| popey | ali1234: http://www.the3doodler.com/project/hipster-glasses/ | 00:04 |
|---|---|---|
| popey | has a pdf | 00:04 |
| aquarius | gah, anyone know about sendmail? Some mails my server sends arrive, some don't, and I don't know why | 01:05 |
| ali1234 | i know a little bit | 01:05 |
| ali1234 | do you really use sendmail, or postfix? | 01:06 |
| aquarius | I believe it's actually sendmail | 01:14 |
| aquarius | how can I tell? | 01:14 |
| vipintruder | aquarius: Probably because your ip (assuming it be static) is included in some blacklist. | 01:15 |
| aquarius | ali1234, it seems to be actually sendmail | 01:15 |
| aquarius | vipintruder, I don't believe that that's the problem, because I get the mails (using gmail, although forwarded from my isp's mail server) and others using gmail don't | 01:16 |
| ali1234 | check for /var/spool/postfix | 01:16 |
| aquarius | it might be the problem, but I don't know how to work that out. The mail's being sent from an Azure server, running discourse. | 01:16 |
| ali1234 | if you find it, look for bounces and other errors | 01:16 |
| aquarius | and it's not a static IP: the machine gets a dhcp addrss | 01:17 |
| aquarius | ali1234, the logs either don't tell me what the problem is, or they do and I just don't understand it. | 01:17 |
| ali1234 | make sure that your canonical domain name is actually correct for the mails you are sending | 01:17 |
| vipintruder | ok, good | 01:17 |
| vipintruder | ok | 01:17 |
| ali1234 | ie make sure you're not sending mail from root@azureserver12345.microsoft.com | 01:17 |
| ali1234 | that's not going to work | 01:17 |
| ali1234 | also make sure you have configured spf for your domain | 01:18 |
| aquarius | ali1234, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6522739/ are the relevant lines for one email send attempt from /var/log/mail.log | 01:19 |
| aquarius | ali1234, what's a canonical domain name? | 01:19 |
| ali1234 | i mean fully qualified domain name... | 01:19 |
| aquarius | "DSN: Service unavailable" seemed like a relevant error message but I don't think it is; googling it comes up with a zillion people who have it, and a bunch of answers which aren't helpful. | 01:20 |
| aquarius | ali1234, well. the machine that this is running on is an Azure VM. community.badvoltage.org resolves to that VM. The mail is being sent from info@badvoltage.org. As noted, some emails do get through, so they're not all dying. | 01:20 |
| ali1234 | that log says the message was accepted | 01:21 |
| ali1234 | maybe you are getting greylisted (setting up SPF should fix that) | 01:21 |
| aquarius | OK. I run this box, but jono has the DNS for badvoltage.org. Is SPF a DNS thing? That is: does jono need to set it up? | 01:22 |
| ali1234 | you don't appear to have any SPF records | 01:22 |
| ali1234 | yes it is a DNS thing | 01:22 |
| ali1234 | basically, in SPF, you add a entry in your domain that isn't a hostname: instead it says "this IP address/host is allowed to send mail from badvoltage.org" | 01:23 |
| aquarius | worryingly, I am reasonably sure that jono has the DNS for badvoltage.org at 1and1, and according to http://faq.1and1.co.uk/communication/e_mail/general/9.html they don't let you set up SPF records. | 01:24 |
| ali1234 | 1and1 are craaaaaaaaaaap | 01:24 |
| ali1234 | move it to gandi.net | 01:24 |
| aquarius | If I have to ask him to move the DNS I will, but before I do that, are we sure that SPF is the problem here? | 01:24 |
| aquarius | I don't want to go through a bunch of hassle like that and then discover that the *actual* problem is that I need to put work_properly=yes in /etc/sendmail/conf :) | 01:25 |
| ali1234 | not until you get a bounce, or the mail goes through (then you can look at the headers to see what happened) | 01:25 |
| ali1234 | mails should never just disappear | 01:26 |
| aquarius | ah! I have got mail from that box. I can look at the headers of a mail which arrived and garner some clues? | 01:26 |
| aquarius | what am I looking for/ | 01:26 |
| aquarius | ? | 01:26 |
| ali1234 | "SPF verification failed" or something | 01:26 |
| ali1234 | but SPF is checked by the receiver, so they'll all have different rules for what to do if it's not set up | 01:26 |
| diddledan | there's two TLS failures in that snippet | 01:27 |
| diddledan | which I believe are from two separate emails | 01:28 |
| aquarius | ali1234, SPF lines in the headers of a mail that arrived are: | 01:28 |
| aquarius | Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 95.142.156.6 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of info@badvoltage.org) client-ip=95.142.156.6; | 01:28 |
| aquarius | Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; | 01:28 |
| aquarius | spf=neutral (google.com: 95.142.156.6 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of info@badvoltage.org) smtp.mail=info@badvoltage.org | 01:28 |
| diddledan | one going to 1and1 and the other going to google | 01:28 |
| aquarius | diddledan, ah, I might have snipped too much out of the logs? | 01:28 |
| ali1234 | "neither permitted nor denied" means you don't have a SPF record | 01:28 |
| ali1234 | which you don't | 01:28 |
| ali1234 | some servers will just let that through, other will greylist (which in practice means delay for 30 minutes) | 01:29 |
| ali1234 | the mail.log snippet you posted doesn't look like thats what happened though | 01:29 |
| aquarius | Now, my mail goes to my ISP, which I have set to forward the mail directly to my gmail account. (That is: it is not collected at my ISP and then POP3ed off by gmail; my ISP forwards the mail to gmail.) Might that make a difference? Specifically, if my ISP doesn't care about SPF, might it accept the mail and then forward to gmail (and gmail then accepts it), but sending it straight *to* gmail might get rfused becaus G | 01:30 |
| aquarius | oogle themselves *do* care about SPF? | 01:30 |
| ali1234 | no, they don't | 01:30 |
| ali1234 | when i was fixing this, i could always send to my gmail | 01:30 |
| aquarius | OK, so that's not the reason that mails aren't arriving :( | 01:30 |
| aquarius | so, if setting up an SPF record isn't the solution... what else might it be? | 01:31 |
| === JamesTait is now known as Guest62879 | ||
| ali1234 | using a wrong from: or reply-to: address | 01:31 |
| diddledan | aquarius: the only failures I see in that log are related to TLS | 01:31 |
| ali1234 | can i log into your site and try to get it to email me? | 01:31 |
| diddledan | aquarius: one of the tls errors was from google | 01:31 |
| diddledan | so an email destined to google failed to get delivered because you failed to verify their ssl cert | 01:32 |
| aquarius | ali1234, I can send a "test" email to an address of your choice from discourse, if that'll help | 01:32 |
| ali1234 | a.j.buxton@gmail.com | 01:32 |
| aquarius | diddledan, hm, that sounds relevant. | 01:32 |
| ali1234 | i'll have a look at the headers, if it arrives | 01:32 |
| aquarius | ali1234, test email sent | 01:33 |
| aquarius | diddledan, why wouldn't the machine be able to verify google's ssl cert? | 01:33 |
| ali1234 | nothing yet... | 01:33 |
| diddledan | aquarius: likely an openssl issue - do you have the ca-certificates deb installed? | 01:33 |
| aquarius | and... it says "Message accepted for delivery"?Or is that sendmail itself saying "ok, calling process, I accept that email and now I'll try and send it to the relevant mail server"? | 01:34 |
| aquarius | diddledan, yes. ii ca-certificates 20111211 Common CA certificates | 01:34 |
| shauno | the latter. accepted for delivery means this server believes that the originating server is allowed to relay (or deliver) via this host | 01:35 |
| aquarius | OK. So that "accepted for delivery" does not mean that *GMail* has accepted the mail for delivery, it means *sendmail on my server* has accepted it and will now attempt to deliver it to gmail. | 01:35 |
| aquarius | which suggests, then, that the next line, which is a STARTTLS verify=FAIL, is relevant, as diddledan says | 01:36 |
| aquarius | I have the ca-certificates package installed | 01:36 |
| ali1234 | that does seem quite a reasonable explanation | 01:36 |
| shauno | I do note that like 8 also has verify=FAIL for 1und1's MX, yet that seems to work | 01:37 |
| shauno | line 8, rather | 01:37 |
| diddledan | you can use openssl directly to connect to google from your server: openssl s_client -starttls smtp -connect gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com:25 | 01:37 |
| diddledan | if it connects then I'm wrong | 01:37 |
| aquarius | diddledan, you are, then, wrong | 01:38 |
| aquarius | well, by the look of it you are | 01:38 |
| diddledan | if you get a line similar to "verify error:num=20:unable to get local issuer certificate" then there _might_ be an issue | 01:39 |
| diddledan | I get that line on os x though but it still connects | 01:39 |
| aquarius | diddledan, http://paste.ubuntu.com/6522782/ | 01:39 |
| aquarius | ya, it connects. It does give that line about the local issuer cert, but it still connects and I can talk to it | 01:40 |
| ali1234 | aquarius: what is actually happening in that original log you posted? | 01:41 |
| ali1234 | last thing is does is send an email to info@ via 1and1 | 01:41 |
| ali1234 | is that a message like "email failed to send" | 01:41 |
| ali1234 | or is it unrelated? | 01:41 |
| aquarius | ali1234, someone tried to sign up to Discourse. It sends them the "click on this link to verify your account" email. | 01:41 |
| aquarius | it is possible that I have included too many lines in the log | 01:41 |
| aquarius | specifically, I don't think that any email *arrived* at info@badvoltage.org. | 01:42 |
| * aquarius asks jono | 01:42 | |
| shauno | curious, is the hostname really 'default'? | 01:43 |
| ali1234 | so, the clue then is i guess DSN: Service unavailable | 01:43 |
| aquarius | so it may indeed be that an "it went wrong" message got sent to info@badvoltage.org, and that "it wnt wrong" message never got delivered either | 01:43 |
| ali1234 | no, it did | 01:43 |
| ali1234 | stat=Sent (Message 0LtnVJ-1Ve1kp2N6b-0119yR accepted by mxeu5.kundenserver.de) | 01:43 |
| aquarius | "DSN: Service unavailable" is a wildly useless error message, because there are a trillion hits for it and the responses on every forum in the land are things like "are you sure your DNS works?" :( | 01:44 |
| ali1234 | can you send a test message to... al@drumoff.tv | 01:44 |
| aquarius | hm. So this looks like some sort of related message was sent to info@badvoltage.org, and we didn't get that message (which probably contains useful debugging info) | 01:45 |
| ali1234 | well you should have... 1and1 received it | 01:45 |
| aquarius | test email sent to al@drumoff.tv | 01:45 |
| aquarius | yeah. I don't know where info@badvoltage.org goes, though. | 01:45 |
| ali1234 | need to find an email that can receive directly the message... and then look at the headers | 01:46 |
| ali1234 | shauno: where do you see "default"? | 01:46 |
| diddledan | ali1234: 4th field in the log | 01:46 |
| ali1234 | that could be the problem, if the FQDN is wrong (and it usually is on ubuntu vhosts) | 01:46 |
| ali1234 | oh yeah, every line | 01:47 |
| aquarius | ah. Now, "hostname" said "default". So I did "sudo hostname community.badvoltage.org" to set it | 01:47 |
| aquarius | I do not know what I need to do to make that take effect, though | 01:47 |
| diddledan | first you need to set it in /etc/hostname so it gets set after reboob | 01:48 |
| vipintruder | sudo /etc/init.d/networking restart | 01:48 |
| diddledan | THEN ideally you'd set the RDNS on the server's ip to also be community.badvoltage.org - some email servers are picky about reverse dns | 01:49 |
| aquarius | vipintruder, um.... I'm sshed into it. | 01:49 |
| vipintruder | ok | 01:49 |
| shauno | ali1234: the log entries linked, it should go timestamp hostname process[pid]: text | 01:49 |
| aquarius | vipintruder, if I restart networking, it'll boot me off, won't it? Will I be able to get back on? | 01:49 |
| shauno | I was just curious if 'default' actually is the hostname; if it was just sanitizing logs, or if something is altogether weird in the name resolution | 01:49 |
| diddledan | aquarius: you won't get back on if the network doesn't finish restarting | 01:49 |
| diddledan | changing the hostname doesn't require network reset though | 01:50 |
| aquarius | I don't think I can make the machine's IP reverse-dns to community.badvoltage.org, because it's an azure box; it's juju-azure-cw1co66xeo.cloudapp.net | 01:50 |
| aquarius | ok, I have edited /etc/hostname | 01:50 |
| vipintruder | yes, ofcourse. | 01:50 |
| ali1234 | according to what i just read, the email sent to info@ should contain the exact error google's mailserver sent | 01:51 |
| ali1234 | https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mail.sendmail/i2zZ4BVqd9E | 01:51 |
| diddledan | in that case then I'd change the sendmail config to get sendmail to report that it _is_ juju-azure..... | 01:51 |
| diddledan | that way the reverse dns matches with the smtp identifier | 01:51 |
| diddledan | the sent-from email addresses don't need to change from community though | 01:52 |
| aquarius | ali1234, right. I have asked jono to try and find those emails :) | 01:52 |
| diddledan | it's a wire-level issue | 01:52 |
| aquarius | where does sendmail keep its config? | 01:53 |
| diddledan | from memory it's an evil pre-parsed m4-based config that gets compiled | 01:53 |
| aquarius | aha /etc/mail/sendmail.conf | 01:53 |
| diddledan | they might have moved away from that though - my memory is from the 90s | 01:54 |
| diddledan | and my memory might be confusing it with exim | 01:54 |
| aquarius | and /etc/mail/sendmail.cf | 01:54 |
| aquarius | # my official domain name | 01:55 |
| aquarius | # ... define this only if sendmail cannot automatically determine your domain | 01:55 |
| aquarius | #Dj$w.Foo.COM | 01:55 |
| aquarius | that's in sendmail.cf | 01:55 |
| shauno | I hope so. it used to be that sendmail's config files were dark incantations | 01:55 |
| aquarius | but... can it automatically determine my domain? | 01:55 |
| ali1234 | probably not if it is using "default" | 01:55 |
| diddledan | it should tell you in the logs on a restart what hostname it's using - OR you could connect to the smtp port and see what it reports in the welcome | 01:56 |
| aquarius | I can't see anywhere in /etc/mail/sendmail.* where it mentions "default" as a hostname | 01:56 |
| diddledan | <3 textual protocols | 01:56 |
| ali1234 | well it won't... that's a default... | 01:56 |
| aquarius | $ telnet localhost 25 says 220 default.juju-azure-cw1co66xeo.f3.internal.cloudapp.net ESMTP Sendmail 8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-2ubuntu2.1; Thu, 5 Dec 2013 01:56:31 GMT; (No UCE/UBE) logging access from: localhost(OK)-localhost [127.0.0.1] | 01:56 |
| aquarius | that "internal" address looks a bit wrong. | 01:57 |
| ali1234 | doesn't seem to resolve | 01:57 |
| shauno | that's very likely to be what it calls itself when it hello's strangers then | 01:57 |
| ali1234 | that could be the problem | 01:57 |
| aquarius | ahahahaha! | 01:58 |
| shauno | google are famously fussy about that .. it started biting people recently because they've started to expect the same on ipv6 too | 01:58 |
| aquarius | I have the bouncy emails. | 01:58 |
| diddledan | I say Ehllo these days | 01:58 |
| ali1234 | after 30 minute delay? | 01:58 |
| aquarius | no, but it was in another account, and gmail put the bounce message into spam because it's a bounce from a message that gmail didn't see me send :) | 01:59 |
| aquarius | IP blocked for spam. Dammit. | 01:59 |
| diddledan | \o/ | 01:59 |
| aquarius | I suspect gmail may be blocking lots of azure | 01:59 |
| diddledan | indeed | 01:59 |
| aquarius | <<< 550-5.7.1 [138.91.52.164 1] Our system has detected an unusual rate of | 01:59 |
| aquarius | <<< 550-5.7.1 unsolicited mail originating from your IP address. To protect our | 01:59 |
| aquarius | <<< 550-5.7.1 users from spam, mail sent from your IP address has been blocked. | 01:59 |
| aquarius | <<< 550-5.7.1 Please visit http://www.google.com/mail/help/bulk_mail.html to review | 01:59 |
| aquarius | <<< 550 5.7.1 our Bulk Email Senders Guidelines. za4si33673866wjc.96 - gsmtp | 01:59 |
| ali1234 | aquarius: i just got your first test email | 01:59 |
| diddledan | which is why a lot of cloud services often have cloudy smtp relays | 02:00 |
| diddledan | you pay extra to access them though | 02:00 |
| diddledan | amazon call theirs SNS | 02:00 |
| diddledan | IIRC | 02:00 |
| shauno | be warned their 'guidelines' are very likely to be impossibly vague | 02:00 |
| diddledan | no, not sns | 02:00 |
| ali1234 | oh wait, no, it's the second one | 02:00 |
| ali1234 | via gandi | 02:00 |
| diddledan | SES is amazon's | 02:01 |
| diddledan | simple email service | 02:02 |
| aquarius | I'm on azure. Not sure if they have one | 02:02 |
| ali1234 | X-Policy: Greylisted 300 seconds | 02:02 |
| diddledan | no, I'm not sure about azure either | 02:02 |
| shauno | there's no such thing as a simple email service :/ smtp is the work of the devil | 02:02 |
| ali1234 | if you set up SPF it might cancel out the badness | 02:02 |
| diddledan | shauno: yeah | 02:02 |
| diddledan | SPF eliminates the work of the devil? wow | 02:02 |
| aquarius | yeah, google's "bulk email guidelines" say "we recommend you set up spf", but not with any sort of "and if you do that'll fix it" thing | 02:02 |
| ali1234 | Received: from default.juju-azure-cw1co66xeo.f3.internal.cloudapp.net (unknown [138.91.52.164]) <- fixing that might also help | 02:03 |
| aquarius | and I really don't want to hassle jono to move the dns from 1and1 if it won't fix the problem... | 02:03 |
| shauno | they never promise it'll fix it. they're very defensive of their spam filter, and don't want to give spammers any real clues how to avoid it | 02:03 |
| ali1234 | and a very good spam filter it is too | 02:03 |
| diddledan | spam filtering is very similar to search engine ranking - you don't want to show anyone how it's done | 02:03 |
| shauno | but things like spf, dkim do make mails do lend an air of legitimacy | 02:04 |
| ali1234 | you should move everything you possibly can away from 1and1 anyway... they are rubbish | 02:04 |
| shauno | okay, that wasn't a sentence, which means it's bedtime | 02:04 |
| diddledan | shauno: do you still have a 1&1 vps? :-p | 02:04 |
| shauno | I still have a hosting account with them, because I'm grandfathered into their free-for-life deal when they launched in the US | 02:05 |
| * diddledan refers shauno to ali1234's previous comment | 02:05 | |
| diddledan | freeforlife?! | 02:05 |
| diddledan | wtf? | 02:05 |
| aquarius | ali1234, not up to me. *My* DNS is not with 1and1 :) | 02:05 |
| shauno | it's just shared hosting though, and rarely gets used for anything. I just keep it alive because .. it's free | 02:06 |
| diddledan | heh | 02:06 |
| shauno | I have my names with gandi because they don't act like ipv6 glue is witchcraft, and host my nameserver myself | 02:06 |
| diddledan | I need to host my own nameservers | 02:07 |
| ali1234 | i don't need t host my own anything | 02:07 |
| diddledan | ali1234: but you want to, right? :-p | 02:07 |
| shauno | most likely you don't need to. most likely I don't need to :) | 02:07 |
| ali1234 | diddledan: NO | 02:08 |
| shauno | although tying bind9 to apple's global-bonjour stuff is cheaper than acid | 02:08 |
| ali1234 | i especially don't want any of this cloud nonsense | 02:08 |
| diddledan | cloud is awesome | 02:08 |
| ali1234 | not until it's actually completely transparent and i don't have to care about it | 02:08 |
| diddledan | though I'm hosting ordinary servers | 02:08 |
| diddledan | on* | 02:09 |
| aquarius | well... this is bleedin' annoying, then. | 02:12 |
| aquarius | doing spf and dkim and things is hell on legs | 02:12 |
| aquarius | azure don't provide an smtp server | 02:12 |
| aquarius | SendGrid do, and give me 25,000 emails per month. Will that be enough? Perhaps. | 02:13 |
| shauno | for dkim I should point out, unless you control every mailserver this domain will use, it won't work | 02:15 |
| shauno | spf is much easier because you just have to list them all | 02:16 |
| Vairam | hello | 03:59 |
| Vairam | I'm using Motorola droid RAZR | 04:00 |
| Vairam | i installed Ubuntu quantal in my mobile | 04:00 |
| Vairam | its working but it is not working on saucy | 04:01 |
| Vairam | anyone there | 04:02 |
| * MartijnVdS pushes AlanBell 's campaign over the £2500 edge | 05:31 | |
| diddledan | MartijnVdS: there's a £2500 edge? I thought the indiegogo edge campain didn't reach it's however many meelions :-p | 06:57 |
| MooDoo | morning all | 07:01 |
| MooDoo | congrats AlanBell on reaching your target for the pi's :D | 07:02 |
| foobarry | +1 | 07:19 |
| MooDoo | morning foobarry | 07:19 |
| foobarry | morning | 07:32 |
| foobarry | somebody made the adobe password crossword from xkcd http://zed0.co.uk/crossword/ | 07:33 |
| MartijnVdS | haha :) | 07:34 |
| MooDoo | yeah saw that before, took me ages to figure out how to do it :D | 07:34 |
| foobarry | who calls their dog "shadow"? | 07:39 |
| === iahmad is now known as iahmad|brb | ||
| === iahmad|brb is now known as iahmad | ||
| foobarry | now AlanBell and co. are funded, can the still shot from the youtube vid show a happy face now? | 08:08 |
| AlanBell | \o/ | 08:11 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | lol | 08:11 |
| AlanBell | foobarry: I will probably do another video | 08:11 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | AlanBell: Dancing naked round a pile of Raspberry Pi - bit like in Wicker Man. Something like that maybe? | 08:12 |
| Myrtti | oooohhhh | 08:12 |
| AlanBell | I might make one or two changes to that plan | 08:13 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Calm down Myrtti | 08:13 |
| Myrtti | hacker skill badges | 08:13 |
| Myrtti | http://www.adafruit.com/category/70 | 08:13 |
| foobarry | gonna be a long day. baby hasnt stopped whining since < 6am | 08:13 |
| MooDoo | foobarry: been there :D | 08:14 |
| Myrtti | I might need more tea, I read baby as body and was going to say something that agrees (pain sucks, what sucks more is an Adobe Connect meeting I had to drag myself into at 7, and not having time to get a drink to get a painkiller) | 08:16 |
| diddledan | lol @ magic blue smoke badge | 08:16 |
| foobarry | wow, these are real? http://www.natureknows.org/2013/11/amazing-macro-photography-of-individual.html?m=1 | 08:17 |
| diddledan | foobarry: those scare me -- because I equate them with the andromeda strain | 08:18 |
| === iahmad is now known as iahmad|afk | ||
| AlanBell | I love the water jet badge | 08:23 |
| MooDoo | now that the global jam has been announced for next year, do we do anything for it? | 08:30 |
| popey | We should. | 08:32 |
| MooDoo | I've put the date in my diary so if there is a party as well ;) i'd like to go to this one :D | 08:36 |
| * TheOpenSourcerer is starving after all that driving yesterday. Thinking *BACON* | 08:37 | |
| popey | nativity today | 08:38 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | w00t! | 08:38 |
| popey | front row reserved seats ㋛ | 08:38 |
| MooDoo | next wednesday afternoon for me. | 08:38 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | My youngest on doing the sound at his... Don;t think my eldest's has one this year (Double Yay!) | 08:38 |
| popey | Sam is "Mouse #1" | 08:39 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | ha ha ha | 08:39 |
| MooDoo | my son has been practising "little donkey" every night for the past 2 weeks :D | 08:39 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Monty's school is really quite big for a primary (~500 kids). It gets really *painful* when they have to try and get all of them on stage at some point through the evening... They have lots of singers ;-) | 08:40 |
| popey | hehe | 08:40 |
| popey | Villager #128 | 08:40 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Exactly. | 08:41 |
| MooDoo | lol | 08:41 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | http://www.waverley-abbey.surrey.sch.uk/site/ | 08:41 |
| popey | \o/ http://www.hawleyplace.com/ | 08:45 |
| MooDoo | http://www.st-wilfrids.ik.org/ | 08:46 |
| popey | oooh christmas lunch | 08:47 |
| popey | wish I could sneak in and have some ☻ | 08:47 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | My eldest son's "big" school: http://www.weydonschool.surrey.sch.uk/ | 08:49 |
| === iahmad|afk is now known as iahmad | ||
| foobarry | i dont remember mice in the nativity..i thought they herded the kids in as sheep | 08:57 |
| JamesTait | Good morning all; happy Ninja Day! :-D | 09:30 |
| MooDoo | JamesTait: I already said morning, but you didn't see me COZ I'M A NINJA ;) | 09:34 |
| foobarry | popey: airfix/scaletrix/honbry reminder :P | 09:34 |
| JamesTait | MooDoo, nice. ;) | 09:34 |
| foobarry | today is the scalextric endor set | 09:35 |
| foobarry | i think all the answers are (b) today | 09:35 |
| MartijnVdS | foobarry: trains? on endor?! | 09:36 |
| MartijnVdS | uh | 09:36 |
| MartijnVdS | racing cars, on endor?! | 09:36 |
| foobarry | slot racing | 09:36 |
| foobarry | speederbikes | 09:36 |
| MartijnVdS | ah, of course | 09:37 |
| TwistedLucidity | foobarry: Whut? | 09:40 |
| foobarry | huh? | 09:41 |
| MooDoo | is it me or is the ubuntu-uk mailing list quiet? has there really been nothing since the 23rd nov, or is it me? | 09:42 |
| foobarry | TwistedLucidity: aformentioned companies have a free competition every day of december to win free stuffs | 09:43 |
| TwistedLucidity | foobarry: Ah, I see. | 09:43 |
| DJones | MooDoo: Nope, thats right | 09:43 |
| AlanBell | MooDoo: it is oh so quiet | 09:43 |
| MooDoo | AlanBell: shhhh shhhhh ;) | 09:43 |
| MooDoo | AlanBell: well done on the pi thing :D | 09:44 |
| MartijnVdS | AlanBell: yeah, I saw it at 2477 | 09:49 |
| MartijnVdS | AlanBell: I just had to fix that ;) | 09:50 |
| AlanBell | :) thanks | 09:50 |
| bigcalm | Good morning peeps :) | 10:06 |
| foobarry | what's happened to linux format? most of the team quit? | 10:09 |
| MartijnVdS | didn't they start a kickstarter? | 10:10 |
| foobarry | seems so. and they want subs up front before we've seen a magazine | 10:10 |
| foobarry | looks like they'll make it | 10:11 |
| foobarry | has anyone seen LF since? | 10:13 |
| diplo | I'm subbed to LF | 10:13 |
| foobarry | i used to read the other one for 5yrs | 10:13 |
| diplo | Been debating cancelling it for the last 6 months but I'm lazy | 10:13 |
| diplo | It's imo gone downhill over the last year, way to many adverts for my liking as well | 10:14 |
| diplo | And the stuff they put in it, I'd rather a magazine without the disc as well | 10:14 |
| foobarry | sounds like you're their target customer for the kickstarter mag then | 10:14 |
| diplo | Debated about trying the more dev/sysadmin which the name of has totalleft left my mind atm | 10:15 |
| foobarry | linux magazine? | 10:15 |
| foobarry | linux journal? | 10:15 |
| foobarry | the trouble with mags is that they are generally written by people who also write g+ posts and blogs about stuff | 10:17 |
| foobarry | which i read, but isn't essential "learning", its just casual reading | 10:17 |
| diplo | yeah mine are always found in the loo :) I just read them when the kids are having a bath or other stuff :) | 10:19 |
| diplo | Linux User/Developer was the one | 10:19 |
| TwistedLucidity | foobarry: The ex-LXFers are now doing "Linux Voice" and the fundraiser is on Indiegogo | 10:32 |
| foobarry | yep, i was wondering about the effect on LF | 10:33 |
| foobarry | have they killed the mag? the only regular linux mag on the supermarket shelves? | 10:33 |
| TwistedLucidity | What I dislike about LXF is the way the gloss over important stuff. When they did "ownCloud" the mentioned that you needed to secure it. No where did they discuss *HOW*. | 10:34 |
| TwistedLucidity | What they should have done was run one article about "ownCloud" and then a second (next month?) about how to secure the wee bugger. | 10:34 |
| foobarry | i find all magazines too formulaic | 10:34 |
| TwistedLucidity | Directory permission, mod-security etc etc | 10:35 |
| foobarry | whether it's photography or linux or other | 10:35 |
| TwistedLucidity | They have to catch everyone, so some articles will be too simple, others too complex. But to just ignore something as important as security....yeesh. | 10:35 |
| TwistedLucidity | Although I guess "security" encompasses so much they'd have to start with "Re-wiring your home network to create a DMZ" | 10:37 |
| diplo | :q | 10:38 |
| diddledan | I hate that consumer routers have a "DMZ Address" setting which doesn't deserve the name DMZ at all - a DMZ is supposed to be segregated, not just a host on the lan that has everything forwarded to it | 10:38 |
| MartijnVdS | diddledan: \o/ openwrt, where you can put it on a second vlan :) | 10:39 |
| diddledan | diplo: was that a smilie or a vim command in the wrong window? :-p | 10:39 |
| MartijnVdS | diddledan: (also, I get a /48 from my ISP, giving me 2^16 /64s to distribute that way) | 10:39 |
| diddledan | MartijnVdS: yeah vlans are nifty | 10:40 |
| TwistedLucidity | I bought a nice Buffalo dd-wrt router. I thought it would be easy enough to assign one port as a DMZ. Can I do that? Can I feck. All the ports are bridged in some odd way. | 10:40 |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: dd-wrt is very closed/weird in a lot of ways | 10:40 |
| MartijnVdS | openwrt is much more recognisable for command-line people :) | 10:40 |
| diddledan | openwrt bundle a damned webui now tho which really sucks | 10:40 |
| ali1234 | most consumer routers support vlans these days | 10:40 |
| MartijnVdS | diddledan: yeah, luci is bad | 10:41 |
| TwistedLucidity | MartijnVdS: I think, from reading, it's a hardware limitation. I have considered flashing in with OpenWRT, but the risk is too great. | 10:41 |
| ali1234 | perhaps not in the webif, but in the hardware they do | 10:41 |
| MartijnVdS | ali1234: top-end ones, maybe. Lower-end ones don't. | 10:41 |
| diddledan | ali1234: they might have hardware support for them, but it's rarely exposed in the ui | 10:41 |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: what's the model/type? | 10:41 |
| TwistedLucidity | MartijnVds: Buffalo AirStation Nfiniti WZR-HP-AG300H-EU | 10:42 |
| diddledan | http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25138271 | 10:43 |
| TwistedLucidity | I can separate WifI easily enough (so I have an isolated guest network there), can't do dick with the LAN though. | 10:43 |
| diddledan | I'll just leave that there and see if anyone bites | 10:43 |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: ah, region-based firmwares.. eek | 10:44 |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: though I've added serial consoles to all of my TP-Links 8-) | 10:44 |
| TwistedLucidity | MartijnVdS: ? | 10:44 |
| MooDoo | diddledan: my kids would love that :) | 10:44 |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: I have several TP-Link routers, all of which I've flashed with OpenWRT | 10:45 |
| foobarry | run out of maryland cookies...onto the backup biscuits | 10:45 |
| foobarry | bourbons | 10:45 |
| diddledan | MooDoo: it's perfect for bathtime | 10:45 |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: and I've soldered pins onto the serial "holes" so I can recover from bad flashes | 10:45 |
| foobarry | always keep a backup | 10:45 |
| TwistedLucidity | MartijnVds: I meant the "region-based" thing. Why wouldn't they be region based? | 10:45 |
| TwistedLucidity | I bought this Buffalo thinking it was decent kit as, from the docs, it seemed to do everything. | 10:46 |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: Oh, the US version can only access 11 channels, but can send a more powerful signal | 10:46 |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: compared to the EU version, for example | 10:46 |
| TwistedLucidity | Of course, I don't wuite "get" networking so I could well be missing something | 10:46 |
| TwistedLucidity | MartijnVdS: I guess the local regulations differ? | 10:46 |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: they do, and usually that's just a switch in the web interface | 10:47 |
| diddledan | the wifi in the uk is restricted to 100mW max - including any gain from the antenna - if you put a high-gain antenna on you have to reduce the drive by an equivalent amount to remain legal | 10:47 |
| MartijnVdS | diddledan: yeah and 100mW gets you *nowhere* | 10:47 |
| MartijnVdS | we have the same rule in .nl | 10:47 |
| ali1234 | increasing the router power doesn't help the return signal of course. it's pretty much pointless | 10:48 |
| gordonjcp | 100mW ERP | 10:48 |
| gordonjcp | if you have a 10dBi antenna, you still get the same radiated power but ten times gain on receive | 10:48 |
| TwistedLucidity | Well, the signal is fine. It's on the floor below and I have on antenna blasting the lower floor/back garden, the other point up to cover the upper floor. Seems to work. | 10:48 |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: I manage wifi for a caravan park (in a forest) | 10:49 |
| gordonjcp | as an aded bonus if you've got a directional antenna you can often avoid local interference sources | 10:49 |
| MartijnVdS | Leafy trees should be banned. | 10:49 |
| * gordonjcp runs about 5W ERP on 2.4GHz | 10:49 | |
| diddledan | MartijnVdS: I bet you hate the summertime then :-p | 10:49 |
| TwistedLucidity | Over Chrimbo I'll try to prat around with the network ports again. Thing is, there's two telecommuters in this house and the Interent *MUST WORK* all the time. If I break the link, I am in the shit. | 10:49 |
| MartijnVdS | diddledan: we've just added a few extra "cells" of wifi to increase "summer coverage", yes | 10:50 |
| diddledan | gordonjcp: I guess you're not uk-based? | 10:50 |
| gordonjcp | diddledan: yes, I am | 10:50 |
| diddledan | how'd you get the transmit power up to 5W then?! | 10:51 |
| diddledan | that's not fair | 10:51 |
| gordonjcp | power amp | 10:51 |
| diddledan | I want my wifis to be uber, too | 10:51 |
| * diddledan pouts | 10:51 | |
| gordonjcp | occasionally I run about 300W ERP | 10:51 |
| TwistedLucidity | ERP: Echo Rebound Potato? | 10:52 |
| diddledan | equivalent radiated power? | 10:52 |
| gordonjcp | diddledan: yes | 10:53 |
| TwistedLucidity | diddledan: That sounds more like it. But I still like the idea of some kind of mental potato gun transmitter. :-) | 10:53 |
| diddledan | either that or estimated retail price | 10:53 |
| gordonjcp | round at a mate's house I've had a crack at a few tens of kW ERP ;-) | 10:53 |
| diddledan | wow | 10:53 |
| diddledan | yeah, I fancy getting my hands on a GSM base station transmitter and wiring it up to asterisk | 10:54 |
| foobarry | dERP | 10:54 |
| AlanBell | ali1234: I can haz delivery \o/ | 10:54 |
| diddledan | AlanBell: you getting prezzies? | 10:54 |
| gordonjcp | 300W ERP is about 8W into a 18dBi Yagi, with some feeder loss | 10:54 |
| MartijnVdS | gordonjcp: but *why*? :) | 10:55 |
| ali1234 | AlanBell: according to the tracking they tried to deliver it yesterday... not sure i believe that though | 10:55 |
| gordonjcp | MartijnVdS: because I can | 10:55 |
| gordonjcp | MartijnVdS: many kW is for bouncing 2.4GHz off the Moon | 10:55 |
| diddledan | lol | 10:55 |
| diddledan | wifi to australia? | 10:56 |
| gordonjcp | that's four bays of around 23dBi fed with some unholy large amp | 10:56 |
| gordonjcp | diddledan: CW and SSB in this case | 10:56 |
| MartijnVdS | gordonjcp: does it buzz? | 10:56 |
| AlanBell | ali1234: they did, I was out in France | 10:56 |
| ali1234 | AlanBell: so no tax to pay then? | 10:57 |
| AlanBell | £27.58 | 10:57 |
| ali1234 | hmm... that's significantly less than i expected | 10:58 |
| ali1234 | i wonder how they calculated it | 10:58 |
| AlanBell | import vat £16.58, brokerage surcharges £11 | 10:58 |
| AlanBell | value declared was $123.77 | 10:58 |
| ali1234 | wut | 10:58 |
| diddledan | $123 ~= £80? so £27.50 is seriously nasty | 10:59 |
| ali1234 | vat is 20%... deal with it | 10:59 |
| diddledan | oh yeah | 11:00 |
| diddledan | ouch | 11:00 |
| AlanBell | not ouch at all really :) | 11:00 |
| ali1234 | they've put the surcharge up tho, everything i read said £8 | 11:00 |
| TwistedLucidity | AlanBell ali1234 You can avoid the surcharge by paying tax beforehand and then putting the reference on the pack. Or so HMRC told me. | 11:01 |
| ali1234 | TwistedLucidity: the seller has to be able to deal with it though | 11:01 |
| dwatkins | I've never noticed an option like that on any US seller's website. | 11:01 |
| AlanBell | well seeing as the declared value is somewhat lower than we expected it to be then I think we are all good | 11:02 |
| TwistedLucidity | ali1234 They buyer just has to tell the seller what to put where. "Tax paid. Ref 1234" | 11:02 |
| davmor2 | Morning all | 11:03 |
| TwistedLucidity | This certainly applies to UK imports, might not to other territories. Royal Mail will probably chance their arm at the surcharge (esp. now they have been sold at a massive loss) | 11:03 |
| bigcalm | Morning davmor2 | 11:03 |
| ali1234 | TwistedLucidity: yes, plus it would have costed more anyway | 11:03 |
| TwistedLucidity | Lucky. Sometimes it does work out. Guess it depends who you buy from (fleaBay, established exporter, etc) | 11:04 |
| davmor2 | Ohhhhhh Broken sword 5 has landed | 11:04 |
| ali1234 | TwistedLucidity: adafruit. so fairly legit, but normally they just deal with resellers rather than dealing with overseas shipping | 11:05 |
| popey | \o/ nativity++ | 11:06 |
| MooDoo | popey: awww was it good :D | 11:06 |
| TwistedLucidity | ali1234 Prolly just experience then. I was rather surprised how helpful HMRC were when I called them about import codes. | 11:07 |
| ali1234 | HMRC gets a bad rep just because nobody likes being taxed | 11:07 |
| popey | yes but I have the song stuck in my head now | 11:07 |
| ali1234 | they've always been helpful when i have had to deal with them | 11:07 |
| TwistedLucidity | New brake calliper £300, import from USA, air freight, all taxes+charges £200. The UK distributor is having a larf. | 11:08 |
| TwistedLucidity | Got a tax overpayment query sitting with them at the moment...I hope the continue to be helpful. :) | 11:09 |
| foobarry | i got £15 from giffgaff.. | 11:11 |
| MartijnVdS | foobarry: for being a good customer? | 11:11 |
| diddledan | \o/ for freebies | 11:11 |
| foobarry | referrals | 11:12 |
| foobarry | telling ppl how to get cheap tariffs | 11:12 |
| foobarry | some ppl insist on paying £30pm instead of £10 | 11:14 |
| foobarry | NSA reportedly collects 5 billion cell phone location records a day | 11:16 |
| foobarry | safer to just assume that if they can do it, they are | 11:17 |
| TwistedLucidity | foobarry: What's the coverage like? | 11:26 |
| foobarry | O2 network TwistedLucidity | 11:28 |
| foobarry | hence why i moved from t-mobile to gg | 11:30 |
| TwistedLucidity | foobarry: OK...that's who I'm with. Might give them a go next time, but the deal I got on the new phone (with cachbacks, refunds etc) was pretty ridiculous. | 11:30 |
| foobarry | some contract phones are actually good deal sometimes | 11:31 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | big lol: http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BathM5uCUAAwE5p.jpg:large | 11:33 |
| TwistedLucidity | The only downer is that I have the only phone on the planet which Cyanogenmod doesn't support. GAH! | 11:33 |
| foobarry | blackberry market share in china = 0.0% lol | 11:37 |
| Myrtti | oh wow | 11:50 |
| Myrtti | http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/dec/04/jack-monroe-budget-christmas?CMP=twt_gu | 11:50 |
| Myrtti | Jack Monroe \o/ | 11:51 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | "Sprats make a splendid starter." hmmmm. | 11:51 |
| knightwise | Oh sweet bliss of "waiting for a network engineer to get his shit together" | 11:53 |
| bigcalm | !ohmy | knightwise | 11:53 |
| lubotu3 | knightwise: Please remember that all Ubuntu IRC channels share the same attitude of providing friendly and polite interaction with all users of all ages and cultures. Basically, this means no foul language and no abuse towards others. | 11:53 |
| bashrc | I guess that only passive aggression is permitted | 12:00 |
| ali1234 | whatever. | 12:02 |
| diplo | Any recommendations on other file managers than nautilus to give a whirl, thunar any good now ? | 12:06 |
| ali1234 | yeah, thunar is very good now | 12:07 |
| ali1234 | it does have one missing feature: it can't store the view mode per directory | 12:07 |
| ali1234 | other than that it is great | 12:07 |
| diplo | I can deal with that, thanks. | 12:08 |
| Laney | what about fowl language? | 12:11 |
| directhex | bok bok bok | 12:14 |
| popey | 24 hours later, my laptop hasn't overheated once | 12:16 |
| bigcalm | What physical shop can I go to to buy an UPS? My searching is terrible | 12:18 |
| bigcalm | Aha, Maplin | 12:18 |
| popey | maplin | 12:18 |
| MartijnVdS | http://www.estofex.org/cgi-bin/polygon/showforecast.cgi?text=yes&fcstfile=2013120606_201312051139_3_forecastupdate.xml | 12:27 |
| ali1234 | so what direction is that thing going in? | 12:29 |
| ali1234 | because it's really windy here already | 12:29 |
| MartijnVdS | ali1234: it's going east | 12:29 |
| MartijnVdS | ali1234: across the north of the Netherlands, into Germany, Baltic | 12:30 |
| ali1234 | good... already passed over here then | 12:30 |
| MartijnVdS | ali1234: yeah, it killed a lorry driver in Scotland | 12:30 |
| MooDoo | pretty windy here i nottingham too | 12:36 |
| TwistedLucidity | MooDoo: It is, innit? | 12:37 |
| MooDoo | TwistedLucidity: you up here too? | 12:37 |
| TwistedLucidity | MooDoo: I'm down in Notts, yup. | 12:38 |
| * TwistedLucidity views Nottingham as "In the South" | 12:38 | |
| MooDoo | TwistedLucidity: cool, that's a few now, we're taking over the channel ;) where abouts? City Center? | 12:38 |
| TwistedLucidity | MooDoo: LUG meet tonight, you should come along | 12:38 |
| TwistedLucidity | MooDoo: Just West of the city. | 12:39 |
| MooDoo | TwistedLucidity: not been to a LUG meet in years :) | 12:39 |
| MooDoo | TwistedLucidity: Calverton for me :D | 12:39 |
| Laney | bah, this wind and rain | 12:39 |
| Laney | was going to go into town at lunch | 12:39 |
| MooDoo | was it something I said? | 12:39 |
| * Laney is just west of the city too ;-) | 12:39 | |
| Laney | hah | 12:40 |
| popey | I has soup | 12:41 |
| MooDoo | it's curry day in the office today | 12:41 |
| * Laney will man up and bike through it | 12:41 | |
| MooDoo | Laney: my sister is driving me home :D | 12:41 |
| Laney | nice | 12:42 |
| * TheOpenSourcerer just had Spanish chicken and rice from the van. It was nice - but I need MOAR! | 12:44 | |
| directhex | today is ryvita & cheese spread. yum | 12:47 |
| TwistedLucidity | That was nasty - system crash :( | 12:48 |
| MooDoo | TwistedLucidity: lol thought i'd scared you off :D | 12:50 |
| TwistedLucidity | Nah, whole machine borked mid-update. Had to SSH in and force a restart when it was done. | 12:50 |
| MooDoo | welcome back.... | 12:51 |
| TwistedLucidity | MooDoo: Yer a wee bitty further out than me | 12:51 |
| MooDoo | cool :) we'll all have to meet up for an ubuntu hour in town lol | 12:51 |
| MooDoo | and meet up for the global jam in april :D | 12:52 |
| TwistedLucidity | MooDoo there was one last year (I think) at the Roundhouse. A few folks there. | 12:52 |
| MooDoo | nice :D | 12:52 |
| popey | BIG SOUP + Roll | 13:01 |
| TwistedLucidity | Herb encrusted goats cheese + serrano ham + whole grain mustard in homemade sunflower seed bread. Do I win? | 13:04 |
| popey | yes | 13:04 |
| Myrtti | BUT ONLY FOR NOW | 13:10 |
| foobarry | slow cooked beef casserole and spaghetti | 13:10 |
| MooDoo | Tender diced lamb or chicken cooked with onion, peppers, tomatoes & Pakistani herbs. Garnished with fresh coriander & garam masala | 13:11 |
| foobarry | home cooked or tesco? mine was home made | 13:11 |
| MooDoo | foobarry: local curry house lol | 13:12 |
| Myrtti | we've tried our new multicooker twice now, once for deep frying and once for making rice | 13:12 |
| Myrtti | should really try something new with it | 13:12 |
| foobarry | is it the same as a slow cooker? | 13:12 |
| foobarry | ah, thats one of 8 functions | 13:13 |
| foobarry | nice | 13:13 |
| foobarry | just chuck a lamb leg in with some seasoning..yum | 13:13 |
| TwistedLucidity | Just had to run outside to pin some covers back down. That was a pretty horrible experience. | 13:14 |
| Myrtti | yeah, D put some money on getting a Codlo and needed to get a new slow cooker as the old one was a digital that needed to be turned on from a button | 13:14 |
| Myrtti | so when it was on lightning deals last week we got one | 13:14 |
| foobarry | i might try slow cooking some haribo | 13:15 |
| foobarry | lunchtime news is so depressing | 13:16 |
| dogmatic69 | lol, virgin media is subject to XSS | 13:16 |
| TwistedLucidity | dogmatic69: ??? | 13:16 |
| MartijnVdS | cross-site scripting | 13:16 |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5l9lSnNMxg | 13:17 |
| dogmatic69 | correct. | 13:17 |
| TwistedLucidity | MartijnVdS: I know what XSS is! :) I wanted to know in what way VM was vulnerable. | 13:17 |
| TwistedLucidity | i.e. linky? | 13:17 |
| TwistedLucidity | As in - link to news article? | 13:18 |
| dogmatic69 | what news article? | 13:18 |
| foobarry | "Almost 600 under-16s take up smoking every day in the UK" :( | 13:18 |
| dogmatic69 | its the chat system | 13:18 |
| directhex | foobarry, well, it *is* cool | 13:19 |
| TwistedLucidity | dogmatic69: So it's their live chat thing? | 13:19 |
| dogmatic69 | yes | 13:19 |
| diddledan | foobarry: they take it up every day? as in the 600 under-16s keep quitting so they can take it up the next day anew? | 13:20 |
| TwistedLucidity | dogmatic69: Did VM send you an alert or something? (I'm also a VM customer, so interested in this) | 13:20 |
| dogmatic69 | TwistedLucidity: no, I am also customer. Was on supprt trying to get help and was taking long so got bored | 13:21 |
| dogmatic69 | inspecting the source and found it | 13:22 |
| TwistedLucidity | dogmatic69: >ow< | 13:22 |
| diddledan | dogmatic69: send it to full-disclosure | 13:22 |
| TwistedLucidity | You may want to tell them. Carefully. | 13:22 |
| TwistedLucidity | I found a website a while back where I could change their prices when ordering. I didn't order anything and I didn't tell them (figured I'd wind up on the wrong side of the law if I did) | 13:23 |
| foobarry | diddledan: Questionnaires were completed by 6519 children in 219 schools. And by comparing the numbers of current smokers- with smoking rates among the same age band surveyed the previous year, the researchers were able to estimate the numbers of new teens who took up smoking in 2010-11 in the UK—207,000. | 13:23 |
| TwistedLucidity | After reading about someone getting the jail for simply changing a URL a few years ago in the UK, seems they'd rather punish the messenger | 13:25 |
| foobarry | i wonder if e-cigs were inclued in that | 13:25 |
| MartijnVdS | they should be | 13:25 |
| TwistedLucidity | dogmatic69: Not just the chat system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NaJ8_eNtS4 | 13:26 |
| foobarry | MartijnVdS: do e-cigs lead to the burning variety? | 13:29 |
| MartijnVdS | foobarry: I think so. Also, they've found e-cig smoke to contain carcinogens as well | 13:31 |
| foobarry | isn't it pure vaporised nicotine? | 13:31 |
| MartijnVdS | no | 13:31 |
| foobarry | too simple i suppose | 13:32 |
| dogmatic69 | MartijnVdS: only when people use too much power and it burns | 13:32 |
| dogmatic69 | foobarry: pure nicotine is highly toxic | 13:35 |
| foobarry | Analysis of nicotine patches has shown that they contain tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNAs), known cancer-causing agents, in quantities of up to 173ng per patch | 13:36 |
| foobarry | not sure if good or bad | 13:36 |
| TwistedLucidity | Everything causes cancer, even oxygen | 13:38 |
| foobarry | who are you, daily mail> | 13:39 |
| dwatkins | foobarry: the patches are less bad than smoking, I imagine, for various reasons. | 13:41 |
| dwatkins | As you approach the ripe old age of 100, your chances of getting cancer probably increase significantly, considering it's a result of errors in cell division from what I understand, so being alive "causes" cancer in that case. | 13:42 |
| foobarry | i guess if you're on patches/e-cigs then you're trying to quit anyway | 13:43 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | NEWSFLASH you are all going to die sometime. | 13:43 |
| Myrtti | 3Doodler \o/ | 13:43 |
| dwatkins | foobarry: indeed, and I am | 13:43 |
| diddledan | WHAT?! | 13:43 |
| Myrtti | Doodle all the things! | 13:43 |
| diddledan | WHEN?? | 13:43 |
| dwatkins | TheOpenSourcerer: weeeeeeelllll, not necessarily | 13:43 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | dwatkins: Oh yeah? Prove it ;-) | 13:43 |
| dwatkins | I've heard plausible arguments that we may have the technology to become effectively immortal soon. | 13:43 |
| dogmatic69 | TheOpenSourcerer: WHAT?!?!?!?! | 13:44 |
| foobarry | sometimes you get SMART errors first, and sometimesyou die without backups or warning | 13:44 |
| dwatkins | I said plausible, not that I have proof. | 13:44 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | When I look at what getting *really* old does to people I have no intention of making it to that stage. | 13:44 |
| diddledan | TheOpenSourcerer: euthenasia? | 13:45 |
| MooDoo | TheOpenSourcerer: you'll never be old....botox ;) | 13:45 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Nope - but O do not subscribe to the "lets do everything healthy sdo we live longer" brigade. | 13:45 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | *O/I | 13:45 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | I've nearly done 50 years already so I consider that a bit of a win frankly :-D | 13:46 |
| MooDoo | TheOpenSourcerer: chilli health drinks | 13:46 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Everything else is a bonus so I might as well enjoy myself. | 13:46 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Chillies, cigars, alcohol, golf, curry... | 13:47 |
| MartijnVdS | Golf is deadly now? | 13:47 |
| MooDoo | MartijnVdS: oh yes, if you're standing around me when I play :D | 13:47 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | At my old club a bloke lost an eye. | 13:47 |
| TwistedLucidity | MartijnVdS: Lightning strike | 13:47 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Ball carrered into his buggy and took his eye out. | 13:47 |
| MooDoo | FOURteen broken ribs :d | 13:47 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Well squashed it actually but you get the idea | 13:48 |
| MartijnVdS | TheOpenSourcerer: uh oh.. I might have to re-plan my running route | 13:48 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Golf balls are very hard and travel rather fast. | 13:48 |
| MartijnVdS | it crosses the local golf course | 13:48 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Although if you watch this you might think they are rather soft... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1284051/Incredible-slow-motion-picture-golf-ball-flattens-hits-steel-plate-150mph.html | 13:49 |
| dogmatic69 | TheOpenSourcerer: not that hard... http://www.datgif.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/golf-ball-slow-motion-impact.gif | 13:49 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | yeah | 13:50 |
| foobarry | one good reason to quit eon energy is that you get locked out for 15 mins after getting the password wrong ONCE | 14:18 |
| dogmatic69 | lol | 14:19 |
| foobarry | then i give up | 14:19 |
| foobarry | wifey just bought me a jumper from h&m | 14:19 |
| foobarry | had to tell her it wasn't really my style | 14:19 |
| foobarry | she was disappoint | 14:19 |
| bashrc | this is why it's not usually a good idea to buy people clothes for christmas | 14:20 |
| dwatkins | you could give it to a local homeless shelter, foobarry - although if it's from Abercrombie & Fitch, bear this in mind: http://www.relevantmagazine.com/reject-apathy/poverty/why-fitchthehomeless-backfires | 14:23 |
| Simon____ | Hello | 14:34 |
| daftykins | hi | 14:34 |
| Simon____ | Sorry, new here, just want to know more about ubuntu? | 14:35 |
| MartijnVdS | you've come to the right place :) | 14:35 |
| marxjohnson | Simon____: You've come to the right place! | 14:35 |
| marxjohnson | gah, beaten to it! | 14:35 |
| dogmatic69 | Simon____: prob best to get some specific questions as its huge :) | 14:36 |
| MooDoo | beat me to that too | 14:36 |
| Simon____ | Tremendous, I believe its a general philosphy of a moneyless society everyone contributing to the overall wellbeing of the community? | 14:36 |
| marxjohnson | Simon____: Yes, but this channel is about the Operating System really :) | 14:37 |
| marxjohnson | Simon____: http://ubuntu.com | 14:37 |
| foobarry | but we are nice to each other too | 14:37 |
| Simon____ | Oh, what does that mean? | 14:38 |
| MooDoo | people like the freeness of it, the ability to change anyting within the os if they feel the need, the community etc | 14:38 |
| Simon____ | So more of an online community than a physical one? | 14:38 |
| MooDoo | you have to remember that we are all in diffeent parts of the country and world, so it's not practical to meetup but we do have RL meetups :D | 14:39 |
| Simon____ | No, i understand. It's just that i thought it was more of a philosphical discussion than a technical one | 14:40 |
| MooDoo | sounds like you're more into this than me, I just use the darn os ;) | 14:41 |
| Simon____ | Ha, ok so what do you talk about generally? | 14:41 |
| marxjohnson | Simon____: There are philosophical aspects, especially if you want to talk about the Free Software movement, but generally the people here are just using the Ubuntu OS and associated software | 14:41 |
| TwistedLucidity | Ubuntu is the vanguard of the Canonical agenda. *dons tin-foil hat* :-P | 14:42 |
| MooDoo | Simon____: anything and everything withing reason, this is a publically logged channel | 14:42 |
| diddledan | publically logged, so if you make a eejit of yourself it's save for future posterity :-p | 14:43 |
| Simon____ | I see, I'm guess i'm more used to forums where there are seperate threads for whatever. | 14:43 |
| daftykins | we're building a great "history of diddledan" right now | 14:43 |
| MooDoo | yeah here mostly anything goes | 14:43 |
| marxjohnson | Simon____: Try ubuntuforums.org or discourse.ubuntu.com for threaded discussion | 14:44 |
| diddledan | daftykins: I try my best | 14:44 |
| popey | we also talk about cats | 14:44 |
| popey | and chilli | 14:44 |
| popey | and beer | 14:44 |
| popey | and knitting | 14:44 |
| Simon____ | But yeah, definately agree with free software | 14:44 |
| marxjohnson | mm beer | 14:44 |
| diddledan | kitties!!!!!! | 14:44 |
| MooDoo | Simon____: easiest thing to do is hang around see how you go, we're all friendly | 14:45 |
| diddledan | cats are the bestest | 14:45 |
| Simon____ | ok thanx marxjohnson and everbody else | 14:45 |
| * popey wonders if Simon____ is the same Simon who just posted to the mailing list | 14:45 | |
| Simon____ | yeah will do | 14:45 |
| TwistedLucidity | Simon____: Some of the more FSF/GNU channels may be more about the ethos of Free Software. | 14:45 |
| diddledan | MooDoo: except me when I'm in a sarcastic mood | 14:45 |
| TwistedLucidity | diddledan: All the time, then? | 14:45 |
| diddledan | TwistedLucidity: pretty much | 14:45 |
| diddledan | TwistedLucidity: I don't really have downtime | 14:46 |
| diddledan | 99.95% SLA on sarcasm here | 14:46 |
| popey | I think Simon____ was more alluding to the "Ubuntu philosophy" in general, not the one we think of | 14:47 |
| popey | given his mentions of moneyless society | 14:47 |
| directhex | COMMUNISM | 14:48 |
| diddledan | bring back the USSR | 14:49 |
| Simon____ | Yes, Misdirected by google it seems! | 14:49 |
| popey | \o/ bitcoins ☻ | 14:51 |
| TwistedLucidity | popey How much are they worth now? 2 continents? | 14:52 |
| popey | they dropped under 1000USD and are probably back up by now | 14:52 |
| popey | yeah, ~$1012 | 14:52 |
| TwistedLucidity | Accoridng ot oanda, 1BTC==USA$1,109 | 14:52 |
| popey | oh yes | 14:53 |
| diddledan | ooh, they finially breached the 1k mark | 14:53 |
| MartijnVdS | diddledan: a few weeks ago already | 14:53 |
| MartijnVdS | though it was at 900 again this morning.. | 14:53 |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: http://bitcoinity.org/markets | 14:53 |
| * TwistedLucidity looks up the word "arbitrage". Ponders. | 14:54 | |
| MartijnVdS | TwistedLucidity: an "arbiter" is what a referee is sometimes called in Dutch football matches :) | 14:55 |
| TwistedLucidity | Doe 4od work for anyone? It used to for me, but now it doesn't | 14:56 |
| TwistedLucidity | iPlayer still fine | 14:56 |
| marxjohnson | TwistedLucidity: hasn't worked for me for a long time. Lots of 4OD progammes are on YouTube, which does work | 15:00 |
| TwistedLucidity | face/palm. I keep forgetting that | 15:00 |
| popey | annoyingly 4OD on iPad now forces an upgrade of the app or it wont start | 15:00 |
| popey | but I can't update it because the new one is IOS 6 only, and my iPad is IOS 5 ☹ | 15:01 |
| daftykins | the great Apple chop! | 15:01 |
| daftykins | i've been upgrading a clients mid 2010 MBP to Mavericks today | 15:01 |
| daftykins | just this afternoon she'd been looking at a program that requires Lion as a minimum - due to being on Snow Leopard previously that was going to be a no! | 15:02 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Telcos do arbitrage | 15:08 |
| TwistedLucidity | daftykins: Is the upgrade easy enough? I'd like to see if it fixees the g/f's MBP. | 15:12 |
| daftykins | fixes? what happened to it? | 15:12 |
| daftykins | well, i don't believe in OS upgrades - so i made up a USB flash drive and nuked the system :D | 15:12 |
| daftykins | then i pulled in the user data only from the time machine backup | 15:12 |
| TwistedLucidity | daftykins: Safari sucks. Pauses for about 30 seconds - 1 min on first load. Then on about every 5th page load. Chrome is a bit better, but not great. | 15:13 |
| daftykins | i wanted as few remnants of the old install as possible, including reinstalling Office | 15:13 |
| TwistedLucidity | Kubuntu in a VM runs like a champ | 15:13 |
| daftykins | is that Safari on OS X playing up? | 15:13 |
| daftykins | er oops *mavericks | 15:13 |
| TwistedLucidity | daftykins: Yes. OS X 10.5.something or other | 15:14 |
| daftykins | Mavericks is 10.9 | 15:14 |
| TwistedLucidity | I can't recall the exact version, but it claims it can upgrade to Mavericks | 15:14 |
| daftykins | the annoying thing is you need 10.7 or 10.8 to make a working USB flash drive for a proper clean install | 15:15 |
| TwistedLucidity | It might be 10.7 for all I know. Not my laptop so I try not to take to do with it, other than offer advice. | 15:15 |
| daftykins | but thankfully i have VMs of those :D | 15:15 |
| MooDoo | AlanBell: that's one heck of a beer fridge :) | 15:21 |
| dwatkins | AlanBell: congrats on the Pi project :) | 15:21 |
| dwatkins | does it have a name yet? | 15:21 |
| popey | http://lamborghininewportbeach.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/we-just-sold-our-very-first-vehicle.html | 15:21 |
| popey | someone bought a tesla with bitcoin | 15:21 |
| bashrc | was it Satoshi? | 15:22 |
| MartijnVdS | bashrc: nobody knows | 15:23 |
| diplo | popey: Do you know who does the badvoltage web stuff ? | 15:24 |
| diplo | is it sil ? | 15:24 |
| popey | yes | 15:24 |
| diplo | ah, just got an error with a plugin, will keep an eye out for him to come back in | 15:24 |
| AlanBell | dwatkins: no name yet | 15:26 |
| dwatkins | I called my Raspberry Pi with two monitors "raspberrytau" | 15:26 |
| popey | AlanBell: do you still need crimp tool / bits? | 15:42 |
| AlanBell | I found some bits, I am thinking of redesigning it a bit so I don't need to cut/crimp cables because it is a fiddly and annoying task | 15:45 |
| directhex | another steam box announced. http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/m/mono/mono_3.2.3+dfsg-4.dsc | 15:48 |
| directhex | gah | 15:48 |
| directhex | http://hexus.net/tech/news/systems/63349-piixl-jetpack-steam-machine-announced/ | 15:48 |
| daftykins | hexus still going. | 15:48 |
| directhex | apparently | 15:52 |
| daftykins | ;) | 15:52 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | directhex: DO NOT SHOW THAT TO MY KIDS | 16:04 |
| daftykins | TheOpenSourcerer: what's the worst that could happen? :D | 16:05 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | £600??? | 16:05 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Kids spend less time doing *useful* things | 16:05 |
| dvrr | Initialization Sequence Completed With Errors openvpn client windows 7 how to resolve please help me | 16:06 |
| dvrr | ubuntu client it's work | 16:06 |
| popey | blimey, windier than I thought http://imgur.com/vkQKi7k | 16:24 |
| bigcalm | It's a touch blustery over here | 16:26 |
| === rubydev is now known as simonlamb | ||
| davmor2 | popey: ouch | 16:32 |
| diplo | I've lost a fence panel at lunch time :/ | 16:32 |
| diplo | Died right off again now though | 16:33 |
| bigcalm | I wonder if Linux Voice will make their target | 16:47 |
| popey | hope so | 16:48 |
| bigcalm | I say latest, was last week's edition I guess | 16:49 |
| bigcalm | Wonder how many subs they have received via uupc | 16:50 |
| diplo | I will sub once I've worked out if I can afford it or not with Xmas :) | 16:51 |
| TwistedLucidity | I am thinking of subbing when I get back...depending on how all the bills land. | 17:04 |
| TwistedLucidity | I may have to cancel a certain other sub.... | 17:06 |
| daftykins | ooh-err this Mavericks upgrade seems to not work well with the WD My Book NAS we have for Time Machine backups | 17:07 |
| daftykins | looks like a new NAS might have to be acquired just to work with Mavericks =/ | 17:08 |
| TwistedLucidity | daftykins: Whut? That seems rather....odd..... | 17:09 |
| daftykins | yeah it's quite quirky | 17:10 |
| === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte | ||
| popey | i ended up wiping both macs and installing mavericks clean | 17:17 |
| daftykins | that's how i've re-done this MBP | 17:19 |
| daftykins | although it's able to pull the backup off the time machine NAS - but i'm not very happy with the results | 17:19 |
| daftykins | i think i'll just copy and paste the user's data onto a backup drive, re-do the system as clean as possible then paste the data back on | 17:19 |
| daftykins | that way i get no legacy issues from the old snow leopard install | 17:19 |
| daftykins | but this NAS definitely seems to have had its' day | 17:20 |
| daftykins | it's working, but you have to trick it into letting you use it as a backup device, then it absolutely crawls | 17:20 |
| daftykins | it did maybe 300MB in half an hour | 17:20 |
| daftykins | popey: did you have issues with initial upgrade installs, or just didn't feel like it? | 17:49 |
| daftykins | https://www.dropbox.com/s/v5mwygag3ae7ovl/IMG_20131205_173712.jpg | 17:59 |
| daftykins | town lights are on in Guernsey | 17:59 |
| bigcalm | Current desktop background, I love variety: http://wallbase.cc/wallpaper/457019 | 18:19 |
| MartijnVdS | nice one | 18:19 |
| bigcalm | Is it possible to search a git repo to find the commit that 1st introduced a variable into my code? | 18:21 |
| MartijnVdS | there's git blame for who touched it last | 18:23 |
| MartijnVdS | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1337320/how-to-grep-git-commits-for-a-certain-word | 18:23 |
| bigcalm | Not sure the variable name will be in the log | 18:23 |
| * bigcalm guesses the branch :) | 18:24 | |
| MartijnVdS | bigcalm: log -Sword also searches contents | 18:24 |
| MartijnVdS | or -Gword | 18:24 |
| MartijnVdS | bigcalm: http://gitfu.wordpress.com/2008/06/03/the-pickaxe-finding-changes-was-never-easier/ | 18:24 |
| bigcalm | Oh, ta | 18:25 |
| bigcalm | Haha, the variable was in a commit log! | 18:26 |
| MartijnVdS | *\o/* | 18:26 |
| popey | daftykins: i had an issue with one yes | 19:03 |
| diddledan | isn't a targ a form of creature? in which case I'm assuming targz is the plural? | 19:08 |
| MartijnVdS | diddledan: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Targ | 19:08 |
| diddledan | gotchabob | 19:09 |
| shauno | things like this make me wonder how much else in the news is entirely fictional; http://metro.co.uk/2013/12/04/romanian-farmville-gang-con-400000-from-government-with-fake-farms-4215956/ | 21:37 |
| shauno | seen it reported in a few places, they've all done the same thing. mis-translated "fictional cows" as "virtual cows", and then invented the rest | 21:39 |
| diddledan | shauno: they link to http://metro.co.uk/2010/04/07/farmville-user-hit-with-900-bill-playing-the-popular-facebook-game-225371/ | 22:00 |
| diddledan | shauno: how did his account, first exist because he's under 13, and second have a valid credit card associated | 22:00 |
| daftykins | bad parenting | 22:01 |
| shauno | "and 288 of his own" .. what kinda 12yo has 288 quid laying around? | 22:02 |
| daftykins | one that saves up a lot | 22:03 |
| diddledan | lol : "Recently Bulgarian councillor Dimitar Kerin, a member of the Plovdiv Municipal Committee, was removed from a key committee because he couldn’t resist milking his FarmVille cows during important meetings." | 22:05 |
| diddledan | I wonder how much of that was mistranslated/made up | 22:05 |
| Myrtti | in case someone here is living in a bottle, Nelson Mandela has passed away | 22:14 |
| diddledan | the movie is perfectly timed to capitalise on the press coverage then | 22:15 |
| diddledan | has south africa imploded yet? | 22:15 |
| zleap | Myrtti just read that on the bbc news site | 22:20 |
| daftykins | wow flybe are really withdrawing from the Channel Islands | 22:25 |
| daftykins | they're closing everything and axeing a lot of routes | 22:25 |
| mapps | why? | 22:25 |
| daftykins | cutting costs | 22:26 |
| mapps | everywhere and everything cutting costs and jobs;/ | 22:26 |
| daftykins | indeedy | 22:28 |
| daftykins | i hope it doesn't increase cost to get to England | 22:28 |
| mapps | lfights are incredibly cheap across europe atm | 22:29 |
| mapps | so i guess it's to be expected either flights go up or they cut routes/jobs | 22:29 |
| mapps | like that nonsense about customers being able to sue if flights are over a certain amount late..well ..great people will sue..airlines put prices up to recoup those costs..people moan? | 22:29 |
| daftykins | people always find new ways to moan :D | 22:30 |
| daftykins | uh-oh am i doing it now D: | 22:30 |
| mapps | heh | 22:30 |
| mapps | im happy with how flights are atm | 22:30 |
| mapps | my flight to CZ was on time way there..early way back to Manchester | 22:31 |
| daftykins | but yeah Channel Island flights are the most expensive in the world per mile, apparently | 22:31 |
| mapps | ah | 22:31 |
| mapps | ;/ | 22:31 |
| mapps | I paid like 300 quid for my flights to Holland and back including Hotel..dirt cheap | 22:31 |
| mapps | when you think it costs me 60+ for one way to Euston if i get a ticket same day | 22:31 |
| daftykins | how long did you stay? | 22:31 |
| mapps | not gone yet..only staying 3 nights (4 days) arrive 1pm friday leave 21;40 monday | 22:32 |
| shauno | flights are pretty ridiculous most places now. what we really need next is a budget hotel revolution | 22:33 |
| map | my ticket from Stoke -stu | 22:34 |
| === map is now known as Guest32151 | ||
| Guest32151 | argh | 22:34 |
| Guest32151 | stupid router | 22:34 |
| Guest32151 | mapps> not gone yet..only staying 3 nights (4 days) arrive 1pm friday leave 21;40 monday | 22:34 |
| Guest32151 | damnit | 22:34 |
| Guest32151 | s | 22:35 |
| === Guest32151 is now known as mappps | ||
| mappps | compare it to a train ticket 20 quid stoke-> manchester fligts are great value 60 quid or something to fly to Holland? | 22:35 |
| daftykins | if you book late it'll cost you £70 to get to Guernsey >_< | 22:38 |
| mappps | is Jersey chanel islands? | 22:39 |
| daftykins | yeah, it's south-east of me | 22:40 |
| mappps | yea i knew someone who lived there..company he worked for were there i think | 22:41 |
| daftykins | :) | 22:47 |
| daftykins | Jersey's more like little England though | 22:47 |
| daftykins | not true island life, heritage and culture like Guernsey | 22:48 |
| daftykins | ;D | 22:48 |
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