[00:08] <Unit193> Speaking of slicky, I see he's pending on -docs, does knome, Unit193, or someone want to add him?
[00:08] <knome> +1 for that.
[00:12] <Unit193> Want me to press the button?  I think it's pretty clear by the merges, translations, and talk here that he's already quite involved.
[00:12] <knome> if you are next to the button, please do
[00:17] <bluesabre> big red button!
[02:05] <ali1234> brainwash, ochosi: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/1256150
[02:05] <ali1234> brainwash: this is your corruption bug, it's not even specific to xubuntu, affects unity too :(
[02:06] <ali1234> it seems to affect all graphics drivers, but in different ways
[05:12] <Unit193> bluesabre: Where there any changes in the metas or settings I was supposed to look at?
[05:12] <Unit193> knome: Can we consider dropping usc to recommends?
[07:06] <knome> Unit193, yes.
[07:06] <knome> Unit193, that's probably even a sane thing to do, but let's run it through a meeting first
[07:07] <Unit193> I had no idea why it was a dep, and a tad annoying.  I bet I'll still lose xubuntu-desktop on upgrades, but no reason to have USC as a hard dep.
[07:08] <knome> yep
[07:42] <elfy> knome: changed the meeting to 1900UTC as per yesterday16:45  <knome> ok, let's try 19UTC next week.
[09:46] <ochosi> ali1234: thanks for reporting the bug
[09:46] <ali1234> morning :)
[09:49] <ochosi> morning ali1234 :)
[09:49] <ochosi> finally debugging something resulted in work for other ppl, not us ;)
[09:50] <ali1234> hahaha, not if we want it to get fixed
[09:52] <ochosi> well i believe in this case we have higher chances of getting it fixed than with xfce-bugs
[09:52] <slickymaster> morning all
[09:52] <ochosi> at least robert is aware of it, so that means *something*
[09:52] <ochosi> hey slickymaster 
[09:52] <slickymaster> morning ochosi 
[09:53] <ochosi> slickymaster: talked to jack yesterday about docs for xfdesktop, also settled everything with upstream about that. wanna cooperate on that again?
[09:53] <ochosi> basically the process would be like with parole
[09:53] <slickymaster> ochosi: of course, no need to ask
[09:53] <slickymaster> I see, in bluesabre dokuwiki, right?
[09:55] <slickymaster> ochosi: Am I assuming correctly that you're referring to http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs ?
[09:56] <slickymaster> hey, wth, there's seems to be something really wrong with bluesabre dokuwiki, it's full of crap
[09:57] <ochosi> yup
[09:57] <ochosi> got spammed
[09:57] <ochosi> we gotta clean it up first and set restrictions..
[09:57] <ochosi> bbiab
[10:02] <slickymaster> elfy: ping me when you'll have a chance
[11:22] <ali1234> ochosi: i'm looking at the logs more carefully...
[11:22] <ochosi> ali1234: seeing stuff that was overlooked before?
[11:22] <ali1234> works: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6491291/
[11:22] <ali1234> fails: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6491290/
[11:22] <ali1234> yes, absolutely
[11:23] <ali1234> open the two pastes and ctrl-f VT
[11:23] <ali1234> when it fails it tries to open :1 on VT 7 instead of VT 8
[11:24] <ali1234> which pretty much explains exactly what we observe
[11:29] <ochosi> yeah
[11:29] <ochosi> that's quite odd
[11:32] <ochosi> "it" being lightdm?
[11:32] <ali1234> yeah this is a lightdm bug for sure
[11:32] <ali1234> it's telling Xorg to use VT7 when that VT is already in use
[11:36] <ochosi> mhm
[11:37] <ochosi> better add that to the bugreport, i hope robert will be able to fix that sooner rather than later..
[11:37] <ali1234> yeah, added
[11:57] <ochosi> slickymaster, jjfrv8_: bluesabre and me will clean up the staging wiki, just one note for xfdesktop:
[11:58] <ochosi> when there are new functions (and there will be a few) in the 4.11/4.12 release, we should add a <note></note> to state that this function is only available in version X
[11:58] <ochosi> so, i think the goal is to 1) improve the current documentation and 2) add documentation for the 4.12 release (which you can test from here: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/xfce-4.12/
[11:58] <slickymaster> ochosi: ok, I'm assuming that will be me and jjfrv8_ working on it
[11:59] <ochosi> xfdesktop 4.11.1 is what you want
[11:59] <ochosi> slickymaster: yeah, i think we'll be the same team
[11:59] <ochosi> i'll coordinate stuff with upstream and will also take care of the bugreports section
[11:59] <ochosi> also, never change a winning team ;)
[12:00] <slickymaster> ochosi: we're talking on a Trusty box, right?
[12:00] <ochosi> nah, that doesn't matter much
[12:00] <ochosi> xfdesktop will look the same here and there
[12:00] <ochosi> you can use saucy if you prefer that
[12:00] <slickymaster> well as I already several trusty VM for testing, I'll preserve one for this
[12:01] <ochosi> cool
[12:01] <ochosi> then it's also easier to check the difference between the current xfdesktop version (4.10) and the new one
[12:01] <ochosi> in case you're unsure what changed
[12:01] <slickymaster> let me just talk with jjfrv8_ first to split the work between us, so we'll be both on the same page
[12:02] <ochosi> sure, no rush
[12:02] <slickymaster> you were saying "in case you're unsure what changed" but you didn't finish your thought
[12:04] <ochosi> actually i finished the sentence from before ;)
[12:04] <ochosi> having a vbox with xfdesktop4.11 and the normal install with 4.10 enables you to check the diffs easier, in case you're unsure
[12:05] <ochosi> (so now it's in one line again ^ ;))
[12:05] <slickymaster> ok, got it ;)
[12:05] <ochosi> i can tell you asmuch that much of the change is to be found in the settings-app
[12:05] <ochosi> you can also check the release-emails, those give you a good idea of what to look out for
[12:06] <slickymaster> where's the mailing list?
[12:06] <ochosi> one sec, i can dig up the release mails
[12:06] <slickymaster> take your time
[12:07] <ochosi> ignore the bugfixes i guess: http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2013-September/000285.html
[12:08] <ochosi> here are the 4.11.1 release notes: http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2013-November/000289.html
[12:08] <slickymaster> ochosi: tk, I'll go through it before starting
[12:08] <ochosi> cool
[12:09] <ochosi> hope we can clean up the wiki soon and restrict access
[12:09] <slickymaster> yeah, it's a complete mess, as it is now
[12:09] <ochosi> need to wait for bluesabre to do that, but i think he's probably still knocked out from thanksgiving :)
[12:15] <slickymaster> he's probably digest all the turkey he had ;)
[12:18] <davmor2> ochosi: I don't think he would thank you for knocking him out ;)
[12:19] <slickymaster> davmor2: well, ochosi can always argue that what knocked him out was the turkey, not him ;)
[12:19] <ali1234> ochosi: does the light-locker ppa or any of the other xubuntu ppas have a newer version of lightdm than what's in saucy?
[12:20] <davmor2> slickymaster: well hitting someone with a Turkey probably would knock them out, especially if it was still frozen :D
[12:23] <ochosi> ali1234: neither light-locker PPA nor the other xubuntu PPAs afaik
[12:23] <ali1234> hmm... interesting
[12:24] <ochosi> well it could be a regression that no-one was aware of
[12:24] <ochosi> so many things broke in the 1.7 cycle..
[12:26] <ali1234> well apparently downgrading to 1.8 fixed the bug
[12:26] <ali1234> but 1.8.4 is in saucy
[12:26] <slickymaster> davmor2: :D
[12:26] <ali1234> maybe he got the number wrong
[12:29] <ochosi> who got the wrong number?
[12:30] <ochosi> (i'm also on 1.8.4 and i have the bug)
[12:35] <ali1234> nobody got the wrong number apparently
[12:35] <ali1234> however we do something a bt different: we use "lock" not "guest session" to reproduce
[12:37] <brainwash> ali1234: so any idea how to debug the gtk theme problem? delaying the launch of xfdesktop fixes it for me 100%, usually it fails like 75% directly after login
[12:37] <ali1234> ugh... no
[12:37] <ali1234> probably need to fix the order things get launched by xfsession
[12:37] <ali1234> i did reproduce it btw
[12:37] <brainwash> but how?
[12:37] <ali1234> even though xfdesktop has a huge delay already here
[12:38] <ali1234> make it run xfsettingsd or whatever before xfdesktop
[12:38] <brainwash> ahh
[12:38] <brainwash> before or after?
[12:38] <ali1234> whatever thing is missing
[12:38] <ali1234> before?
[12:39] <brainwash> before sounds like the normal behavior
[12:39] <ali1234> i dunno.... i haven't looked into it at all
[12:39] <ali1234> and i have more bugs queued ... like https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10384
[12:39] <ali1234> that one is really annoying
[12:39] <brainwash> but it's a new problem since xfdesktop 4.11
[12:39] <ali1234> well yes... 4.11 has lots of changes
[12:40] <ali1234> may also be related to realizing the window without displaying it, though i don't see how
[12:55] <brainwash> just got a nice idea, how about letting the desktop icons blend in smoothly? as of now they pop in instantly
[12:55] <brainwash> guess I'll file a wishlist report
[12:59] <brainwash> the actual problem is that xfdesktop might start delayed and therefore the desktop icons are shown after a small time frame after login
[13:00] <brainwash> I would consider this a sort of "flicker"
[16:09] <ochosi> bluesabre: wanna merge ali1234's greeter branch?
[16:09] <bluesabre> ali1234: would you consider your lightdm-gtk-greeter branch merge-ready?
[16:09] <ochosi> ::)
[16:09] <ali1234> yes
[16:09] <ochosi> then let's get on with that
[16:09] <ali1234> but make sure not to pull the -debug one by accident
[16:09] <ochosi> yeah, or you could file a merge-request ;)
[16:10] <ali1234> i'll do that
[16:11] <bluesabre> :)
[16:11] <ali1234> i want to rename the branch anyway
[16:11] <ochosi> good :)
[16:15] <bluesabre> ochosi: merged, positioning, hotkeys, and xembed branches from kalgasnik
[16:16] <ochosi> what, there was a "merged" branch too? ;)
[16:16] <ochosi> thanks bluesabre 
[16:16] <bluesabre> :(
[16:16] <ochosi> looking forward to tomorrow's build of the daily package
[16:16] <bluesabre> looks like he is working on a new branch too
[16:17] <ochosi> maybe we should do a point-release or something
[16:17] <bluesabre> users_switching
[16:17] <ali1234> MR done
[16:17] <ali1234> i think i know what causes this lightdm bug too
[16:18] <bluesabre> ali1234: merged
[16:18] <bluesabre> what do you think it is?
[16:18] <ali1234> i think it's a race condition
[16:18] <ali1234> there's a callback for when the server shuts down
[16:19] <ali1234> it appears to be getting called after the new server started, so then the vt gets unref'd
[16:20] <bluesabre> ah
[16:20] <ochosi> hmm
[16:20] <ochosi> wonder when that was introduced...
[16:21] <ali1234> i see a commit which is basically "rewrite VT handling for mir", my money's on that one
[16:21] <bluesabre> :)
[16:21] <ali1234> but i'm not quite there yet
[16:21] <ochosi> yup, sounds very probable
[16:28] <ochosi> hm, systemd replacing VT consoles... at some point the kernel's job will be only to load systemd
[16:31] <ali1234> ah...
[16:31] <ali1234> i know exactly the bug :)
[16:31] <ali1234> ochosi: at some point they'll just throw out the kernel and make systemdos
[16:31] <ochosi> yeah probably :)
[16:32] <ali1234> systemdos is actually pretty good name for an os
[16:32] <ochosi> yeah, i was first misreading it
[16:32] <ochosi> for "system dos"
[16:32] <ochosi> cool name :>
[16:32] <brainwash> system denial of service?
[16:32] <brainwash> bad name :P
[16:32] <ali1234> kids today...
[16:32] <ali1234> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_DOS
[16:33] <ochosi> yeah, that's the one i meant
[17:05] <ali1234> ochosi, brainwash: please test http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/lightdm/vt-double-unref-fix/revision/1847
[17:05] <ali1234> also anyone else with corruption :)
[17:06] <ali1234> do not make install with this - you must build a deb, or it will mess up your system
[17:06] <ochosi> wanna just throw this in a PPA?
[17:06] <ali1234> you can do... hopefully it gets merged
[17:06] <ali1234> the fix is really simple and obvious when you know where to look
[17:08] <ali1234> for easy testing just do "debuild" and then copy or symlink the built lightdm
[17:10] <ali1234> works for me anyway :)
[17:11] <ali1234> i'm gonna MR it
[17:13] <ochosi> micahg, mr_pouit, bluesabre, knome and everyone else, these are ubuntu's gtk3 plans for this cycle: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2013-November/004343.html
[17:14] <ochosi> my 2cents: our themes are already supporting gtk3.10, so we're safe here. and they're trying to get better support for some gnome3.10 apps (e.g. evince) back to non-gnome DEs, which is good for us
[17:14] <ochosi> also they'll think about CSD patches, but we'll see whether that'll help us too
[17:15] <micahg> ochosi: I think that's all fine
[17:15] <ochosi> yeah, me too
[17:16] <ochosi> i just felt i'll update you since i hang out in #ubuntu-desktop more these days
[17:16] <ochosi> micahg: while you're around, feel like quickly packaging the indicator-plugin? =)
[17:18] <micahg> not around for too long today, might be able to tomorrow night
[17:23] <ochosi> bluesabre: shall we do a -dev release of the greeter at some point in the near future?
[17:56] <ochosi> slickymaster, jjfrv8: i've almost cleaned up the staging site after this spam-attack, as we've locked it down now, feel free to commence with xfdesktop whenever you have time
[17:58] <slickymaster> ochosi: got it
[17:58] <slickymaster> jjfrv8: ping me when you'll have a chance
[18:11] <slickymaster> ochosi: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/xfce-4.12/ ins not yet available for Trusty as far as I can see
[18:12] <ochosi> slickymaster: oh, hm :/ will have to talk to mr_pouit or micahg then to update that PPA
[18:12] <slickymaster> either that or I'll setup a new box with saucy
[18:12] <ochosi> well might take them a bit to update the PPA
[18:13] <slickymaster> no worries I'll prepare a box with saucy, never mind that
[18:17] <ochosi> ok great
[18:18] <ochosi> but anyway, that PPA needs to support saucy (at least for xfwm4)
[18:18] <ochosi> other components will land in saucy anyway
[18:18] <slickymaster> yeah, you're right
[18:44] <slickymaster> bbl
[21:10] <ali1234> ochosi: about gtk 3.10 & themes... how does that work with the CSD?
[21:10] <ali1234> do they pick up the metacity themes automatically somehow?
[21:10] <ali1234> so do we require themes that have both xfwm4 & metacity compatibility?
[21:11] <ali1234> and if so... do shimmer themes actually have that?
[21:34] <ochosi> ali1234: no, the CSD are drawn entirely by Gtk
[21:34] <ochosi> but yeah, our themes have metacity support too
[21:34] <ochosi> in case someone wants to use compiz
[21:34] <ali1234> ok, but something has to tell them what they are supposed to look like...
[21:34] <ochosi> yeah, our themes do
[21:35] <ochosi> we have support for it already in saucy
[21:35] <ali1234> so there's a new, third, way to define what window decorations look like?
[21:35] <ochosi> yeah, i can link you to the css code if you like
[21:35] <ali1234> heh... not really
[21:35] <ochosi> basically it is an undecorated window
[21:35] <ochosi> with the top bar (=gtkheaderbar) holding a close-button and potentially more
[21:35] <ali1234> but it means maintaining three versions of every theme now?
[21:36] <ochosi> no, it's integrated
[21:36] <ochosi> it doesn't hurt to have it defined
[21:36] <ali1234> but it has to be kept in sync with the metacity theme and the xfwm4 theme
[21:36] <ochosi> it's just an additional feature of our themes, doesn't obstruct anything else
[21:36] <ochosi> yeah
[21:36] <ochosi> although that isn't hard, as we've initially created the three in sync
[21:37] <ochosi> and CSD use gtk colors anyway
[21:37] <ochosi> it's only a few lines, https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/blob/master/gtk-3.0/gtk-widgets.css#L3424
[21:41] <ali1234> not if the other themes are complicated...
[21:42] <ochosi> the problem with CSD in xfce seems to be that somehow those gnome-apps don't inform the window-manager that they should be displayed undecorated
[21:42] <ochosi> and i'm a bit afraid that ubuntu will get some patch done for compiz, but we'll have to find a solution for ourselves
[21:43] <ali1234> well if that happens i'll port it
[21:43] <ali1234> but i doubt it will work that way
[21:43] <ali1234> far more likely: they make an environment setting to turn it off, like scrollbars and global menu
[21:43] <ochosi> hm, not sure whether there's a fallback mode for the CSD
[21:43] <ali1234> how can there not be? it doesn't do anything
[21:44] <ochosi> well it would mean re-arranging some parts of the app
[21:44] <ochosi> i mean UI parts
[21:44] <ochosi> from the gtkheaderbar to something else, i suppose a toolbar
[21:45] <ali1234> the best hedge is still to just find some other apps
[21:45] <ochosi> what is a bit annoying is that it re-introduces inconsistency...
[21:45] <ochosi> hm, i haven't found a good evince-replacement yet
[21:45] <ochosi> it really is the part of gnome i currently wouldnt like to drop
[21:45] <ochosi> i might get something done on the file-roller-replacement front (reviving squeeze)
[21:46] <ochosi> anyway, they said they'll probably patch evince to fit into the rest of the apps for 14.04
[21:46] <ali1234> can you just style the CSD to be 0px?
[21:47] <ochosi> no, it's a whole bar
[21:47] <ochosi> have you seen it before?
[21:47] <ali1234> yes
[21:47] <ali1234> i mean 0px high
[21:47] <ali1234> i just make it go away
[21:48] <ochosi> well, what would then happen to the functionality/buttons?
[21:48] <ali1234> it would break
[21:48] <ochosi> yeah, or go missing
[21:48] <ali1234> and it would be just tough
[21:48] <ochosi> :)
[21:48] <ali1234> what functionality is in the CSD anyway?
[21:49] <ali1234> afaik it's just a close button
[21:49] <ali1234> which would be re-added by the window manager
[21:49] <ochosi> well, the functionality depends on the app
[21:49] <ali1234> yeah
[21:50] <ali1234> so in that case the best way to deal with it is to make apps that use it and don't provide a fallback break, and then let the app developers deal with that
[21:50] <ochosi> i mean it would be interesting to know whether the gtkheaderbar can simply be used with a decoration and the close-button be hidden
[21:51] <ochosi> well so far there aren't many apps that affect our default install
[21:51] <ochosi> evince is the only one i think
[21:52] <ali1234> is it even going to happen this cycle?
[21:52] <ochosi> not sure
[21:52] <ochosi> and if it would, i'm not sure ubuntu folks would sync it
[21:52] <ochosi> they're also quite sceptical of CSD and the stuff they introduce
[21:52] <ali1234> quite right.
[21:53] <ali1234> how does CSD handle this case? the app freezes and stops accepting input: how do you close the window? xkill?
[21:54] <ochosi> hm, i guess wayland would have to handle that somehow
[21:54] <ochosi> cause the client can't help itself anymore and is alone in the solitary world of wayland
[21:54] <ochosi> no window-manager to talk to
[21:54] <ali1234> right. wayland is a crap idea all round really
[21:55] <ochosi> imo, CSD is mainly a reaction to wayland
[21:55] <ochosi> or, to be exact: it's a prerequisite in a way
[21:55] <ochosi> the design of wayland says that clients should decorate their own windows
[21:55] <ali1234> except it isn't: wayland compositors can do SSD if they want
[21:55] <ochosi> yeah
[21:56] <ochosi> the fun thing is that i still remember the presentation 2,5 years ago (almost 3 now) at fosdem where kristian høgsgard talked about CSD
[21:56] <ochosi> the first question from the audience was: well, wouldn't that open the door to inconsistency?
[21:56] <ochosi> and he was like "yeah, humm..."
[21:57] <knome> there is always inconsistency in this imperfect world
[21:57] <ochosi> and the follow up was about the fact that not even QT and GTK could settle on where to put the OK | Cancel buttons in windows
[21:57] <ali1234> that whole talk was like "look at how bad X11 is. yeah i know i wrote most of it. sorry. but this time we'll get it right, promise"
[21:57] <ochosi> yeah, then again, X doesn't seem that bad
[21:58] <ali1234> it really isn't, unless you're trying to make an android-style UI with all animations and very little actual functionality beyond playing video and webpages
[21:59] <ochosi> knome: sure, but leaving something like where and how to integrate something like a "window-close" button takes me back to the windows days, where each app looked and behaved differently...
[21:59] <knome> i guess...
[22:00] <ali1234> and they still do
[22:00] <ochosi> man, ubuntu wiki crapping out on me again...
[22:00] <knome> what do you mean by again?
[22:00] <knome> did you mean: still
[22:01] <knome> btw, meh, i might have some downtime on internet connectivity next month
[22:01] <ali1234> all nokia's windows software is QT now and has a completely custom skin that looks a bit like OS X, but not really. and it's incredibly slow, and when it freezes (which it does all the time) you can't close or minimize it or anything
[22:01] <knome> ali1234, isn't that going a bit offtopic for this channel? :)
[22:02] <ali1234> no. it's what happens when you allow CSD
[22:03] <ali1234> if this catches on i will start writing belligerent software that always looks different to your desktop, no matter how you have configured it
[22:03] <ochosi> knome: hehe
[22:03] <knome> sounds like a constructive way to react to work others did
[22:04] <ochosi> knome: well i'm updating the submissions page with some instructions on how to submit
[22:04] <knome> ochosi, fyi, i have Xubuntu/.* subscribed ;)
[22:04] <ochosi> yeah, i know
[22:05] <ochosi> this was more an: review if you want ;)
[22:05] <ochosi> (=an invite for review)
[22:05] <knome> i'll let you know if you did anything stupid ;)
[22:08] <ochosi> ;)
[22:15] <Unit193> ochosi: Tip, do what I do, set everything as a minor change. ;)
[22:15] <knome> Unit193, tip: i'll get the notifications anyway
[22:17] <ochosi> yeah, i saw that last time i set something as minor change
[22:20] <knome> woot,
[22:20] <knome> all ever finland-released donald duck comics on a website
[22:20] <ochosi> hope these step-by-step instructions will help ppl to get it done
[22:20] <knome> oh wait, this is ot
[22:20] <knome> err, devel
[22:21] <ochosi> :)
[22:21] <ochosi> ali1234: hm, so what about that panel-preset app we talked about recently?
[22:21] <ali1234> well, i thought about it
[22:22] <ali1234> it needs careful UI design
[22:22] <ali1234> we don't want to trash somebody's careful set up panel
[22:22] <ochosi> well, as long as we make a backup of it...
[22:22] <ali1234> actually implementing the backend should be simple
[22:22] <ali1234> yeah but backups can get overwritten if you run it twice...
[22:23] <astraljava> Not if you make each of them unique.
[22:23] <ali1234> then you need a big list of all backups
[22:24] <knome> or save anything from the last 24 hours.
[22:24] <ali1234> it's not impossible but someone has to think about it and design a UI
[22:24] <knome> and allow users to "save" configurations
[22:24] <ochosi> i think keeping *one* backup is best
[22:24] <ochosi> and then additionally allowing saves
[22:24] <astraljava> Hmm... well it's just a list of files, and maybe timestamps. How could that be a huge one?
[22:25] <ochosi> astraljava: well what blows is that you can't really easily show a "preview", so you'll never know what you get
[22:25] <ali1234> just make a screenshot
[22:25] <astraljava> That might be true.
[22:25] <knome> sure, but the backups aren't mean to be used unless you fail
[22:25] <ochosi> ali1234: you mean automatically each time a configuration is loaded?
[22:25] <ali1234> no, each time one is saved
[22:25] <ali1234> in the save file
[22:26] <ochosi> sounds fancy
[22:26] <ali1234> it's easy
[22:26] <knome> well that might make it a bit larger
[22:26] <ochosi> yeah, but not by much
[22:26] <ochosi> the screenshot can be scaled down to 256x256
[22:26] <knome> a square?
[22:26] <ali1234> well it might make the presets 10x bigger, but they'd still only be like 100k
[22:26] <ochosi> if it's fullsize, you can't easily browse a list of those :)
[22:26] <knome> no
[22:27] <ochosi> knome: just tossing around numbers
[22:27] <ali1234> you ony show one at a time
[22:27] <ochosi> ok, i'll fire up inkscape and see what i can come up with
[22:27] <knome> i'm wondering how useful a small preview for the panel layout is
[22:28] <ochosi> for the presets we could do illustrations
[22:28] <ochosi> that could be useful
[22:28] <knome> especially if you have say 2 full-hd monitors and then we push that into 256 px wide image...
[22:28] <knome> illustrations?
[22:28] <slickymaster> good night all
[22:28] <ochosi> well symbolic ways of showing the panel layout
[22:28] <knome> ultimately i think we should allow people to change the images in the saved sets
[22:28] <ochosi> that shouldn't be too hard
[22:28] <knome> not necessarily by UI, but should be easily done by editing files
[22:29] <ali1234> the "preset" would just be a .tgz with a xml file and a jpg inside...
[22:29] <knome> ali1234, that works for my purposes
[22:29] <ali1234> the xml would be identical to what you see in the xfce configuration dirs
[22:30] <knome> yep, makes sense
[22:30] <knome> +1 for creating such an app.
[22:32] <ochosi> hm, i'm wondering: if you take a preset, e.g. "gnome2", then you modify it by adding the weather plugin
[22:32] <ochosi> that wouldn't be the preset anymore, but become a new layout the next time you open the app
[22:32] <knome> yes
[22:32] <knome> it should be:
[22:32] <ochosi> so somehow it has to detect that change
[22:32] <knome> gnome2 (modified)
[22:32] <knome> diff
[22:33] <knome> or just saying "custom" is fine
[22:33] <ali1234> that might be tricky without blacklisting certain keys
[22:33] <ali1234> cos some stuff always changes
[22:33] <ochosi> well, we could always keep a "current" item in the list
[22:33] <knome> current works
[22:33] <ochosi> so if you apply the gnome2 preset, it simply becomes "current"
[22:33] <knome> yep, sounds fine
[22:33] <ochosi> only question is what happens to whatever used to be current before
[22:34] <knome> dump it if it ain't saved.
[22:34] <ochosi> or make it the backup
[22:34] <knome> well actually
[22:34] <ochosi> and dump the backup each time the current gets moved to backup
[22:34] <knome> i don't think there should be a "current" item
[22:35] <knome> just a "load layout" list and "save current layout"
[22:35] <knome> because if there is a "current" item, wouldn't that be always selected?
[22:35] <ochosi> hm true
[22:35] <knome> (unless we allowed to undo until you closed the app)
[22:35] <ochosi> that would simplify things greatly
[22:36] <knome> so eg. you choose gnome2
[22:36] <knome> and that's shown as the selected item
[22:36] <ali1234> heh... i just found the easter egg in xfce-panel
[22:36] <ochosi> ali1234: tik-tak-toe?
[22:36] <ochosi> :)
[22:37] <knome> but ultimately, i think showing "current" is just redundant
[22:37] <ochosi> yeah i guess
[22:37] <knome> there could be "last saved"
[22:37] <ochosi> well if you save, you will have to give it a name
[22:37] <knome> if we saved the layout every time you shut down or sth
[22:38] <knome> yep.
[22:38] <ochosi> ali1234: what can we do about checking what plugins are needed and which ones might be missing?
[22:38] <ali1234> not much - but if they're missing they just won't show up in the panel
[22:38] <ochosi> hmkay
[22:38] <knome> i think that's fine
[22:39] <knome> just tell the user they might be missing items if they have removed necessary packages
[22:39] <ochosi> yeah, i think the whole thing loses its meaning if we restrict ourselves to internal plugins..
[22:39] <ali1234> i;m only using internal + places + indicators
[22:39] <knome> yep
[22:39] <ochosi> we should make sure to install all needed ones by default
[22:39] <knome> ochosi, "needed" ?:)
[22:40] <ochosi> well, needed for the presets we ship
[22:40] <ali1234> we can try to install packages with consolekit, but that'sa bit more involved
[22:40] <knome> sure.
[22:40] <ochosi> let's start with the simple version
[22:40] <ali1234> (like gstreamer does for codecs)
[22:40] <ochosi> yeah, in fact that doesn't work too well )
[22:40] <knome> i don't think we should worry about probing what layout somebody is using, or what applets are installed
[22:40] <knome> at least, not in the first version, as ochosi said
[22:41] <ali1234> well, version 1.0 is going to be "write some code that can add and delete panels at all"
[22:41] <ochosi> yup
[22:41] <knome> ali1234, when do you have a PoC? ;)
[22:41] <ali1234> what language for this?
[22:41] <ochosi> so the UI will be a listview and a load/save button..?
[22:41] <ochosi> i guess that's up to you
[22:41] <knome> yep, if you write it, you decide
[22:42] <ochosi> but whatever works well with xfconf i guess
[22:42] <knome> just argument well ;)
[22:42] <ali1234> well, it will be either python or C then, depending on which i can get working more easily
[22:42] <knome> since xfce is in C (as you most probably know), that could be preferred.
[22:43] <ochosi> at least if we wanna push it upstream...
[22:43] <ali1234> i'll probably do a python version just to get familiar with the API, then rewrite it in C
[22:43] <ochosi> sweet
[22:43] <ochosi> ali1234: so do you actually need a mockup now?
[22:43] <ali1234> no
[22:43] <ochosi> or at all, at this stage
[22:43] <ali1234> no UI on 1.0...
[22:44] <ochosi> yup
[22:52] <ali1234> ok, jfyi the idea of copying over the xml and restarting the panel and settings daemon doesn't work at all
[22:52] <ochosi> ali1234: how come?
[22:52] <ali1234> for some reason the settings are saved somewhere else
[22:52] <ochosi> weird
[22:52] <ali1234> even if you kill the panel and the settingsd, delete the xml, and then restart everything... panel is unchanged
[22:53] <ochosi> i was pretty sure it's all in the xml in the xfconf-per-channel folder
[22:53] <ali1234> it is
[22:53] <ali1234> but it just keeps coming back somehow
[22:53] <ochosi> well deleting the xml is probably not the ideal approach
[22:53] <ochosi> maybe it has a cache or something
[22:53] <ochosi> or a backup of sorts
[22:53] <ali1234> must do
[22:54] <ochosi> that's actually quite good to know :)
[22:57] <ali1234> we could fork off xfconf-query...
[22:57] <ali1234> it has all the apis
[22:57] <ali1234> unless we need to go through specific panel apis, that is
[22:59] <ali1234> here's a crazy idea...
[22:59] <ali1234> what if we put presets into the "new panel" button
[22:59] <ali1234> so instead of just making an empty panel, it offers you stuff like "Gnome 2 style top panel"
[23:00] <ochosi> oh
[23:00] <ochosi> that'd be awesome
[23:00] <ochosi> pretty cool idea
[23:00] <ali1234> that way we don't need to back up user's panel
[23:00] <ochosi> i mean you can't save panels that way
[23:00] <ali1234> well, maybe you can
[23:00] <ochosi> but it's still a quite sweet idea
[23:00] <knome> well you can save panels but backing up the configuration
[23:00] <knome> that could work.
[23:37] <ochosi> ali1234: what sucks a bit is that the wrapper3 branch still hasn't been merged to master yet in the xfce-panel
[23:37] <ochosi> although nick said he would look at that soonish
[23:37] <ochosi> i guess the changes you proposed don't conflict with the changes of that branch