah this is a lightdm bug for sure | 11:32 |
| ali1234 | it's telling Xorg to use VT7 when that VT is already in use | 11:32 |
| ochosi | mhm | 11:36 |
| ochosi | better add that to the bugreport, i hope robert will be able to fix that sooner rather than later.. | 11:37 |
| ali1234 | yeah, added | 11:37 |
| ochosi | slickymaster, jjfrv8_: bluesabre and me will clean up the staging wiki, just one note for xfdesktop: | 11:57 |
| ochosi | when there are new functions (and there will be a few) in the 4.11/4.12 release, we should add a <note></note> to state that this function is only available in version X | 11:58 |
| ochosi | so, i think the goal is to 1) improve the current documentation and 2) add documentation for the 4.12 release (which you can test from here: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/xfce-4.12/ | 11:58 |
| slickymaster | ochosi: ok, I'm assuming that will be me and jjfrv8_ working on it | 11:58 |
| ochosi | xfdesktop 4.11.1 is what you want | 11:59 |
| ochosi | slickymaster: yeah, i think we'll be the same team | 11:59 |
| ochosi | i'll coordinate stuff with upstream and will also take care of the bugreports section | 11:59 |
| ochosi | also, never change a winning team ;) | 11:59 |
| slickymaster | ochosi: we're talking on a Trusty box, right? | 12:00 |
| ochosi | nah, that doesn't matter much | 12:00 |
| ochosi | xfdesktop will look the same here and there | 12:00 |
| ochosi | you can use saucy if you prefer that | 12:00 |
| slickymaster | well as I already several trusty VM for testing, I'll preserve one for this | 12:00 |
| ochosi | cool | 12:01 |
| ochosi | then it's also easier to check the difference between the current xfdesktop version (4.10) and the new one | 12:01 |
| ochosi | in case you're unsure what changed | 12:01 |
| slickymaster | let me just talk with jjfrv8_ first to split the work between us, so we'll be both on the same page | 12:01 |
| ochosi | sure, no rush | 12:02 |
| slickymaster | you were saying "in case you're unsure what changed" but you didn't finish your thought | 12:02 |
| ochosi | actually i finished the sentence from before ;) | 12:04 |
| ochosi | having a vbox with xfdesktop4.11 and the normal install with 4.10 enables you to check the diffs easier, in case you're unsure | 12:04 |
| ochosi | (so now it's in one line again ^ ;)) | 12:05 |
| slickymaster | ok, got it ;) | 12:05 |
| ochosi | i can tell you asmuch that much of the change is to be found in the settings-app | 12:05 |
| ochosi | you can also check the release-emails, those give you a good idea of what to look out for | 12:05 |
| slickymaster | where's the mailing list? | 12:06 |
| ochosi | one sec, i can dig up the release mails | 12:06 |
| slickymaster | take your time | 12:06 |
| ochosi | ignore the bugfixes i guess: http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2013-September/000285.html | 12:07 |
| ochosi | here are the 4.11.1 release notes: http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2013-November/000289.html | 12:08 |
| slickymaster | ochosi: tk, I'll go through it before starting | 12:08 |
| ochosi | cool | 12:08 |
| ochosi | hope we can clean up the wiki soon and restrict access | 12:09 |
| slickymaster | yeah, it's a complete mess, as it is now | 12:09 |
| ochosi | need to wait for bluesabre to do that, but i think he's probably still knocked out from thanksgiving :) | 12:09 |
| slickymaster | he's probably digest all the turkey he had ;) | 12:15 |
| davmor2 | ochosi: I don't think he would thank you for knocking him out ;) | 12:18 |
| slickymaster | davmor2: well, ochosi can always argue that what knocked him out was the turkey, not him ;) | 12:19 |
| ali1234 | ochosi: does the light-locker ppa or any of the other xubuntu ppas have a newer version of lightdm than what's in saucy? | 12:19 |
| davmor2 | slickymaster: well hitting someone with a Turkey probably would knock them out, especially if it was still frozen :D | 12:20 |
| ochosi | ali1234: neither light-locker PPA nor the other xubuntu PPAs afaik | 12:23 |
| ali1234 | hmm... interesting | 12:23 |
| ochosi | well it could be a regression that no-one was aware of | 12:24 |
| ochosi | so many things broke in the 1.7 cycle.. | 12:24 |
| ali1234 | well apparently downgrading to 1.8 fixed the bug | 12:26 |
| ali1234 | but 1.8.4 is in saucy | 12:26 |
| slickymaster | davmor2: :D | 12:26 |
| ali1234 | maybe he got the number wrong | 12:26 |
| ochosi | who got the wrong number? | 12:29 |
| ochosi | (i'm also on 1.8.4 and i have the bug) | 12:30 |
| ali1234 | nobody got the wrong number apparently | 12:35 |
| ali1234 | however we do something a bt different: we use "lock" not "guest session" to reproduce | 12:35 |
| brainwash | ali1234: so any idea how to debug the gtk theme problem? delaying the launch of xfdesktop fixes it for me 100%, usually it fails like 75% directly after login | 12:37 |
| ali1234 | ugh... no | 12:37 |
| ali1234 | probably need to fix the order things get launched by xfsession | 12:37 |
| ali1234 | i did reproduce it btw | 12:37 |
| brainwash | but how? | 12:37 |
| ali1234 | even though xfdesktop has a huge delay already here | 12:37 |
| ali1234 | make it run xfsettingsd or whatever before xfdesktop | 12:38 |
| brainwash | ahh | 12:38 |
| brainwash | before or after? | 12:38 |
| ali1234 | whatever thing is missing | 12:38 |
| ali1234 | before? | 12:38 |
| brainwash | before sounds like the normal behavior | 12:39 |
| ali1234 | i dunno.... i haven't looked into it at all | 12:39 |
| ali1234 | and i have more bugs queued ... like https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10384 | 12:39 |
| ubottu | bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10384 in General ""Always on top" windows steal focus after notification is displayed." [Normal,New] | 12:39 |
| ali1234 | that one is really annoying | 12:39 |
| brainwash | but it's a new problem since xfdesktop 4.11 | 12:39 |
| ali1234 | well yes... 4.11 has lots of changes | 12:39 |
| ali1234 | may also be related to realizing the window without displaying it, though i don't see how | 12:40 |
| brainwash | just got a nice idea, how about letting the desktop icons blend in smoothly? as of now they pop in instantly | 12:55 |
| brainwash | guess I'll file a wishlist report | 12:55 |
| brainwash | the actual problem is that xfdesktop might start delayed and therefore the desktop icons are shown after a small time frame after login | 12:59 |
| brainwash | I would consider this a sort of "flicker" | 13:00 |
| ochosi | bluesabre: wanna merge ali1234's greeter branch? | 16:09 |
| bluesabre | ali1234: would you consider your lightdm-gtk-greeter branch merge-ready? | 16:09 |
| ochosi | ::) | 16:09 |
| ali1234 | yes | 16:09 |
| ochosi | then let's get on with that | 16:09 |
| ali1234 | but make sure not to pull the -debug one by accident | 16:09 |
| ochosi | yeah, or you could file a merge-request ;) | 16:09 |
| ali1234 | i'll do that | 16:10 |
| bluesabre | :) | 16:11 |
| ali1234 | i want to rename the branch anyway | 16:11 |
| ochosi | good :) | 16:11 |
| bluesabre | ochosi: merged, positioning, hotkeys, and xembed branches from kalgasnik | 16:15 |
| ochosi | what, there was a "merged" branch too? ;) | 16:16 |
| ochosi | thanks bluesabre | 16:16 |
| bluesabre | :( | 16:16 |
| ochosi | looking forward to tomorrow's build of the daily package | 16:16 |
| bluesabre | looks like he is working on a new branch too | 16:16 |
| ochosi | maybe we should do a point-release or something | 16:17 |
| bluesabre | users_switching | 16:17 |
| ali1234 | MR done | 16:17 |
| ali1234 | i think i know what causes this lightdm bug too | 16:17 |
| bluesabre | ali1234: merged | 16:18 |
| bluesabre | what do you think it is? | 16:18 |
| ali1234 | i think it's a race condition | 16:18 |
| ali1234 | there's a callback for when the server shuts down | 16:18 |
| ali1234 | it appears to be getting called after the new server started, so then the vt gets unref'd | 16:19 |
| bluesabre | ah | 16:20 |
| ochosi | hmm | 16:20 |
| ochosi | wonder when that was introduced... | 16:20 |
| ali1234 | i see a commit which is basically "rewrite VT handling for mir", my money's on that one | 16:21 |
| bluesabre | :) | 16:21 |
| ali1234 | but i'm not quite there yet | 16:21 |
| ochosi | yup, sounds very probable | 16:21 |
| ochosi | hm, systemd replacing VT consoles... at some point the kernel's job will be only to load systemd | 16:28 |
| ali1234 | ah... | 16:31 |
| ali1234 | i know exactly the bug :) | 16:31 |
| ali1234 | ochosi: at some point they'll just throw out the kernel and make systemdos | 16:31 |
| ochosi | yeah probably :) | 16:31 |
| ali1234 | systemdos is actually pretty good name for an os | 16:32 |
| ochosi | yeah, i was first misreading it | 16:32 |
| ochosi | for "system dos" | 16:32 |
| ochosi | cool name :> | 16:32 |
| brainwash | system denial of service? | 16:32 |
| brainwash | bad name :P | 16:32 |
| ali1234 | kids today... | 16:32 |
| ali1234 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_DOS | 16:32 |
| ochosi | yeah, that's the one i meant | 16:33 |
| ali1234 | ochosi, brainwash: please test http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/lightdm/vt-double-unref-fix/revision/1847 | 17:05 |
| ali1234 | also anyone else with corruption :) | 17:05 |
| ali1234 | do not make install with this - you must build a deb, or it will mess up your system | 17:06 |
| ochosi | wanna just throw this in a PPA? | 17:06 |
| ali1234 | you can do... hopefully it gets merged | 17:06 |
| ali1234 | the fix is really simple and obvious when you know where to look | 17:06 |
| ali1234 | for easy testing just do "debuild" and then copy or symlink the built lightdm | 17:08 |
| ali1234 | works for me anyway :) | 17:10 |
| ali1234 | i'm gonna MR it | 17:11 |
| ochosi | micahg, mr_pouit, bluesabre, knome and everyone else, these are ubuntu's gtk3 plans for this cycle: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2013-November/004343.html | 17:13 |
| ochosi | my 2cents: our themes are already supporting gtk3.10, so we're safe here. and they're trying to get better support for some gnome3.10 apps (e.g. evince) back to non-gnome DEs, which is good for us | 17:14 |
| ochosi | also they'll think about CSD patches, but we'll see whether that'll help us too | 17:14 |
| micahg | ochosi: I think that's all fine | 17:15 |
| ochosi | yeah, me too | 17:15 |
| ochosi | i just felt i'll update you since i hang out in #ubuntu-desktop more these days | 17:16 |
| ochosi | micahg: while you're around, feel like quickly packaging the indicator-plugin? =) | 17:16 |
| micahg | not around for too long today, might be able to tomorrow night | 17:18 |
| ochosi | bluesabre: shall we do a -dev release of the greeter at some point in the near future? | 17:23 |
| ochosi | slickymaster, jjfrv8: i've almost cleaned up the staging site after this spam-attack, as we've locked it down now, feel free to commence with xfdesktop whenever you have time | 17:56 |
| slickymaster | ochosi: got it | 17:58 |
| slickymaster | jjfrv8: ping me when you'll have a chance | 17:58 |
| slickymaster | ochosi: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/xfce-4.12/ ins not yet available for Trusty as far as I can see | 18:11 |
| ochosi | slickymaster: oh, hm :/ will have to talk to mr_pouit or micahg then to update that PPA | 18:12 |
| slickymaster | either that or I'll setup a new box with saucy | 18:12 |
| ochosi | well might take them a bit to update the PPA | 18:12 |
| slickymaster | no worries I'll prepare a box with saucy, never mind that | 18:13 |
| ochosi | ok great | 18:17 |
| ochosi | but anyway, that PPA needs to support saucy (at least for xfwm4) | 18:18 |
| ochosi | other components will land in saucy anyway | 18:18 |
| slickymaster | yeah, you're right | 18:18 |
| slickymaster | bbl | 18:44 |
| === pleia2_ is now known as pleia2 | ||
| ali1234 | ochosi: about gtk 3.10 & themes... how does that work with the CSD? | 21:10 |
| ali1234 | do they pick up the metacity themes automatically somehow? | 21:10 |
| ali1234 | so do we require themes that have both xfwm4 & metacity compatibility? | 21:10 |
| ali1234 | and if so... do shimmer themes actually have that? | 21:11 |
| ochosi | ali1234: no, the CSD are drawn entirely by Gtk | 21:34 |
| ochosi | but yeah, our themes have metacity support too | 21:34 |
| ochosi | in case someone wants to use compiz | 21:34 |
| ali1234 | ok, but something has to tell them what they are supposed to look like... | 21:34 |
| ochosi | yeah, our themes do | 21:34 |
| ochosi | we have support for it already in saucy | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | so there's a new, third, way to define what window decorations look like? | 21:35 |
| ochosi | yeah, i can link you to the css code if you like | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | heh... not really | 21:35 |
| ochosi | basically it is an undecorated window | 21:35 |
| ochosi | with the top bar (=gtkheaderbar) holding a close-button and potentially more | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | but it means maintaining three versions of every theme now? | 21:35 |
| ochosi | no, it's integrated | 21:36 |
| ochosi | it doesn't hurt to have it defined | 21:36 |
| ali1234 | but it has to be kept in sync with the metacity theme and the xfwm4 theme | 21:36 |
| ochosi | it's just an additional feature of our themes, doesn't obstruct anything else | 21:36 |
| ochosi | yeah | 21:36 |
| ochosi | although that isn't hard, as we've initially created the three in sync | 21:36 |
| ochosi | and CSD use gtk colors anyway | 21:37 |
| ochosi | it's only a few lines, https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/blob/master/gtk-3.0/gtk-widgets.css#L3424 | 21:37 |
| ali1234 | not if the other themes are complicated... | 21:41 |
| ochosi | the problem with CSD in xfce seems to be that somehow those gnome-apps don't inform the window-manager that they should be displayed undecorated | 21:42 |
| ochosi | and i'm a bit afraid that ubuntu will get some patch done for compiz, but we'll have to find a solution for ourselves | 21:42 |
| ali1234 | well if that happens i'll port it | 21:43 |
| ali1234 | but i doubt it will work that way | 21:43 |
| ali1234 | far more likely: they make an environment setting to turn it off, like scrollbars and global menu | 21:43 |
| ochosi | hm, not sure whether there's a fallback mode for the CSD | 21:43 |
| ali1234 | how can there not be? it doesn't do anything | 21:43 |
| ochosi | well it would mean re-arranging some parts of the app | 21:44 |
| ochosi | i mean UI parts | 21:44 |
| ochosi | from the gtkheaderbar to something else, i suppose a toolbar | 21:44 |
| ali1234 | the best hedge is still to just find some other apps | 21:45 |
| ochosi | what is a bit annoying is that it re-introduces inconsistency... | 21:45 |
| ochosi | hm, i haven't found a good evince-replacement yet | 21:45 |
| ochosi | it really is the part of gnome i currently wouldnt like to drop | 21:45 |
| ochosi | i might get something done on the file-roller-replacement front (reviving squeeze) | 21:45 |
| ochosi | anyway, they said they'll probably patch evince to fit into the rest of the apps for 14.04 | 21:46 |
| ali1234 | can you just style the CSD to be 0px? | 21:46 |
| ochosi | no, it's a whole bar | 21:47 |
| ochosi | have you seen it before? | 21:47 |
| ali1234 | yes | 21:47 |
| ali1234 | i mean 0px high | 21:47 |
| ali1234 | i just make it go away | 21:47 |
| ochosi | well, what would then happen to the functionality/buttons? | 21:48 |
| ali1234 | it would break | 21:48 |
| ochosi | yeah, or go missing | 21:48 |
| ali1234 | and it would be just tough | 21:48 |
| ochosi | :) | 21:48 |
| ali1234 | what functionality is in the CSD anyway? | 21:48 |
| ali1234 | afaik it's just a close button | 21:49 |
| ali1234 | which would be re-added by the window manager | 21:49 |
| ochosi | well, the functionality depends on the app | 21:49 |
| ali1234 | yeah | 21:49 |
| ali1234 | so in that case the best way to deal with it is to make apps that use it and don't provide a fallback break, and then let the app developers deal with that | 21:50 |
| ochosi | i mean it would be interesting to know whether the gtkheaderbar can simply be used with a decoration and the close-button be hidden | 21:50 |
| ochosi | well so far there aren't many apps that affect our default install | 21:51 |
| ochosi | evince is the only one i think | 21:51 |
| ali1234 | is it even going to happen this cycle? | 21:52 |
| ochosi | not sure | 21:52 |
| ochosi | and if it would, i'm not sure ubuntu folks would sync it | 21:52 |
| ochosi | they're also quite sceptical of CSD and the stuff they introduce | 21:52 |
| ali1234 | quite right. | 21:52 |
| ali1234 | how does CSD handle this case? the app freezes and stops accepting input: how do you close the window? xkill? | 21:53 |
| ochosi | hm, i guess wayland would have to handle that somehow | 21:54 |
| ochosi | cause the client can't help itself anymore and is alone in the solitary world of wayland | 21:54 |
| ochosi | no window-manager to talk to | 21:54 |
| ali1234 | right. wayland is a crap idea all round really | 21:54 |
| ochosi | imo, CSD is mainly a reaction to wayland | 21:55 |
| ochosi | or, to be exact: it's a prerequisite in a way | 21:55 |
| ochosi | the design of wayland says that clients should decorate their own windows | 21:55 |
| ali1234 | except it isn't: wayland compositors can do SSD if they want | 21:55 |
| ochosi | yeah | 21:55 |
| ochosi | the fun thing is that i still remember the presentation 2,5 years ago (almost 3 now) at fosdem where kristian høgsgard talked about CSD | 21:56 |
| ochosi | the first question from the audience was: well, wouldn't that open the door to inconsistency? | 21:56 |
| ochosi | and he was like "yeah, humm..." | 21:56 |
| knome | there is always inconsistency in this imperfect world | 21:57 |
| ochosi | and the follow up was about the fact that not even QT and GTK could settle on where to put the OK | Cancel buttons in windows | 21:57 |
| ali1234 | that whole talk was like "look at how bad X11 is. yeah i know i wrote most of it. sorry. but this time we'll get it right, promise" | 21:57 |
| ochosi | yeah, then again, X doesn't seem that bad | 21:57 |
| ali1234 | it really isn't, unless you're trying to make an android-style UI with all animations and very little actual functionality beyond playing video and webpages | 21:58 |
| ochosi | knome: sure, but leaving something like where and how to integrate something like a "window-close" button takes me back to the windows days, where each app looked and behaved differently... | 21:59 |
| knome | i guess... | 21:59 |
| ali1234 | and they still do | 22:00 |
| ochosi | man, ubuntu wiki crapping out on me again... | 22:00 |
| knome | what do you mean by again? | 22:00 |
| knome | did you mean: still | 22:00 |
| knome | btw, meh, i might have some downtime on internet connectivity next month | 22:01 |
| ali1234 | all nokia's windows software is QT now and has a completely custom skin that looks a bit like OS X, but not really. and it's incredibly slow, and when it freezes (which it does all the time) you can't close or minimize it or anything | 22:01 |
| knome | ali1234, isn't that going a bit offtopic for this channel? :) | 22:01 |
| ali1234 | no. it's what happens when you allow CSD | 22:02 |
| ali1234 | if this catches on i will start writing belligerent software that always looks different to your desktop, no matter how you have configured it | 22:03 |
| ochosi | knome: hehe | 22:03 |
| knome | sounds like a constructive way to react to work others did | 22:03 |
| ochosi | knome: well i'm updating the submissions page with some instructions on how to submit | 22:04 |
| knome | ochosi, fyi, i have Xubuntu/.* subscribed ;) | 22:04 |
| ochosi | yeah, i know | 22:04 |
| ochosi | this was more an: review if you want ;) | 22:05 |
| ochosi | (=an invite for review) | 22:05 |
| knome | i'll let you know if you did anything stupid ;) | 22:05 |
| ochosi | ;) | 22:08 |
| Unit193 | ochosi: Tip, do what I do, set everything as a minor change. ;) | 22:15 |
| knome | Unit193, tip: i'll get the notifications anyway | 22:15 |
| ochosi | yeah, i saw that last time i set something as minor change | 22:17 |
| knome | woot, | 22:20 |
| knome | all ever finland-released donald duck comics on a website | 22:20 |
| ochosi | hope these step-by-step instructions will help ppl to get it done | 22:20 |
| knome | oh wait, this is ot | 22:20 |
| knome | err, devel | 22:20 |
| ochosi | :) | 22:21 |
| ochosi | ali1234: hm, so what about that panel-preset app we talked about recently? | 22:21 |
| ali1234 | well, i thought about it | 22:21 |
| ali1234 | it needs careful UI design | 22:22 |
| ali1234 | we don't want to trash somebody's careful set up panel | 22:22 |
| ochosi | well, as long as we make a backup of it... | 22:22 |
| ali1234 | actually implementing the backend should be simple | 22:22 |
| ali1234 | yeah but backups can get overwritten if you run it twice... | 22:22 |
| astraljava | Not if you make each of them unique. | 22:23 |
| ali1234 | then you need a big list of all backups | 22:23 |
| knome | or save anything from the last 24 hours. | 22:24 |
| ali1234 | it's not impossible but someone has to think about it and design a UI | 22:24 |
| knome | and allow users to "save" configurations | 22:24 |
| ochosi | i think keeping *one* backup is best | 22:24 |
| ochosi | and then additionally allowing saves | 22:24 |
| astraljava | Hmm... well it's just a list of files, and maybe timestamps. How could that be a huge one? | 22:24 |
| ochosi | astraljava: well what blows is that you can't really easily show a "preview", so you'll never know what you get | 22:25 |
| ali1234 | just make a screenshot | 22:25 |
| astraljava | That might be true. | 22:25 |
| knome | sure, but the backups aren't mean to be used unless you fail | 22:25 |
| ochosi | ali1234: you mean automatically each time a configuration is loaded? | 22:25 |
| ali1234 | no, each time one is saved | 22:25 |
| ali1234 | in the save file | 22:25 |
| ochosi | sounds fancy | 22:26 |
| ali1234 | it's easy | 22:26 |
| knome | well that might make it a bit larger | 22:26 |
| ochosi | yeah, but not by much | 22:26 |
| ochosi | the screenshot can be scaled down to 256x256 | 22:26 |
| knome | a square? | 22:26 |
| ali1234 | well it might make the presets 10x bigger, but they'd still only be like 100k | 22:26 |
| ochosi | if it's fullsize, you can't easily browse a list of those :) | 22:26 |
| knome | no | 22:26 |
| ochosi | knome: just tossing around numbers | 22:27 |
| ali1234 | you ony show one at a time | 22:27 |
| ochosi | ok, i'll fire up inkscape and see what i can come up with | 22:27 |
| knome | i'm wondering how useful a small preview for the panel layout is | 22:27 |
| ochosi | for the presets we could do illustrations | 22:28 |
| ochosi | that could be useful | 22:28 |
| knome | especially if you have say 2 full-hd monitors and then we push that into 256 px wide image... | 22:28 |
| knome | illustrations? | 22:28 |
| slickymaster | good night all | 22:28 |
| ochosi | well symbolic ways of showing the panel layout | 22:28 |
| knome | ultimately i think we should allow people to change the images in the saved sets | 22:28 |
| ochosi | that shouldn't be too hard | 22:28 |
| knome | not necessarily by UI, but should be easily done by editing files | 22:28 |
| ali1234 | the "preset" would just be a .tgz with a xml file and a jpg inside... | 22:29 |
| knome | ali1234, that works for my purposes | 22:29 |
| ali1234 | the xml would be identical to what you see in the xfce configuration dirs | 22:29 |
| knome | yep, makes sense | 22:30 |
| knome | +1 for creating such an app. | 22:30 |
| ochosi | hm, i'm wondering: if you take a preset, e.g. "gnome2", then you modify it by adding the weather plugin | 22:32 |
| ochosi | that wouldn't be the preset anymore, but become a new layout the next time you open the app | 22:32 |
| knome | yes | 22:32 |
| knome | it should be: | 22:32 |
| ochosi | so somehow it has to detect that change | 22:32 |
| knome | gnome2 (modified) | 22:32 |
| knome | diff | 22:32 |
| knome | or just saying "custom" is fine | 22:33 |
| ali1234 | that might be tricky without blacklisting certain keys | 22:33 |
| ali1234 | cos some stuff always changes | 22:33 |
| ochosi | well, we could always keep a "current" item in the list | 22:33 |
| knome | current works | 22:33 |
| ochosi | so if you apply the gnome2 preset, it simply becomes "current" | 22:33 |
| knome | yep, sounds fine | 22:33 |
| ochosi | only question is what happens to whatever used to be current before | 22:33 |
| knome | dump it if it ain't saved. | 22:34 |
| ochosi | or make it the backup | 22:34 |
| knome | well actually | 22:34 |
| ochosi | and dump the backup each time the current gets moved to backup | 22:34 |
| knome | i don't think there should be a "current" item | 22:34 |
| knome | just a "load layout" list and "save current layout" | 22:35 |
| knome | because if there is a "current" item, wouldn't that be always selected? | 22:35 |
| ochosi | hm true | 22:35 |
| knome | (unless we allowed to undo until you closed the app) | 22:35 |
| ochosi | that would simplify things greatly | 22:35 |
| knome | so eg. you choose gnome2 | 22:36 |
| knome | and that's shown as the selected item | 22:36 |
| ali1234 | heh... i just found the easter egg in xfce-panel | 22:36 |
| ochosi | ali1234: tik-tak-toe? | 22:36 |
| ochosi | :) | 22:36 |
| knome | but ultimately, i think showing "current" is just redundant | 22:37 |
| ochosi | yeah i guess | 22:37 |
| knome | there could be "last saved" | 22:37 |
| ochosi | well if you save, you will have to give it a name | 22:37 |
| knome | if we saved the layout every time you shut down or sth | 22:37 |
| knome | yep. | 22:38 |
| ochosi | ali1234: what can we do about checking what plugins are needed and which ones might be missing? | 22:38 |
| ali1234 | not much - but if they're missing they just won't show up in the panel | 22:38 |
| ochosi | hmkay | 22:38 |
| knome | i think that's fine | 22:38 |
| knome | just tell the user they might be missing items if they have removed necessary packages | 22:39 |
| ochosi | yeah, i think the whole thing loses its meaning if we restrict ourselves to internal plugins.. | 22:39 |
| ali1234 | i;m only using internal + places + indicators | 22:39 |
| knome | yep | 22:39 |
| ochosi | we should make sure to install all needed ones by default | 22:39 |
| knome | ochosi, "needed" ?:) | 22:39 |
| ochosi | well, needed for the presets we ship | 22:40 |
| ali1234 | we can try to install packages with consolekit, but that'sa bit more involved | 22:40 |
| knome | sure. | 22:40 |
| ochosi | let's start with the simple version | 22:40 |
| ali1234 | (like gstreamer does for codecs) | 22:40 |
| ochosi | yeah, in fact that doesn't work too well ) | 22:40 |
| knome | i don't think we should worry about probing what layout somebody is using, or what applets are installed | 22:40 |
| knome | at least, not in the first version, as ochosi said | 22:40 |
| ali1234 | well, version 1.0 is going to be "write some code that can add and delete panels at all" | 22:41 |
| ochosi | yup | 22:41 |
| knome | ali1234, when do you have a PoC? ;) | 22:41 |
| ali1234 | what language for this? | 22:41 |
| ochosi | so the UI will be a listview and a load/save button..? | 22:41 |
| ochosi | i guess that's up to you | 22:41 |
| knome | yep, if you write it, you decide | 22:41 |
| ochosi | but whatever works well with xfconf i guess | 22:42 |
| knome | just argument well ;) | 22:42 |
| ali1234 | well, it will be either python or C then, depending on which i can get working more easily | 22:42 |
| knome | since xfce is in C (as you most probably know), that could be preferred. | 22:42 |
| ochosi | at least if we wanna push it upstream... | 22:43 |
| ali1234 | i'll probably do a python version just to get familiar with the API, then rewrite it in C | 22:43 |
| ochosi | sweet | 22:43 |
| ochosi | ali1234: so do you actually need a mockup now? | 22:43 |
| ali1234 | no | 22:43 |
| ochosi | or at all, at this stage | 22:43 |
| ali1234 | no UI on 1.0... | 22:43 |
| ochosi | yup | 22:44 |
| ali1234 | ok, jfyi the idea of copying over the xml and restarting the panel and settings daemon doesn't work at all | 22:52 |
| ochosi | ali1234: how come? | 22:52 |
| ali1234 | for some reason the settings are saved somewhere else | 22:52 |
| ochosi | weird | 22:52 |
| ali1234 | even if you kill the panel and the settingsd, delete the xml, and then restart everything... panel is unchanged | 22:52 |
| ochosi | i was pretty sure it's all in the xml in the xfconf-per-channel folder | 22:53 |
| ali1234 | it is | 22:53 |
| ali1234 | but it just keeps coming back somehow | 22:53 |
| ochosi | well deleting the xml is probably not the ideal approach | 22:53 |
| ochosi | maybe it has a cache or something | 22:53 |
| ochosi | or a backup of sorts | 22:53 |
| ali1234 | must do | 22:53 |
| ochosi | that's actually quite good to know :) | 22:54 |
| ali1234 | we could fork off xfconf-query... | 22:57 |
| ali1234 | it has all the apis | 22:57 |
| ali1234 | unless we need to go through specific panel apis, that is | 22:57 |
| ali1234 | here's a crazy idea... | 22:59 |
| ali1234 | what if we put presets into the "new panel" button | 22:59 |
| ali1234 | so instead of just making an empty panel, it offers you stuff like "Gnome 2 style top panel" | 22:59 |
| ochosi | oh | 23:00 |
| ochosi | that'd be awesome | 23:00 |
| ochosi | pretty cool idea | 23:00 |
| ali1234 | that way we don't need to back up user's panel | 23:00 |
| ochosi | i mean you can't save panels that way | 23:00 |
| ali1234 | well, maybe you can | 23:00 |
| ochosi | but it's still a quite sweet idea | 23:00 |
| knome | well you can save panels but backing up the configuration | 23:00 |
| knome | that could work. | 23:00 |
| ochosi | ali1234: what sucks a bit is that the wrapper3 branch still hasn't been merged to master yet in the xfce-panel | 23:37 |
| ochosi | although nick said he would look at that soonish | 23:37 |
| ochosi | i guess the changes you proposed don't conflict with the changes of that branch | 23:37 |
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