[00:08] Speaking of slicky, I see he's pending on -docs, does knome, Unit193, or someone want to add him? [00:08] +1 for that. [00:12] Want me to press the button? I think it's pretty clear by the merges, translations, and talk here that he's already quite involved. [00:12] if you are next to the button, please do [00:17] big red button! [02:05] brainwash, ochosi: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/1256150 [02:05] Ubuntu bug 1256150 in xorg (Ubuntu) "Xorg guest session fails to start if the user has logged out and logged in again" [High,Confirmed] [02:05] brainwash: this is your corruption bug, it's not even specific to xubuntu, affects unity too :( [02:06] it seems to affect all graphics drivers, but in different ways [05:12] bluesabre: Where there any changes in the metas or settings I was supposed to look at? [05:12] knome: Can we consider dropping usc to recommends? [07:06] Unit193, yes. [07:06] Unit193, that's probably even a sane thing to do, but let's run it through a meeting first [07:07] I had no idea why it was a dep, and a tad annoying. I bet I'll still lose xubuntu-desktop on upgrades, but no reason to have USC as a hard dep. [07:08] yep === elfy_ is now known as forestpiskie [07:42] knome: changed the meeting to 1900UTC as per yesterday16:45 ok, let's try 19UTC next week. === Pwnna- is now known as Pwnna [09:46] ali1234: thanks for reporting the bug [09:46] morning :) [09:49] morning ali1234 :) [09:49] finally debugging something resulted in work for other ppl, not us ;) [09:50] hahaha, not if we want it to get fixed [09:52] well i believe in this case we have higher chances of getting it fixed than with xfce-bugs [09:52] morning all [09:52] at least robert is aware of it, so that means *something* [09:52] hey slickymaster [09:52] morning ochosi [09:53] slickymaster: talked to jack yesterday about docs for xfdesktop, also settled everything with upstream about that. wanna cooperate on that again? [09:53] basically the process would be like with parole [09:53] ochosi: of course, no need to ask [09:53] I see, in bluesabre dokuwiki, right? [09:55] ochosi: Am I assuming correctly that you're referring to http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfdesktop-docs ? [09:56] hey, wth, there's seems to be something really wrong with bluesabre dokuwiki, it's full of crap [09:57] yup [09:57] got spammed [09:57] we gotta clean it up first and set restrictions.. [09:57] bbiab [10:02] elfy: ping me when you'll have a chance [11:22] ochosi: i'm looking at the logs more carefully... [11:22] ali1234: seeing stuff that was overlooked before? [11:22] works: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6491291/ [11:22] fails: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6491290/ [11:22] yes, absolutely [11:23] open the two pastes and ctrl-f VT [11:23] when it fails it tries to open :1 on VT 7 instead of VT 8 [11:24] which pretty much explains exactly what we observe [11:29] yeah [11:29] that's quite odd [11:32] "it" being lightdm? [11:32] yeah this is a lightdm bug for sure [11:32] it's telling Xorg to use VT7 when that VT is already in use [11:36] mhm [11:37] better add that to the bugreport, i hope robert will be able to fix that sooner rather than later.. [11:37] yeah, added [11:57] slickymaster, jjfrv8_: bluesabre and me will clean up the staging wiki, just one note for xfdesktop: [11:58] when there are new functions (and there will be a few) in the 4.11/4.12 release, we should add a to state that this function is only available in version X [11:58] so, i think the goal is to 1) improve the current documentation and 2) add documentation for the 4.12 release (which you can test from here: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/xfce-4.12/ [11:58] ochosi: ok, I'm assuming that will be me and jjfrv8_ working on it [11:59] xfdesktop 4.11.1 is what you want [11:59] slickymaster: yeah, i think we'll be the same team [11:59] i'll coordinate stuff with upstream and will also take care of the bugreports section [11:59] also, never change a winning team ;) [12:00] ochosi: we're talking on a Trusty box, right? [12:00] nah, that doesn't matter much [12:00] xfdesktop will look the same here and there [12:00] you can use saucy if you prefer that [12:00] well as I already several trusty VM for testing, I'll preserve one for this [12:01] cool [12:01] then it's also easier to check the difference between the current xfdesktop version (4.10) and the new one [12:01] in case you're unsure what changed [12:01] let me just talk with jjfrv8_ first to split the work between us, so we'll be both on the same page [12:02] sure, no rush [12:02] you were saying "in case you're unsure what changed" but you didn't finish your thought [12:04] actually i finished the sentence from before ;) [12:04] having a vbox with xfdesktop4.11 and the normal install with 4.10 enables you to check the diffs easier, in case you're unsure [12:05] (so now it's in one line again ^ ;)) [12:05] ok, got it ;) [12:05] i can tell you asmuch that much of the change is to be found in the settings-app [12:05] you can also check the release-emails, those give you a good idea of what to look out for [12:06] where's the mailing list? [12:06] one sec, i can dig up the release mails [12:06] take your time [12:07] ignore the bugfixes i guess: http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2013-September/000285.html [12:08] here are the 4.11.1 release notes: http://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2013-November/000289.html [12:08] ochosi: tk, I'll go through it before starting [12:08] cool [12:09] hope we can clean up the wiki soon and restrict access [12:09] yeah, it's a complete mess, as it is now [12:09] need to wait for bluesabre to do that, but i think he's probably still knocked out from thanksgiving :) [12:15] he's probably digest all the turkey he had ;) [12:18] ochosi: I don't think he would thank you for knocking him out ;) [12:19] davmor2: well, ochosi can always argue that what knocked him out was the turkey, not him ;) [12:19] ochosi: does the light-locker ppa or any of the other xubuntu ppas have a newer version of lightdm than what's in saucy? [12:20] slickymaster: well hitting someone with a Turkey probably would knock them out, especially if it was still frozen :D [12:23] ali1234: neither light-locker PPA nor the other xubuntu PPAs afaik [12:23] hmm... interesting [12:24] well it could be a regression that no-one was aware of [12:24] so many things broke in the 1.7 cycle.. [12:26] well apparently downgrading to 1.8 fixed the bug [12:26] but 1.8.4 is in saucy [12:26] davmor2: :D [12:26] maybe he got the number wrong [12:29] who got the wrong number? [12:30] (i'm also on 1.8.4 and i have the bug) [12:35] nobody got the wrong number apparently [12:35] however we do something a bt different: we use "lock" not "guest session" to reproduce [12:37] ali1234: so any idea how to debug the gtk theme problem? delaying the launch of xfdesktop fixes it for me 100%, usually it fails like 75% directly after login [12:37] ugh... no [12:37] probably need to fix the order things get launched by xfsession [12:37] i did reproduce it btw [12:37] but how? [12:37] even though xfdesktop has a huge delay already here [12:38] make it run xfsettingsd or whatever before xfdesktop [12:38] ahh [12:38] before or after? [12:38] whatever thing is missing [12:38] before? [12:39] before sounds like the normal behavior [12:39] i dunno.... i haven't looked into it at all [12:39] and i have more bugs queued ... like https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10384 [12:39] bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10384 in General ""Always on top" windows steal focus after notification is displayed." [Normal,New] [12:39] that one is really annoying [12:39] but it's a new problem since xfdesktop 4.11 [12:39] well yes... 4.11 has lots of changes [12:40] may also be related to realizing the window without displaying it, though i don't see how [12:55] just got a nice idea, how about letting the desktop icons blend in smoothly? as of now they pop in instantly [12:55] guess I'll file a wishlist report [12:59] the actual problem is that xfdesktop might start delayed and therefore the desktop icons are shown after a small time frame after login [13:00] I would consider this a sort of "flicker" [16:09] bluesabre: wanna merge ali1234's greeter branch? [16:09] ali1234: would you consider your lightdm-gtk-greeter branch merge-ready? [16:09] ::) [16:09] yes [16:09] then let's get on with that [16:09] but make sure not to pull the -debug one by accident [16:09] yeah, or you could file a merge-request ;) [16:10] i'll do that [16:11] :) [16:11] i want to rename the branch anyway [16:11] good :) [16:15] ochosi: merged, positioning, hotkeys, and xembed branches from kalgasnik [16:16] what, there was a "merged" branch too? ;) [16:16] thanks bluesabre [16:16] :( [16:16] looking forward to tomorrow's build of the daily package [16:16] looks like he is working on a new branch too [16:17] maybe we should do a point-release or something [16:17] users_switching [16:17] MR done [16:17] i think i know what causes this lightdm bug too [16:18] ali1234: merged [16:18] what do you think it is? [16:18] i think it's a race condition [16:18] there's a callback for when the server shuts down [16:19] it appears to be getting called after the new server started, so then the vt gets unref'd [16:20] ah [16:20] hmm [16:20] wonder when that was introduced... [16:21] i see a commit which is basically "rewrite VT handling for mir", my money's on that one [16:21] :) [16:21] but i'm not quite there yet [16:21] yup, sounds very probable [16:28] hm, systemd replacing VT consoles... at some point the kernel's job will be only to load systemd [16:31] ah... [16:31] i know exactly the bug :) [16:31] ochosi: at some point they'll just throw out the kernel and make systemdos [16:31] yeah probably :) [16:32] systemdos is actually pretty good name for an os [16:32] yeah, i was first misreading it [16:32] for "system dos" [16:32] cool name :> [16:32] system denial of service? [16:32] bad name :P [16:32] kids today... [16:32] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_DOS [16:33] yeah, that's the one i meant [17:05] ochosi, brainwash: please test http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/lightdm/vt-double-unref-fix/revision/1847 [17:05] also anyone else with corruption :) [17:06] do not make install with this - you must build a deb, or it will mess up your system [17:06] wanna just throw this in a PPA? [17:06] you can do... hopefully it gets merged [17:06] the fix is really simple and obvious when you know where to look [17:08] for easy testing just do "debuild" and then copy or symlink the built lightdm [17:10] works for me anyway :) [17:11] i'm gonna MR it [17:13] micahg, mr_pouit, bluesabre, knome and everyone else, these are ubuntu's gtk3 plans for this cycle: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2013-November/004343.html [17:14] my 2cents: our themes are already supporting gtk3.10, so we're safe here. and they're trying to get better support for some gnome3.10 apps (e.g. evince) back to non-gnome DEs, which is good for us [17:14] also they'll think about CSD patches, but we'll see whether that'll help us too [17:15] ochosi: I think that's all fine [17:15] yeah, me too [17:16] i just felt i'll update you since i hang out in #ubuntu-desktop more these days [17:16] micahg: while you're around, feel like quickly packaging the indicator-plugin? =) [17:18] not around for too long today, might be able to tomorrow night [17:23] bluesabre: shall we do a -dev release of the greeter at some point in the near future? [17:56] slickymaster, jjfrv8: i've almost cleaned up the staging site after this spam-attack, as we've locked it down now, feel free to commence with xfdesktop whenever you have time [17:58] ochosi: got it [17:58] jjfrv8: ping me when you'll have a chance [18:11] ochosi: https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/xfce-4.12/ ins not yet available for Trusty as far as I can see [18:12] slickymaster: oh, hm :/ will have to talk to mr_pouit or micahg then to update that PPA [18:12] either that or I'll setup a new box with saucy [18:12] well might take them a bit to update the PPA [18:13] no worries I'll prepare a box with saucy, never mind that [18:17] ok great [18:18] but anyway, that PPA needs to support saucy (at least for xfwm4) [18:18] other components will land in saucy anyway [18:18] yeah, you're right [18:44] bbl === pleia2_ is now known as pleia2 [21:10] ochosi: about gtk 3.10 & themes... how does that work with the CSD? [21:10] do they pick up the metacity themes automatically somehow? [21:10] so do we require themes that have both xfwm4 & metacity compatibility? [21:11] and if so... do shimmer themes actually have that? [21:34] ali1234: no, the CSD are drawn entirely by Gtk [21:34] but yeah, our themes have metacity support too [21:34] in case someone wants to use compiz [21:34] ok, but something has to tell them what they are supposed to look like... [21:34] yeah, our themes do [21:35] we have support for it already in saucy [21:35] so there's a new, third, way to define what window decorations look like? [21:35] yeah, i can link you to the css code if you like [21:35] heh... not really [21:35] basically it is an undecorated window [21:35] with the top bar (=gtkheaderbar) holding a close-button and potentially more [21:35] but it means maintaining three versions of every theme now? [21:36] no, it's integrated [21:36] it doesn't hurt to have it defined [21:36] but it has to be kept in sync with the metacity theme and the xfwm4 theme [21:36] it's just an additional feature of our themes, doesn't obstruct anything else [21:36] yeah [21:36] although that isn't hard, as we've initially created the three in sync [21:37] and CSD use gtk colors anyway [21:37] it's only a few lines, https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/blob/master/gtk-3.0/gtk-widgets.css#L3424 [21:41] not if the other themes are complicated... [21:42] the problem with CSD in xfce seems to be that somehow those gnome-apps don't inform the window-manager that they should be displayed undecorated [21:42] and i'm a bit afraid that ubuntu will get some patch done for compiz, but we'll have to find a solution for ourselves [21:43] well if that happens i'll port it [21:43] but i doubt it will work that way [21:43] far more likely: they make an environment setting to turn it off, like scrollbars and global menu [21:43] hm, not sure whether there's a fallback mode for the CSD [21:43] how can there not be? it doesn't do anything [21:44] well it would mean re-arranging some parts of the app [21:44] i mean UI parts [21:44] from the gtkheaderbar to something else, i suppose a toolbar [21:45] the best hedge is still to just find some other apps [21:45] what is a bit annoying is that it re-introduces inconsistency... [21:45] hm, i haven't found a good evince-replacement yet [21:45] it really is the part of gnome i currently wouldnt like to drop [21:45] i might get something done on the file-roller-replacement front (reviving squeeze) [21:46] anyway, they said they'll probably patch evince to fit into the rest of the apps for 14.04 [21:46] can you just style the CSD to be 0px? [21:47] no, it's a whole bar [21:47] have you seen it before? [21:47] yes [21:47] i mean 0px high [21:47] i just make it go away [21:48] well, what would then happen to the functionality/buttons? [21:48] it would break [21:48] yeah, or go missing [21:48] and it would be just tough [21:48] :) [21:48] what functionality is in the CSD anyway? [21:49] afaik it's just a close button [21:49] which would be re-added by the window manager [21:49] well, the functionality depends on the app [21:49] yeah [21:50] so in that case the best way to deal with it is to make apps that use it and don't provide a fallback break, and then let the app developers deal with that [21:50] i mean it would be interesting to know whether the gtkheaderbar can simply be used with a decoration and the close-button be hidden [21:51] well so far there aren't many apps that affect our default install [21:51] evince is the only one i think [21:52] is it even going to happen this cycle? [21:52] not sure [21:52] and if it would, i'm not sure ubuntu folks would sync it [21:52] they're also quite sceptical of CSD and the stuff they introduce [21:52] quite right. [21:53] how does CSD handle this case? the app freezes and stops accepting input: how do you close the window? xkill? [21:54] hm, i guess wayland would have to handle that somehow [21:54] cause the client can't help itself anymore and is alone in the solitary world of wayland [21:54] no window-manager to talk to [21:54] right. wayland is a crap idea all round really [21:55] imo, CSD is mainly a reaction to wayland [21:55] or, to be exact: it's a prerequisite in a way [21:55] the design of wayland says that clients should decorate their own windows [21:55] except it isn't: wayland compositors can do SSD if they want [21:55] yeah [21:56] the fun thing is that i still remember the presentation 2,5 years ago (almost 3 now) at fosdem where kristian høgsgard talked about CSD [21:56] the first question from the audience was: well, wouldn't that open the door to inconsistency? [21:56] and he was like "yeah, humm..." [21:57] there is always inconsistency in this imperfect world [21:57] and the follow up was about the fact that not even QT and GTK could settle on where to put the OK | Cancel buttons in windows [21:57] that whole talk was like "look at how bad X11 is. yeah i know i wrote most of it. sorry. but this time we'll get it right, promise" [21:57] yeah, then again, X doesn't seem that bad [21:58] it really isn't, unless you're trying to make an android-style UI with all animations and very little actual functionality beyond playing video and webpages [21:59] knome: sure, but leaving something like where and how to integrate something like a "window-close" button takes me back to the windows days, where each app looked and behaved differently... [21:59] i guess... [22:00] and they still do [22:00] man, ubuntu wiki crapping out on me again... [22:00] what do you mean by again? [22:00] did you mean: still [22:01] btw, meh, i might have some downtime on internet connectivity next month [22:01] all nokia's windows software is QT now and has a completely custom skin that looks a bit like OS X, but not really. and it's incredibly slow, and when it freezes (which it does all the time) you can't close or minimize it or anything [22:01] ali1234, isn't that going a bit offtopic for this channel? :) [22:02] no. it's what happens when you allow CSD [22:03] if this catches on i will start writing belligerent software that always looks different to your desktop, no matter how you have configured it [22:03] knome: hehe [22:03] sounds like a constructive way to react to work others did [22:04] knome: well i'm updating the submissions page with some instructions on how to submit [22:04] ochosi, fyi, i have Xubuntu/.* subscribed ;) [22:04] yeah, i know [22:05] this was more an: review if you want ;) [22:05] (=an invite for review) [22:05] i'll let you know if you did anything stupid ;) [22:08] ;) [22:15] ochosi: Tip, do what I do, set everything as a minor change. ;) [22:15] Unit193, tip: i'll get the notifications anyway [22:17] yeah, i saw that last time i set something as minor change [22:20] woot, [22:20] all ever finland-released donald duck comics on a website [22:20] hope these step-by-step instructions will help ppl to get it done [22:20] oh wait, this is ot [22:20] err, devel [22:21] :) [22:21] ali1234: hm, so what about that panel-preset app we talked about recently? [22:21] well, i thought about it [22:22] it needs careful UI design [22:22] we don't want to trash somebody's careful set up panel [22:22] well, as long as we make a backup of it... [22:22] actually implementing the backend should be simple [22:22] yeah but backups can get overwritten if you run it twice... [22:23] Not if you make each of them unique. [22:23] then you need a big list of all backups [22:24] or save anything from the last 24 hours. [22:24] it's not impossible but someone has to think about it and design a UI [22:24] and allow users to "save" configurations [22:24] i think keeping *one* backup is best [22:24] and then additionally allowing saves [22:24] Hmm... well it's just a list of files, and maybe timestamps. How could that be a huge one? [22:25] astraljava: well what blows is that you can't really easily show a "preview", so you'll never know what you get [22:25] just make a screenshot [22:25] That might be true. [22:25] sure, but the backups aren't mean to be used unless you fail [22:25] ali1234: you mean automatically each time a configuration is loaded? [22:25] no, each time one is saved [22:25] in the save file [22:26] sounds fancy [22:26] it's easy [22:26] well that might make it a bit larger [22:26] yeah, but not by much [22:26] the screenshot can be scaled down to 256x256 [22:26] a square? [22:26] well it might make the presets 10x bigger, but they'd still only be like 100k [22:26] if it's fullsize, you can't easily browse a list of those :) [22:26] no [22:27] knome: just tossing around numbers [22:27] you ony show one at a time [22:27] ok, i'll fire up inkscape and see what i can come up with [22:27] i'm wondering how useful a small preview for the panel layout is [22:28] for the presets we could do illustrations [22:28] that could be useful [22:28] especially if you have say 2 full-hd monitors and then we push that into 256 px wide image... [22:28] illustrations? [22:28] good night all [22:28] well symbolic ways of showing the panel layout [22:28] ultimately i think we should allow people to change the images in the saved sets [22:28] that shouldn't be too hard [22:28] not necessarily by UI, but should be easily done by editing files [22:29] the "preset" would just be a .tgz with a xml file and a jpg inside... [22:29] ali1234, that works for my purposes [22:29] the xml would be identical to what you see in the xfce configuration dirs [22:30] yep, makes sense [22:30] +1 for creating such an app. [22:32] hm, i'm wondering: if you take a preset, e.g. "gnome2", then you modify it by adding the weather plugin [22:32] that wouldn't be the preset anymore, but become a new layout the next time you open the app [22:32] yes [22:32] it should be: [22:32] so somehow it has to detect that change [22:32] gnome2 (modified) [22:32] diff [22:33] or just saying "custom" is fine [22:33] that might be tricky without blacklisting certain keys [22:33] cos some stuff always changes [22:33] well, we could always keep a "current" item in the list [22:33] current works [22:33] so if you apply the gnome2 preset, it simply becomes "current" [22:33] yep, sounds fine [22:33] only question is what happens to whatever used to be current before [22:34] dump it if it ain't saved. [22:34] or make it the backup [22:34] well actually [22:34] and dump the backup each time the current gets moved to backup [22:34] i don't think there should be a "current" item [22:35] just a "load layout" list and "save current layout" [22:35] because if there is a "current" item, wouldn't that be always selected? [22:35] hm true [22:35] (unless we allowed to undo until you closed the app) [22:35] that would simplify things greatly [22:36] so eg. you choose gnome2 [22:36] and that's shown as the selected item [22:36] heh... i just found the easter egg in xfce-panel [22:36] ali1234: tik-tak-toe? [22:36] :) [22:37] but ultimately, i think showing "current" is just redundant [22:37]